MIAspotter
Topic Author
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FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:13 pm

A Ryanair 737 en route from Madrid to Gran Canaria, had to return to Madrid and perform an emergency landing after suffering a decompression.

Here´s a link to the article (Spanish only, but I can give a brief description)

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/notici...ir-despresurizacion-cabina-2199904

A total of 16PAX had to be attended by medical services after their plane suffered a decompression en.route from Madrid to Gran Canaria Airport, of those 16, 14 have been dismissed and 2 have been taken to a nearby hospital for more thorough checks.

The passengers complained of ear pain and headaches following the decompression.

This week, another Ryanair plane, made an emergency landing in Lanzarote because of low fuel.

Passengers report that at around 7:45am the airplane suddenly began losing altiture and a strong burning smell filled the cabin, decompression followed and the oxigen masks dropped down.

The aircraft returned to Madrid, Passengers were then taken to the boarding area and those who wished, continued their journey in another aircraft, they were informed that it was a new airplane with a different crew.

I saw the report on the local news channel, they were interviewing some of the passengers who said that when the mask dropped down, they were not working. (they probably forgot to insert 2€ for air, or just didn´t pulled on the mask as indicated by the crew during the demo which nobody pays attention to)

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RussianJet
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Thread starter):
I saw the report on the local news channel, they were interviewing some of the passengers who said that when the mask dropped down, they were not working. (they probably forgot to insert 2€ for air, or just didn´t pulled on the mask as indicated by the crew during the demo which nobody pays attention to)

Seems pretty common for people to claim masks weren't working when they actually were in these situations. As for the €2 comment, I commend your predictability and gross inappropriateness. Must have been pretty frightning for all involved, hope the injured are doing ok.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Quokkas
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Thread starter):
of those 16, 14 have been dismissed and 2 have been taken to a nearby hospital

Firstly, it is good to hear that their were no major injuries or fatalities. I can understand that ear ache and head aches would occur upon rapid descent but generally does not produce lasting effects, unless prolonged.

Quoting MIAspotter (Thread starter):
they were interviewing some of the passengers who said that when the mask dropped down, they were not working.

This is a concern for crew on all flights, whether operated by FR or not. Are the passengers actually watching the safety demonstration or video? Many passengers are either preoccupied with ignoring instructions to turn off their mobiles or blase about it, believing that nothing ever happens.

Must have been frightening for everyone though. Any news on the cause?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Clydenairways
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Seems pretty common for people to claim masks weren't working when they actually were in these situations.

Yes. People expect there to be a big flow of oxygen when they put those masks on, but the reality is not the case and they think it's not working properly, when it actually is.
 
rfields5421
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Come on. Ryanair invites comments like a £2 fee for emergency oxygen with their unending list of adding fees. Not inappropriate.

Sometimes I think there are folks on this forum, not you, who feel we can never laugh, and that grown adults have to be kept from reality lest it offend them.
 
eicvd
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Come on. Ryanair invites comments like a £2 fee for emergency oxygen with their unending list of adding fees. Not inappropriate.

Sometimes I think there are folks on this forum, not you, who feel we can never laugh, and that grown adults have to be kept from reality lest it offend them.

It might have been funny back in the day but now comments like that are just boring.
COYBIB
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:53 pm

There is a safety card on the back of the seat in front...

707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Quoting MIAspotter (Thread starter):
I saw the report on the local news channel, they were interviewing some of the passengers who said that when the mask dropped down, they were not working. (they probably forgot to insert 2€ for air, or just didn´t pulled on the mask as indicated by the crew during the demo which nobody pays attention to)

Seems pretty common for people to claim masks weren't working when they actually were in these situations. As for the €2 comment, I commend your predictability and gross inappropriateness. Must have been pretty frightning for all involved, hope the injured are doing ok.

I agree that comment was totally inappropriate - Ryanair would never charge less than 2.50€ (plus the credit card fee).
 
eicvd
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 6):
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 7):

        
COYBIB
 
MIAspotter
Topic Author
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 2):
Any news on the cause?

Not really, but smell of burning in the cabin + loss of pressurisation = pressurisation valves / packs issue? one of the A.net tech guys might know  
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
Yes. People expect there to be a big flow of oxygen when they put those masks on, but the reality is not the case and they think it's not working properly, when it actually is.

That´s why they mention on the safety demo, ¨PULL ON THE MASK TO START THE FLOW OF AIR, AND DON´T WORRY IF THE BAG DOES NOT INFLATE, AIR WILL STILL FLOW¨

But as I mentioned, people nowadays rarely pay attention, here in Spain, kids just love to point the exits with the crew.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Come on. Ryanair invites comments like a £2 fee for emergency oxygen with their unending list of adding fees. Not inappropriate.

Sometimes I think there are folks on this forum, not you, who feel we can never laugh, and that grown adults have to be kept from reality lest it offend them.

Well, you know how it is in here, there are some people with their heads way up their own arse, ignoring them is the best thing to do.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 7):
I agree that comment was totally inappropriate - Ryanair would never charge less than 2.50€ (plus the credit card fee).

And God have mercy upon your soul if you forget to print the voucher at home! then it will really be your own f**k up as MOL once said...

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Fabo
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:28 pm

Guys, I know that "neverending charges" exist on Ryanair, and MOL uses them sometimes for comedic/PR potential, but come on. This is a serious issue. Joking about masks not working because a coin was not inserted is grossly inappropriate, especially if it is possible that the masks were indeed not working (although I agree that it was probably just pax expecting somthing different).

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 9):
That´s why they mention on the safety demo, ¨PULL ON THE MASK TO START THE FLOW OF AIR, AND DON´T WORRY IF THE BAG DOES NOT INFLATE, AIR WILL STILL FLOW¨

I dont think Ryanair does, at least I dont remember them mentioning it when I flew them a week and a half ago - but they did mention pulling down on them.
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
kdhurst380
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:50 pm

"Pull the mask down to start the flow of oxygen and place over your face using the straps to secure it and breathe normally, please note that the bag does not inflate" is a standard briefing on all European airlines, including Ryanair. I think this is a more a matter of people choosing not to listen and then blaming somebody else/making false assumptions, people are good at that.
 
rfields5421
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 10):
Joking about masks not working because a coin was not inserted is grossly inappropriate,

This was a very successful result to a serious, but not major, incident on an aircraft. One which every crew should be able to handle without problems. It was clear in the original post that there were no serious injuries.

Decompression can hurt. It did the three times it has happened to me. But it is not a life threatening emergency if the crew starts their descent promptly. Some passengers will have pain in their ears, some in their sinuses. It would not be 'fun' if a person had a head cold.

Also based upon returning to MAD - we can assume that the aircraft had not reached full cruise altitude when it lost cabin pressure, so there was less danger than an event at cruise.

And anyone on an aviation focused web site should know that 99.9999999999% of the time passenger complaints about oxygen masks not working are false and because the passenger in question did not comply with the instructions and did not listen to the required safety briefing.

So joking about it after we know everyone is safe and okay is perfectly acceptable. And I'm sure almost everyone familiar with Ryanair who was reading the original post had the same thought as the OP, only he got to it sooner.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
As for the €2 comment, I commend your predictability and gross inappropriateness.

Actually, it's fair game. MOL threatens to add new fees all the time, so the OP's comment was fair game.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
RussianJet
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
Actually, it's fair game. MOL threatens to add new fees all the time, so the OP's comment was fair game.

Hardly fair game. People actually suffered as a result of the nature of the incident and there is nothing to suggest that FR handled the emergency in anything other than an exemplary fashion. So unless you like laughing at the misfortune of others or suggesting things that aren't remotely true then we need to give the tired jokes a rest in a serious situation like this.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 11):
"Pull the mask down to start the flow of oxygen and place over your face using the straps to secure it and breathe normally, please note that the bag does not inflate" is a standard briefing on all European airlines, including Ryanair. I think this is a more a matter of people choosing not to listen and then blaming somebody else/making false assumptions, people are good at that.

There is no such wording on FR.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
AirframeAS
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):
Hardly fair game.

Your opinion but yes it is fair game. It's a two way street.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Dogbreath
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:22 am

The following is what is said during the Ryanair PA.

"In the event of a sudden loss of cabin pressure individual oxygen masks will automatically drop from the panel just above your head. If this happens remain seated and pull down firmly on the mask to start the flow of oxygen. Place the mask over your nose and mouth and breathe normally. Secure the mask using the strap provided and adults travelling with young children please attend to your own masks first."

The main point here being, "pull down firmly on the mask to start the flow of oxygen". Each seat row has one oxygen generator with 4 masks attached and requires just one of the masks to be pulled down to begin the operation of the oxygen generator.
If indeed there was no flow from the masks it may well have been due a failure to pull down on one of the masks, or it may be due to the fact that most pax assume that the mask will inflate (like a football), when in fact it actually doesn't inflate at all.

Quoting anthonychua527 (Reply 16):
See? Fly budget and you get crap. That is why I never fly budget, not even for free. Probably the passengers should thank their lucky stars they are still alive in that flying coffin. If you want to fly budget, be prepared to be treated worse than cargo and put your life on the line.

Whilst I admire your point of view to never fly LCC and with that I guess you stick with legacy carriers. Can I ask you how many pax have been killed flying European LCC (Ryanair, Easyjet for example), or for that matter how many LCC CFIT's or major crashes with deaths have occurred in Europe. Ryanair for example fly an average 1400 sectors a day, or 42,000 a month, yet they have not had a single fatality.
Not too sure what the LCC experience (and safety record) is in Singapore and SE Asia, but sounds pretty bad according to your POV.
Truth, Honour, Loyalty
 
anthonychua527
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:08 am

It's not so much about fatalities... I'm actually more peeved by the fact that everything has to be paid for on LCCs. question: Why was there such a serious cabin decompression on this flight? No fatalities, yes, but injuries? That's bad enough.

In Singapore, the LCCs have had no serious accidents yet. However, flying them is a nightmare. You get lengthy delays with very little accountability, smelly aircraft, dwarf legroom, and horrible service. The crew's job is probably just standing by in case of emergency. Service is practically non-existent. As with all LCCs, you have to pay for everything you need.

It is such a horrible experience and I won't go into details. Talking about serious safety issues? Try Indonesia's LCCs.
 
GT4EZY
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:13 am

The 'oxygen wasn't working' claim seems to be happening time and time again during decompressions. 'The bag does/may not inflate' is not standard on all airlines demo's, it isn't at my airline and I've mentioned that in training sessions. Still, you would still get passengers claiming that oxygen wasn't working purely because they expect a big rush of oxygen upon deployment. The fact that these passengers remained conscious and lucid should suggest to them that oxygen was indeed flowing. However, some people just won't make that connection.

The burning smell wasn't likely a cause of the decompression but the oxygen generators which get pretty damn hot when the PSU oxygen is deployed.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
sandyb123
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:47 am

Nobody else has said this so I will stir this one into the mix   ...

1) Does there seem to be a large number of inflight issues with FR flights? There have been two or three decompression issues this year (one over the North Sea, another I can't remember where and this one). Now I know these things happen and perhaps because Ryanair is much more in the public eye, but it seems to be a theme.

2) Does aircraft type seem to have an effect? How does the A320 family compare for pressurisation problems? The 737 does seem to have a history of problems relating to pressurisation.

Sandyb123
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MIAspotter
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:08 am

Quoting anthonychua527 (Reply 17):
In Singapore, the LCCs have had no serious accidents yet. However, flying them is a nightmare. You get lengthy delays with very little accountability, smelly aircraft, dwarf legroom, and horrible service. The crew's job is probably just standing by in case of emergency. Service is practically non-existent. As with all LCCs, you have to pay for everything you need.

I flew JetStar from HKG-SIN-HKG last year and found them to be absolutely perfect, the planes were well kept, clean, cabins were in nice shape, and the crews performed their duties in a very professional manner.

Certainly a winner of my business if my travels takes me around Asia soon.

I can´t attest to Scoot or Tiger Airways since I have yet to fly with them.

Indonesian LCC´s are in a league of their own.

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bueb0g
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 19):
1) Does there seem to be a large number of inflight issues with FR flights? There have been two or three decompression issues this year (one over the North Sea, another I can't remember where and this one). Now I know these things happen and perhaps because Ryanair is much more in the public eye, but it seems to be a theme.

Do bear in mind that they have 300 + aircraft operating many sectors per day, so it's natural that they'd have more incidents than most airlines. What I'd say is remarkable though is, despite the amount of operations, they really have a stellar safety record - it does seem that these pressurisation issues crop up every now and then but their only real accident has been the one at Rome with the birdstrike and double engine failure, which ended happily.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
rcair1
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
nd anyone on an aviation focused web site should know that 99.9999999999% of the time passenger complaints about oxygen masks not working are false and because the passenger in question did not comply with the instructions and did not listen to the required safety briefing.

While I agree with you - does this not point out an issue with the current O2 system. As an engineer who has designed user interfaces, we would view repeated failure of the customer to understand the UI as a problem with the UI. Just sayin'

Quoting anthonychua527 (Reply 17):
I'm actually more peeved by the fact that everything has to be paid for on LCCs.

Huh? That is part of being a LCC - you pay for services you use? It seems to me that a company has the right to provide the services that the customer wants - in the case of a LCC - it is obvious people want basic transportation at a low cost. The model seems to be working. So - what right to any of us have to be peeved at it? We can choose not to use that carrier - but be peeved? If the model works - they will be successful. If not, they will go out of business.
rcair1
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Come on. Ryanair invites comments like a £2 fee for emergency oxygen with their unending list of adding fees. Not inappropriate.

  

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 7):
I agree that comment was totally inappropriate - Ryanair would never charge less than 2.50€ (plus the credit card fee).

 
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
Actually, it's fair game. MOL threatens to add new fees all the time, so the OP's comment was fair game.

Exactly.

Now nobody was seriously injured, we all have our way of dealing with serious news - and I feel making light of a stupid CEO is perfectly appropriate.
Tonight we fly
 
Quokkas
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
and I feel making light of a stupid CEO is perfectly appropriate.

Making fun of MOL may be fair game but I would not describe him as stupid.

He heads a company that to date has been very successful and everyone is bending over to accommodate him. Subsidies to attract FR frequencies, passengers willing to do what they are told to for fear of a penalty, LH complaining about the unfair advantages FR has. Free advertising whenever he opens his mouth.

That doesn't suggest someone who is dull-witted or lacking in mental acuity. Unrefined and a foul-mouth maybe: stupid he is not. Even if FR were to disappear tomorrow, do you not think that he will have provided himself with a golden parachute?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
Making fun of MOL may be fair game but I would not describe him as stupid.

A million pardons. A CEO douchebag. Thanks for correcting me.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
He heads a company that to date has been very successful and everyone is bending over to accommodate him.

Indeed, as I mentioned, stupid wasn't the appropriate word, douchbag is far more accurate. Alternatively parasite on the state could be fitting since he's been good at sucking up subsidies and refusing to pay government penalties for his bus company.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
Subsidies to attract FR frequencies, passengers willing to do what they are told to for fear of a penalty, LH complaining about the unfair advantages FR has.

Mhmm, admirable isn't it? Sucking the government's teat, my money, you'll excuse me while I vomit.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
Free advertising whenever he opens his mouth.

Outside of a.net? Not so much, actually - MOL is mentioned every once in a while when there's absolutely nothing else to fill the papers with, and is that so strange? MOL being a douchebag? News?

Really?

No, it's just here where we obsess over every minutae that happens in the aviation industry that there's 'free advertisment', we are in a bubble. Ask a random person on the street about the latest 'shocking' pile of manure that leaked out of the orifice of MOL and the reply is going to be: Who?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
That doesn't suggest someone who is dull-witted or lacking in mental acuity. Unrefined and a foul-mouth maybe: stupid he is not. Even if FR were to disappear tomorrow, do you not think that he will have provided himself with a golden parachute?

Yeah, I'm sure MOL takes care of his own precious behind, like any proper sociopath would. So what? Do I appear concerned over MOL's future?

Again: I take it back, he's not stupid. He's a douchebag. Class A douchebag.
Tonight we fly
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Come on. Ryanair invites comments like a £2 fee for emergency oxygen with their unending list of adding fees. Not inappropriate.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):

Actually, it's fair game. MOL threatens to add new fees all the time, so the OP's comment was fair game.

Interesting to see Americans mock FR. US short- and mid-haul Y class services by 'mainline' carriers are characterized by FR-style nickel and diming. In fact, one might even call UA, AA, US, DL etc FR-wannabes - you know, FR products at inflated prices. Instead Americans pay 100s of dollars more than they would on FR for the occassional flight with IFE (overhead or live TV) and one small glass of coke. Everything else costs extra. Missing anything?

Not a fan of MOL, but I am sure even he would say: "the joke is on you".  
Quoting Asturias (Reply 25):
Mhmm, admirable isn't it? Sucking the government's teat, my money, you'll excuse me while I vomit.

Ha. I think you've missed the small bit about aviation being an economic tool. FR picks up a lot of leisure traffic. Leisure traffic consists of tourism. I suspect the governments have realised that offering a minor subsidy at an airport is more than offset by the potential increase in tourism revenue. Yes, that means other people will come to your city/country and pump money into it.

Its a non-starter as an argument.
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 26):
Ha. I think you've missed the small bit about aviation being an economic tool. FR picks up a lot of leisure traffic. Leisure traffic consists of tourism. I suspect the governments have realised that offering a minor subsidy at an airport is more than offset by the potential increase in tourism revenue. Yes, that means other people will come to your city/country and pump money into it.

No, I have not missed that 'argument', I have dismissed that 'argument'.

If there is a business model to be had for an airline to fly to any city, if there is a demand, then they will fly there.

Now FR's 'business model' depends on government subsidies. Your imaginary low low price on FR is paid by me in part.

One can play Excel games until the cows come home and try to justify that, but it's pretty evident that since this bus-company won't be able to do business without the government paying them, well screw them.

Girona subsidises the pathetic excuse of an airline and do you think people stop in Girona? No, they go straight to Barcelona.

I happen to support healthy and real capitalism, not abuse of public funds.
Tonight we fly
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1141
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 27):
I happen to support healthy and real capitalism, not abuse of public funds.

Girona can stop funding it tomorrow. Whats stopping them?

They're obviously deriving some benefit from it.
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 28):
Girona can stop funding it tomorrow. Whats stopping them?

Who knows, but it isn't the fear of lost revenue from tourists that don't actually go there with the subsidised FR, instead hop straight on a bus to somewhere else (usually Barcelona)

How much tourism do you think Beauvais-Tillé gets because of FR?

Zero. Or practically so. Wouldn't justify a cent of subsidy to a carrier that pretends to offer low low prices, but does so on the government teat.

(and in the end doesn't offer low low prices, just the illusion and reaps a hefty profit)
Tonight we fly
 
RussianJet
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Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
(and in the end doesn't offer low low prices, just the illusion and reaps a hefty profit)

That just isn't true. I have had literally hundreds of stupidly cheap fares from FR. You may well have some good points regarding subsidy etc, but why undermine an otherwise well-explained position with untruths? Not everyone pays pennies of course, but to say cheap fares don't exist on a decent scale is just false. As always, it partly depends what exactly you want (bags etc, priority boarding, whatever), but for many it is possible to achieve absurdly low fares. I went to Germany and back for around fifty pounds very recently. Could not get anything like that low elsewhere.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
That just isn't true. I have had literally hundreds of stupidly cheap fares from FR. You may well have some good points regarding subsidy etc, but why undermine an otherwise well-explained position with untruths? Not everyone pays pennies of course, but to say cheap fares don't exist on a decent scale is just false. As always, it partly depends what exactly you want (bags etc, priority boarding, whatever), but for many it is possible to achieve absurdly low fares. I went to Germany and back for around fifty pounds very recently. Could not get anything like that low elsewhere.

You are correct of course, that it is very much possible to get cheap fares with FR, but you will pay extra fees, in most cases you will fly to remote airports meaning extra bus fees, your ticket is partially subsidized by the government and while a 50 pound return ticket is possible it is not typical - simply because at best 50 pounds barely covers the price of Jet-A for a fully packed 189 seat 738.

So, evidently most people pay more, because FR isn't losing money.

In the end, most people are probably better served by choosing a carrier with a little bit more expensive ticket, that flies directly between the main airports of major cities, because someone is paying for FR profits - and it's not the people with the 50 pound return tickets.
Tonight we fly
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 31):
In the end, most people are probably better served by choosing a carrier with a little bit more expensive ticket, that flies directly between the main airports of major cities, because someone is paying for FR profits - and it's not the people with the 50 pound return tickets.

"Are probably better" and actually do are two different things completely. While your opinion is your opinion, it goes against over 8.72million people in July of this year alone - an 8% increase on the previous year.

FR has an extremely low cost base and, with subsidies which governments WILLINGLY give to them, continue to have steady profits.

Take your issue up with your government and stop complaining about FR who are taking money that is offered to them. Maybe it's bad political decisions - but it's one hell of a great business plan
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
RussianJet
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 31):
but you will pay extra fee

Far from in every case. If the choice of routing suits your needs then that is far from a given, and if you walk into the deal with your eyes open you need not pay any extra (and as for the far away airport thing, it is long since established that a good deal of the route network does not come into that category these days).
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Asturias
Posts: 1953
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 32):
"Are probably better" and actually do are two different things completely. While your opinion is your opinion, it goes against over 8.72million people in July of this year alone - an 8% increase on the previous year.

An 8% increase of stupid people. Yeah, they're 'probably better' choosing something, anything else, than FR. As one is 'probably better off' excercising a little each day.

In the sense, that it isn't 'just an opinion', it's a fact.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 32):
FR has an extremely low cost base and, with subsidies which governments WILLINGLY give to them, continue to have steady profits.

Gosh golly, an extremely low government subsidized cost base??

No govt. subsidies = no FR, since FR couldn't use the subsidies to pretend to have a low cost model - when in fact there isn't anything particularly low cost about FR. Especially for the average pax.

FR needs to pay for fuel, and your fantasy prices barely even cover that ... let alone other overhead and the fat profits.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 32):
Take your issue up with your government and stop complaining about FR who are taking money that is offered to them. Maybe it's bad political decisions - but it's one hell of a great business plan

I'm not actually complaining about FR receiving subsidies, I despise such funnelling of public money into the pockets of douchbags... but as you mention; that's pretty much the 'amazing' business plan of FR: government subsidies, along with false advertising and stupid pax.

Remove one leg of that tripod and the whole scam falls flat on its face. Just about as far from the free market and an actually viable business model as is possible.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Far from in every case. If the choice of routing suits your needs then that is far from a given, and if you walk into the deal with your eyes open you need not pay any extra (and as for the far away airport thing, it is long since established that a good deal of the route network does not come into that category these days).

It doesn't have to apply to every case, just 99% or so .. which it does.
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captainmeeerkat
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
An 8% increase of stupid people. Yeah, they're 'probably better' choosing something, anything else, than FR. As one is 'probably better off' excercising a little each day.

You're really Michael O' Leary having a meltdown, aren't you?! All those stupid people - like peas in a pod you and him 
Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
In the sense, that it isn't 'just an opinion', it's a fact.

It's your opinion, unless you can provide information on the level of subsidy provided.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
Gosh golly, an extremely low government subsidized cost base??

Notice the conjunction 'and'.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
FR needs to pay for fuel, and your fantasy prices barely even cover that ... let alone other overhead and the fat profits.

Ancilliary revenue? Again, you state your opinion without a basis of how much everything is. Your back-of-napkin calculation in the other thread are pointless unless you provide figures

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
I'm not actually complaining about FR receiving subsidies, I despise such funnelling of public money into the pockets of douchbags... but as you mention; that's pretty much the 'amazing' business plan of FR: government subsidies, along with false advertising and stupid pax.

Once again, this is a problem between you and your government. Report any false advertising to the relevant advertising standards authority and stop making baseless statements because you dislike a successful and thriving company
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 35):
You're really Michael O' Leary having a meltdown, aren't you?! All those stupid people - like peas in a pod you and him 

Yeah me an MOL are best buds. Love that little rascal. Wouldn't do business with him though  
Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 35):
It's your opinion, unless you can provide information on the level of subsidy provided.

It's your opinion that FR's business model is a sustainable low cost model, unless you can provide detailed information on every expense and how it is cheaper than a competing LCC or legacy.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 35):
Notice the conjunction 'and'.

Notice how I made your long sentence much shorter, clearer and easier to understand.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 35):
Ancilliary revenue? Again, you state your opinion without a basis of how much everything is. Your back-of-napkin calculation in the other thread are pointless unless you provide figures

In which fantasy land is jet-A at under 3 dollars a gallon? You're confusing reality with conjecture. Reality insists that fuel is not free and the consumption of the average 738 isn't exactly classified information.

Evidently you fit perfectly into the customer base for FR.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 35):
Once again, this is a problem between you and your government. Report any false advertising to the relevant advertising standards authority and stop making baseless statements because you dislike a successful and thriving company

All I see is apologism and whining. The fact is FR only succeeds and 'thrives' because of government subsidy and stupid pax.

Actually I don't dislike the company, it's just a company - it's the false business model, whining fanbois and the douchbag-in-chief that I dislike, and the government subsidies just makes me sick.

Parasites.
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ElPistolero
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
An 8% increase of stupid people. Yeah, they're 'probably better' choosing something, anything else, than FR. As one is 'probably better off' excercising a little each day.

By your own logic (FR is crap - people get ripped off - they wont fly it again when they realize how bad it is), that 8% increase isn't really an 8% increase, since everyone who flew it last July would avoid it this year. Thats 8.72 million new passengers who've never flown FR before.

It makes no sense, does it. An 8% increase suggests at least some people are returning to fly them again. They'd have to be spectacularly stupid to do that, eh? Which might make MOL right? Either that, or they're happy with the product. Could that be possible?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
Who knows, but it isn't the fear of lost revenue from tourists that don't actually go there with the subsidised FR, instead hop straight on a bus to somewhere else (usually Barcelona)

Let me get this straight:

1. MOL is stupid.
2. Girona City officials are stupid.
3. FR pax are stupid.

Lots of stupidity going around these days in Spain. And among tourists visiting them.

Or, somewhere in there, there is a win-win thats working out for all involved?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
Wouldn't justify a cent of subsidy to a carrier that pretends to offer low low prices, but does so on the government teat.

Are they subsidized? More accurately, is transportation to other airports/airports themselves not subsidized?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
No govt. subsidies = no FR, since FR couldn't use the subsidies to pretend to have a low cost model - when in fact there isn't anything particularly low cost about FR. Especially for the average pax.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
Remove one leg of that tripod and the whole scam falls flat on its face. Just about as far from the free market and an actually viable business model as is possible.

Michael O Leary is Superman. That Irish douch bag has managed to outmanouevre IB/LH/AF/KL/BA executives across Europe by getting government subsidies. So much so that his opponents can't figure out how to get enough influence in their own countries to figure out a way to stop him from getting money from their governments, which he is using to compete with them.

And, of course, all those bureaucrats are so taken in by his charm that they aren't seeing the obvious as clearly as you.

Either that, or the ...ummm...scam...isn't a scam. Its actually providing concrete benefits. I don't think theres any direct subsidies. The extent of them go towards keeping airports functioning and transportation links open - but then again, I find it hard to believe that there are many airports and airport public transit links in the EU that don't dip into taxpayer money in some form.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
It's your opinion that FR's business model is a sustainable low cost model, unless you can provide detailed information on every expense and how it is cheaper than a competing LCC or legacy
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/2012/q4_2012_doc.pdf

Did you ever look at their annual report? Admittedly, I haven't. Nor do I intend to. but there you go. Compare it to IBs?
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 361
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
It's your opinion that FR's business model is a sustainable low cost model, unless you can provide detailed information on every expense and how it is cheaper than a competing LCC or legacy.

They make a profit! Compare with AA (Bankruptcy), LH (loss), AF/KLM (loss) IAG (loss) - I don't need figures to prove what is known - you need figures to prove what only you seems to know

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
Notice how I made your long sentence much shorter, clearer and easier to understand.

Thanks, but there is no need. My second PhD is in English

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
In which fantasy land is jet-A at under 3 dollars a gallon? You're confusing reality with conjecture. Reality insists that fuel is not free and the consumption of the average 738 isn't exactly classified information

You count 189*20 only? Where is every ticket 20 euro? Did you include baggage fees? Car hire? All LCCs thrive on ancilliary revenue - the same things beloved failing legacies charge for as standard

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
Evidently you fit perfectly into the customer base for FR.

I would ask that you withdraw that, the implication that I am stupid is as unfounded as the rest of your claims

Quoting Asturias (Reply 36):
All I see is apologism and whining. The fact is FR only succeeds and 'thrives' because of government subsidy and stupid pax.

Actually I don't dislike the company, it's just a company - it's the false business model, whining fanbois and the douchbag-in-chief that I dislike, and the government subsidies just makes me sick.

And all the rest of us see is baseless dribble with no evidence - cough up with some figures on your statements or give over. Any business model that is false would fail and it does not do that. A 5 year old math student could see that the earnings outweigh the outlay and it is a successful business
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
rfields5421
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 26):
Interesting to see Americans mock FR. US short- and mid-haul Y class services by 'mainline' carriers are characterized by FR-style nickel and diming.

I'm not mocking FR, I'm joining in the fun in the spirit of international community with my fellow aviation enthusiasts.

However, I do morn the loss of the concept of customer service - not just in the airline industry.

Frankly, except for Spirit, no US airline yet has the cojones to move as rapidly toward the fee for every service model as FR. But more are taking that tactic. MOL is excellent at making money for his investors, and keeping the pot stirred with his comments. Good luck to him and I hope he never has to fly his own airline.

I don't patronize such airlines in the US unless I'm required to do so by route availability. I'd personally much rather fly WN in the US whenever possible, mainly because their people are pleasant and happy to be doing their job, but the fact they don't charge me a fee if I can't fit my bag for a two week trip in the overhead bin helps.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):
I'm not mocking FR, I'm joining in the fun in the spirit of international community with my fellow aviation enthusiasts.

Fair enough. Theres something of an LH/AC on EK -style character assassination going on in one of the other threads, hence the heightened sensitivity. Objectivity tends to go out of the window pretty fast when the disliked mavericks show up.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 39):

Frankly, except for Spirit, no US airline yet has the cojones to move as rapidly toward the fee for every service model as FR.

How many of them are offering FR style deep discounts (4 mile redemptions on UA notwithstanding)? I don't know much about Spirit, but I imagine they are the closest to FR in terms of both service and pricing. The mainlines are close in service, but not in pricing.
 
RussianJet
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
It doesn't have to apply to every case, just 99% or so .. which it does.

Do you have a source for such an outlandish statistic? Or is it just based on overblown bluster? My position, by contrast, is based on a very large number of successful, cheap bookings, something close to a couple of hundred sectors, and the clear demand for their services as represented by their passenger stats.

Edit: Also, if you look properly at the route network you will see plenty of principle airports represented, making the number of 'secondaries' very far from 99% too.

[Edited 2012-09-08 18:12:55]
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rfields5421
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 40):
Fair enough. Theres something of an LH/AC on EK -style character assassination going on in one of the other threads, hence the heightened sensitivity. Objectivity tends to go out of the window pretty fast when the disliked mavericks show up.

Over the years I watched these forums

Too many people take this stuff way too seriously, too emotionally.

These are airlines - just another form of company - in business to make a profit. Just because airline A is doing well today, or airline B is not - it's just business. Yes, for employees of an airline it can be personal at times.

I used to love flying on Northwest when I was stationed in the Pacific, and on Pan-Am before. But I understand what happened to both and why they are not around any longer. My favorite old airline was Eastern and their L-1011s.

I've had the opportunity to fly local nation airlines in several Far East nations, but none from mainland China. I've had the opportunity to fly some of the small airlines in the Caribbean, so I was somewhat familiar with their products and their policies.

The only flights I've made on European carriers were Alitalia from FCO-CTA in Aug 83 and BA from BEY-LHR in Nov 83. Not enough to actually know their products.

FR is a lot of fun to discuss. They are not boring. There is always something about them in the news, or on the forums.

From the other side of the pond - we can see how FR excites folks, both the good and the bad. For folks who are tech savvy, and understand the way FR works their system - it can be a great bargin. A chance to do a lot of traveling very cheaply.

But that's not the way I choose to fly today.

As I often tried to teach young sailors on their first overseas assignments - "Different is just different. It is not right or wrong. Learn to understand and appreciate the opportunity to see how other folks do things. This world is a big beautiful place filled with interesting people and fascinating places to see. Don't waste the chance to learn."
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
From the other side of the pond - we can see how FR excites folks, both the good and the bad. For folks who are tech savvy, and understand the way FR works their system - it can be a great bargin. A chance to do a lot of traveling very cheaply.

That people "on the other side of the Pond" or in Australia or wherever notice FR (and - yes - make jokes about nickel and diming) is testamount to the success of the business. Whatever else anyone may think, it is a truly remarkable outfit!

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 21):
despite the amount of operations, they really have a stellar safety record

I wish more people would realise this! For all the jokes about paying 2 Euros to use an oxygen mask, you are the only one who has pointed out that FR have a flawless safety record. You can accuse them of many things, but flying unsafe planes certainly isn't one of them.

Safety is the one subject on which MOL isn't the maverick we know him as. He says that if BA had an accident most people would shrug their shoulders and keep flying them because they are BA, something about them inspires confidence. In comparison he knows that people think that FR cut every cost (including maintenance) and therefore if FR have an accident then his business will be dead overnight. Suddenly it will become an unsafe airline which ruthlessly put their passengers lives at risk, and no one would fly them.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
wstakl
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:44 am

Silly me thinking this thread was about an emergency landing of a FR 737 after suffering some kind of decompression problem! As you were lads.....
 
ozglobal
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:25 am

Ryanair have had a number of such serious decompressions at altitude, usually with multiple people having burst ear drums. It seems that their maintenance may not match their extremely high rotation frequency.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 361
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 44):
Silly me thinking this thread was about an emergency landing of a FR 737 after suffering some kind of decompression problem! As you were lads.....

It is the usual farce that each thread remotely related to FR descends into.

As stated above, the safety record of FR is exceptional in relation to the number of sectors they fly per day/week/month year. All the "stupid" people who fly probably realise this also. It is an essential component of their business model
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
rcair1
Crew
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 26):
Interesting to see Americans mock FR.

Careful there buddy- let's not stereotype. I've never flown FR, probably never will, but I'm an American and I've never mocked FR. Probably the opposite. If FR has a business model that works - great. If some subsidies are supporting it, and it they go away - FR will adapt or shut down. In any case, apparently people are using it - high frequency, high loads.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
An 8% increase of stupid people. Yeah, they're 'probably better' choosing something, anything else, than FR. As one is 'probably better off' excercising a little each day.

In the sense, that it isn't 'just an opinion', it's a fact.

Man - I've rarely seen anybody so worked up. Seriously - get a life! It's a company! Hardly a matter of epic proportions. And why do you have such a bad opinion of your fellow human - 8% increase in stupid people? Really?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
Too many people take this stuff way too seriously, too emotionally.

   I been reading this because it is so funny to see.

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 44):

Silly me thinking this thread was about an emergency landing of a FR 737 after suffering some kind of decompression problem! As you were lads.....

  
rcair1
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5647
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Note - we are only making fun of FR because their crew handled the event qucikly, calmly and professionally - ensuring what should be a minor problem did not escalate into a major problem.

I guess folks don't remember the jokes about US Airways refunding the passengers tickets for US1549 - minus a $25 charge from transportation from LGA to the George Washington Bridge.

We make jokes about successful resolution of incidents.

[Edited 2012-09-09 08:48:23]
 
Asturias
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RE: FR Emergency Landing In MAD

Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
By your own logic (FR is crap - people get ripped off - they wont fly it again when they realize how bad it is), that 8% increase isn't really an 8% increase, since everyone who flew it last July would avoid it this year. Thats 8.72 million new passengers who've never flown FR before.

Missing the point, there's plenty of popular crap out there.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
1. MOL is stupid.

Nah, but a douchebag for sure.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
2. Girona City officials are stupid.

Nah, but they are wasting public funds.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
3. FR pax are stupid.

Unless the defintion of stupid has changed, then yeah pretty evidently.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 47):
Man - I've rarely seen anybody so worked up. Seriously - get a life! It's a company! Hardly a matter of epic proportions. And why do you have such a bad opinion of your fellow human - 8% increase in stupid people? Really?

That made me laugh out loud, have you seen some of the angsty and insecure posts in this thread defending FR for dear life?

I have clear and deliberated opinions on FR, no doubt, but one has to be somewhat liberal with the truth to present that as being 'worked up'.

I don't approve of government subsided free-rides.
Tonight we fly