olddominion727
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How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:40 pm

What makes the PacNW routes to Asia from SEA more profitable than when they were from PDX? I know SEA has more folks but AS still had a hub in PDX so the feed should be there... It would truly be nice if they would follow it up with a long-awaited return to TPE, NGO, SEL from PacNW? The aircraft is better I know 763 (Winglets)/A332 vs MD11. Is their international Asia product that much better, or is it just the fact that there are so many AS Mileage Plan member in the PacNW and they can get DL miles? I know this has been tossed around so much, but this seems like the perfect marriage. Not sure why AS is not absorbed into DL? AS caters to many ST members too. Maybe their costs are lower. I think this build-up leaves AA out in the cold with their hiney's exposed. AA had the first code-share and they NEVER did anything to make more money with AS and solidify it's PacNW standings the way DL has done.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:46 pm

I think you kinda answered your own question. I'm no expert but I think it's because:

1. larger, better city for Asia ops
2. AS feed
3. NW! Don't forget that DL is essentially NW in SEA, with some addition. Before, it was DL@PDX and NW@SEA. Now it's NW+@SEA

Plus, I think the SEA op makes more sense... PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK or something crazy, SEA is actually like a hub now (or at least more direct options)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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deltacto
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK

DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Don't forget that DL is essentially NW in SEA, with some addition.

DL has a lot of history in SEA thanks to NW. For many years starting in the 1940s NW's SEA-Asia service was the fastest and most direct service between the U.S. and Asia. NW's route was close to the great circle route. The route via HNL used by Pan Am and the few Asian carriers that operated transpacific services then (JAL and Philippine Airlines) was much longer.
 
roseflyer
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:09 pm

The SEA market has grown. It's a much bigger market than PDX. In the 90s yields were high enough with low fuel prices that think low O/D routes like PDX-Asia worked. Today with fuel prices higher, margins are thinner requiring better yield management.

In the last year yields have gone up and thinner routes are begging to work again.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I know SEA has more folks but AS still had a hub in PDX so the feed should be there

Anything requiring feed is always lower yielding than O/D. Airlines chase nonstop O/D routes because there's less competition on a nonstop flight than there is if feed is required. In the 90s, you had NW via SEA/NRT, UA via SEA/NRT and DL via PDX.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Is their international Asia product that much better, or is it just the fact that there are so many AS Mileage Plan member in the PacNW and they can get DL miles? I know this has been tossed around so much, but this seems like the perfect marriage.

Codeshares are played up via marketing to have all alliance members being equal. That's marketing to bring people into the airlines.

In reality, flying people on your own metal is always more profitable. There's a reason why AS has started ATL, DFW, ORD, etc even though they are hubs of their code share partners.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
olddominion727
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:11 pm

Hence NW original name of Northwest Orient. But for a few years, NW had cut their Asia service from SEA to one flight a day to TYO (NRT). Now it seems this is the 2nd time DL/NW built up Asia from SEA in the last 20 years. I can remember NW had service to Hong Kong, China and Japan from SEA for or 5 cities. I think they also did SEA-OSA-CGK as a direct via OSA
 
rwsea
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:22 pm

Lots of reasons, and you hit most of them:

- A332/B767 are smaller, thus fewer seats to fill (at higher yields)
- A332/B767 are cheaper to operate (2 engine vs. 3 engine) than the MD-11
- Much more feed; DL now draws from their own network (including legacy NW routes) and the AS codeshares
- SEA has many more Fortune-500 corporations than PDX, with Microsoft especially driving a lot of traffic
- The Seattle metro area is about 50% bigger than the Portland metro area
- SEA has grown quite a bit since the 1990s (although PDX has as well)
- DL itself has become a much larger player in the Asia market after acquiring NW

So, in summary, its a bigger city, there's much better feed, and it is operated with lower-cost equipment.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:22 pm

As far as I know, PDX-NRT is doing well and is safe. I know you are referring to the previous DL PDX-Asia flights, but the thread title is a bit misleading. DL still has PDX-Asia service.
 
HPRamper
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:24 pm

DL didn't just close the PDX hub due to lack of feed or less O&D than SEA. There were a myriad of reasons it ended up on the chopping block.
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 5):
Hence NW original name of Northwest Orient.

It wasn't their original name. NW had been in business for 20 years when they began using Northwest Orient as a marketing name after they started transpacific service in the late 1940s. It was never their legal name.
 
olddominion727
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:36 pm

@Viscount... wow I never knew that. That's interesting. In this biz 22 years. never knew that. thanks
 
flyPBA
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
It wasn't their original name. NW had been in business for 20 years when they began using Northwest Orient as a marketing name after they started transpacific service in the late 1940s. It was never their legal name.

back in 1930 it was actually Northwest Airways, Inc.

changed to Northwest Airlines in 1934 or so ... didn't start using Northwest Orient until late 1946 ... until they went to Northwest in 1986

good place to look ... http://www.airtimes.com/cgat/usb/northwest/gal/nwgal30.htm

[Edited 2012-09-15 18:04:47]
 
greggariouspdx
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:05 am

I flew PDX-BKK on a DL L-1011 that went via Tapei and Seoul Kimpo in the early days of the PDX Asian Hub. I remember the load being very light both ways and I received a Comp upgrade to F from J. The seats were great, despite the lack of lie-flat capability, and the service was flawless. I heard the L1011's were weight restricted across the Pacific before the MD-11 came along with greater range. The MD-11's were a maintenance nightmare .
 
COSPN
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:07 am

3 reasons

Alaska feed
Alaska feed
Alaska feed
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3264
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 13):
3 reasons

Alaska feed
Alaska feed
Alaska feed

exactly. DL can offer quite a nice one stop selection to feed the flights and no risk of flying its own domestic routes. PDX required a stop in SLC, ATL, or CVG at that time so it wasnt really the best settup and the MD11s were huge and thirsty. Delta tried feeding some flights to PDX but they really didnt want to be in the domestic market there

Its what delta is doing right now....the 767s are a nice size but i dont think they plan on going big.......
 
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RWA380
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:13 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
AA had the first code-share and they NEVER did anything to make more money with AS and solidify it's PacNW standings the way DL has done.

AA has had little to do with the Northwest from the days they came to the area in the early 80's. They flew to EUG for less than a year, and other than the SEA-NRT flight that AA operated for some years, and the subsequent connections to MIA, JFK, ORD, DFW, there has been little action in SEA and even less at PDX with AA. SEA-BNA operated once.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK or something crazy

See below, deltacto nailed it on the head exactly.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 2):
DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end

You have a very accurate memory, this is a perfect recounting of DL's PDX hub.

Quoting greggariouspdx (Reply 12):
I heard the L1011's were weight restricted across the Pacific before the MD-11 came along with greater range. The MD-11's were a maintenance nightmare

The L15 was flying for a much shorter time than the M11's at least, the view of 5 L-1011's then 5 M11's around the end of D still stick in my mind each time I taxi by on my way in or out of time.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 14):
exactly. DL can offer quite a nice one stop selection to feed the flights and no risk of flying its own domestic routes. PDX required a stop in SLC, ATL, or CVG at that time so it wasnt really the best settup and the MD11s were huge and thirsty. Delta tried feeding some flights to PDX but they really didnt want to be in the domestic market there

At the time DL had it's Asia hub at PDX there were domestic non-stop connections to SEA, BOI, SFO, LAX, LAS, SLC, DFW, ATL, JFK, BOS & CVG. Some of those domestic options were M11's, 767's, 757's mid-day on D concourse was always a busy time, I remember flying M11 to ATL in J, CVG in J, SLC in J to name a few.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
ANA787
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Quoting deltacto (Reply 2):
DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end

You have a very accurate memory, this is a perfect recounting of DL's PDX hub.

There was also plans to start PDX-KIX...it was announced but never started unfortunately. PDX-PEK-PVG was also planned.
 
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RWA380
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 16):
There was also plans to start PDX-KIX...it was announced but never started unfortunately. PDX-PEK-PVG was also planned

I was pretty good with our DL rep here in Portland, as I managed an office for Azumano travel, the owner of the largest agency in Portland Sho Dozono, was a big player in the movement that got DL to get their hub operating here. The Port of Portland had made fairly big concessions to DL to land the deal.

I did know that KIX was on their radar, and authorities to China were not so easy to come by at that time, despite DL wanting PVG or PEK authority, DL also felt that it was going to be out of reach for a while still, therefore efforts in developing the market were half assed in favor of more Japan cities.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 11):
didn't start using Northwest Orient until late 1946 ... until they went to Northwest in 1986

It was actually Northwest Oriental on their first timetable (November 1946) using the new marketing name. That didn't last long as all subsequent timetables used Northwest Orient.



[Edited 2012-09-17 15:30:51]
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:29 pm

I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

How is PDX-NRT doing these days anyway? AFAIK, both PDX-NRT and PDX-AMS are doing well enough for DL to be fairly safe.
 
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RWA380
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

I absolutely remember this advertising, it was on the radio and TV here in Portland, in Aug 1979 we took NW Orient to Hawaii via SEA. DC-10-PDX-SEA-PDX (During the grounding of DC-10's, as NW's were PW engines), 747-SEA-HNL-SEA.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
VC10DC10
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

Ah yes, the famous Northwest Orient gong... it was created by Minneapolis advertising agency Campbell Mithun (Northwest president Donald Nyrop wanted an agency in the Twin Cities, not New York) and was hugely successful. I believe the advertising concept won awards back in the day.
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

Ah yes, the famous Northwest Orient gong... it was created by Minneapolis advertising agency Campbell Mithun (Northwest president Donald Nyrop wanted an agency in the Twin Cities, not New York) and was hugely successful. I believe the advertising concept won awards back in the day.

A couple of NW ads featuring the "gong".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPuR92W-III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuB5QIgOmxE

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