maxthrusta330
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Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:17 pm

For the first time it's history, Boeing has contracted out the line assist training that it is obliged to provide to its airline customers - to an offshore company based in the Isle of Man   

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...st-use-contractors-train-787-crews

Six weeks after unanimously voting “No Confidence” in the management of Boeing’s Training & Flight Services division, pilots employed by the company to deliver airplanes and help prepare customer crews to fly them have decided to go public with their displeasure with Boeing’s decision to hire contract pilots to perform 787 training.

According to the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA):

“What really pushed [the AMFA pilots] past the breaking point was when it was announced that the 787 work was going to be contracted out, and that customers were going to be getting trainers who had never even flown in the 787. That was such a degradation of standards and, frankly, a fraud on the customer, that the pilots couldn’t stay silent.”

If the airline customers were led to believe that bona fide Boeing pilots would be performing line assist, then I for one agree that the management of Boeing’s Training & Flight Services division has been shamefully deceptive and fraudulent in its conduct. This is a case of corporate arrogance gone to far - well done to the Boeing pilots for giving their management a dressing down   
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:28 pm

By their own admission, AMPA does not have enough pilots available to perform the necessary delivery tasks, so I guess the expect Boeing to hold up customer deliveries?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
For the first time it's history, Boeing has contracted out the line assist training that it is obliged to provide to its airline customers

1) This is not "the first time in it's history." Boeing has been using some contract and/or external training pilots for years.
2) They're not obligated to provide line assist training, it's something negotiated with individual customers.

Tom.
 
nycdave
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
By their own admission, AMPA does not have enough pilots available to perform the necessary delivery tasks, so I guess the expect Boeing to hold up customer deliveries?

Uh, gee, or hire enough people to do it?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting nycdave (Reply 3):
Uh, gee, or hire enough people to do it?

They did just that through Cambridge Communications Limited.



It sounds like this is just more fallout from the 787 production and delivery delays. Perhaps Boeing needs the AMPA pilots to handle the pre-delivery Boeing and Customer test flights and can't spare half of them to assist the customers with their own training.

But those customers are not clueless, so they must be aware of the qualifications of the contract line-assist pilots. And as they have not raised a stink, I'm inclined to believe that those contract pilots have the qualifications that Boeing claims they do, even if they have not personally flown the 787 (as of yet - once the 787s arrive in those fleets, they should be able to get hours).
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:57 pm

(Potentially disconcerting) news for those who haven't been trainers: most of the "trainers" with whom you interact will not have done most of what they teach you. Training is usually accompanied by curriculum,one purpose of which is to provide a structured framework for knowledge of delivery. Most trainers are schooled in the curriculum and deviations from that curriculum may give them trouble, depending upon how knowledgeable and experienced they are.

There are even "train the trainer" courses in some fields, expressly written to equip a trainer with the knowledge and techniques they need to be an effective trainer, not an effective field person.

Professionally, I frequently provide "training" for problems which I've never solved. And I'm purely an "outsourced" resource, both from the client's perspective and the software OEM's perspective. In fact, I have no affiliation whatsoever with the software maker in whose product I profess expertise. Such training is effective because when a client asks for "training", they aren't really asking to have a problem solved, but rather to be equipped with both knowledge and modes of thought that make them better able to solve their own problems. Some of this knowledge is product features and best practices, and the modes of thought are usually specific to the technical field (or application) in question, such as multidimensional thought (as opposed to relational set-based thought).

Is it fraudulent to provide training on an aircraft you've never flown? Certainly not legally. Morally, I don't think it is either. I'm sure this comment will elicit the usual platitudes about how aviation really is different because people's lives are at stake or flying is inherently different from other jobs, blah blah blah. I offer my rebuttal right now: whatever.

What I would like to hear is what specific training objectives training would require a trainer to have actually flown the plane. Also, I would like to hear why these cannot be accounted for when the training is developed and when the contract is crafted.
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blueflyer
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:14 pm

I'm in favor of well-run unions, but this is a scare-mongering piece of garbage. One sentence explains everything: "They come as Boeing and SPEEA prepared to meet on September 13 over a new labor contract for the company’s 23,000 engineers and technicians."

The rest is a collection of key words to try and impress some of Boeing's customers and the public in the hope to gain an edge in contract negotiations. The reference to a contractor based on the Isle of Man is hilarious. Do they even know where it's at? Are we supposed to think this is the India of pilot jobs? The few pilots that live there are probably all high-time BA crews, a prime outsourcing market indeed...
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kanban
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
The rest is a collection of key words to try and impress some of Boeing's customers and the public in the hope to gain an edge in contract negotiations.


like the public and customers sit in the negotiations room .... I do see the union striking but from a less secure base than we had the last time... yes we had the element of shock that we dared, but do it too often and the company just schedules routine maintenance for 6 weeks. Also consider Boeing has now shown that the pilots can be easily replaced...so they will work on the engineering and tech staff portions of the contract.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:54 pm

I see this as just union posturing, on the part of SPEEA.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):

I'm in favor of well-run unions, but this is a scare-mongering piece of garbage. One sentence explains everything: "They come as Boeing and SPEEA prepared to meet on September 13 over a new labor contract for the company’s 23,000 engineers and technicians."

The AMPA pilots wouldn't be under that contract whether or not they were in SPEEA. SPEEA administers multiple contracts for multiple groups. This issue has nothing to do with current contract negotiation.

Tom.
 
Ychocky
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:19 pm

Forget having pilots who have flown it, they just need one of these?



[Edited 2012-09-13 11:20:59]
 
maxthrusta330
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting nycdave (Reply 3):
Uh, gee, or hire enough people to do it?

Exactly! It's not like Boeing didn't have enough lead time to recruit the extra manpower, given the numerous delays surrounding the 787's entry into service.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
1) This is not "the first time in it's history." Boeing has been using some contract and/or external training pilots for years.

You've misunderstood what I actually said:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
For the first time it's history, Boeing has contracted out the line assist training that it is obliged to provide to its airline customers

I clearly stated "Line Assist Training". If Boeing has contracted line assist training out before (which I doubt) then perhaps you could provide evidence to back up your claim.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
2) They're not obligated to provide line assist training, it's something negotiated with individual customers.

Yes, and if it is negotiated then by definition Boeing BECOMES OBLIGED TO PROVIDE IT...

The key issue here it that of customer commitments i.e. what Boeing has committed to provide, and how it differs from what they actually provided or attempted to provide. If Boeing promised to provide their customers with "Boeing" pilots for line assist training, and then tried to sneakily get the job done with contractors who have never even flow the 787 before, then that is nothing less than a despicable fraud and the entire Boeing Training & Flight Services management found to be responsible should all be fired.

The Boeing Company has suffered enough bad publicity on breaking customer commitments over the shockingly late delivery date of the 787 - what Boeing certainly doesn't need is a bunch of Training & Flight Services managers, who are cocooned away in their offices in Seattle, causing more reputational damage for the company by fraudulently breaking commitments to customers.

If anyone is still confused about the possible fraud that Boeing Training & Flight Services management has committed, here is the quote from the SPEEA:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):

“What really pushed [the AMFA pilots] past the breaking point was when it was announced that the 787 work was going to be contracted out, and that customers were going to be getting trainers who had never even flown in the 787. That was such a degradation of standards and, frankly, a fraud on the customer, that the pilots couldn’t stay silent.”
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
If Boeing promised to provide their customers with "Boeing" pilots for line assist training, and then tried to sneakily get the job done with contractors who have never even flow the 787 before, then that is nothing less than a despicable fraud and the entire Boeing Training & Flight Services management found to be responsible should all be fired.

The CCL pilots appear to be "Boeing" pilots per Boeing's statement, even if they are not full-time Boeing employees, but instead contractors / contingent staff. I started my career at Boeing as a contingent staffer and I was considered no less a "Boeing" employee by the folks I worked with on behalf of the Boeing company as I was when I became a Boeing full time employee.

AMPA's argument appears to be that the pilots should have flight hours at the controls of a 787, not that they must. And there have been no reports of airlines with line assist training contracts with Boeing objecting to those pilots not having flight hours at the control of a 787. As such, I am inclined to assume that these contracts do not have that stipulation - or at least some of them do not, and therefore CCL pilots meet the contractual requirements.

So unless the contract states the line assist training pilots would have flight hours at the controls of the 787, a charge of Boeing acting fraudulently should not hold up.
 
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ER757
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
One sentence explains everything: "They come as Boeing and SPEEA prepared to meet on September 13 over a new labor contract for the company’s 23,000 engineers and technicians."

That was my first thought as well. The local news reported the other day that the two sides were pretty far apart so maybe this is just more saber rattling by SPEEA?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
If Boeing has contracted line assist training out before (which I doubt) then perhaps you could provide evidence to back up your claim.

The entity now known as Boeing Flight Services - Training used to be Alteon. Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later. For the entire period that Alteon was its own business, Boeing contracted them to provide all training services, including line assist training.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 13):
The local news reported the other day that the two sides were pretty far apart so maybe this is just more saber rattling by SPEEA?

"The two sides" in this case does not include the AMPA pilots. The current contracts up for negotiation are the engineering and tech contracts.

Tom.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
The entity now known as Boeing Flight Services - Training used to be Alteon. Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later.

March 10, 1997. I was there. It was then called Flight Safety Boeing International, otherwise knows as "Fuzzbutt" (FSBTI). It was a joint venture between Boeing and Flight Safety international in which the employees had to quit Boeing and show up at their same desks, doing the same job, for the new company at a lower benefit rate.

It was renamed to Alteon later. You know, when things aren't going well you change the name.

I'll just stated the facts and keep my editorial comments to myself, lest I get myself in trouble. Not like I have strong feelings about that situation or anything.........
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting nycdave (Reply 3):
Uh, gee, or hire enough people to do it?

That's what they have done, it seems. This is a temporary situation, requiring "temps" contracted in.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
Exactly! It's not like Boeing didn't have enough lead time to recruit the extra manpower, given the numerous delays surrounding the 787's entry into service.

Doesn't matter. Try hiring a short-term union pilot in the USA. Try hiring a short-term union ANYTHING in the USA. Unless the profession in question is based on short period jobs, it's nearly impossible. It's also very expensive.

Boeing knows the number of full time, long term trainers it needs and will staff that number. Any short term demand needs to be dealt with externally via contractors lest Boeing face the wrath of "laying off" union employees once they are no longer needed...
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maxthrusta330
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):

The CCL pilots appear to be "Boeing" pilots per Boeing's statement, even if they are not full-time Boeing employees, but instead contractors / contingent staff. I started my career at Boeing as a contingent staffer and I was considered no less a "Boeing" employee by the folks I worked with on behalf of the Boeing company as I was when I became a Boeing full time employee.

Understand - a contractor pilot is not an Employee of the Boeing Company. Period. Also in this case, the contractor pilots have ZERO flight experience with the 787 - so they may be lots of things, but they are not "Boeing" pilots. If Boeing's airline customers were promised "Boeing" pilots for line assist training, and instead are now being given contractors with no flight experience on the 787 - then it is straight and simple fraud.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later. For the entire period that Alteon was its own business, Boeing contracted them to provide all training services, including line assist training.

You need to get your facts straight - Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company:

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...archive/2005/may/mainfeature2.html
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
If Boeing's airline customers were promised "Boeing" pilots for line assist training, and instead are now being given contractors with no flight experience on the 787 - then it is straight and simple fraud.

I don't hear any of the current or soon to be 787 operators making a fuss about the CCL pilots, so evidently they were not promised this.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
You need to get your facts straight - Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company:

If you're going to accuse me of getting facts wrong, I recommend that you read the facts you're citing. The article you linked to is entirely correct...Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company *since 2002*. From 1997-2002 (see Reply 15 for more details) it was not a Boeing company. Which was exactly what I said...Boeing spun off their training as its own business for several years, then later brought it back in:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
Understand - a contractor pilot is not an Employee of the Boeing Company. Period.

That really depends on the structure of the contract. Boeing, like most large companies, uses direct contract labour all the time. Those people are correctly considered Boeing employees for the purpose of their relationship with the outside world (the only difference between contract and direct labour is how their pay/benefits are handled). However, if Boeing contracts with another company to provide services, and it's employees of that company that are actually doing the work under the umbrella of the contracted company, they would not be considered Boeing employees.

Tom.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 7):
like the public and customers sit in the negotiations room

No, but they have phones to voice their concern with Boeing after reading this kind of report. Granted, Boeing is going to be far less impressed by the public (read investors) than by customers calling...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
This issue has nothing to do with current contract negotiation.

It wouldn't the first time that an union uses one bargaining unit to put pressure on management on behalf of another...

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 16):
Try hiring a short-term union ANYTHING in the USA.

Even at union shops, I don't believe that employment contracts have to be open ended. Can't they hire a few extra employees for a one-year period, for example? If that is what their contract stipulates, why would the union raise a beef over it? At least they collect dues, as opposed to contractors that do not pay union dues...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Those people are correctly considered Boeing employees for the purpose of their relationship with the outside world

"Correctly" by whom? Absent a court order, I'd say the final authority on this matter is the labor department, and for having been there, I believe their decision would come on the side of these trainers being contractors, not employees-almost-like-all-other-employees. How Boeing treats them is a factor, but not the only one by far.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
If Boeing's airline customers were promised "Boeing" pilots for line assist training, and instead are now being given contractors with no flight experience on the 787 - then it is straight and simple fraud.

It is highly unlikely Boeing promised in-house pilots, their lawyers wouldn't even have to graduate at the top of their class to know it's a bad idea. The time frame of these contracts is measured in years between the moments they are signed and the last aircraft covered is delivered. Years during which Boeing might decide that spinning off line training again may be a good idea, were it not for a contract they signed a few years back.

More than likely, the contract specifies the use of trainers that have been vetted, tested, trained and/or supervised by Boeing. At this point, what their exact relationship to Boeing is becomes moot.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
This issue has nothing to do with current contract negotiation.

It wouldn't the first time that an union uses one bargaining unit to put pressure on management on behalf of another...

True. Although, in this case, the AMPA group is a fraction of 1% of the size of the engineer or tech groups, so I don't think it's much pressure.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Those people are correctly considered Boeing employees for the purpose of their relationship with the outside world

"Correctly" by whom?

Customers. If you walk around a Boeing facility you will interact with people with blue badges and with black badges. Blue is direct, black is contract. If you call Boeing and ask for someone to help, you may get a blue badge or a black badge person and, from a customer standpoint, they're totally interchangeable. You will often have a mix of the two within the same group, colocated, doing the same work.

Tom.
 
maxthrusta330
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
That really depends on the structure of the contract. Boeing, like most large companies, uses direct contract labour all the time. Those people are correctly considered Boeing employees for the purpose of their relationship with the outside world (the only difference between contract and direct labour is how their pay/benefits are handled). However, if Boeing contracts with another company to provide services, and it's employees of that company that are actually doing the work under the umbrella of the contracted company, they would not be considered Boeing employees.

To repeat - a contractor by definition is not legally an employee of the Boeing Company. Period.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
If you're going to accuse me of getting facts wrong, I recommend that you read the facts you're citing. The article you linked to is entirely correct...Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company *since 2002*. From 1997-2002 (see Reply 15 for more details) it was not a Boeing company. Which was exactly what I said...Boeing spun off their training as its own business for several years, then later brought it back in:

You are changing your tune - lets have a look at exactly what you said originally:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later.

As Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company (since 2002) Boeing didn't buy them back as they already owned them! What subsequently happened (around late 2009) was simply a re-integration into The Boeing Company and basic re branding from Alteon to Boeing Training & Flight Services.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20):

It is highly unlikely Boeing promised in-house pilots

I'm not so sure it is that unlikely. Boeing is by no means averse to making promises it can't keep - just look at the multiple false promises relating to the delivery dates for the 787.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I don't hear any of the current or soon to be 787 operators making a fuss about the CCL pilots, so evidently they were not promised this.

Neither do I (yet) but my guess is that there must have been grumbles behind the scenes by the 787 customers that the AMFA pilots are aware of, and are now coming forward about it. If the operators are genuinely unhappy about it, I don't think it will take too long for the likes of Akbar Al Baker to make themselves heard. At the end of the day it all comes down to what committment(s) The Boeing Company made to the customer.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):
As Alteon was a wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company (since 2002) Boeing didn't buy them back as they already owned them!

They bought them back in 2002. Not sure what's so hard about this.

They owned them from 2002 on. They owned them up to 1997. They didn't own them in between. For that entire intervening period they were not Boeing and they were doing Boeing's contractually obligated training. That was the whole point.

Tom.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
Also in this case, the contractor pilots have ZERO flight experience with the 787 - so they may be lots of things, but they are not "Boeing" pilots.

Do all in-house, directly-hired-by-Boeing pilots have flight experience with the 787? If not, your argument is moot.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20):
More than likely, the contract specifies the use of trainers that have been vetted, tested, trained and/or supervised by Boeing. At this point, what their exact relationship to Boeing is becomes moot.

Makes sense to me... I've worked Temp contracts (nothing nearly so skilled as what Boeing is doing) where for all intents and purposes, to the end customer, I was an employee of the company they were dealing with. Was I "Legally" an employee of said company? No. But I was trained to do the job required in any and all capacities, so for the purposes of a contract some other company might have with the company I was assigned to, I was as good as an employee. As a matter of fact, that was the case with EVERY Temp position I've held.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):
To repeat - a contractor by definition is not legally an employee of the Boeing Company. Period.

But what's at question here is not Labor law, it's contract law. For contract law a temporary contractor trained to the same standards as a hired-in employee will be acceptable unless there is VERY specific language in the contract prohibiting such.
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jeb94
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:57 am

Um...if I recall Boeing designed the 787 cockpit to have commonality with the 777 cockpit similar to the 767 and 757. If these contract pilots have 777 flight hours then the 787 has a common cockpit and so these trainers are able to teach these courses on the 787.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:32 am

For someone who is accusing a (still) very professional, well-run company of:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
shamefully deceptive and fraudulent in its conduct.
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
tried to sneakily get the job done
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
by fraudulently breaking commitments to customers.
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
it is straight and simple fraud

One would think you'd have more than:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
If the airline customers were led to believe
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
If Boeing has contracted line assist training out before
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
Yes, and if it is negotiated
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
If Boeing promised to provide their customers
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
If Boeing's airline customers were promised
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):
but my guess is
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):
If the operators are genuinely unhappy

Your entire line of accusation is based on one statement made by a union currently in contract negotiations with it's employer.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):
I don't think it will take too long for the likes of Akbar Al Baker to make themselves heard.

The simple fact that he has not made himself heard on this point is even more telling.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 17):
You need to get your facts straight

Respectfully, as evidenced above, your accusation has no facts.


Hamlet69
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting jeb94 (Reply 25):
Um...if I recall Boeing designed the 787 cockpit to have commonality with the 777 cockpit similar to the 767 and 757. If these contract pilots have 777 flight hours then the 787 has a common cockpit and so these trainers are able to teach these courses on the 787.

The 777 and 787 are not the same flight deck. Nor are the 757/767 with the 777. The 777 and 787 flight decks were designed to be similar enough to have a certain finite training difference between them (I forget the exact number of days) but are not at all the same.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 24):
Do all in-house, directly-hired-by-Boeing pilots have flight experience with the 787? If not, your argument is moot.

Not initially. I'm sure they'll figure it out eventually.

Tom.
 
maxthrusta330
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
They bought them back in 2002. Not sure what's so hard about this.

That's funny   

Let's take (ANOTHER) look at what you said:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later.

By your own admission:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):

They owned them from 2002 on.

Therefore, as Alteon was already wholly owned by Boeing (from 2002 onwards) your claim that "they bought them back a few years later" doesn't make any sense. They already owned them so there was nothing to buy back! What's so hard about that   ?

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 26):
Respectfully, as evidenced above, your accusation has no facts.

Respectfully you are little to quick off the mark with your certainty - airline bosses such as Akbar Al Baker are notorious for their strategic timing when it comes to critiques of air framers. If you look at the stinging criticisms that Al Baker has made of Boeing, Airbus and Bombardier - all have been strategically timed to exercise maximum bargaining leverage over the named companies (which they seem to be finally catching on to - at last) therefore it wouldn't be at all surprising for him to attempt to create a furor over the whole "Boeing contractor issue" at a conveniently calculated moment.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 26):
Your entire line of accusation is based on one statement made by a union currently in contract negotiations with it's employer.

Of course it is - were you expecting the AMFA pilots to come forward and release propriety contracts between The Boeing Company and the airline customers in order to back up their belief that Boeing (their employer) is defrauding its customers? It's not unknown for employees to do that sort of thing (whistle-blowing) and who knows - there may very well be further "details" that are released by the AMFA pilots, but the simple fact is that we have a highly respected (by Boeing's customers at least) and professional group of pilots openly and publicly stating that "there is a fraud on the customer".

To refresh your memory:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
“What really pushed [the AMFA pilots] past the breaking point was when it was announced that the 787 work was going to be contracted out, and that customers were going to be getting trainers who had never even flown in the 787. That was such a degradation of standards and, frankly, a fraud on the customer, that the pilots couldn’t stay silent.”
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 29):
Therefore, as Alteon was already wholly owned by Boeing (from 2002 onwards) your claim that "they bought them back a few years later" doesn't make any sense. They already owned them so there was nothing to buy back! What's so hard about that

He seems to have misspoken about the spinoff date, but it was 1997. If you replace "the 2000s" with "1997" in the original statement, it's entirely correct.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 29):
Let's take (ANOTHER) look at what you said:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Boeing spun Alteon off as a wholly separate business in the 2000's before buying them back a few years later.

By your own admission:

I got the sell date wrong (it was 1997). The buy-back date was, indeed, a few years into the 2000's:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 23):
They owned them from 2002 on. They owned them up to 1997. They didn't own them in between.

Let's not for get the original claim:

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 11):
If Boeing has contracted line assist training out before (which I doubt) then perhaps you could provide evidence to back up your claim.

They did. We can have a non-productive quibble for as long as you like about the precise dates over which their line assist training was contracted out but the important point is, *they contracted out line assist training* and the evidence, since you didn't take my word for it, was in the link *you* provided.

Tom.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
I got the sell date wrong (it was 1997). The buy-back date was, indeed, a few years into

As I stated earlier, Monday, March 10, 1997. I had the misfortune of being there at the announcement.
 
maxthrusta330
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
They did. We can have a non-productive quibble for as long as you like about the precise dates over which their line assist training was contracted out but the important point is, *they contracted out line assist training* and the evidence, since you didn't take my word for it, was in the link *you* provided.

   I've checked the link (http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/may/mainfeature2.html)
and couldn't find anything to back up your claim. Perhaps you could share your evidence with us?
 
dynamicsguy
Posts: 442
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 33):
and couldn't find anything to back up your claim

From that link:

Quote:
First established in 1997 as a joint venture between Boeing and FlightSafety International

and

Quote:
Alteon, formerly known as FlightSafety Boeing Training International, has been a wholly owned Boeing subsidiary since October 2002

Since it states that Alteon has been wholly owned by Boeing since 2002, and it was established in 1997, by extension it was not wholly owned by Boeing for 5 or so years.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 34):
Since it states that Alteon has been wholly owned by Boeing since 2002, and it was established in 1997, by extension it was not wholly owned by Boeing for 5 or so years.

Bingo. Also, in case anybody want to jump on the "aha, a joint venture!" bandwagon, Alteon was a completely separate operating business; just ask BoeingGuy. Getting training services from Alteon in during the spin-off period was no more getting training from Boeing than buying a Ford is getting a car from me (I own Ford stock). Boeing literally contracted Alteon to do training, including Boeing internal training.

Tom.
 
maxthrusta330
Topic Author
Posts: 31
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 34):
Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 33):
and couldn't find anything to back up your claim

From that link:

Quote:
First established in 1997 as a joint venture between Boeing and FlightSafety International

and

Quote:
Alteon, formerly known as FlightSafety Boeing Training International, has been a wholly owned Boeing subsidiary since October 2002

Since it states that Alteon has been wholly owned by Boeing since 2002, and it was established in 1997, by extension it was not wholly owned by Boeing for 5 or so years.

Dude if you want to interfere - at least make an effort to understand the context....geez.

To illuminate you as to what you are actually commenting on, "tdscanuck" is claiming that Boeing has previously contracted out its line assist training:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
*they contracted out line assist training* and the evidence, since you didn't take my word for it, was in the link *you* provided.

My point is that "tdscanuck" is full of hot air as the "link" that I provided contains no such information. Therefore why is "tdscanuck" attempting to make out that it does....kinda weird is it not - but then some people do have vivid imaginations?

So to clarify, there has not yet been any evidence provided that shows that Boeing has previously contracted out its line assist training. "tdscanuck" claims that they have, but is for some strange reason is unable to provide any evidence...

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 33):
I've checked the link (http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/may/mainfeature2.html)
and couldn't find anything to back up your claim. Perhaps you could share your evidence with us?

Either provide the evidence of concede that you are in the wrong.
 
mffoda
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:12 pm

Here is the press release form Boeing regarding the JV in 1997... Don't know if it helps here?

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970310a.html
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 36):
So to clarify, there has not yet been any evidence provided that shows that Boeing has previously contracted out its line assist training.

If you want to accuse BoeingGuy and I of outright lying, just go ahead and say so. It would be much simpler.

Evidence has been provided, along with more than enough information to look up as much additional evidence as you'd like. It's all there.

Tom.
 
dynamicsguy
Posts: 442
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:49 am

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 36):
Dude if you want to interfere - at least make an effort to understand the context....geez.

Mate, I understand the context. I've been reading the whole thread as it developed.

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 36):
My point is that "tdscanuck" is full of hot air as the "link" that I provided contains no such information.

How about you make up your mind what you're trying to prove with that link? You first provided it to prove that Alteon was always Boeing owned. So what is your contention? That Alteon didn't provide contracted training from 1997 to 2002?

It's pretty impressive that you're continuing to argue with a guy who says he worked in the company that he doesn't know what that company did. Both tdscanuck and Boeingguy have a pretty solid track record here. About the only thing you could complain about is that Tom could have checked his dates before posting.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 39):
How about you make up your mind what you're trying to prove with that link? You first provided it to prove that Alteon was always Boeing owned. So what is your contention? That Alteon didn't provide contracted training from 1997 to 2002?

It's pretty impressive that you're continuing to argue with a guy who says he worked in the company that he doesn't know what that company did. Both tdscanuck and Boeingguy have a pretty solid track record here. About the only thing you could complain about is that Tom could have checked his dates before posting.

Alteon was not Boeing owned. It was 49% owned by Boeing and 51% owned by Flight Safety. They structured it that way so they could make the employees quit Boeing and show up the next day with a new company name on their employee badge and do exactly the same work at a lower benefit rate (e.g. no pension, etc).

As Dynamicsguy properly noted, I would know considering that I was working there at the time.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 39):
About the only thing you could complain about is that Tom could have checked his dates before posting.

And Tom would certainly agree with that.

Tom.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:40 pm

Whenever the price is higher than a viable alternative, people tend to buy the alternative. This is the fact that unions seem terminally incapable of grasping. They can argue that the alternative is not the same quality - but thats the customer's decision to make, not theirs.

In this particular case, if the training offered is not per the support contract Boeing will answer to the customer. If the customer is not satisfied, Boeing will answer to the customer. But that is not the problem at all. The problem is that this is certainly completely within the terms of the contract, and very likely to satisfy the customer - thus diminishing the power of the union to hold Boeing hostage. That, of course, is unacceptable.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 3916
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 42):
In this particular case, if the training offered is not per the support contract Boeing will answer to the customer. If the customer is not satisfied, Boeing will answer to the customer. But that is not the problem at all. The problem is that this is certainly completely within the terms of the contract, and very likely to satisfy the customer - thus diminishing the power of the union to hold Boeing hostage. That, of course, is unacceptable.

The quality of training went WAAAAAY down after March 10, 1997. Customer complaints were even reported in one particular media article back then.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2152
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Reply 22):

To repeat - a contractor by definition is not legally an employee of the Boeing Company. Period.

I've worked with several contractors in my career at Boeing. From what I understand, the contractor works for Boeing as an independent contract (typically 6 months renewable). So though they may not be "legally an employees" by definition, they are employee by "FAA" definition as is they have the same Engineering function/responsibilities (or what ever function they were contracted for) as direct hire. Some contractors can stay with the companies for years and have lead responsibilities.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 24):

But what's at question here is not Labor law, it's contract law.

Labor and contract laws are the responsibility of the Department of Labors. Flight training is the responsibility of the FAA.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 32):

As I stated earlier, Monday, March 10, 1997. I had the misfortune of being there at the announcement.

My condolence. Something you can tell your grand kids. I had a minor stupidity of starting work after a paid holiday. (inside Boeing Joke)

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
The quality of training went WAAAAAY down after March 10, 1997. Customer complaints were even reported in one particular media article back then.

Quality went down even with the same people working? Was it the NEW management style? or just motivation
 

Too bad some folks gets stuck with negotiating the letters of the posts and don't see the spirit of the posts and gloss over the comments of folks who actually was there  

Hope all the Seattle Folks on A-net is enjoying this great Seattle weather and not let this small brew-hah-hah get ya down.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting maxthrusta330 (Thread starter):
provide to its airline customers - to an offshore company based in the Isle of Man

Some questions:

Will the training be done in Europe then? If this is the case then I can see the business case. European airlines may decide to send their pilots there to train instead of all the way to the US.

Don't some airline have their own training curriculum as opposed to having Boeing train their pilots?

UN-informed reader wants to know.  

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 3916
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 44):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
The quality of training went WAAAAAY down after March 10, 1997. Customer complaints were even reported in one particular media article back then.

Quality went down even with the same people working? Was it the NEW management style? or just motivation

Great question. It wasn't the same people. Many experienced instructors left for other jobs within Boeing so they could stay Boeing employees. They ended up with many new inexperienced people who didn't have the same motivation. But it didn't matter. After all, the employees were just replaceable cogs. The employees were expensive liabiliities, not assets.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 46):
They ended up with many new inexperienced people who didn't have the same motivation.

So it would be interesting if a follow-up evaluation can show whether:

1) the service improved once some experienced was obtained by the new trainers.
2) it improved when the company was absorbed back into the Boeing fold (assumed with the same trainers).

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 44):
Quality went down even with the same people working?

It is amazing how much organization, attitude and motivation can affect performance.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 46):
The employees were expensive liabiliities, not assets.

This is definitely the other end of the issue. When accountants are running the show, you get the lowest cost solution. Which frequently is not a solution anyone really wants to buy.
 
CM
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RE: Boeing Pilots:no Confidence In Training Management

Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
Customer complaints were even reported in one particular media article back then.

Like unions, airlines have their own motivations for making their complaints public. As hard as it is for some to accept, the motivating factor is not always what is articulated to the media.

In the case of the airlines complaining about Alteon training, there was an underlying motivation related to Boeing no longer being able to offer pro-forma training as a part of an aircraft deal. Airlines had previously been able to get Boeing to include millions of dollars of flight training as a part of an airplane sale at little or no added cost to the airline. By spinning flight training off into a separate (non-Boeing controlled) company, Boeing could legitimately say "sorry, we do not have the ability to package training as a part of this airplane deal". Airlines hated this arrangement and loss of pieces for use in negotiating, and they complained very vocally... mostly that somehow the training through Alteon was sub-standard. In reality, there is very little evidence to support claims the training quality slipped. Of course, training personnel within Boeing had their own motivations for complaining that training through Alteon had quality issues. In the end, I believe Boeing found having training available as a negotiating chip when closing a deal to be more of an asset than a liability. Hence they bought Alteon back.

As for this contract trainer issue; I know and work with the majority of Boeing's test and technical pilots (as does Tom) and can tell you this is a message coming out of the union propaganda office, but is not an opinion being vocalized or worried about by the pilots. Claims of "fraud" would require knowledge of the contracts, which the union does not have, and claims of "degradation of standards" are not the unions to make (this is a matter for regulatory oversight). If either of these claims were true, the airlines would be taking Boeing to court for breach of contract and the regulators would be intervening to address the issue of training standards. Since neither of these has occurred, and not a single Boeing pilot has been quoted as having concerns about these contract trainers, I think it is very safe to say the real motivation behind this union communication has to do with fighting for what they feel should be union jobs in order to have a piece they can later "concede" on in negotiations. To believe the union is altruistic concerning the airlines or transparent concerning the motivation behind their communications is to be quite naive.

Speaking of motivations, it would be interesting to know what maxthrusta330's motivations are. He/she seems far more interested in painting Boeing as "deceptive", "sneaky", "fraudulent", "breaking commitments", etc, than he/she is in truly understanding the things which are at work here.

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