Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:18 am

Ship 754 was retired today from Delta's fleet. This leaves only 3 -500's left in their fleet! Nail them while you still can, RIP N754DA.

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Photo © Justin Cederholm - Orlando/Tampa Aviation Photography

 
caetravlr
Posts: 858
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:23 am

Is there a press release on this somewhere? Looks like they are retiring one by one.... I will miss them.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:27 am

cool, it will make delta fleet more younger, even if it will make everybody sad...
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 2871
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:30 am

They have placed them on routes that are cheap, so people dont care what they fly. I know ATL-PBI is one of the last remaining L-1011 routes. I flew on Deltas L-1011 twice.
ATL-MCO L-1011-1
MCO-ATL L-1011-250
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:39 am

They should have retired the older L-1011-1 and 250 models first and the 500 models last being that they were the last of the series built and the youngest.
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:51 am

I was at FLL yesterday and I saw one T/O, didn't catch the registration.

G.R.
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

Retirement Schedules

Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:08 am

I got this schedule from someone at Delta back in April. Not too sure how accurate it is now(754 was supposed to be retired last month), but I'll see if I can get a more up to date one.

754 Sep 00
755 Sep 00
753 Oct 00
756 Oct 00
731 Nov 00
764 Nov 00
765 Dec 00
728 Dec 00
768 Jan 01
734 Apr 01
735 Apr 01
730 Apr 01
737 May 01
738 May 01
766 May 01
739 Jun 01
740 Aug 01
741 Aug 01
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Retirement Schedules

Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:27 am

A few words... I will miss those beautiful planes that served us for years....

  Alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
iwantanL1011
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 12:24 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:33 am



>They have placed them on routes that are cheap, so >people dont care what they fly.

no offense, but that doesn't make sense to me... they're very comfortable planes, a nice flight.. unless
your in the E row...

I think it has more to do with capacity and frequency
of flights to a destination.. I'm booked on 2 L1011 flights this year and they were not cheap! $1200 to
HNL and $400 to DFW...

 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:14 am

I think that you may both be correct. Delta does use them for their capacity. But some of the routes, such as the HNL ones, do not make Delta much money directly. Honolulu is a large Frequent Flyer destination, and Delta is not making money off of those routes directly. However, they do keep the frequent flyers happy by offering such routes.
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4935
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:38 am

Wow...I flew on N1731 in August....3 months before its scheduled to go out. What an honor.....


My next goal: fly on the last one.
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Tarantine
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2000 12:53 pm

RE: Tedski

Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:52 am

Actually, Delta's -500's are the oldest of all tristars in their current fleet. The -1 and -250 are the newest ones. The last tristars delivered to Delta was the -1 in 1982 and 1983.

RT
 
Guest

RE: Retirement Schedules

Tue Oct 17, 2000 2:45 pm

Ship 754 was originaly delivered to
Pan American Airways on April 15, 1980.

Delta Air Lines acquired this aircraft on
September 20, 1984.

Retired it on October 16, 2000

20.5 years of service, lots of people flew on this
bird all over the world.

Delta has 3 -500 series left, ships 753, 755 & 756.
(753 is scheduled to retire now on 12/01/00)
Delta has 13 other L1011's left as well. (16 total)

Last one to fly for DL is now in question...either May or Aug of 2001...stay tuned.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:20 pm

Don't know how well this will come out, but let's try anyway: this is the complete listing I received from Delta earlier this year, complete with dates of retirement, build, etc etc. Where the retirement date is given as 'Immed' this means that the aircraft was in storage in December 99.

As for the age of the L1011-500s, you'll see that the six youngest -1s (which were actually -40s) were converted to -250 specification.

Date of Delta
Model/Variant Series Build Delivery Serial No No FAA No

L-1011-385-3 -500 24/11/81 Jan 01 193H-1216 768 N768DL
L-1011-385-3 -500 30/11/81 immed 193Y-1197 763 N763DL
L-1011-385-3 -500 02/07/81 immed 193Y-1176 759 N759DA
L-1011-385-3 -500 15/04/81 immed 193Y-1194 760 N760DH
L-1011-385-3 -500 27/05/81 immed 193Y-1208 761 N761DA
L-1011-385-3 -500 21/09/81 Dec 00 193H-1206 765 N765DA
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 11/03/82 Jun 00 193C-1227 736 N736DY
L-1011-385-3 -500 11/04/80 Sep 00 193Y-1181 754 N754DL
L-1011-385-3 -500 23/05/80 Sep 00 193Y-1184 755 N755DL
L-1011-385-3 -500 06/08/80 Oct 00 193W-1189 753 N753DA
L-1011-385-3 -500 07/06/80 Oct 00 193Y-1185 756 N756DR
L-1011-385-3 -500 26/02/81 Nov 00 193H-1202 764 N764DA
L-1011-385-3 -500 15/05/81 May 01 193H-1209 767 N767DA
L-1011-385-3 -500 25/11/81 Jan 01 193H-1218 769 N769DL
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 08/05/82 May 01 193C-1228 737 N737D
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 19/07/82 May 01 193C-1234 738 N1738D
L-1011-385-3 -500 13/04/81 May 01 193H-1207 766 N766DA
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 18/12/82 Jun 01 193C-1237 739 N1739D
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 15/04/83 Aug 01 193C-1244 740 N740DA
L-1011-385-1-15 -250 12/05/83 Aug 01 193C-1245 741 N741DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 25/03/80 Jul 00 193C-1180 729 N729DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 26/06/81 Aug 00 193C-1213 732 N1732D
L-1011-385-1 -1 23/12/80 Nov 00 193C-1200 731 N1731D
L-1011-385-1 -1 18/12/81 Apr 01 193C-1225 734 N1734D
L-1011-385-1 -1 27/01/82 Apr 01 193C-1226 735 N735D
L-1011-385-1 -1 14/12/80 Apr 01 193C-1199 730 N730DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 11/12/81 May 01 193C-1224 733 N733DS


Aircraft to be sold
L-1011-385-1 -1 20/12/74 immed 193C-1097 718 N718DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 21/11/75 immed 193A-1123 786 N786DL
L-1011-385-1 -1 10/04/76 immed 193C-1135 719 N719DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 07/05/76 Mar 00 193C-1136 720 N720DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 26/06/76 immed 193C-1139 721 N721DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 29/05/77 immed 193A-1143 790 N790DL
L-1011-385-1 -1 02/12/77 immed 193C-1150 723 N723DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 20/06/79 Jun 00 193C-1167 727 N727DA
L-1011-385-1 -1 09/11/79 Dec 00 193C-1173 728 N728DA
 
User avatar
B737-112
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 1999 6:01 pm

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:22 pm

I flew on N756DR recently from SLC to LAX, why DR as opposed to DL on the reg? -Ryan
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

Long Live The TriStar!

Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:06 pm

What is going to happen to those beautiful birds? I hope someone like Air Atlanta Icelandic buy some of them.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Long Live The TriStar!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 12:22 am

Celtic Airways was supposed to get them, right?
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Long Live The TriStar!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 12:54 am

Ooops i forgot about that , cheers Dazed767
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:50 am

Celtic Airways - now renamed Caledonian Wings - are getting them. See http://www.celticairways.com/
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:21 am

Don't get too excited about Caledonian Wings flying Delta's L1011.

If you read the info on their web site carefully you'll find that they don't even have an operating certificate. Most of what Caledonian Wings discusses on their site is PLANNED to happen. Buy the Delta planes, plus spares plus tooling in December (maybe). Buy up to 40 ex-Delta L1011's (maybe). Currently in the process of acquiring $500 million in financing to cover start-up costs (you've go to be kidding.....JetBlue didn't do this good).

I think Caledonian Wings is a wannabe airline that has made a poor choice of start-up aircraft....with all the problems a new airline faces, it seems unbelievable that they are buying 3-man cockpit aircraft that are 20+ years old and have no manufacturer's support.

If Caledonian Wings ever gets off the ground, you'd better fly one of their L1011's quick as they won't be around long.....
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:44 am

Seasonedflyer - you obviously didn't read the websight right. The majority of the financing is required for the L1011 SuperStar programme, which will include re-engining the aircraft, installing new flight decks (retaining the flight engineer as there is no benefit whatsoever in a two crew flight deck on long range aircraft) increasing the MZFW and MTOW; installing additional fuel tanks and new interiors. Added to which, the majority of the funding being raised at the moment is being used by the leasing company, so that it can pay cash for the aircraft and overhauls rather than saddle itself with excessive debt.

Every airline flying started off as a 'wannabe' operation. How many have you been CEO - or senior management - of, Seasonedflyer? Surely many based on your apparent experience of startups!   

The principal benefit that the L1011 brings to the table in its present form is that it's a low cost aircraft which can can be supported at a very low cost - parts cost next to nothing; the engines burn less fuel than the DC10's CF6; and most importantly of all, the aircraft can be financed/leased in at such a low price that an airline can afford to have it sitting around or only flying a couple of hundred hours a month - something that you can't do with a new 777 or A340 which will cost you in excess of US$1.5m per month for the aircraft alone.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 6:08 am

Ceilidh, I just now read your profile and now I understand your defense of Caledonia Wings.

No, I haven't been involved in a startup airline, but I've been involved in the aviation industry to see enough startups fail for a variety of reasons. The only startup to date that has impressed me is JetBlue.....and the biggest thing they've done different to date than any other startup is buy new airplanes.

Why take on the added cost? Because they have a dependable product, low operating costs and ready support from a manufacturer.

I am intimately familiar with Delta's L1011's   and you need to be very careful if you're going to trust the health of your airline to them. Every Delta L1011 has been flown very hard and there is a line spare available for every three in the air. REGARDLESS of how cheap you can operate the aircraft, you aren't going to keep your passengers if every fourth flight fails to leave for a mechanical.

"No benefit to a two member cockpit...." Now that shows a little naiveness on your part. A three man cockpit (instead of two) means you have to hire 50% more aircrew, an extra labor cost plus the headache of additional crew scheduling issues (50% more people to worry about having available to fly an aircraft).

I'm not saying that you can't make it with an L1011, but the choice of this aircraft adds a number of concerns and potential difficulties that a newer, less sophisticated airplane wouldn't. You certainly are not improving your odds of success.

I think that you are going to find that the operating costs of the L1011 are going to far outweigh the money your are going to save in initial purchase/lease price.

Let's put it this way....Delta's total monthly profit for a new 767-400 (after capital costs, labor, fuel, etc.) is more than that made by a paid for L1011 flying on the same route......and the 764 has fewer seats.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 6:26 am

By the way Ceilidh, we here at the office are having a hard time piecing your business plan together.

Hopefully we're missing something and you've got some insight into PIC pay that we don't. You will never be able to establish base pay for an L1011 Captain at U.S. $96,000 per year.

Delta is currently paying their Int'l L1011 Captains $19,440 per month (base). You may start your Captains at $8000 per month, but about 90 days into operations they're going to unionize and then you're going to pay what every other airline pays. You probably should count on your crew costs doubling (at least).
 
Guest

Ceilidh

Wed Oct 18, 2000 11:40 am

Well if you've stopped laughing after having read Ceilidh's profile you don't have a sense of humour. If you still think he's genuine do a little checking on his claimed credentials. Unfortunately his www.africargo.com virtual airline website has just been turned off, you get a much better glimpse of the man in action there.
He claims a lot, but has a history of fantasy airlines and aviation deals, and a long line of disgruntled people left in his wake claiming to be owed money.
Hmmmmm
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

New News, Not 3 Left, 5 Are!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 11:50 am

Sorry all, 5 -500's are left.

753
755
756
764
765
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 1:51 pm

Ceilidh , I think you are correct, but
can you support your claims with numbers..............


Kevin
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:19 pm

Ceildih, I do believe that for a charter operation
like Caledonian Wings an old L1011 is the correct choice.

But this is not the best choice for heavy usage operation.



Kevin
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:53 pm

Kevin - you're 100% correct: not least because three engines will always burn more fuel than two - it's a sad fact of life. However, there are occasions - such as when an airline doesn't have ETOPS certification - when they are invaluable; whatever the cost.

What numbers do you want? Check out www.celticairways.com - the numbers are all there.

Seasoned Flyer - I was wondering when you'd realise who I was!  I agree that they have been flown hard; but that's what the L10 likes best. It hates sitting around on the ground doing nothing - ask Air Atlanta.

Bear in mind that the package we're getting from DL is everything L1011 - every spare part, every engine, every airframe, every simulator, all tooling, the contents of the L1011 wheel, brake, APU and RB211 overhaul facilities, all documentation, design authorities etc etc. As you rightly pointed out, DL is getting out of the L1011 business and it's a huge volume of stuff.

However, it means that we - and our contracted suppliers - can and will do everything that DL has been doing.

As for crew pay, remember that over here we pay our guys a lot less than DL - and a heck of a lot less than the DL crews want to be paid!   That said, with allowances and flight pay crew members can expect to add at least a couple of thousand dollars a month to their basic salary; more for ACMI contracts in 'iffy' parts of the world. Remember, there are many operations, even in your part of the world (the Caribbean, for example) where crews are being paid US$5k/mo or less.

This of course has a significant benefit for us. American Trans Air offers out their L1011-500s at US$5,800 per hour, with a minimum utilisation of 280 hours per month - dropping to US$5,100 thereafter. We offer the same aircraft at US$4,500 per hour with just a 200 hour minimum - dropping to US$4,250 per hour thereafter. From a marketing perspective, who's going to get the business - ATA or us?

One thing I really must take issue with you on is the lack of benefit of a three crew flight deck. You'll remember I said: there is no benefit whatsoever in a two crew flight deck on long range aircraft - the emphasis being on long range aircraft. A three crew aircraft has an allowable duty time of 12 hours - a two crew one 8 hours. This means that I could use the same crew to do a round trip involving say four hours flight time each way without difficulty - a two crew aircraft would require a second crew, with all the costs that entails. Long flights require a heavy crew - one, or sometimes even two - crew members on the part of a two crew aircraft; again, I can accomplish those flights with my normal complement. Finally, this side of the pond we use professional flight engineers who are capable of identifying the potential problem, arranging required parts with base and signing off the aircraft if it requires any work - a two crew operation couldn't do that!
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Wed Oct 18, 2000 9:52 pm

Ceilidh,

Good luck to you Ceilidh, but I don't think you're going to make it.

You won't be able to manage the maintenance of the L1011's the way Delta does because you won't have access to the same infrastructure. You may have the tools and assemblies and parts, but you won't have the inspectors and vast numbers of mechanices with massive L1011 experience that Delta has.

What this means is that, regardless of how much refurbishment your L1011's get, their maintenance costs are going to be variable.

In the airline industry we try and make as many costs 'fixed' as possible (fuel hedging is a great example). The more 'variable' costs you have, the more at risk your business plan is. That's why JetBlue's business plan is basically sound as they have fewer 'variable' costs than a normal startup airline......if anything goes wrong with an airplane (for three years), Airbus has to fix it.

Predicating a company's success on a variable cost as volatile as L1011 maintenance is not a good business decision.

And like I said before, starting an airline is a risky enough business without introducing more intangibles.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:28 am

I agree - and that's exactly what we'll be doing - entering into various 'power by the hour' support agreements covering line and heavy maintenance; component overhaul and engine, APU and landing gear support. Obviously, it ends up potentially costing a bit more than if we were to do it in house - but as you correctly pointed out that sort of infrastructure takes time and money to establish. Far better to buy it in from people like Marshalls, Kellstrom and GE Engine Support etc. That means, in turn, we have a guaranteed fixed cost that we can pass to clients as part of the ACMI rate.

In any case, though, the costs of maintaining an L1011 are considerably less than maintaining a current generation one. To start with, the spares are so cheap you buy them by the tonne rather than by part number (well, nearly!   ) and the type is tried and tested and therefore well known to those companies that specialise in it. Contrast that with a five year old Airbus or Boeing - now out of warranty, the maintenance costs are really starting to hit hard - with some of the avionics costing as much as - or more than - an L1011!
Parts are hard to come by; and when you can get them, you're paying list or list plus a premium.

The only way to avoid this is to do what Singapore Airlines are famous for and buy new aircraft and rotate them just as the warranties expire. Of course, you then have to factor in a large amount of money for depreciation.

Swings and roundabouts, really ...
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:02 am

Practically your entire website is devoted to the L1011. It's a little strange you highlight the aircraft..and not the destinations. Fully 90% of your customers could care less which aircraft they sit in.

You're just an enthusiast.
This is not a real airline.
It never will be.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:02 pm

greggj - you obviously didn't read the website properly. We're planning to be an ACMI operator - which means that the only thing of relevance is the aircraft; which we lease to other airlines. Kinda like Atlas.    

The charter services will use roughly 10% of the aircraft - and there is around that much of the current website dedicated to them.
 
Guest

Celtic

Fri Oct 20, 2000 11:19 am

No, Ceilidh we´ve all read the website.
It´s not as much fun as your fantasy Africargo website. Shame that one was shut down. Didn´t you pay the bills there?
When are you going to be putting the aircraft colours onto MS Flight Simulator and recruiting virtual pilots for your virtual airline?
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:46 pm

F_boot: get a life. I don't call CL44s, 707s and IL76s fantasy - even if the 707s and IL76s were chartered in.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Fri Oct 20, 2000 4:35 pm

f_boot, I can vouch for Celidh because I have worked with him for some years. I know who you are and I know why you have so much time on your hands since being fired by him for enadngering the lives of the crew and having a serious attitude problem. Since then youve seemed to make it your lifes work to cyberstalk him here and on pprune. Get a life!! (or a psychiatrist)
 
BOEING747-700
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:21 am

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sat Oct 21, 2000 12:16 am

Is Air Transat of Canada taking any of these L1011-500's to replace the 11-100's?
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sat Oct 21, 2000 2:22 am

No, they got theirs from Air Lanka.
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:42 am

Ha ha ha. ... worked with him for some years ... Ha ha ha ... fired by him ... Ha ha ha
I like that, I have time to making postings so I'm unemployed, Ceilidh has time to make postings so he's a successful CEO. Ha ha ha
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:21 pm

Nope, just effective time management!
 
Skyteam
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:50 pm

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:19 pm

I will cry when the last Delta L-1011 is retired. I love the L-1011 so much!!!!! My first flight was on an L-1011, I've flown on L-1011's the most, and I have flown the most miles on L-1011's. Can anyone please tell me when the last Delta L-1011 flight is?

LONG LIVE THE TRISTAR

SKYTEAM
 
Guest

RE: Another DL L10 Retired, Only 3 -500's Left!

Sun Oct 22, 2000 5:15 pm

Give it a rest f_boot - and anyway youre only allowed one ID on here. The REAL Hugmonster has been alerted to your hijacking of his handle and he'll be contacting the administrators to have the postings removed.
 
Guest

Ceilidh

Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:27 am

Give it a rest Guvnor - and anyway youre only allowed one ID on here. The REAL SAS23 has been alerted to your hijacking of his handle and he'll be contacting the administrators to have the postings removed.

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