kl911
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Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:24 am

Quote:

Lufthansa management will present a strategy update to the supervisory board on Wednesday including plans for a new European low-cost airline, WirtschaftsWoche said in an advance extract of its Monday edition

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...nsa-strategy-idUSL5E8KF0WI20120915



I think this is good news. Mainline LH is obviously to expensive to use on intra european routes which are almost always less then 2 hours flying.

Question is, where will this airline be based? Munich would be my preference since it has no Ryanair or Easyjet base nearby.
 
finnishway
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:26 am

What is wrong with Germanwings?
 
kl911
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 1):
What is wrong with Germanwings?

Germanwings is not cheap at all. And Germanwings is a German LCC, I think LH is talking about a new European LCC.
 
finnishway
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Germanwings is not cheap at all. And Germanwings is a German LCC, I think LH is talking about a new European LCC.

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just change the stategy of Germanwings than establish a new airline?

I don't think running both would be good for their business, but I may be wrong.
 
kl911
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:42 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 3):
Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just change the stategy of Germanwings than establish a new airline?

Yes, it would be interesting to know what their strategy is regarding Germanwings. Maybe they will turn that into a LH regional?
 
airevents
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:42 am

The new airline will indeed incorporate Germanwings and LH´s non-hub stations. Question is whether fares necessarily will get cheaper, but the airline apparently hopes to bring production costs down quite a bit.
www.airevents.com
 
kl911
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting airevents (Reply 5):
Question is whether fares necessarily will get cheaper

Yes, LCC doesn't have to mean Low fare airline like Wizzair and Ryanair.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):
Yes, LCC doesn't have to mean Low fare airline like Wizzair and Ryanair.

Agreed just another Cost (reduced) centre employing staff with inferior terms, sub contracting ground services to the cheapest tenderer, BOB catering charging for mainline IT services by the hour, and removal of low margin services from Mainline accounts (shoring up those bottom line results) etc.......
This is LCC in its literal meaning not those headline flexible fares operators !
 
Qazar
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:10 pm

What about EuroWings... Aren't they owned, or partly owned by LH?
 
na
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):
Yes, LCC doesn't have to mean Low fare airline like Wizzair and Ryanair.

Well, already now you can fly with LH at the price of Ryanair. At least from Frankfurt it often doesnt make sense to go to "Frankfurt"-Hahn for the additional cost and time lost to get there. I am price conscious, but unless shortterm at busy hours, LH offers a package that alltogether beat even the LCC.
 
EY460
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:49 pm

Maybe they are looking for something very similar to Iberia Express. A company cheaper to run but with a service very similar to the mainline company.
 
kl911
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting na (Reply 9):
Well, already now you can fly with LH at the price of Ryanair. At least from Frankfurt it often doesnt make sense to go to "Frankfurt"-Hahn for the additional cost and time lost to get there. I am price conscious, but unless shortterm at busy hours, LH offers a package that alltogether beat even the LCC.

LH can indeed have 99 euro return tickets, as does KLM, but the 4 euro my brother just paid for EIN-BUD return was really the amount taken of his prepaid creditcard. And those are the flights im looking for.

Lets say 20 euro max per segment and I call it lowfare.
 
wilco737
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:03 pm

How this LCC will be introduced is not clear yet. But I guess some cheap employees will be hired to save that kind of money. About the rest, I haven't read any details either.
Let's wait and see what Wednesday will bring....


wilco737
  
 
ScottishDavie
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Germanwings is not cheap at all.

Really? The last time I flew EDI-CGN then a few days later CGN-MUC they were cheap enough for me. Personally I rate 4U as one of the best LCCs in Europe and I hope whatever LH has up its sleeve won't spoil a very good product.
 
asctty
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:27 pm

LH never managed to run WW at a profit, so it will be interesting to see what their plans are now.
Is the EU not becoming saturated with low cost carriers? Where can't you go with FR, EZY, Norwegian etc?
 
C010T3
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:30 pm

I hope it's done in a seamless manner, not like Iberia Express.
 
JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 11):
LH can indeed have 99 euro return tickets, as does KLM, but the 4 euro my brother just paid for EIN-BUD return was really the amount taken of his prepaid creditcard. And those are the flights im looking for.

Lets say 20 euro max per segment and I call it lowfare.

Well I am sure that Ryanair doesn't pay the same airport charges in Budapest (or Eindhoven) as Lufthansa pays in Frankfurt, so comparing the two doesn't make sense.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:41 pm

Schadenfreude: watching EU (and Asian) carriers make the same mistakes US carriers made 10-15 years ago. 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:16 pm

Well good luck LH... legacies running their own LCC seems like a good idea but has a horrible track record, idk why, but really:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
watching EU (and Asian) carriers make the same mistakes US carriers made 10-15 years ago. 

  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
chootie
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
I think this is good news. Mainline LH is obviously to expensive to use on intra european routes which are almost always less then 2 hours flying.

...I don´t know what is so GOOd about it, but in my eyes, it just goes to show how ruthless the management can get. Why does eveyone think that a LCC model is the way out.

If folks only want cheap fares, that is sad enough, but to have each and every airline file suit is pathetic         
chootie
 
BMI727
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Well good luck LH... legacies running their own LCC seems like a good idea but has a horrible track record, idk why,

They either fail and get shut down or they succeed, suck traffic from their parent, and then get shut down.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LaoLao
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:43 pm

Maybe we should collect a track record of legacies founding/running a LCC:

Failure/ Re-Integration:
-Germanwings
-bmi baby
-Go
-Lufthansa direkt


Success:
-Jetstar


More ideas?
 
KaiTak747
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:46 pm

I don't understand how this will work. There is a huge amount of competition in Europe (e.g. Ryanair, Easyjet, Air Berlin...etc) and I don't see how LH will be able to cut enough costs to offer a competitive product and make this a success.

Remember, a LCC still needs planes, pilots, FAs, and fuel...etc, which all cost a huge amount of money and there is only so much that you can cut. Keep Germans Wings, they seem to be quite low cost and from what I hear very popular with flyers.
 
jonnyclark
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:54 pm

If i remember correctly, this harks back to the story leaked in Bild back in April...

http://thedesignair.wordpress.com/20...fthansas-new-project-direct-4-you/

...where they state they are going to amalgamate Germanwings and Eurowings, and recreate a brand new low cost carrier. If they can make a European carrier a success, it would be the first legacy carrier to offer a real intra European network of bases. Could be an exciting environment to watch... after all, they may end up improving the services of Ryanair and easyJet through direct competition on routes...

That said, how many legacy carriers really have made a success of a low-cost model.
Jonny, commercial pilot & founder of Thedesignair
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting Qazar (Reply 8):
What about EuroWings... Aren't they owned, or partly owned by LH?

LH owns 49% of Eurowings.
 
lhrnue
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:54 pm

Germanwings is the wrong name for an Europen LCC.
 
kl911
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting chootie (Reply 19):
If folks only want cheap fares, that is sad enough

What is sad about that? The cheaper the better, the more often we can fly to visit family, go on holiday, and save the company money on business trips.

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 25):
Germanwings is the wrong name for an Europen LCC.

They might use the Eurowings name.
 
chootie
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 26):
What is sad about that? The cheaper the better, the more often we can fly to visit family, go on holiday, and save the company money on business trips.

....well then go to Mr Oleary or Easyjet and get on with it. Lots of folks want to still have a quality airline and are not pushed by the cheap fares. Just sad when LH,KL,IB etc feel they have to join the "we are the cheapest" bandwagon, and feel the rest of the planet feel the same way. To each his own.
chootie
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting chootie (Reply 27):
Lots of folks want to still have a quality airline and are not pushed by the cheap fares.

Unfortunately for high-cost carriers like LH, not enough passengers care about anything other than price, especially on shorthaul routes in Europe, and those who do care are getting fewer and fewer every year.
 
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Polot
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
LH owns 49% of Eurowings.

Eurowings is now wholly owned by LH.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 29):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
LH owns 49% of Eurowings.

Eurowings is now wholly owned by LH.

Then they should update their website. It says LH has the majority of voting rights but continues to own 49% of Eurowings shares. Following quoted from their website:

Lufthansa and Eurowings owner Dr. Albrecht Knauf have concluded a voting trust agreement under which Lufthansa acquires a majority of voting rights in Eurowings. No changes are made to the ownership structure at present: Lufthansa continues to hold 49 per cent shares of Eurowings.

[Edited 2012-09-16 15:18:31]
 
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Polot
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
Then they should update their website. It says LH has the majority of voting rights but continues to own 49% of Eurowings shares. Following quoted from their website:

I'm basing my comment on what is written under the history section of www.eurowings.de about what occurred last August. But I don't know if they were talking about actual shares or voting rights, my German isn't that good.

[Edited 2012-09-16 14:42:13]
 
finnishway
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting laolao (Reply 21):

Success:
-Jetstar

Jetstar may be a success, but how did it affect QF? I think QF lost passengers and money to their own competitor, well I don't know is that a good thing or not. At least the financial situation of Qantas could be better.

Quoting chootie (Reply 27):
Just sad when LH,KL,IB etc feel they have to join the "we are the cheapest" bandwagon, and feel the rest of the planet feel the same way.

That is true. Sadly the glamorous days of flying are a thing of the past.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 32):
Quoting chootie (Reply 27):
Just sad when LH,KL,IB etc feel they have to join the "we are the cheapest" bandwagon, and feel the rest of the planet feel the same way.

That is true. Sadly the glamorous days of flying are a thing of the past.

But there is a flip side, people can now fly for cheap (not because they choose to be cheap, because they're poor)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Would such a low cost show up on LH website when looking for a flight, or would it be separate, like Transavia for AF-KLM ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 32):
Jetstar may be a success, but how did it affect QF?

Actually fairly well. JQ has only replaced QF on low yield tourist routes where QF's high cost structure simply didn't work. While it is true that QF pulled out of a lot of markets post-JQ, and that people therefore suggest that JQ is killing QF, are more realistic way of looking at it is that if it wasn't for JQ then QF would have pulled out anyway and be replaced with a different carrier. At least those passengers and revenue are still within QantasGroup.

I can't precisely say what is unique about JQ, but whatever it was QF did it right
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
VHHYI
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting laolao (Reply 21):
Success:
-Jetstar

I think it might have helped that Jetstar was based off an already existing LCC (Impulse Airlines) with its own cost base and structure lower than QF mainline (not enough to survive on its own, however).
As I understand it, some of the other LCC attempts by legacies were really just the mainline operation under a different brand.
This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
 
jc2354
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:26 am

They have already tried this with Lufthansa Italia.

Jack
If not now, then when?
 
Unflug
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 31):
I'm basing my comment on what is written under the history section of www.eurowings.de about what occurred last August. But I don't know if they were talking about actual shares or voting rights, my German isn't that good.

Your German isn't that bad either: they clearly talk about shares and 100% ownership since August 13th 2011.
 
Oykie
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting laolao (Reply 21):
More ideas?

SAS Snowflake Airline . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAS_Snowflake

It did not last too long.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
watching EU (and Asian) carriers make the same mistakes US carriers made 10-15 years ago

There is a lot of to learn from the TED, United Express and Song (Delta) experience. They did not succeed. It would probably have been easier for EU companies to not go down this route if they were allowed a chapter 11 type bankruptcy. This would have made it easier to re-organize an existing brand instead of going broke. EU airlines are not immune against reality, and reality is that there are too many airlines with an uncompetitive workforce and unions that do not see the bigger picture. There will be more consolidations and bankruptcies going forward in the EU.

The sad part is that the unions in Europe are allowed to demand unrealistic demands from their employer that in the end kills their employer. If the unions had seen the bigger picture and helped the management transform their airline we would not have a situation where pilots would be contracted from the Isle of Man and everything contracted out of the company.

So I see why LH feel forced to start a new LCC brand instead of finding smarter ways to cut costs. The recent strikes at LH is a bad example of unions killing their own job.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting laolao (Reply 21):
Failure/ Re-Integration:
-Germanwings
-bmi baby
-Go
-Lufthansa direkt




More ideas?

Ted
Metrojet
Song
Centralwings
Snowflake
Buzz
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
BMI727
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 40):
Song

I'm not sure you could call Song a failure. It ended up being a sort of testbed and some Song elements are now part of mainline Delta.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:35 am

Could we add AnadoluJet to the list of failed ventures?
 
callumm92
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 25):
Germanwings is the wrong name for an Europen LCC.

I think it's quite a good idea actually - Germanwings is a good brand and a popular airline. Keeping that identity would be a good move in my opinion. Although obviously the intention is to operate around Europe, why not promote the 'German-ness' of the company? Norwegian does the same thing, and I don't really think it harms them on their routes not involving Norway.
 
chootie
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:51 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
But there is a flip side, people can now fly for cheap (not because they choose to be cheap, because they're poor)

....And have you taken notice to the rif-raf on board aircraft lately?????
And to top it off, they pay rock bottom--but EXPECT to have the same high quality product. LCC and quality seem to be the OXY-MORON of the times ----like I said, plain sad.....       
chootie
 
Burkhard
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:07 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 26):
What is sad about that? The cheaper the better, the more often we can fly to visit family, go on holiday, and save the company money on business trips.

Many of our friends here on a.net work for an airline or worked for an airline. They have every good reason on earth to be against this race to the bottom, because they are those who pay for it or have friends who pay for it by lower incomes and worse working conditions.
Then there are many business flyers who are not eager to save companies money, but see flying as a way their company pays them a "luxury" or a status they think they are worth, and do not have to pay taxes for the difference between this "luxuray" and the lowest possible price, these are also a good fraction of users here. Remember there are still companies that allow employees to use miles collected on business for private trips, and countries in which miles do not need to be taxed.
Then there are travel agents who suffer under low ticket costs and the online self booking of tickets.
Only few members here pay their tickets from own taxed money and cannot get a refund from the tax payer as a business expense.


Quoting kl911 (Reply 26):
They might use the Eurowings name.

Difficult to say. the word "Euro" is not so popular these days. Germanwings is fine as long as one end of the fligt is in Germany, but to fly from Poland to Austria not such a good idea.
I would try to keep name and logo as near to Lufthansa as possible, with names like Cityhansa or even Lufthansa European - my reason for it:
Most passengers, even those which are very price sensitive, know and respect the Lufthansa brand, and are willing to pay 10€ more for a ticket on a plane with Lufthansa on it compared to any LCC name. Even with Easyjet a respected name, if a city pair would be served by Easy for 59€ one leg and LH 69€ one leg, I expect LH to get more bookings even if the hard product, an A320 with 16x seats, and service level is the same.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:09 am

Germanwings is becoming more and more integrated with Lufthansa, especially on routes to LHR where they operate from secondary cities like Stuttgart with LH focussing on the hubs like MUC, FRA and DUS. Not really a solid basis for an extended LCC??
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 46):
Germanwings is becoming more and more integrated with Lufthansa, especially on routes to LHR where they operate from secondary cities like Stuttgart with LH focussing on the hubs like MUC, FRA and DUS. Not really a solid basis for an extended LCC??

well, but that seems to be exactly what the intention is. LH has a choice, cut all the loss making, not hub centred routes or make them profitable, or better said, self sustainable.

What is wrong with that? Let#s wait and see what they come up with and that can be discussed,

At the moment it's fishing in the dark, or, "Spoekenkiekerei".
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HachikoDog
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:35 am

Is it so that in today´s air travel market national carriers are not so profitable? I mean you have to have an idea or a concept for you company: LCC or five star airliner.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Plans To Start New Low Cost Airline

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:48 am

An LCC sztarts from a clean sheet, legacy carriers have grown structures. SWA is, meanwhile a legacy carrier with grown structures., not too far from other US carriers, who have revised their cost structures taking the path of chapter 11.

LH is far from bankcruptcy, but that's exactly the time when a responsible management has to take measures to stay in that comfortable position. . A responsible union will see that it is better to have a dual structure, with higher paying jobs remaining in main line and lower paying jobs in feeder (where that seems to be already the case) and new ventures that enables to keep routes which otherwise would not pay their way.
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