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Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Seems the gloves are off:

"(The 777x)'s going to obsolete the A350-1000 before the A350-1000 is even delivered."
-- Boeing Vice-President of Business Development and Strategic Integration Nicole Piasecki

That's a pretty strong statement to be making, IMHO.

Is it all bluster to hide the fact that the 777X seems to not be coming out on the timeline that the former Boeing exec Jim Albaugh suggested?

Even our a.net arch villian Richard Aboulafia refers to this as "backpeddling", and wonders if Boeing is just saying this to support the presumed decision to wait on the 777X:

In a August letter, Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia refers to what he calls Boeing's "backpedalling", saying: "Boeing maintains that the 777-300ER is as good, if not better, than the A350-1000, and therefore, it can delay the 777X. The 777-300ER may be a superb plane, but the market still prefers newer models."

Personally, it's clear to me that the 777W will be undermined by the A351, and there's no reason to expect that the 777X will "make the A351 obsolete" and that the 777X is being delayed because of the massive hits to the bottom line being taken to get the various 787 derivatives and the MAX out the door.

In other words, talk is cheap!

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...x-end-decade-service-entry-376096/
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
"(The 777x)'s going to obsolete the A350-1000 before the A350-1000 is even delivered."
-- Boeing Vice-President of Business Development and Strategic Integration Nicole Piasecki

Does this man really think that airlines executives are stupid or what? You can talk like this to supermarket customers, not to CEO's of airlines... ( Iassume the message was to them since they have to buy the planes)
 
Daysleeper
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:43 pm

Just me, or does this make them look rather pathetic, desperate even?

Do they honestly expect people to believe that a warmed up 30 year old design is going to make a brand new state of the art one obsolete? Competitive it maybe, but better... no way.
 
packsonflight
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:00 pm

They also said that the 737NG was 2% better than the NEO before they finally rushed to the drawing board to create the MAX
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Is it all bluster to hide the fact that the 777X seems to not be coming out on the timeline that the former Boeing exec Jim Albaugh suggested?

It can't be. Nobody's trying to hide that...Boeing themselves same right out and said it.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Does this man really think that airlines executives are stupid or what?

Nicole is a woman.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
You can talk like this to supermarket customers, not to CEO's of airlines...

Slightly in Nicole's defense, several high profile airline CEO's think nothing of talking to all of the OEM's this way. A race to the bottom is sad to see but at least the OEM's didn't start the race.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Do they honestly expect people to believe that a warmed up 30 year old design is going to make a brand new state of the art one obsolete?

How did we come up with the 777 being a 30 year old design? At absolute best, it's 23 years old (and that's for a model that's no longer in production). Even with rounding, you can't get there from here.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Just me, or does this make them look rather pathetic, desperate even?

I'm sure it's not just you, but I don't get the vibe of pathetic or desperate, I get the vibe of going way over to the hyperbole side of aircraft marketing...this is a place we've been before. This is just the mirror of Leahy's early comments about the original A330 vs. 787.

Tom.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
This is just the mirror of Leahy's early comments about the original A330 vs. 787.

  

And that just about wraps up the necessary commentary on this thread...

rgds
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 5):

Agreed, but I think I'm getting some popcorn... this is going to be a fun thread to watch unless it gets locked...   
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Just me, or does this make them look rather pathetic, desperate even?

It's just you.  

And it's marketing.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:36 pm

Both companies have a history of making comments similar to this. Airbus had the comment about the original A350 and I'm sure a few others. Boeing has this one, various comments they've made about the 748i/A380 and my personal favourite, the supposed 737NG fuel burn advantage over the A320NEO.

It doesn't really achieve much other than getting their name in the media.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 3):
They also said that the 737NG was 2% better than the NEO before they finally rushed to the drawing board to create the MAX

The same thought crossed my head when I was reading the article.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
It can't be. Nobody's trying to hide that...Boeing themselves same right out and said it.

Of course that's true, even us dweebs on a.net know about it, so it would have been safe to presume that I didn't mean "hide" in the literal sense, I meant it in the sense of "to obscure" or "to draw one's attention way from". However you are a technologist like me, so you are forgiven!  
Quoting astuteman (Reply 5):
And that just about wraps up the necessary commentary on this thread...

In other words, there is no conceivable way that the 777X with EIS of December 31st, 2019 at 23:59 will render the A350-1000 obsolete?
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):

How did we come up with the 777 being a 30 year old design? At absolute best, it's 23 years old (and that's for a model that's no longer in production). Even with rounding, you can't get there from here.

Which would be corect if the 77X was available now.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Nicole Piasecki's comments are not aimed at airline executives. They're aimed at the general public and the purpose of the statement is to keep them confident as it relates to owning or buying Boeing stock.  

And the general public have no idea the 777 will be 30 years old in 2020.



Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Is it all bluster to hide the fact that the 777X seems to not be coming out on the timeline that the former Boeing exec Jim Albaugh suggested?

If EK and QR really want the 777X by 2017, all they have to do is each place an order for 50.  Smile

[Edited 2012-09-06 12:48:14]
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:46 pm

As Mr. Spock might say, Boeing does not bluster.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 10):
Which would be corect if the 77X was available now.

But we measure age of a design by the age of the design...not by availability. The 787 is a ~8 year old design, not a 1 year old design.

Tom.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 5):
And that just about wraps up the necessary commentary on this thread...

Indeed. And that says it all.  
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:12 pm

I dunno. Combined with the rumors that have surfaced here and what I read between the lines in the "747-8 Special Edition of Lufthansa Magazin" I think Boeing and Lufthansa are cooking something up. The Magazin keeps referring to a special (50-year) relationship and I personally think there is more to come. Whether DLH is the launch customer for the 787-10 or something else...time will tell.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
That's a pretty strong statement to be making, IMHO.

I'm guessing that the Boeing exec might be a Boeing fangirl? I'm sure she's not biased in any way...

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Does this man

Nicole Piasecki is probably not a man.

But it is Seattle, so anything is possible.   

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Do they honestly expect people to believe that a warmed up 30 year old design is going to make a brand new state of the art one obsolete? Competitive it maybe, but better... no way.

I'll point out that the 737 is well over 30 years old and it's doing very well. What truly makes an aircraft efficient is the engines. The 77X will have newer engines than the A350. The Trent XWB has been in flight tests for some time now. The 77X's engines haven't even been officially named yet, they're so state-of-the-art!

And let's not forget that the 777 is not exactly a relic. At the time it was designed, airframe design and aircraft systems design were very mature technologies, so they don't tend to go obsolete as quickly as you'd think. And remember that the A350 has a conventional systems architecture, just like the 777.

With a new wing, the main difference between the 77X and A350 will be in the fuselage construction material, which winds up not being a *huge* factor.

I'm not saying that the 77X will blow the A350 out of the water. But it also will definitely have its advantages over the A350 in certain market segments and with certain carriers that operate 777's currently.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:22 pm

PR trash talk. Gotta love it when the sales team from both sides start doing that. They feel like small time salesmen pitching a new brand of canned sausages to Walmart.

Especially when talking about two airplanes which aren't even close to being built.

If only we could hear more from the engineers than from the marketing idiots from A and B... I guess we don't live in that world anymore.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 15):
I dunno. Combined with the rumors that have surfaced here and what I read between the lines in the "747-8 Special Edition of Lufthansa Magazin" I think Boeing and Lufthansa are cooking something up. The Magazin keeps referring to a special (50-year) relationship and I personally think there is more to come. Whether DLH is the launch customer for the 787-10 or something else...time will tell.

Maybe Lufthansa will buy some 777s !!   
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:23 pm

Slightly off topic, but it is strange that Tim Clarke is pushing so hard to get a 777X delivery date. Flight global states that Emirates wants to start retiring their 77W in 2017. Considering that Emirates received their first 77W in 2004 the oldest would be at most 13 years old. Wouldn't they want to retire the 772 or A340's first?

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
"(The 777x)'s going to obsolete the A350-1000 before the A350-1000 is even delivered."

I'll believe it when I see it  
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 18):
Maybe Lufthansa will buy some 777s!!     

Their cargo arm already has.  
Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 19):
Slightly off topic, but it is strange that Tim Clarke is pushing so hard to get a 777X delivery date. Flight global states that Emirates wants to start retiring their 77W in 2017. Considering that Emirates received their first 77W in 2004 the oldest would be at most 13 years old. Wouldn't they want to retire the 772 or A340's first?

EK seems to prefer a 12-year term for their sale and leasebacks of A380-800s and 777-300ERs. I do not know if EK has done this with early 777-300ER deliveries, but if they have, those terms may be expiring around 2017 and EK may prefer to not have to extend them.

The A350-900 will handle 777-200, 777-200ER and A340-300 retirements. Some of the older 777-300ERs may replace the 777-300s.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 17):
If only we could hear more from the engineers than from the marketing idiots from A and B... I guess we don't live in that world anymore.

Nicole Piasecki is an engineer by training and was an engineer at Boeing:
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...aboutus/execprofiles/piasecki.html

Tom.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
But it is Seattle, so anything is possible.

With her title, dontcha mean Chicago? Or is all of BCA in WA?

[Edited 2012-09-06 17:47:35]
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:10 am

Boeing Commercial Airplanes is still headquartered in Seattle, WA.

Chicago is Boeing's World Headquarters.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:26 am

Isn't sales trash talk fun? If any of these sales guys said anything other than their product was the best, I'd fire them.

Just like it's up to ma and pa to wade through all the "I'm the bestest ever", to decide which econobox is the best, it's up to the airlines to ignore the sales noise and judge for themselves what is best for them based on specs, price, financing or whatever criteria floats their boats.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Boeing maintains that the 777-300ER is as good, if not better, than the A350-1000

I suppose the term "as good" can be used loosely.

The A350-1000 should have a 12% DOW advantage, which should translate into at least a 10% fuel mileage advantage. Add in a slightly higher seating capacity ~ 4% and the A350-1000 is going to have the upper hand.

But, it will be interesting to see the long term strategy by Boeing. I'm sure they know the 777-300ER dominance will end, but they will have had a nice +10yr run. Not bad results for a stretched derivative.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 18):
Maybe Lufthansa will buy some 777s !!

LH Cargo will have five 777F delivered starting 2013; these will replace some of their MD11"s.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
This is just the mirror of Leahy's early comments about the original A330 vs. 787.

Indeed.
Though I suspect those who lambasted Leahy for similar comments will either avoid the thread entirely or defend this Executive's comments.

[Edited 2012-09-06 19:15:49]
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:06 am

It is almost all about the engines, the projected 777X ones would have almost 50% higher compression ratios (to use auto speak) then the 350-1000 TXWB, so the 777X if and when it get's of the drawing board would be no slouch. But then new products are at their peak when they fly of the ppt, then they get bogged down by reality, delays and not the least that the competitor does not stand still either.

The latter is best exemplified by the RR TXWB vs RR T1000. The TXWB has the "worlds best TSFC" due to being later in design then the T1000 ("rising line" compressor among other things). Guess who will have a rising line compressor all of a sudden? The T1000-TEN which will be available for newer 787s  Wow! .

There is a good saying: a rolling stone collect no moss   .

[Edited 2012-09-06 21:14:18]
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):
The A350-1000 should have a 12% DOW advantage, which should translate into at least a 10% fuel mileage advantage. Add in a slightly higher seating capacity ~ 4% and the A350-1000 is going to have the upper hand.

Boeing will simply not allow the A350-1000 to have a significant advantage over the 77X. At present it seems that the 77X will outperform the A350-1000 on longer routes.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
EK seems to prefer a 12-year term for their sale and leasebacks of A380-800s and 777-300ERs. I do not know if EK has done this with early 777-300ER deliveries, but if they have, those terms may be expiring around 2017 and EK may prefer to not have to extend them.

EK is free to lobby Boeing to provide a 777X on a schedule that suits EK, but it really does seem like Boeing is just not going to pop out a 777X on that time schedule. Of course, EK might have chosen to learn something by the fact that the 747-8i ended up with the characteristics LH preferred over EK shortly after much EK lobbying followed by LH signing up for 25+25 of them!

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 21):
Nicole Piasecki is an engineer by training and was an engineer at Boeing:

I guess they don't have good classes on "trash talking" at Wharton! 

Seems Ms. Piasecki didn't learn that your trash talking needs to at least be plausible.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
It is almost all about the engines, the projected 777X ones would have almost 50% higher compression ratios (to use auto speak) then the 350-1000 TXWB, so the 777X if and when it get's of the drawing board would be no slouch.

I don't think there are any engine technologies available in 2020 that would render the A351 anything near "obsolete" even allowing for windage from the lady engineer turned marketer, and as your posts seem to suggest, it wouldn't be long before such technology would migrate to the A351.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Just me, or does this make them look rather pathetic, desperate even?

It's not you. She is pathetic.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
A race to the bottom is sad to see but at least the OEM's didn't start the race.

Actually, Boeing did start it in the early 1980s with their comments about upcomming A320. Leahy wasn't even on the horizon back then.

I gotta come up with the nickname for that lady. Nicole "She-Mouth", perhaps? Oh, got it: Mrs. Leahy.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Boeing will simply not allow the A350-1000 to have a significant advantage over the 77X. At present it seems that the 77X will outperform the A350-1000 on longer routes.

Yes, the 12% comment was wrt the 777-300ER vs A350-1000. It will be interesting to watch Boeing's next move. What will they do for; wing design, lighter wt materials, etc.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
"(The 777x)'s going to obsolete the A350-1000 before the A350-1000 is even delivered."
-- Boeing Vice-President of Business Development and Strategic Integration Nicole Piasecki

That's a pretty strong statement to be making, IMHO.

Indeed! Especially since "obsolete" is only an adjective. So that means the CEO can't even speak English correctly!

BTW, the correct expression is "to make obsolete"...
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):
The A350-1000 should have a 12% DOW advantage, which should translate into at least a 10% fuel mileage advantage. Add in a slightly higher seating capacity ~ 4% and the A350-1000 is going to have the upper hand.

A350-1000 has 9 abreast seating....
777-300ER has 10 abreast seating in some configurations....

Just how much longer is the fuselage of the A351 going to be to gain a 4% capacity advantage over the 77W? Not even talking the 77X which may get a slight stretch...
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Personally, it's clear to me that the 777W will be undermined by the A351, and there's no reason to expect that the 777X will "make the A351 obsolete"

I agree that saying the 777X will make the A350-1000 obsolete is going a bit far. This is nothing but pure marketing talk, and it's no different to what the other side has done as well. When it comes to marketing trash-talk, both sides have been guilty of over-exaggerating the numbers to make their product appear more favourable. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

What I find curious, however, is that the article mentioned that Ray Conner has "moved away from upholding" the 777X timeline, but a recent post in Randy's Journal quoted Mr Conner as saying that "our timing on a decision to offer that airplane has not changed", in response to the Seattle Times article claiming that Boeing are delaying the 777X. Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Just me, or does this make them look rather pathetic, desperate even?

Just as desperate and pathetic as one Mr John Leahy.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 2):
Do they honestly expect people to believe that a warmed up 30 year old design is going to make a brand new state of the art one obsolete? Competitive it maybe, but better... no way.

 

As opposed to an 11 year old design? The A350XWB was launched in 2006, after all, so by the time the A350-1000 EIS in 2017, it'll be 11 years old.

If we're to take program launch dates as the defining factor in the age of a design, then all aircraft are old by the time they enter service. The 777-300ER program, specifically, was launched in 2000, so that aircraft is nowhere near 30 years old!

What's more, the 777-9X is going to be much, much more than a "warmed up" 777-300ER. As it is currently projected, the 777-9X will have a 21% CASM improvement over the 777-300ER, and a 16% improvement in operating costs per seat.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I'll point out that the 737 is well over 30 years old and it's doing very well. What truly makes an aircraft efficient is the engines. The 77X will have newer engines than the A350. The Trent XWB has been in flight tests for some time now. The 77X's engines haven't even been officially named yet, they're so state-of-the-art!

And let's not forget that the 777 is not exactly a relic. At the time it was designed, airframe design and aircraft systems design were very mature technologies, so they don't tend to go obsolete as quickly as you'd think. And remember that the A350 has a conventional systems architecture, just like the 777.

With a new wing, the main difference between the 77X and A350 will be in the fuselage construction material, which winds up not being a *huge* factor.

I'm not saying that the 77X will blow the A350 out of the water. But it also will definitely have its advantages over the A350 in certain market segments and with certain carriers that operate 777's currently.

  

I'm confident that the 777X will be every bit as good as the A350.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 33):
Indeed! Especially since "obsolete" is only an adjective. So that means the CEO can't even speak English correctly!

Actually, obsolete is a transitive verb as well as an adjective. So, her usage was grammatical, although not necessarily plausible. Regards. -ir
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 31):
She is pathetic.
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 31):
Nicole "She-Mouth", perhaps?

I think that's a little over the top, IMHO. She's a sales person - this is what they do. She didn't call the A350 garbage or anything, she just touted the virtues of her own products. If that makes someone "pathetic" then I guess there's a lot of pathetic people out there selling stuff.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
I'm confident that the 777X will be every bit as good as the A350.

I'm not.

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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
I think that's a little over the top, IMHO. She's a sales person - this is what they do. She didn't call the A350 garbage or anything, she just touted the virtues of her own products. If that makes someone "pathetic" then I guess there's a lot of pathetic people out there selling stuff.

She has history of providing false information in public - see her comments how "737-800 available now is 2% more efficient than A320NEO" for example.

Most sales people are pathetic, I've experienced it first hand. She's no exception. And for the record - I'm no fan of Leahy, either.

Randy Baseler was "my kind" of salesperson, this gentleman had a class. Now the world is turning into the hands of the "young and rebellious", who think they could sell ice to an Eskimo.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
"(The 777x)'s going to obsolete the A350-1000 before the A350-1000 is even delivered."

Well, even one of the members of the 777-300ER fanclub (CX) has defected to the A350-1000, as Aboulafia mentioned in the article.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Is it all bluster to hide the fact that the 777X seems to not be coming out on the timeline that the former Boeing exec Jim Albaugh suggested?

Even our a.net arch villian Richard Aboulafia refers to this as "backpeddling", and wonders if Boeing is just saying this to support the presumed decision to wait on the 777X:

Boeing doesn't need to launch the 777X now in order to get it EIS in 2019. Pretty sure lots of preliminary work has already been done. EK wants it earlier, but that was never realistic and EK knows it. However, if the 777X is delayed into the next decade, Boeing is better off with an all new design which could indeed obsolete the A350, and not just the -1000.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
This is just the mirror of Leahy's early comments about the original A330 vs. 787.

Very well said.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
It is almost all about the engines, the projected 777X ones would have almost 50% higher compression ratios (to use auto speak) then the 350-1000 TXWB, so the 777X if and when it get's of the drawing board would be no slouch. But then new products are at their peak when they fly of the ppt, then they get bogged down by reality, delays and not the least that the competitor does not stand still either. The latter is best exemplified by the RR TXWB vs RR T1000. The TXWB has the "worlds best TSFC" due to being later in design then the T1000 ("rising line" compressor among other things). Guess who will have a rising line compressor all of a sudden? The T1000-TEN which will be available for newer 787s .There is a good saying: a rolling stone collect no moss .

Absolutely. And thanks again for your excellent posts.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
What's more, the 777-9X is going to be much, much more than a "warmed up" 777-300ER

Yes. But there is also a risk here, the 777X will be so close to a new design it will be also close to having the same risks of delays the 787 and A350 had....
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
And remember that the A350 has a conventional systems architecture

Not really, the A350 will feature a lot of features of the A380 just with less LRU's.

For example only two hydraulics circuits, Electrical-Hydrostatic Actuators (EHAs) and Electrical Backup Hydraulic Actuators (EBHAs),Local Electro-Hydraulic Generation System (LEHGS), also the avionics are connected again over a AFDX-Network and NSS Server System.

Also the avionics suite/radar of the A350 will be the most modern in civil aviation.I don't think Boeing will revamp all avionics and hydraulic systems/electrical systems.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
just like the 777.

Nope.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
main difference between the 77X and A350 will be in the fuselage construction material

The A350 wing is with the 787 the most advanced wing. Will the 777X wings be also equipped with a new trailing-edge high-lift system with an advanced dropped-hinge flap?
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:20 am

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 3):
They also said that the 737NG was 2% better than the NEO before they finally rushed to the drawing board to create the MAX
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 38):
She has history of providing false information in public - see her comments how "737-800 available now is 2% more efficient than A320NEO" for example.

The Piasecki quote you are referencing is a CASM comparison of the 737-800 vs the A320neo with a 12 seat difference in the aircraft. It is not a fuel burn reference. In fact, in an Air Insight article (see below), Piasecki aknowledges the A320neo would have a meaningful trip and seat fuel advantage over the 737-800. These are the same number every generic Boeing presentation shows, so it's hardly a Piasecki-specific claim.

The numbers Piasecki presented to Air Insight are a clear admission by Boeing the A320neo would have better per-seat fuel burn than the 737NG:

Quoting Piasecki:
"The 737 MAX fuel efficiency improvement over the Next-Generation will be 10-12%, we already offer winglets on the plane that we have for the past 10 years, and the fuel burn will be 4% better per seat than the competition"
http://airinsight.com/2011/08/31/how-does-max-compare/

Boeing claiming 737-800 CASM is lower than the A320neo is very much a number powered by those extra 12 seats and a lot of other assumptions in the analysis (the CASM numbers have strong sensitivity to seat count, the cost of mx and fuel, as well as landing fees). I understand the tendancy to dismiss the claim as rhetoric, but if you ask Boeing for the assumptions behind their public numbers, I believe they will provide them.

[Edited 2012-09-07 01:28:08]
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 38):
She has history of providing false information in public - see her comments how "737-800 available now is 2% more efficient than A320NEO" for example.

and its likely 100% true. The 738 carries more people with less airframe wieght. So on short hops the 738 should beat the per-seat fuel burn of a A320NEO. The extra seats are pretty key here to why the 738 still works. Sure its a rather limited picture of the two planes that put the 738 in the best light, but it doesn't make it false. Should we claim Airbus is making it all up when they use the A320NEO's best missions vs the 737NG and 737X?

Also when many of the 737NG vs A320NEO comments were made, the A320NEO had a massive jump in list price over the current A320 with no data on actual sales price. So the 737NG still looked quite good for overall lifetime economics. Everyone and thier dog was assuming that Airbus would leverage most of the lower operating costs into higher margins at the bargining table, then they were shocked to see Airbus was still quite agressive in the pricing of the A320NEO. So to use quotes from when the A320NEO was all paper and predictions then to say people are lying when the industry predictions didn't meet what Airbus did... Its not exactly filled with truth itself.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 31):
Oh, got it: Mrs. Leahy.

As a similar piece of news from Leahy is posted currently on Flightglbal.com too, so we could discuss which was more credible... :
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rom-a320-to-737-says-leahy-376095/

Leahy is confident that the NEO's 60% market share will persist.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
The A350XWB was launched in 2006, after all, so by the time the A350-1000 EIS in 2017, it'll be 11 years old.

Would the date of launch match with the age of the design, EIS would not be 11 years later. The safest way when the age of a design starts counting is when it has EIS...
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:24 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
As opposed to an 11 year old design? The A350XWB was launched in 2006, after all, so by the time the A350-1000 EIS in 2017, it'll be 11 years old.

No it is not. Even today the A350-1000 design work has not been concluded yet. To call the plane which is not even fully designed yet already an 11 year old design (at EIS) is grossly misinterpreting the facts.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
What's more, the 777-9X is going to be much, much more than a "warmed up" 777-300ER.

As was the A350-Mk1. There is only that much you can do with an existing airframe. We have heard that so many times during the days of the A350-Mk1. But sometime people might get the impression here that the laws of physics do not apply to Boeing. But only to it's competitors?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
I'm confident that the 777X will be every bit as good as the A350.

On certain missions, if the load factor is good enough, she very well might be, or might even slightly outperform it. But it is still way too early to tell and to make statements like these. On some missions the difference will be negligible imho. And on the majority of the missions for which the aircraft will be used, especially when the load factors are on the low(er) side, the A350-1000 will clearly be the better plane. Basic physics will amke sure of that.

So taking all diverse mission profiles including LF into account I would say and expect the balance would tip the scale mostly in favor of the A350-1000. But there probably will not be that much of a difference. Just as the A350-Mk1 would have come very, very, very close to the airplane what we now know as the B787. Also their the difference was, especially for certain mission profiles, almost negligible, but it was made here on A-net to be like a Grand Canyon.  .

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 37):
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 35):
I'm confident that the 777X will be every bit as good as the A350.[/quote]

I'm not.

Agreed.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 39):
Well, even one of the members of the 777-300ER fanclub (CX) has defected to the A350-1000, as Aboulafia mentioned in the article.

Which is telling of course. No marketing talk can outweigh orders in the end. Even if many orders were placed as part of a hype. Money still talks as opposed to marketing talk.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 40):
The A350 wing is with the 787 the most advanced wing. Will the 777X wings be also equipped with a new trailing-edge high-lift system with an advanced dropped-hinge flap?

Too early to tell. For sure the wing will be very advanced. But maybe she is a bit limited because it has to be mounted on the current B777 fuselage. But only real life operation data from airlines will tell how good the A350-1000 and the B777-X will be.

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 43):
The safest way when the age of a design starts counting is when it has EIS...

Agreed. That is a much better way of qualifying the design age of an airliner.



[Edited 2012-09-07 02:31:08]
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 39):
Well, even one of the members of the 777-300ER fanclub (CX) has defected to the A350-1000, as Aboulafia mentioned in the article.

An order for the A350-1000 does not preclude the possibility of a 777-9X order in the future, neither has CX stated that the A350-1000 is to be used as replacement for the 777-300ER. An A350 order is not a statement of a lack of faith in the 777.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 40):
Will the 777X wings be also equipped with a new trailing-edge high-lift system with an advanced dropped-hinge flap?

It is an all new wing that hasn't been designed yet, so it's too early to tell what features it will have.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):
No it is not. Even today the A350-1000 design work has not been concluded yet. To call the plane which is not even fully designed yet already an 11 year old design (at EIS) is grossly misinterpreting the facts.

That's only as valid as calling the 777X a "warmed up 30 year old design", which would only be true if one were to suggest that the original 777-200 is as good as the A350-1000.

The 777-9X is also an ongoing project whose design has not been finalised yet. Calling it a "warmed up 30 year old design" as Daysleeper has is grossly inaccurate.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 44):
As was the A350-Mk1. There is only that much you can do with an existing airframe. We have heard that so many times during the days of the A350-Mk1. But sometime people might get the impression here that the laws of physics do not apply to Boeing. But only to it's competitors?

I'm not one of those people who thought the A350 Mk 1 would've been a flop. The evidence is right there in the booming A330 sales. If the A350 Mk 1 became reality, it would become a very good competitor to a 787 with 8-abreast seating. The difference, however, is that the 787, being wider than the A350 Mk 1, has the ability to be installed with 9-abreast seating which would reduce its CASM, whereas the A350 Mk 1 could not.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
Calling it a "warmed up 30 year old design" as Daysleeper has is grossly inaccurate.

Agreed. That is just as not true.

That is why we should not overstate the reality. The reality is that both programs are being worked on intensively. That too many things are still unknowns, especially since no A350-XWB (whatever version) has flown yet and the B777-X program is still even longer out there on the design tables.

Probably by 2021 we can compare real life data of the two. Then we can start drawing conclusions. Though the orders raked up by that time will also be quite telling. So we are going to have to be very patient about this.
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 39):Well, even one of the members of the 777-300ER fanclub (CX) has defected to the A350-1000, as Aboulafia mentioned in the article.
An order for the A350-1000 does not preclude the possibility of a 777-9X order in the future, neither has CX stated that the A350-1000 is to be used as replacement for the 777-300ER. An A350 order is not a statement of a lack of faith in the 777.

True. I was referring to this claim though:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
"Boeing maintains that the 777-300ER is as good, if not better, than the A350-1000

(Should have included this part of the article in my post).

I strongly believe we can see both A35J and 777-9X in the same fleet. EK, QR and EY for sure, perhaps UA, AF, KL in the future.

However, only with 10 abreast Y seating in the 777-9X. Therefore, I very much doubt CX and SQ will be among them.
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Does this man really think that airlines executives are stupid or what?

No. But these remarks are not aimed at airline execs, and not at a.netters. They are aimed at manipulations of stock market, motivate the fan boys to buy Boeing stock when management wants to sell them...
 
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RE: Boeing Exec: 777X Will Make A350-100 Obsolete!

Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:48 am

'm sure it's not just you, but I don't get the vibe of pathetic or desperate, I get the vibe of going way over to the hyperbole side of aircraft marketing...this is a place we've been before. This is just the mirror of Leahy's early comments about the original A330 vs. 787.

Tom.

This thread should have stopped here. Of course it is just silly marketing talk no more no less and it seems every following post here fully understands this.

And of course any plane 'X' that is bigger (seat capacity) than 'y' can,will and does claim to be more efficient. But of course it's rubbisah (unless you can fill them all). Ryanair should be running 800 seater A380's - lowest seat cost. But they don't do they - no 'cos they couldn't fill it up.

It was, is and will always be 'horses for courses' and everyone knows this - ever her