caleb1
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JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:27 pm

I was on a UA P.S. flight from LAX to JFK a couple of weeks ago and was listening to Channel 9 on approach to JFK. I was both blown away by, and in awe of, the rapid-fire speed at which the JFK controllers issued instructions to pilots both in the air and on the ground. I have a Private Pilot's license and although I haven't flown in years, I am still familiar with the language and terminology of ATC. The exchanges I heard at JFK between controllers and pilots, however, was practically indecipherable to me due to their speed. Granted, I have neither the experience nor the expertise of a commericial pilot, but is ATC miscomunication by expericed pilots common at JFK? Also, it must be an absolute nightmare for pilots to respond to and execute these instructions if they are not completely comfortable speaking English. I can only imagine how much worse it gets when the weather is really bad in the New York metro area. Any thoughts or comments?

[Edited 2012-09-10 13:31:11]
 
fcogafa
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:45 pm

It has always struck me that American controllers say a lot more, much faster and are more agressive than is necessary. Then they are surprised when foreign pilots do not understand them.

Compare that to Heathrow controllers who manage to move more aircraft in a smaller space than JFK with just as complex a taxiway system and many more foreign pilots, whilst remaining calm, polite and saying less.

Chill out guys!
 
catiii
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:00 pm

Cue the quarterly "let's bash JFK controllers for being rude/having NYC accents/speaking too fast" thread...  
 
N62NA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:04 pm

There was a topic a few years ago that included a link to a recording of JFK ATC and a huge mess caused by one of the foreign pilots. He wasn't where he was supposed to be and the controller's handling of the situation was, er, quite interesting.  

On a related note - I was on an AA flight PHL-MIA a few years ago and a few seconds after takeoff this "strange" announcement came over the PA system, something like: "American 382 124.4 Good day." I of course knew what that was but there was some confused looks on the faces of some of the passengers!
 
khpn
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:17 pm

a few thoughts..

1) think about JFK during prime time rush hour with flights being cleared for take off and landing as frequently as possible, imagine the amount of metal moving around from 8-10am on a summer day, in ideal weather conditions, the amount of planes that are trying to get up or get down is mind blowing.. with such fast paced traffic it seems natural that the controllers issue commands as quickly as they can.

2) the fact that they do this all day every day as a career leads me to believe that they will get pretty good at saying something like "jetBlue XXX rwy XX cleared to land" or clearing a plane for the breezy point climb, or directing a plane to switch to a departure frequency.. they probably say such things hundreds of times to the point where it is second nature.

now couple those two points with the fact that they are some of, if not THE best controllers in the country and have gone through extensive training and simulation, they're pretty much prepared for any situation and already know exactly what to say before they even need to say it..

do they speak fast? yes
do they have an edge in their voices in moments of stress? OF COURSE! THEY'RE NEW YORKERS!!
are they professionals? certainly.

as for the pilot aspect of things, if you watch any footage of a landing or departure from JFK you'll see the crew working very closely together, flying into JFK really requires one pilot to aviate and the other to communicate. the smoothest approaches are those where the PIC only has to focus on flying the plane, while the 2nd in command's responsibility is to communicate with controllers while guiding the pilot/plane to follow ATC's instruction.


JFK = ATC at its best.
 
MGASJO
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 3):

There was a topic a few years ago that included a link to a recording of JFK ATC and a huge mess caused by one of the foreign pilots. He wasn't where he was supposed to be and the controller's handling of the situation was, er, quite interesting.

You mean this one?

http://youtu.be/Ru8IbRaHC2g
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N62NA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 5):

You mean this one?

http://youtu.be/Ru8IbRaHC2g

Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.
 
khpn
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):
Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.

this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-bWGxWBU
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:03 am

 
flyby519
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:12 am

The NYC controllers are some of the best in the business. If you can't handle it then you better turn your plane around and go home. Things in NYC get even faster paced once you're off airport property.
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 9):
The NYC controllers are some of the best in the business

..but they have the worst attitudes ever. I spend a lot of time listening the WATRS area (basically the Atlantic west of 60W) which is controlled by New York ARINC and it nearly makes my blood boil hearing how those male operators speak to the pilots. If you make the slightest mistake reading back an oceanic clearance or a re-route, out come all the snide remarks and heavy sighing and basically speak to you like you're some inept idiot. And god help you if your native language isn't English. How the Transoviet pilots manage to restrain themselves from giving them a mouthful back is astonishing.

I should also mention in fairness that the vast majority of the NYC ARINC female operators are absolutely lovely and very patient.
 
N243NW
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:36 am

I may take some flak for saying it here, but I've said it multiple times before after listening to the recordings of JFK controllers dealing with foreign pilots. I find that often the pilots are the first to make a mistake, but many of these audio recordings reveal terrible phraseology on the part of ATC. Being the best and most professional controllers out there means speaking in clear, concise, approved phraseology, not speaking like a machine gun in an attempt to sound cool or smart.

Proper communication means not throwing words like "interrogative" around on the frequency (the Air China 981 link above). Do the controllers honestly think that using this kind of verbiage will get them the result they want? It seems that the more frustrated the controller gets, the more nonstandard his transmissions become. Granted, that Air China pilot was pretty bad, but there's blame to go around on both sides here.

Of course, I'm sure that many foreign airlines try to send their most proficient English speaking pilots to airports like JFK, for this reason.
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:45 am

Quoting caTIII (Reply 2):
Cue the quarterly "let's bash JFK controllers for being rude/having NYC accents/speaking too fast" thread...

But they're so funny! Why bash them?

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):
Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.

It's hilarious nonetheless!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 8):
Quoting khpn (Reply 7):
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-b...GxWBU

Yes!

This one is the classic. I heard that guy was fired and got re-hired at Islip?


What about Boston John  
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airportugal310
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
What about Boston John  

Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico...so I heard, anyways

too bad!
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nycdave
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:29 am

Hey, if ya don't want things movin' fast, and some no-BS guys givin' ya the business, ehhh maybe fly inta some UDDA city, okay?
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico.

I never heard of "Boston Bob" - but if he used to work in Boston and now is in Puerto Rico, I would consider that a much better assignment!  
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:51 am

I've never thought JFK controllers speak any faster than anyone else, they just tend speak more frequently.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico...so I heard, anyways

That's a shame! John was a lot of fun to watch work. He'd actually wave to every airplane as it took off while saying his trademark "hasta lavista."
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Mir
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 11):
I find that often the pilots are the first to make a mistake, but many of these audio recordings reveal terrible phraseology on the part of ATC.

ATC phraseology in the US is poor, no doubt about it. When I was flying from Mexico to the US, there was a noticeable difference when one passed from Mexican airspace into Houston Center's airspace - the english became harder to understand.

But that's a cultural thing, and it will not change overnight, only when the current generation moves out of their jobs and a newer generation (hopefully instilled with a better appreciation of how to do things properly) moves in.

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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
But that's a cultural thing, and it will not change overnight, only when the current generation moves out of their jobs and a newer generation (hopefully instilled with a better appreciation of how to do things properly) moves in.

Just FYI, the newer generation of controllers appreciates their job FAR less than the "old timers." There are a lot of good new guys, don't get me wrong, but the culture shift is enormous. I wouldn't bank on anything you just said.

I suppose that's not surprising, though. Take a look anywhere in our society- would you say the younger generations are more or less considerate, thoughtful, careful, interested, interesting, or driven?

[Edited 2012-09-10 20:01:49]
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:01 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 15):
I never heard of "Boston Bob" - but if he used to work in Boston and now is in Puerto Rico, I would consider that a much better assignment!

I can't access youtube at the moment, but if you search for "Boston John" you should find a few clips. Very enthusiastic guy, was very polite, and just had a certain way of saying things that you couldn't forget
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 19):
Very enthusiastic guy, was very polite, and just had a certain way of saying things that you couldn't forget

And he was damn good at his job. The way he spoke also made his instructions easier to understand, and I've found myself incorporating them into my radio calls as well. For example, John would draw out "hold short" as "…hooold short…" so you knew to slow down and hold up just based on his tone.
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 16):
That's a shame! John was a lot of fun to watch work. He'd actually wave to every airplane as it took off while saying his trademark "hasta lavista."

Yup! Or the ubiquitous "Mocha Hagotdi" to the 9K's  
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 21):
Yup! Or the ubiquitous "Mocha Hagotdi" to the 9K's

And is it just me or did "seeeeyuhhh" catch on nationwide? I had a controller in South Bend say that to me the other week it reminded me of Boston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMhZkNwOzA8

[Edited 2012-09-10 20:07:59]
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CCA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:14 am

What's better, having to say it 3 times fast and slightly different each time or once slowly?

The point being I like NY ATC it's slick if English is your first language but it's a joke trying to be slick with foreign carries but it could be if they just slowed it down when it's obvious from the first transmission they guys not familiar with NY.

Things to consider.

Crews may go there once a year.
They could be at their circadian low.
It could be the end of a 12,13,14hr trip.

I've even heard a US carrier with a Texan accent tell NY to slow down.
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flyby519
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico...so I heard, anyways

That was the last I heard as well, but I have flown into SJU several times in the past year and havent heard him. Anyone confirm if he's down there working tower?
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 24):
Anyone confirm if he's down there working tower?

Maybe he took a supe job or something?
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airportugal310
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 20):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):

Yup and yup, I think. I have definitely been hearing the "cyaaaaaa" more

Actually, this clip here covers just about everything you and I mentioned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iTnbnARAHE

That, friends, is/was Boston John!
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting CCA (Reply 23):
I've even heard a US carrier with a Texan accent tell NY to slow down.

That's because Texans listen as fast as they talk.   
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:50 pm

While New York controllers have a reputation for speaking quickly and firing orders, I've had nothing but good experiences with them in the several years I flew into EWR and LGA. In fact, I always looked forward to working with those controllers as I knew they were the best and could handle stress and heavy traffic with relative ease.
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting CCA (Reply 23):
I've even heard a US carrier with a Texan accent tell NY to slow down.


There is complete truth to that......the pilot I am thinking of actually told the controller after a few missed radio transmissions, "do you hear how I talk, that's how I hear"!!!!!

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
there was a noticeable difference when one passed from Mexican airspace into Houston Center's airspace - the english became harder to understand.


Why, all Houston Center ever says on initial contact is "Houston Center Roger". Even the females are named Roger?   

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
ATC phraseology in the US is poor, no doubt about it.

Certainly is, and sad to say it appears nobody attempts to correct it either.
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting khpn (Reply 4):
JFK = ATC at its best.

Sorry but i take exception to that. From what I've heard on the recordings, NY phraseology is awful. You would get made fun of if you brought that crap to a west coast facility. And just because people live in NY doesn't make them the best. We have some damn good controllers out here on the west coast (and nationwide). People don't work in NY because they're the best, they work there because they live there. Besides, after taking several fam trips, most pilots say Chicago has some of the best controllers. I'm anxious to take a trip out there and listen to them.
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nycdave
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting sjc4me (Reply 30):
And just because people live in NY doesn't make them the best.

True. The best people just happen to live in NY  
 
tattvc
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Some things to share:

As a pilot myself (PPL and doing the IFR lessons as we speak) with the goal of eventually flying the big toys, some things from a pilot's (and not observer's) point of view:

1. In regards to JFK, yes, there is non-standard phraseology, and sorry to break it to you, but there is everywhere. But I would argue that in the Air China clip, the controller is trying to get a clear answer from the "ErrrChina" pilots. He probably had other things to do, just like I'm sure the Air China crew could very well have had a busy cockpit load at that point, but short of being a CA pilot (not in my future, I think, and not my choice, given aviation safety in China!) I can't definitively say, nor can any of us who were not in the cockpit or ground control as it happened. Hopefully, the time that JFK ground wasted trying to get an understandable and correct answer/readback didn't distract from a potentially dangerous situation.

2. Radio Etiquette is an incredible interesting aspect of flying, in terms of how you and others conduct themselves on the airwaves. In a lot of cases, when it's not busy, non-standard phraseology isn't a terrible thing to do. At my home airport (KARB), if I'm practicing touch-and-go's in the pattern and the controller has a lot of work to fit me in, before I go off-frequencey rolling onto the ramp, I try to get in a thank you, just to know express that I really do appreciate the work they did to accommodate me. It's not a huge thing and I don't make a speech on the radio, but if others are on frequency I feel like just a quick "Ground 3UM is on the ramp and thanks for your help", or "Ground 3UM thanks for the help and have a good night" if no one else is on frequency and I know they're all alone up there! It seems like they appreciate it, especially how unthankful some pilots can be.

3. While so far we're on the JFK crusade, let's not forget that there are other controllers in the world that are far worse. My father flies the 777 for a certain cargo company based in MEM, and it can be really unsettling, for example, Europe-China, crossing, say, Myanmar. THEIR rules say call 10 minutes out, you begin calling 10 minutes out. THEIR rules say you HAVE to have contact before crossing their boarder, "or else", the implication being that otherwise, you'll be meeting a missile. So what happens if they don't call back? Start doing circles at cruise in a 777 until they feel like lifting a finger? Nope, you just keep going, and eventually (sometimes!) they call back. Usually angry that you didn't call sooner, despite the fact from 10 minutes out you've constantly been making radio calls trying to get a hold of them. So, very sorry that controllers at JFK with a large workload can get a little rude on the radio!

4. And signing off, the most fun part IMHO! To try and disguise my low time, I usually say "good day" when leaving a frequency, it just sounds respectful and classy. During PPL training, there was a military Lear 35 or similar (they were really quick, sorry I don't have a better visual confirmation!) doing some missed approaches while I was in the pattern, and they got their frequency change to leave the area: TVC Tower: "Guard xxx, contact MSP center on xxx.xx and frequency change approved" and they responded in literally, a SECOND, with "x.xx Guard SEEYA", literally shouting into the mike! Sounds like they were having a great day, and a ton of fun, but to my untrained ears it did sound a little unprofessional...

Happy flying!
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N766UA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting TatTVC (Reply 32):
Radio Etiquette is an incredible interesting aspect of flying

And incredibly diverse. While training for a job once, I was docked points for having "folksy" phraseology, which comes from my pilot background. "Leaving twelve for eight" is something you'll hear all the time constantly, but you'd better be aware it's "One two thousand descending eight thousand." New hire controllers vs. guys who have been on position for a long time are the same way. The developmentals learn by-the-book phraseology, then once they get out on the floor they learn real-world phraseology. The whole point, though, is efficiency, not sounding cool. Controllers and pilots speak the way they do for a reason, JFK tower included.

In the end, I think the FARs and the 7110 cover everyone with the "as long as you're understood" rule, but it is important to remember what you're supposed to be saying!  
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Jpax
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:58 pm

As an EWR based pilot, the only people I see get flustered with this type of communication are foreigners, weekend warriors and new hires. There's the occasional private pilot doing his best to get flight following, but the controllers don't have time to hear about your C172/G and how you're headed to a pancake breakfast...and neither do I. You'll get 1200'd promptly and booted.

Air France is some of the worst I've seen. Absolutely awful. Same with Open Skies.
 
N766UA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting Jpax (Reply 34):
There's the occasional private pilot doing his best to get flight following, but the controllers don't have time to hear about your C172/G and how you're headed to a pancake breakfast...and neither do I.

Ugh, and they always have to explain that in vivid detail, too! Just file IFR and keep your life story to yourself and you're fine. As for Air france, I think they do it on purpose, they speak French at home and feel a need to rebel against the international rules, so even if they can understand you they'll pretend like they don't.
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Maverick623
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 3):
There was a topic a few years ago that included a link to a recording of JFK ATC and a huge mess caused by one of the foreign pilots. He wasn't where he was supposed to be and the controller's handling of the situation was, er, quite interesting.

Rumor has it that controller was a big part of the reason why JFK was a nightmare for ATC delays for a while. Couldn't keep up with it all and was a jerkass on top of it. He got reassigned, and things got better.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
Compare that to Heathrow controllers who manage to move more aircraft in a smaller space than JFK

Sorry, LHR ain't got nothin' on NYC airspace.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:14 pm

Hard to ignore the racism of saying "foreigners" don't understand ATC and are usually at fault. All foreigners don't speak English well? Is that what these people are trying to say? Like Americans enunciate perfectly and are never incomprehensible?
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 1):
It has always struck me that American controllers say a lot more, much faster and are more agressive than is necessary.

I'd say it's Americans in general, not just ATC @ JFK...  
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 37):
Hard to ignore the racism of saying "foreigners" don't understand ATC and are usually at fault.

How is it racist? School doesn't teach you to speak like a native, in English or in any other language. Natives are going to understand natives the best. It'll be next easiest for those who have lived in the relevant country for a while (or been around a lot of folks from the relevant country). It's just how language teaching and learning works.
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
I suppose that's not surprising, though. Take a look anywhere in our society- would you say the younger generations are more or less considerate, thoughtful, careful, interested, interesting, or driven?

This is a common generational refrain. Every generation thinks the next generation is somehow inferior or have lost some vague "notion" that defined the older generation. In reality this is just the manifestation of the older generation's values being superseded combined with nostalgia of the "good old days".

-IR
 
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 40):
This is a common generational refrain. Every generation thinks the next generation is somehow inferior or have lost some vague "notion" that defined the older generation. In reality this is just the manifestation of the older generation's values being superseded combined with nostalgia of the "good old days".

You're right up to about the year 2002. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc have obliterated that model. People literally care less now. It's all about viral videos, "friends," and "likes."

It's a shame too, because the internet has broadened everyone's horizons so much, and, ironically, most people just use it as a tool to focus attention solely on themselves.

Then again, maybe you're right, my "older generation," born in the mid 80's values include manners, having a personality, being social, giving 2 $#!ts, and looking up from my phone occasionally. Ah, the good old days.
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JHCRJ700
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 8):
Quoting khpn (Reply 7):
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-b...GxWBU

Yes!

This one is the classic. I heard that guy was fired and got re-hired at Islip?

Best part of this is when he mumbles to himself "you guys, you can't just do that". I'll listen to this clip then forget about it and come across it a few months later and I always enjoy.

As for the JFK controllers. I listen to JFK LiveATC at least a few times a week and while it's always busy I've never noticed them speaking crazy fast. Of course I listen to it all the time so if they are speaking fast I'm used to it. I do however remember flying into Denver years ago listening to channel 9 and it was so busy that the pilots were acknowledging radio calls by clicking their mics. I'll never forget that.

[Edited 2012-09-11 12:41:58]
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fcogafa
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 37):
Sorry, LHR ain't got nothin' on NYC airspace

Although I was referring to JFK airport rather than the airspace, I think you will find that the London TMA is one of the busiest areas of airspace in the world. There are more airports in the area than New York which collectively add up to a similar number of movements to 'NYC' area airports.

Anyway, the point was even if it is busy, ATC can be done in a calm, polite and professional way. Unfortunately you can't listen to UK ATC on LiveATC.net but if you search for heathrow atc on youtube there are several examples, such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkfT-VPfZoU
 
LONGisland89
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 10):
..but they have the worst attitudes ever. I spend a lot of time listening the WATRS area (basically the Atlantic west of 60W) which is controlled by New York ARINC

In all fairness, the ARINC radio operators are just that, radio operators. They control nothing.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico...so I heard, anyways

John is the facility manager at SJU, you will rarely hear him on the radio now.
 
N766UA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 44):
John is the facility manager at SJU, you will rarely hear him on the radio now.

Nice! Good for John. Nice pay bump, sunny locale, plus that's closer to home for him, no?
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rwy04lga
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
I suppose that's not surprising, though. Take a look anywhere in our society- would you say the younger generations are more or less considerate, thoughtful, careful, interested, interesting, or driven?

Plato/Socrates said something similar 2000+ years ago.

Quoting khpn (Reply 7):
this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-b...GxWBU

At 7:11 the controller says the pilots should 'come up here one day...you'd enjoy the show'. LOLOL he seemd so counfused. Poor guy.

[Edited 2012-09-11 15:20:50]
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N766UA
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 46):
Plato/Socrates said something similar 2000+ years ago.

Haha they must have been right! We've come a long way from the likes of Plato and Socrates. Now we've got… Washington DC and Hollywood. Blech!
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IAHFLYR
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 47):
Now we've got… Washington DC and Hollywood.

Pretty much one in the same!
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goboeing
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RE: JFK ATC- Controllers Or Auctioneers?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:41 pm

I find EWR controllers to be much more professional and less dramatic than the JFK controllers.

The JFK gang sounds like they make their own mess sometimes and then blabber on about it. I have never heard one single instance of that at EWR. Granted, they do not have quite as many foreign accents to deal with, but when a miscommunication occurs, they handle it differently (better).