delta88
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Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:05 pm

Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380? Is there an Issue with massport, or do airlines think that it wont be profitable enough to operate? The A380 can takeoff out of Boston comfortably and there is some Gate Space in Terminal E, the A380 can fit on Taxiways without any issue, and has no issues with landing or taking off (Noise, to much dust or destroying any airport property on takeoff) so why not?
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:09 pm

Weel, at first thought, there are not many routes or airlines that can support an A380 to BOS.

At most, maybe, AF and LH during summer months ... is there any other?!!
 
delta88
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:12 pm

Well you have Singapore Airlines that flies into JFK, with JAL starting to get the Asian market, Singapore could fly into JFK and then refuel and make a quickrun to Boston.
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RobertS975
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 1):
Well you have Singapore Airlines that flies into JFK, with JAL starting to get the Asian market, Singapore could fly into JFK and then refuel and make a quickrun to Boston.

OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting delta88 (Thread starter):

Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380?

Because there's 0 routes from Boston that require that many seats. Just because a jet can fit at an airport doesn't remotely mean there's demand for it.

Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Because there's 0 routes from Boston that require that many seats. Just because a jet can fit at an airport doesn't remotely mean there's demand for it.

  

BUT...we talk about 'demand' on a daily basis. Who's to say an airline couldn't make a go of an A380 on a 1x or 2x per week basis? Is that even feasible? If there are 600 people who go from Boston to, say, Dubai via various connections on a weekly basis, then Emirates could fly one weekly A380 into Boston and scoop them all up.

I know the feasibility of this is minimal (because the passenger who needs to fly on some other day of the week won't get 'scooped up) which is why the 787 via Qatar will likely be the very first Middle East service into Boston.

I cannot think of any international route out of Boston--not even London--that would make sense for an A380.

But if they could fly a A380 from Boston to the Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut, that might work. I think demand = supply there

 
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:40 pm

There may not be demand to Boston, but from Boston, Boston is in New England, New England gets miserable Winters, even once Weekly service to Europe or connections to JFK and LAX to fly to Warmer destinations might be feasible, as long as its a lower price, you could in Theory get a significant amount of passengers, i mean the 787 daily flight is usually close to Full, so you may not fill it but you could use it to your Advantage, especially in Advertising. JAL used that, saying they were the First to Boston in a 787, and First Back to Asia, so you never know....
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:42 pm

And since there is no market for A380 service to/from BOS, Massport has done little infrastructure improvements to support A380 service. There is a limited specific taxi route an A380 must follow at Logan and currently only 1 gate can support an A380. And it basically uses 2 gates because it makes the adjacent gate unusable so it inhibits operations at the international building.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:44 pm

But if Airlines show intrest, Massport might spend a little extra to Improve gate Spacing, im sure given time it'll pay off, Rome wasnt built in a Day, Airlines dont always fill the aircraft, but if the Right Airline flies to the Right Destination, it could work, Bostonians always like to get to places quickly
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting delta88 (Reply 8):
But if Airlines show intrest, Massport might spend a little extra to Improve gate Spacing, im sure given time it'll pay off, Rome wasnt built in a Day, Airlines dont always fill the aircraft, but if the Right Airline flies to the Right Destination, it could work, Bostonians always like to get to places quickly

Who really cares if there is 380 service or not? BOS still is very well served to Europe and sees a great variety of wide bodies to LHR, MAD, ZRH, FCO, MUC, AMS, etc.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting delta88 (Reply 8):
Bostonians always like to get to places quickly

Which is exactly why the 787 will do very well in Boston.

The A380 won't work in Boston until a major international airline decides to open a hub in BOS (or JetBlue starts int'l service with a fleet of A380's).
I understand you want to see the A380 there but unfortunately, much like PHL, I don't see BOS getting an A380 anytime in the next 10 years or so.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 9):
Who really cares if there is 380 service or not? BOS still is very well served to Europe and sees a great variety of wide bodies to LHR, MAD, ZRH, FCO, MUC, AMS, etc.

oh yeah ... driving past Logan in the afternoon is always a treat! With all those European tails next to Terminal E ... and also the JAL tail in mid-day .... who needs the Manatees!   
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting jcarv (Reply 7):
And it basically uses 2 gates because it makes the adjacent gate unusable so it inhibits operations at the international building.

Compounding this is that any time an A380 lumbers into Boston on a diversion, it is usually doing so when all the other European inbounds are lumbering in. 'No room at the inn,' so to speak. BUT if it is a weather-related diversion, does it even need to pull up to a gate anyway?
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:20 pm

380 regular service would be great, but I think we've got a better shot to see an LH 748 first.

...or a KE 748  
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.

Ok, first off, this is a forum where people are encouraged to post or reply. Serious or not it's not up to you to dictate when the discussion ends. Some people take this stuff wayyyyy too seriously. If you don't like his post, don't respond....

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.

That's not true. You can see year round BA, AF, LH and occasionally VS 747's at BOS. Generally when AF goes down to 1x CDG and LH 1x FRA in the winter they both send 747's. BA ALWAYS has at least 1, if not 2, of the 3 LHR flights on 74's.

During the summer time when AA/BA have around 6 flights combined, you don't think 2 or 3 of those could be combined into 1 A380 when BA gets there's? Granted I know other destinations will see them first, but at some point one has to think BOS could be a contender (if not to free up slots alone).
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
But if they could fly a A380 from Boston to the Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut, that might work. I think demand = supply there

Haha yeah maybe at, what, 3 bucks a seat? Gotta compete with those busses!

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 14):
That's not true. You can see year round BA, AF, LH and occasionally VS 747's at BOS.

It is, though. Neither BA, AF, LH, or VS fly their 747s year-round. At any time of the year you can usually catch 1 or 2 of them, yes, but none of them are year-round. BA goes to a 777, LH goes to an A343/346, AF goes to an A343, and VS goes to an A346 when they can't fill their 744s.
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):

Out of the handful of A380 diversions BOS has had, AF diverted twice from JFK on weather diversions when they first received the A380 and they cancelled. Continued on the next day with passengers.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
BUT...we talk about 'demand' on a daily basis. Who's to say an airline couldn't make a go of an A380 on a 1x or 2x per week basis? Is that even feasible? If there are 600 people who go from Boston to, say, Dubai via various connections on a weekly basis, then Emirates could fly one weekly A380 into Boston and scoop them all up.

NO. EK is like the WN of longhaul travel. They tend not to do weekly or even non-daily service, and if they did, they wouldn't send an a380. The best chance I can see of EK at BOS is a seasonal 77L, MAYBE.

As for a380s @ BOS, I agree with everybody else. Just because airlines fly 747s there, means they can make a 747 work. It doesn't mean that every 747 route can obviously be handled with an a380.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:03 am

Is this how an airport is going to be measured? If they 380 service or not? I would much rather have a solid variety of foreign carriers flying service to a solid array of cities than having the 380 come.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:06 am

I don't think it would be out of the question to see it eventually, just not now. BOS-LHR has 1350 PDEW (I got this number from the article on BOS on wikipedia, divided by 2, then 365- if this is wrong, feel free to correct me!) and that is mostly local traffic since there is no hub here. Granted, some of that goes to DL and VS, but if other factors come into play (B6 joining OneWorld, for example), I don't think an A380 wouldn't be too unlikely. I'd certainly like to fly it myself some day!
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
It is, though. Neither BA, AF, LH, or VS fly their 747s year-round. At any time of the year you can usually catch 1 or 2 of them, yes, but none of them are year-round. BA goes to a 777, LH goes to an A343/346, AF goes to an A343, and VS goes to an A346 when they can't fill their 744s

I encourage you to look at BA's LHR schedule where you will see AT LEAST 1 744 a day to Heathrow. Summer schedule is 2x 744's. AF, LH, VS I will agree tend to fluctuate more and will change aircraft. BA, however, is a sure thing year round.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:25 pm

IIRC, there are only 5 airports in the U.S. that either have/had their airfileds upgraded to support regularly scheduled A380 (which is one FAA Group Aircraft class higher than that of a 747 (excluding the 748)) operations and/or obtained permission from the FAA for such (JFK likely falls in the latter category).

I do not believe (if someone else knows otherwise, feel free to chime in) that BOS is one of those 5 airports that either has upgraded nor obtained permission/waivers from the FAA to support regular Group VI aircraft (the A380 and 748 are classified as such) operations. The FAA Aircraft Group classification is based on wingspan ranges w/the 747-200/300/400 being on the top end of the Group V aircraft class.

The main issue with such large aircraft is not only terminal space & gate layout, but also airfield layout; particularly minimum offset distances between parallel taxiways and/or parallel runway/taxiway layouts. The FAA established the offset distance criteria per each aircraft group.

Given how long (30-35 years) it took to shoehorn a unidirectional commuter runway (14-32) at BOS; I don't see them upgrading their airfields for regularly-scheduled Group VI aircraft operations anytime soon.
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting delta88 (Thread starter):
Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380?

Simple: BOS is not A380 ready and will likely not be any time soon.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.

Nonesense!

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):

Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.

Wrong. LH, AF, and BA operate 744's all Winter long.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
The main issue with such large aircraft is not only terminal space & gate layout, but also airfield layout; particularly minimum offset distances between parallel taxiways and/or parallel runway/taxiway layouts. The FAA established the offset distance criteria per each aircraft group.

  
Simply put, there is no space at BOS to make it a Cat VI airport without significant, and very costly changes, if at all possible. A one-off diversion is hard enough to handle, and allowed as an exception and all ground ops come to a compelte halt. Usually the plane doesn't even come to the terminal, it just sits at a remote stand. When it does come to the terminal, the gate next to is has to be closed. At peak time that is not an option, hence why it stays at a remote stand, usually.

But the biggest issue is not even the terminal, but the taxiways. There isn't enough clearance between the taxiways to allow an A380 to taxi without halting all other airport movements.

BOS-LHR, BOS-FRA, and possibly BOS-CDG could easily be operated with an A380. The demand is certainly there. The great thing about BOS from Europe is that it's only 6 hours away and airlines could schedule the A380 in between their long haul routes. BA, LH, and AF all operate 744's even in Winter, and they all have multiple frequencies in the Summer. The thought that BOS-LHR and BOS-FRA don't have enough demand for an A380 even if just seasonal, is ridiculous.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:12 pm

People also said IAH wouldn't get an A380 and look what happened there. I'm not saying BOS will get the A380, but I'm saying weirder things have happened. With that said, if an AA/US merger plays through and all the speculation about BOS growth turns to be true, it wouldn't surprise me to see a BA A380 there in the next few years... Just my   
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:27 pm

BA would seem the most likely candidate to introduce the A380 to BOS given that they currently offer the most transatlantic seats. However, it would seem unlikely they would sacrifice a frequency, so without justification for a considerable uptick in the number of seats offered, why bump up capacity? (Remember JV partner AA also kicks in a few hundred seats per day). Second issue is lack of dual jetway gates at Logan - not an issue for diversions, but presumably a problem for regular service.

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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 10):
Quoting delta88 (Reply 8):
Bostonians always like to get to places quickly

Which is exactly why the 787 will do very well in Boston.

The A380 won't work in Boston until a major international airline decides to open a hub in BOS

Well... I think it it might be possible that some of the existing 744 service could upgrade to 380 as far as demand is concerned. Or that a BOS-LHR/FRA 380 service would generate enough interest among those who look for the lowest price flights to secondary destinations within Europe to make the hub model work for BA/LH.

So I think the demand might be there. Or at least this possibility should not be ruled out. HOWEVER, I think we will not see 380 service to Boston for an entirely different reason: there are far too small number of A380s around for some years to come. If you are BA, would you deploy A380 to Boston before you've covered New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami, and maybe Dallas and Denver? Those markets would be in my opinion better, so before BA has a very large number of A380s, Boston is not going to happen.

Quoting max550 (Reply 10):
(or JetBlue starts int'l service with a fleet of A380's).

Now that would be a sight!
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 10):
Which is exactly why the 787 will do very well in Boston.

   BOS is one of those cities that will benefit more by fragmentation than trunk route expansion.

I see BOS also benefiting from the NEO/MAX once they are TATL ready. (It will happen, it is just a question of when.)

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 17):
NO. EK is like the WN of longhaul travel. They tend not to do weekly or even non-daily service

Actually, non-daily used to be their specialty. It is only the last few years that the bulk of their flights went to a minimum of daily. However, for BOS, with the significant competition from BA, LH, AF, and KL, EK is likely to look elsewhere first. I expect two or three other cities to see EK in North America before Boston.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 17):
The best chance I can see of EK at BOS is a seasonal 77L, MAYBE.

I would agree. But that will take the new high-MTOW A380s with the wing twist to arrive in quantity to free up those 77Ls. So BOS is over a year away IMHO.

I expect before BOS:
ORD
MIA
LAX back to 2X/day
JFK to 3X/day
IAH to the A380.

and possibly even EWR!



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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 25):
Denver?

  
I know this is about BOS, but I think LH will be the most likely candidate for an A380 to DEN
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 23):
People also said IAH wouldn't get an A380 and look what happened there.

And ATL  
Quoting Stratacruiser (Reply 24):
BA would seem the most likely candidate to introduce the A380 to BOS given that they currently offer the most transatlantic seats. However, it would seem unlikely they would sacrifice a frequency, so without justification for a considerable uptick in the number of seats offered, why bump up capacity?

They don't need to give up frequencies. BA and AA have near identical departure and arrival times. You could easily combine 2 into 1 and save yourself a pair of LHR slots. BA214 departs at 10:20pm and AA124 departs at 10:25pm. BA has a ton of frequencies to JFK and I'd be shocked if JFK is not their first A380 destination in the US.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 25):
If you are BA, would you deploy A380 to Boston before you've covered New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami, and maybe Dallas and Denver?

If they could? Absolutely. Rumor has it that BOS is BA's 2nd or 3rd most profitable market in the US so you can bet that if BOS was A380 ready, it would be one of BA's first A380 cities in the US.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 23):
People also said IAH wouldn't get an A380 and look what happened there.

A few things:

1. IAH is a much newer airport than BOS; it opened in 1969, just when the first 747s started coming on line.

2. It's located about 23 miles outside of Downtown Houston whereas BOS is essentially a peninsula and is in very close proximity to Downtown Boston; which gives IAH a greater ability to expand.

3. Not every international carrier serving BOS uses the 747 on every one of their routes.

4. It's worth noting that many carriers that initially opted for the 747 back then decided that it was too big of an aircraft for their operations and went with slightly smaller DC-10s and/or L1011s instead. Similar thoughts would likely apply regarding the A380 or even the 748.
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
Wrong. LH, AF, and BA operate 744's all Winter long.

Okay, obviously you're right. I mean, AFR333 is a 777-200 for the entire week of 12/17 (in fact, every day in December I've checked is a 777), but they always fly 747's. You got me.
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
BOS is one of those cities that will benefit more by fragmentation than trunk route expansion.

And exactly how will BOS accomodate this fragmentation in an airport that can't expand? BOS is the perfect A380 airport, if only there was the space and money to make the necessary improvements. Boston is an area that sees greater than average demand for air travel and yet there's little room to grow the infrastructure, and more movements will only be faced with protest because the airport is smack in the middle of a heavily populated residential area. The only way to grow is by increasing the size of the planes.

This problem will become more critical once AF/LH/BA retire their 744's. Because they can't operate their A380's or 748i's here it will mean a reduction in capacity to their next bigger plane. But that's still a long way away.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
BOS-LHR, BOS-FRA, and possibly BOS-CDG could easily be operated with an A380. The demand is certainly there. The great thing about BOS from Europe is that it's only 6 hours away and airlines could schedule the A380 in between their long haul routes. BA, LH, and AF all operate 744's even in Winter, and they all have multiple frequencies in the Summer. The thought that BOS-LHR and BOS-FRA don't have enough demand for an A380 even if just seasonal, is ridiculous.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
If they could? Absolutely. Rumor has it that BOS is BA's 2nd or 3rd most profitable market in the US so you can bet that if BOS was A380 ready, it would be one of BA's first A380 cities in the US.

Finally, someone who actually KNOWS a thing or two about the BOS market. The point is this - BOS will most likely NOT see an A380 due to infrastructure limitations. However, it is not due to a lack of demand. The fact that someone would suggest DEN or DFW would see it before BOS is a little absurd. If AA or UA had ordered the A380, they might be contenders....otherwise, each of those airport only see single daily (sometimes not even) flights to Europe/Asia...no chance to support an A380.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 30):
Okay, obviously you're right. I mean, AFR333 is a 777-200 for the entire week of 12/17 (in fact, every day in December I've checked is a 777), but they always fly 747's. You got me.

Ok, you got lucky and yes, AF is using a 772 this winter for the first time. You're quick to point that out, yet you can't admit that you're wrong and that BA and LH due in fact utilize 744's year-round. Just admit BOS is not a 744 seasonal station and move on....
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 32):
Just admit BOS is not a 744 seasonal station and move on....

Haha I would if I hadn't been watching them all fly something other than 744s year after year.

I said you can catch a 747 at any time, which is correct because LH, BA, and AF all fly them at various times of the year. You guys said they always fly 747's, which is incorrect, because, as I've "luckily" pointed out, they don't. I'm not really sure what the issue is anyway, are you embarrassed by a 777?
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
And ATL

That was supposed to be *very* expensive and yet it happened.    BOS will too. We're only talking a small number of gates.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
And exactly how will BOS accomodate this fragmentation in an airport that can't expand?

Today there are still some slots. I see opportunity to further connect BOS to Asia and eventually the mid-east. Long term they will go A380.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
This problem will become more critical once AF/LH/BA retire their 744's. Because they can't operate their A380's or 748i's here it will mean a reduction in capacity to their next bigger plane. But that's still a long way away.

As you note, a long way away. It isn't as tough to build A380 ready gates as some speculate, so I believe it will happen. But for the next 5 years, I expect more 787 expansion. Airports have an amazing ability to fit in 'just one more' flight.

Perhaps BOS will be the 'poster child' airport for the 777X.   There won't be many of those. BOS and SEA are the only two in the US I could think of. Heck, globally the list is only three with the addition of BOM. Otherwise, I'm not aware of any airports that will have the demand for the A380/748I that wouldn't be able to accommodate the VLAs.

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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 23):
People also said IAH wouldn't get an A380 and look what happened there. I'm
Quoting airbazar (Reply 28):
And ATL

BIG difference between IAH/ATL and BOS. For one, IAH is a HUGE Star Alliance hub, with extensive connections to help fill the a380. Same with ATL and KE. BIG SkyTeam hub, with MASSIVE connections.

With BOS, there are just DL's few regional flights and the O&D market (for AF) For LH, B6 could help, but not THAT much. BA is the most likely candidate, but not until they cover all the bases for their larger USA markets, i.e.:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 25):
New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami, and maybe Dallas and Denver?
Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.
Wrong. LH, AF, and BA operate 744's all Winter long.

NOT wrong.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 33):
Haha I would if I hadn't been watching them all fly something other than 744s year after year.

I said you can catch a 747 at any time, which is correct because LH, BA, and AF all fly them at various times of the year. You guys said they always fly 747's, which is incorrect, because, as I've "luckily" pointed out, they don't. I'm not really sure what the issue is anyway, are you embarrassed by a 777?

I have also seen that. Last year, AF sent a340s to BOS as well. And it does sound like they are one of those people who thinks their airport is the best, and that it can support ther biggest aircraft, all the time. And if not, airlines should still fly them there, anyway and everybody else is wrong for thinking rationally.
 
N766UA
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 35):
And it does sound like they are one of those people who thinks their airport is the best, and that it can support ther biggest aircraft, all the time. And if not, airlines should still fly them there, anyway and everybody else is wrong for thinking rationally.

I agree. It's funny too, because Logan was my airport for years up until about 4 months ago. I think maybe their point is that 747's are not rare, which is true. 747's are almost always at Logan. A daily, year round 747 from AF, LH, and BA, however, only exists in the imagination. Yep, they all fly them to Logan, but no, they don't all always fly them to Logan.

That having been said, if it makes anyone feel better I really don't care anymore and am more than happy to concede that every airline flies 747s into Logan constantly and that most routes, including PQI, can and probably should support an A388.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
A few things:

1. IAH is a much newer airport than BOS; it opened in 1969, just when the first 747s started coming on line.

2. It's located about 23 miles outside of Downtown Houston whereas BOS is essentially a peninsula and is in very close proximity to Downtown Boston; which gives IAH a greater ability to expand.

3. Not every international carrier serving BOS uses the 747 on every one of their routes.

4. It's worth noting that many carriers that initially opted for the 747 back then decided that it was too big of an aircraft for their operations and went with slightly smaller DC-10s and/or L1011s instead. Similar thoughts would likely apply regarding the A380 or even the 748.

1. IAH didn't get as much land as it owns now until the past ten years when they bought all the unused land being occupied by trees between 8R/26L and FM 1960 and cut down all those trees.

2. JFK is essentially in the same situation and is more land restricted, if not the same as BOS.

3. That's true, but tremendous growth in air travel is expected to happen in the coming years/decades.

4. True as well, but the international airlines that fly to BOS today fly 747s and 777s and A340s. BA flies 747s into BOS today, and with AA supposedly to grow BOS and growth with the city/region itself, it is not unthinkable that BOS can sustain 1x daily or even 2-5x weekly A380 service on BA.

Whether or not it is high on BA's A380 priority list, is a different thing entirely.  
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aeroblogger
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting delta88 (Thread starter):
Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380?

I've been wondering, while YQX gets lots of 757 TATL diversions, why doesn't somebody start scheduling 757 TATL services?
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
with AA supposedly to grow BOS and growth with the city/region itself

Really? That's news. All they've done is shrink in Boston, and they are nconsequential or nonexistent across the region (MHT/PWM/PVD).
 
jumpjets
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 32):
You're quick to point that out, yet you can't admit that you're wrong and that BA and LH due in fact utilize 744's year-round

Don't want to seem picky - but just chose a few random dates between December 2012 and February 2013 and on all dates ba.com is showing 3x 777 service to Boston - the 744 only reappears in March. Meanwhile LH offers a mix of 744 and A330.

So in my book there is some seasonal downgauging and if you want a 744 to BOS in the winter you better fly LH from FRA.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 38):
I've been wondering, while YQX gets lots of 757 TATL diversions, why doesn't somebody start scheduling 757 TATL services?

Why would having more 757 TATL service effect the diversions into YQX?
 
alphaomega
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.
Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Because there's 0 routes from Boston that require that many seats. Just because a jet can fit at an airport doesn't remotely mean there's demand for it.

Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.

Incorrect, LH and BA operate the 744s year-round, only AF changes from 2 744s to 1 772 as they are doing this winter, and AF have actually entertained the A380 as a summer seasonal to replace the current 2x daily in the summer. IMO AF and LH are the only ones who could ever support an A380, and even then only during the summer - possibly BA but I think they have an advantage with their frequencies over DL, AA, and VS so probably not.

Gate space may available but only if a current operator AF, LH, BA replaces a current flight with an A380. E8A is the only gate that can currently support an A380 (and even then only with 1 jetbridge) and when this happens E8B (which can handle up to a 767) is unusable.Currently in the afternoon/evening at Terminal E all gates are occupied, which surprisingly hasn't created an issue with delayed flights yet this summer (not many delays!).

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
BOS-LHR, BOS-FRA, and possibly BOS-CDG could easily be operated with an A380. The demand is certainly there. The great thing about BOS from Europe is that it's only 6 hours away and airlines could schedule the A380 in between their long haul routes. BA, LH, and AF all operate 744's even in Winter, and they all have multiple frequencies in the Summer. The thought that BOS-LHR and BOS-FRA don't have enough demand for an A380 even if just seasonal, is ridiculous.

True story!

Quoting N766UA (Reply 30):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):
Wrong. LH, AF, and BA operate 744's all Winter long.

Okay, obviously you're right. I mean, AFR333 is a 777-200 for the entire week of 12/17 (in fact, every day in December I've checked is a 777), but they always fly 747's. You got me.

AF is a 772 all winter (in the past they operate with an A343) but they will be adding First Class service from Oct 29, which is the reason for the 772.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 13):
380 regular service would be great, but I think we've got a better shot to see an LH 748 first.

Nope, I wish too. 748 is a Cat VI airplane just like the A380 so it can't operate here.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
That was supposed to be *very* expensive and yet it happened. BOS will too. We're only talking a small number of gates.[...] Today there are still some slots

The gates and slots are the least of the problems. Even Terminal E could be easily converted, relatively speaking, that is   From what I understand, the biggest problem is the taxiway and runway separation to allow for Cat VI operations.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
As you note, a long way away. It isn't as tough to build A380 ready gates as some speculate, so I believe it will happen.

I hope you're right. It would be awesome to see a BA A380 and LH 748i here   

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):

Perhaps BOS will be the 'poster child' airport for the 777X.

That will probably be a Cat VI as well. The biggest issue here is wingspan. However, the more cat VI airplanes there are flying around the better the case to invest in making BOS a cat VI airport.
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
IAH didn't get as much land as it owns now until the past ten years when they bought all the unused land being occupied by trees between 8R/26L and FM 1960 and cut down all those trees.

Fair enough but BOS' airfield is essentially the same size as it's been since the 1960s.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
JFK is essentially in the same situation and is more land restricted, if not the same as BOS.

IIRC, JFK's airfield is more massive than BOS'. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, JFK either upgraded their taxiway layouts to accomodate Group VI aircraft like the A380 & 748 or obtained a waiver from the FAA to conduct regularly scheduled Group VI aricraft operations. To my knowledge, BOS via Massport has made no such provisions as of yet.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
That's true, but tremendous growth in air travel is expected to happen in the coming years/decades.

We've been hearing that prediction for decades. Due to several economic recessions (not to mention the post-9/11 downturn a decade ago and the current toilet status of the economy); that growth hasn't been as large as originally predicted.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 37):
but the international airlines that fly to BOS today fly 747s and 777s and A340s. BA flies 747s into BOS today, and with AA supposedly to grow BOS and growth with the city/region itself, it is not unthinkable that BOS can sustain 1x daily or even 2-5x weekly A380 service on BA.

Again, the issue is not large aircraft in general but rather the largest of aircraft. The 747 (100-400 series), 777 & A340 are all Group V aircraft or smaller and most airports serving major cities upgraded their airfields to handle Group V aircraft decades ago. Airlines upgrading to a 747-400 at most airports don't require either an airfield upgrade and/or special permission from the FAA to operate at those airports.

Use of Group VI aircraft like the A380 & 748 for scheduled service at airports are essentially game changers and the current economic factors, airline market and regulation climate is completely different than what it was when the 747-100 first rolled out.
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HUYfan
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:45 pm

I work for BA, and operate the Boston on a regular basis.

We certainly do operate 744 year round on the route. At least once a day in the winter, and normally twice a day in the summer.

On a side not, they are normally full in my experiences.

I would'nt expect BA to operate the 380 to Boston with a small fleet of only 12, as they are needed elsewhere. Frequency is BA's biggest advantage on the BOS.

Kind regards

Mike
 
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 43):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):

Perhaps BOS will be the 'poster child' airport for the 777X.

That will probably be a Cat VI as well. The biggest issue here is wingspan. However, the more cat VI airplanes there are flying around the better the case to invest in making BOS a cat VI airport.

The wingspan for the Boeing 777-200/300 is 199 feet-11 inches; which is well within the Group V aircraft range (wingspan between 171-214 feet). I could not find anything regarding the wingspan of the 777X variant. If the wingspan isn't wider than 214 feet, then it can operate at other airports that already handle the 777-200/300.

In comparison, the Boeing 747-400 has a 211 feet-5 inch wingspan, which is near the edge of the Group V zone. The newer 747-8 derivative has wingspan of 224 feet-7 inches which places it in the Group VI zone.
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clrd4t8koff
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 35):
I have also seen that. Last year, AF sent a340s to BOS as well. And it does sound like they are one of those people who thinks their airport is the best, and that it can support ther biggest aircraft, all the time. And if not, airlines should still fly them there, anyway and everybody else is wrong for thinking rationally.

AF did send A340's....as the 2nd daily to CDG. The winter, which was 1x daily, was a 747 and carried through the summer.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 40):
Don't want to seem picky - but just chose a few random dates between December 2012 and February 2013 and on all dates ba.com is showing 3x 777 service to Boston - the 744 only reappears in March. Meanwhile LH offers a mix of 744 and A330.

Completely wrong....just did your little exercise, went to ba.com and plugged in 1/5/2013 BOS-LHR BA #214 is IN FACT A 747. Up your game buddy or withhold the erroneous info.
 
MAV88
Posts: 133
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 45):
I work for BA, and operate the Boston on a regular basis.

We certainly do operate 744 year round on the route. At least once a day in the winter, and normally twice a day in the summer.

On a side not, they are normally full in my experiences.

I would'nt expect BA to operate the 380 to Boston with a small fleet of only 12, as they are needed elsewhere. Frequency is BA's biggest advantage on the BOS.

Kind regards

Mike

Well said. There are only a small number of North American cities where BA will see a big need to send the 380. Miami, Atlanta, Denver, Dallas and Houston are not those cities.
 
jumpjets
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RE: Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston

Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 47):
Up your game buddy or withhold the erroneous info.

Your petulant attitude doesn't really merit me wasting any more of my time on your views - but just to encourage you to think more widely try 20th Jan and 6th Feb 2013. I have tried bookings on those dates via 3 separate websites and they are all showing 3x 777 on BA metal.

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