duncan16
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Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Recently, Reuters ran a piece about the B787 dimmable windows not getting dark enough and that ANA was seeking a solution. Now there is a report about the windows not blocking enough heat either, and a carrier is offering a stick-on covering as a "solution." Except from the report: "My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable. At one point I stuck the cardboard briefing card into the frame to help stay cool. When a flight attendant saw me do this, she came over and handed me a black, self-stick window blotter. Apparently I'm not the only one to find this bothersome." Here's the full article: http://www.flickr.com/photos/globetrodden/7990143297/ Has anyone seen these so-called blotters? What a pity this is needed on such a remarkable aircraft. How could Boeing not have known this would be a problem?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
Except from the report: "My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable

Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.
 
gigneil
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:27 am

They do not, no . A regular windowshade holds the heat much better.

NS
 
Unflug
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.

Not really:

- a normal windowshade is able to block 100% light
- a normal windowshade can be opened and closed instantly
- a normal window and a windowshade with a white or bright colour on the outside will not get hot from the sunlight
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
They do not, no . A regular windowshade holds the heat much better.

Well tell that to the windowshade on one of my last flights that got quite hot to the touch.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 3):
- a normal window and a windowshade with a white or bright colour on the outside will not get hot from the sunlight

Yes, they will. You may have been lucky enough to have low sun angle or be on the shaded side of the fuselage, but regular sunshades in direct sunlight at altitude can easily get 20 degrees above cabin temperature.

Tom.
 
aviateur
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 am

I am the one who wrote the "report" that the thread-starter cites. (Actually it was just the caption to a photo I posted in my archives on Flickr.com)

I flew aboard a JAL 787 a few days ago, from Boston to Narita, and in my opinion the windows let in too much ambient light and, especially, too much heat. Here's what I wrote...

"...Instead of a traditional draw-down shade, the glass is tinted electronically, with a push-button. It never fully opaques, even at full dark, and the effect is a bit like being under water: you can make out certain details, but most of the color and sunlight are filtered away. The world is rendered in a leaden, green-grey tint similar to the way things look under a very bright full moon. It's a nice idea in that you always have a view. Unfortunately, in direct sun, much of the heat still leeches through. My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable. At one point I stuck the cardboard briefing card into the frame to help stay cool. When a flight attendant saw me do this, she came over and handed me a black, self-stick window blotter. Apparently I'm not the only one to find this bothersome. In addition, it takes several seconds for the tinting to take effect. When the plane banks and suddenly you've got the sun bearing down on you, it takes 15 or 20 seconds for the glass to go dark. Perhaps a simple shade would have been a better (and less expensive) option? ..."


Bear in mind that the left side of the plane, where I was seated, was in DIRECT line with the late afternoon sun. Under MOST flight conditions there won't be a problem.

PS

[Edited 2012-09-16 18:45:45]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.

If this were true they would not have pre made cut outs. I dont remember getting a pre made cut out on my last flight with a windowshade! Face it boeing made a mistake with this dimmable window no way around it. They Fu@%ed up once again on this aircraft

[Edited 2012-09-16 19:50:02]
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
If this were true they would not have pre made cut outs.

The premade cutouts are for broken windows, and people who find the current max dark not dark enough. Note though that even the current roll down shades let some light through, and get very hot in prolonged direct sunlight. You know, the same issues reported here.

And no, a stick on label wouldn't fix the "heat" issue past a short time where it took the time to warm itself up.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:31 am

[quote=XT6Wagon,reply=8]The premade cutouts are for broken windows, and people who find the current max dark not dark enough. Note though that even the current roll down shades let some light through, and get very hot in prolonged direct sunlight. You know, the same issues reported here.

.... so.... yah.......I was talking about keeping the light out. similar to what you would get with a normal windowshade. Clearly the dimmable feature is not able to block it like a normal windowshade its a bad design

From a reuters article on the 787 windows not being acceptable to people "The Japanese airline is looking to install pull down blinds on 787s "
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...s-ana-boeing-idUSBRE85J08J20120620

There are articles and random peoples trip reports of people complaining about this design failure on daytime flights on the 787s. Personally i have not seen one in person but i think it looks like a design flaw if we are talking about this once again on here.

[Edited 2012-09-16 21:07:56]
 
gothamspotter
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
Recently, Reuters ran a piece about the B787 dimmable windows not getting dark enough and that ANA was seeking a solution.

This was quite awhile ago, and ANA has since disputed its accuracy.

See: http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...787-dreamliner-windows-dim-enough/
 
spacecadet
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 10):
This was quite awhile ago, and ANA has since disputed its accuracy.

Which doesn't speak anything as to its actual truthfulness. Companies say whatever benefits them most at a given point in time.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
duncan16
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:48 am

I agree, companies always say to the public what benefits them the most. I have not yet flown on the B787 so have no experience from which to either confirm or refute issues that might be related to the dimmable window shade. But I've a basic question: if the amount of heat or light or both coming into the cabin is NOT an issue, why would a stick-on window blotter be custom made, and why would airlines have them onboard to distribute?
 
9VSIO
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 12):
But I've a basic question: if the amount of heat or light or both coming into the cabin is NOT an issue, why would a stick-on window blotter be custom made, and why would airlines have them onboard to distribute?
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 8):
The premade cutouts are for broken windows,

QED  
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
gothamspotter
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 11):
Which doesn't speak anything as to its actual truthfulness. Companies say whatever benefits them most at a given point in time.

More than a dozen 787s have been delivered and tens of thousands of people have flown 787s, yet the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed. If there were any legitimate, widespread complaints, the media would have been all over it.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 14):
the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed

But it is not the only report, just look at what Aviateur wrote above.

This issue needs more testing. Wonder when I can get onboard to test  
 
Unflug
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
Yes, they will. You may have been lucky enough to have low sun angle or be on the shaded side of the fuselage, but regular sunshades in direct sunlight at altitude can easily get 20 degrees above cabin temperature.

Maybe your 20 degrees are correct. That doesn't change the fact that under the same conditions a dark object will absorb significantly more heat and its temperature will rise even higher.
 
TC957
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting Unflug (Reply 16):

And we have RJ getting 787's with their dark colour scheme and high summer temperature operating enviornment, and of course QR & EY as well. I wonder if Airbus will install this window shading feature in their A350's ?
Must say, on the domestic ANA flight I had earlier this year, I had a window seat on the sun side of the 787 and don't recall getting fried.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 14):
More than a dozen 787s have been delivered and tens of thousands of people have flown 787s, yet the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed.

No, this is not the first time that there are complaints about the shades. We had a similar tread some month ago.
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BE77
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:06 am

Quoting aviateur (Reply 6):
Perhaps a simple shade would have been a better (and less expensive) option? ..."

We can debate the heat issue, the time to darken, and how dark the window gets, but in 2012 the dimming window is very likely much less expensive to install, maintain, and even replace than a window shade! This is mostly beacause there has to be a window anyway, and adding some electronics to it is pretty simple, especially at the design stage. An entire IPhone5 screen is apparently less than $8 (and I KNOW that you can get an Iphone4 screen replaced for $100 including labour). As long as the new windows are reasonably reliable over time, then the weight, complexity, and service costs of fixing the classic pull down blinds means we'll see more of this sort of thing in the future. (On a 787 the weight alone must be a saving of >100kg including the supports for tracks, etc., and a lot less parts to install during manufacturing).

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
I dont remember getting a pre made cut out on my last flight with a windowshade!

I do, the last time my window shade was broken.

I 'think' I prefer to have the window completely dark...but...even with a shade, there is always some ambient light in the cabin, and even more now than before with all the IFE, computers, and especially now the Ipads, Readers, Phones, and other tablets. There is probably a lot more light inside the cabin now than ever before. So really, do we need 100% blackout ont the window when there is much more light inside than the window will let through?

The heat thing is also a bit annoying, but measured accurately, is probably also not much diffferent, if at all. My window shade was pretty warm last week (east side, morning flight to BGI, A319). Still not as warm as the air once the doors opened on the ground.

Since I have all these 'perceptions' that conflict with my attempts at logically removing bias caused by previous experiences, I fully agree with...Mr Critic here  
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 15):
This issue needs more testing. Wonder when I can get onboard to test

Speaking of the perceptions and experience based bias...we didn't need 100% blackout screens on DC-6's and Connies, we had proper curtains like civilised people (which is likely how the a.net threads would have read).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roland Bergmann-Spotterteam Graz



Once I experience the dimmable shades, I am going to wonder why the airliners I have ridden didn't have two sliding shades - one tinted, the other solid, all along? What else have we missed out on!?!


Anyway, with the significant potential for cost savings, etc., I am pretty sure we'll see similar windows on every new design - and it wouldn't surprise me to see them in NEO's and MAX's as well if they prove to be as low cost to manufacture and maintain as expected. As with everything else electronis, I imagine we will see a "Mark II" which darkens faster and more completely as well (Iphone is up to it's 6th version since 2007!).
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RickNRoll
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:45 am

Dark colours absorb more energy than lighter colours, which tend to reflect sunlight. I think that would explain why the 787 windows would feel hotter.
 
divemaster08
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:11 pm

Seems to be another company out there that makes this kind of product also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk

This product looks very similar to the Boeing one (maybe the same company but they dont list the 787 as their product) and this looks to go fully black to blackout sun.

Says its on use on the A380 also! Which airline has them?
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CZ346
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:09 pm

Pardon any nievety or pre-addressed inquiries, but wouldn't the shear size of the windows on the 787's play a roll into this as well? I mean - we are talking about a window thats 1.8 times the size of windows in the past; I would think that would play a bit of a roll into all of this as well... Not debating issues rising from the electronic window or anything but I would tend to believe that would cause some of the issue as well.
 
aviateur
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
The heat thing is also a bit annoying, but measured accurately, is probably also not much diffferent, if at all.


I spend my life on planes. Granted my window was in direct line with the sun for a prolonged period, but I'm telling you the heat was very annoying. It was MUCH more noticeable than the radiant heat coming through a normal shade.


The other problem I had with the window was the TIME it takes to darken. The plane would bank, and suddenly I'd have the full sun beaming in on me. With a normal shade, I could have reached up and instantly addressed this, pulling it down all the way, half way, or however much I needed. With the electronic tinting, however, there's a long delay. You press the button and wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. In the meantime you need to use some other means of blocking the sun.


The "blotter" was given was a heavy black piece in the exact shape of the window. It had a soft, felt-like material on one side, and a glossy surface on the other, for adhering to the pane. It stuck nicely and did not fall or peel. Not sure if it's a JAL product, Boeing product or whatever.

I didn't ask for the blotter. A flight attendant came and handed it to me, after she noticed I was having trouble with the heat. I had taken a pair of safety cards from the seat pockets and wedged them into the frame, creating a makeshift shade.


PS

[Edited 2012-09-17 07:04:11]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
BE77
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 22):
Pardon any nievety or pre-addressed inquiries, but wouldn't the shear size of the windows on the 787's play a roll into this as well?

Good point!
Certainly would increase the amount of radiation generated hear in. Shouldn't make it 'hotter' but certainly there is more heat to deal with. The dimmed screen should still 'stop' most of the heat from entering the cabin as light and heating up 'everything' in the cabin, but the heat actually absorbed in the window would be more because of the area.
The colour of the glass is not the only thing that matters (ie, while darker does absorb more light), but for glass there is the whole transmissivity thing to think about - ie - how much does the dimmed window reflect vs absorb. With a white shade, the light that goes through the window heats the window a bit, hits the shade (heating it a bit) then the light is re-emitted by the shade and goes back through the window and heating it a bit more before it leaves the plane again. If the new glass is just a bit more reflective, especially of the frequencies that carry most of the heat (such as infra-red, which is often a design goal with windows anyway), then perhaps there is less energy already to deal with.

Since light is just energy at frequencies we can see, it's odd to think about, but if we could see in radio frequencies then the entire airplane would be transparent!
Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
 
airbazar
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting BE77 (Reply 19):
We can debate the heat issue, the time to darken, and how dark the window gets, but in 2012 the dimming window is very likely much less expensive to install, maintain, and even replace than a window shade!

If that was true most homes would have them by now. I would venture a guess that they are not less expensive.
Having said that, I have never flown on a 787 but I also never bought into the electronic window shade gimmick. The only advantage of the electronic window shade is for the crew not the passenger, because it allows the crew to override the passenger's commands without having to walk down the aisle. I would like to see the ROI study for that one  
 
sunilgupta
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 8):
Note though that even the current roll down shades let some light through

In my experience that statement is only partially true. It is true for shorthaul/domestic aircraft, but almost all longhaul aircraft window shades block 100% of the light (except what leaks around the edges sometimes). On the somewhat rare occasions on United longhaul flights when ALL the passengers listen to the announcements and close their shades, the cabin is very dark.

Sunil
 
babybus
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:40 pm

I think the 787 will run into trouble in operation with Middle East carriers. They hate sunlight in the cabin especially in summer. It's normal to walk onto a plane with the shades closed and the air-con on full blast.

Maybe Boeing will need to invest in a proper window shutter?
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:33 pm

I think the dimmable window shades are a bit of a gimmick really.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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rampart
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 20):
Dark colours absorb more energy than lighter colours, which tend to reflect sunlight. I think that would explain why the 787 windows would feel hotter.

Hughes Airwest installed some sort of external foil-reflective material on their windows, in part to reflect solar rays that would be pretty annoying, flying out of their desert hubs in PHX, LAS. I can't find a good example that illustrates this in the A.net photo database, but here's an old newspaper article that mentions it.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...&sjid=j_gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5629,3572689
I've seen it personally, but no "proof". I'm guessing that it was expensive to maintain, otherwise we'd have seen more of it.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 28):
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

But old shades do break, and do require fixing. How much, I don't know. But reasonably common?

-Rampart
 
CM
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 14):
tens of thousands of people have flown 787s

ANA's 787 fleet had carried more than 100,000 passengers as of January. I suspect by now the total 787 fleet is WAY past 1M passengers flow.

http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/e/local/..._ana/corp_info/pr/2012/120113.html

Quoting TC957 (Reply 17):
I wonder if Airbus will install this window shading feature in their A350's?

The last I heard, dimmable windows were an optional feature on the A350.

Quoting divemaster08 (Reply 21):
Says its on use on the A380 also! Which airline has them?

I believe it is to be used on some VIP versions of the A380. Not pax versions.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
Clearly the dimmable feature is not able to block it like a normal windowshade its a bad design

The dimmable window technology in the 787 can be made to block nearly 100% of all visible light, but Boeing chose not to... ironically as a benefit to the passengers. This may have been a tactical error, but the strategic decision to go to dimmable windows is very sound for the reasons mentioned already in this thread (and many other threads) - there are overwhelming reasons why the dimmable shades were chosen over mechanical shades.

If it turns out the consensus is the current dimmable panes do not go dark enough, the issue can be addressed by Boeing through a change of the chemistry of the electro-chromatic gel in the dimmable pane. Changing these panes out takes less than 5 minutes per window.
 
jsafford
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:11 pm

I had my first 787 flight a couple weeks ago onboard a JAL 787 from Boston to Narita. I was a HUGE "Fan-boy" of the 787 ever since the beginning and was itching to fly on one for years. However, this flight really knocked the wind out of my excitement -- with the windows being one of the biggest issues for me.

First off, the simple two-button switches for both windows at my seat were broken! I was traveling with two friends who were seated on the opposite side of the plane, and their switches were broken too. At first I thought that the flight attendants had blocked local control over our windows and forgot to turn that feature off, but then I noticed people in front of me and behind me freely controlling their dimmable windows at will. I had to ask the flight attendants to manually dim down or un-dim the windows whenever I needed them too. And, once they were dimmed down, I realized that the "un-dim" button worked, but only by making it 100% un-dim, and no level in between -- but then I couldn't ever dim it back down. So, there were several occasions where I had to call a flight attendant to control the window for me from their panel.

Second, while I thought it was very cool to be able to still "See" out the window even though it was fully dimmed, and I kinda liked the blue-hue that the light coming into the cabin had... I was SERIOUSLY frustrated trying to sleep. I was on the left side of the plane from Boston to Narita, and for a 2-3 hour period, the sun was BLARING in my face as I was trying to sleep. It was really uncomfortable and not conducive for sleeping, and I also felt the heat issue that everyone is talking about. I had to pull the blanket over my head to block it out. (I attached a picture of the window at FULL DIM level... note how you can still 100% see everything, it's just kinda "blue-ish".

A couple other issues I had were:

- At least four times throughout the flight there was huge wafting sewage smells blowing through the business class cabin. I was 3 seats back from the toilets, and was very surprised to have been overcome with such a horrid smell several times like that.

- The power suddenly and completely shut off throughout the whole plane for about 15 minutes (lights, power seats, entertainment system, bathrooms... everything that wasn't flight related)

So, my first 787 flight was kinda a bummer, and I found my return flight on a 777-300 to be infinitely more comfortable as I had direct control of my environment at all times.

However, I did appreciate the 787's extra air-pressure and humidity. I noticed I "dried-out" a lot more on the 777 than the 787. And, the view out of the 787's windows is simply spectacular.

787 window fully dimmed, but with sunlight glaring in.
 
707lvr
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:34 pm

I told you guys these things would be a disaster, and they haven't even started breaking yet.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 32):
I told you guys these things would be a disaster, and they haven't even started breaking yet.

It seems they are already broken:

Quoting jsafford (Reply 31):
First off, the simple two-button switches for both windows at my seat were broken! I was traveling with two friends who were seated on the opposite side of the plane, and their switches were broken too. At first I thought that the flight attendants had blocked local control over our windows and forgot to turn that feature off, but then I noticed people in front of me and behind me freely controlling their dimmable windows at will. I had to ask the flight attendants to manually dim down or un-dim the windows whenever I needed them too. And, once they were dimmed down, I realized that the "un-dim" button worked, but only by making it 100% un-dim, and no level in between -- but then I couldn't ever dim it back down. So, there were several occasions where I had to call a flight attendant to control the window for me from their panel.
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sweair
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:33 pm

If they work I can see the FAs love them, no more nagging about the shades or manually messing with them.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:53 pm

So before anyone flew on a 787, the complaint was that they'd be 100% opaque.

Now that people are flying on the 787, the complaint is they are not 100% opaque.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't, I guess.

And having been on many a large airliner with traditional shades, in direct sunlight they let in a fair bit of ambient light and heat.
 
MSR777
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:55 pm

I was quite looking forward to a future trip on a 787, now I'm not so sure. Seriously though, I guess that every new airliner has a few teething problems. I still think that the 787 is a pretty slick piece of engineering.
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 22):
Pardon any nievety or pre-addressed inquiries, but wouldn't the shear size of the windows on the 787's play a roll into this as well? I mean - we are talking about a window thats 1.8 times the size of windows in the past;

What are the dimensions of 787 windows? I didn't think they were much larger, if any, than MD-11 and DC-10 windows which are significantly larger (11 x 16 inches, about 25 to 30%) than on other widebodies prior to the 787. That was one of the best features of flying on the DC-10 and MD-11.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting aviateur (Reply 6):
The world is rendered in a leaden, green-grey tint similar to the way things look under a very bright full moon.

That's good to hear...if you ask the 787 window guys how they picked the tint level, it was supposed to be equivalent to a full moon at night.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 6):
When a flight attendant saw me do this, she came over and handed me a black, self-stick window blotter. Apparently I'm not the only one to find this bothersome.

The stickies exist for failed windows; they fail clear and you don't want a full clear window for the whole flight.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 6):
Perhaps a simple shade would have been a better (and less expensive) option?

Possibly better for passengers, although opinions will vary (I love the dimmables, personally). Definitely not better for the airlines.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
If this were true they would not have pre made cut outs. I dont remember getting a pre made cut out on my last flight with a windowshade!

Your last flight wasn't on an airplane where a window would fail clear unless it had a broken shade, at which point they would have had a delay while a mechanic fixed the shade.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
Face it boeing made a mistake with this dimmable window no way around it.

Lots of ways around it...I love the things.

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 12):
But I've a basic question: if the amount of heat or light or both coming into the cabin is NOT an issue, why would a stick-on window blotter be custom made, and why would airlines have them onboard to distribute?

Because it's been promised to the airlines since about 4 seconds after Boeing proposed dimmable windows an an airline rep said "What do we do if it fails clear?".

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
Quoting BE77 (Reply 19):
We can debate the heat issue, the time to darken, and how dark the window gets, but in 2012 the dimming window is very likely much less expensive to install, maintain, and even replace than a window shade!

If that was true most homes would have them by now.

Homes don't care about weight or have window shades that are manipulated several times a day, every day, for 20 years and expected to not require maintenance.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
The only advantage of the electronic window shade is for the crew not the passenger, because it allows the crew to override the passenger's commands without having to walk down the aisle.

That's probably the least advantage...it's really an ancillary benefit. The big advantages are:
-People can still see out even when the cabin is dark
-It's lighter
-It requires far less maintenance
-It's easier to build and assemble
-It is much easier and more efficient for the cabin crew to set the windows during turns (they don't have to walk the cabin to manually close all the shades).

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 28):

I think the dimmable window shades are a bit of a gimmick really.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

They're broke. As any interiors tech how often they have to work on the manual shades.

Tom.
 
aviateur
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
What are the dimensions of 787 windows? I didn't think they were much larger, if any, than MD-11 and DC-10 windows which are significantly larger (11 x 16 inches, about 25 to 30%) than on other widebodies prior to the 787. That was one of the best features of flying on the DC-10 and MD-11.

No, the best feature was the size of the COCKPIT windows. I had a chance to jumpseat several times on DC-10s. The aft cockpit windscreen on that plane was gigantic -- it had to be five feet, top to bottom. Sitting in the jumpseat, the glass extended from your knee all the way up over your head. Like your own private iMax screen. What a view!


PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
N62NA
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting jsafford (Reply 31):
(I attached a picture of the window at FULL DIM level... note how you can still 100% see everything, it's just kinda "blue-ish".

Wow, that picture makes it look like you're flying in the atmosphere of the planet Neptune or something!
How come I can't upload an avatar photo to my profile?
 
CXB77L
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
The only advantage of the electronic window shade is for the crew not the passenger, because it allows the crew to override the passenger's commands without having to walk down the aisle. I would like to see the ROI study for that one

I would disagree that it isn't to the advantage of the passenger, because these dimmable window shades allow a view of the outside world instead of having a 100% opaque window shade blocking the view. Personally, I appreciate being able to stare out the window for hours on end.

Quoting CM (Reply 30):
If it turns out the consensus is the current dimmable panes do not go dark enough, the issue can be addressed by Boeing through a change of the chemistry of the electro-chromatic gel in the dimmable pane. Changing these panes out takes less than 5 minutes per window.

As someone who enjoys a view outside, I sincerely hope that they don't make it any darker than it already is. The issue of not having a dark enough cabin can easily be solved by supplying eye masks to every passenger as part of their amenity packs.

Quoting jsafford (Reply 31):
A couple other issues I had were:

- At least four times throughout the flight there was huge wafting sewage smells blowing through the business class cabin. I was 3 seats back from the toilets, and was very surprised to have been overcome with such a horrid smell several times like that.

- The power suddenly and completely shut off throughout the whole plane for about 15 minutes (lights, power seats, entertainment system, bathrooms... everything that wasn't flight related)

I would imagine that just like any other new aircraft, the 787 isn't immune to minor teething problems.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 41):

I would disagree that it isn't to the advantage of the passenger, because these dimmable window shades allow a view of the outside world instead of having a 100% opaque window shade blocking the view.

Seems to me that only a percentage of people complains about the windows. These are the small percentage who were lucky enough to get a window seat.

As in an earlier thread, I suggests there is an opportunity for an entrepreneur to sell a window cover for the 787 that doubles as a pillow. I hear down makes very good insulation 

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1293
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting aviateur (Reply 39):

No, the best feature was the size of the COCKPIT windows. I had a chance to jumpseat several times on DC-10s. The aft cockpit windscreen on that plane was gigantic -- it had to be five feet, top to bottom. Sitting in the jumpseat, the glass extended from your knee all the way up over your head. Like your own private iMax screen. What a view!

I've also spent a fair amount of time in a DC-10 jumpseat during extended low-level firefighting ops. The visibility in a left-hand orbit at 1500' AGL is indeed spectacular and allows an unequaled assessment of the ground, the fire and everything below & around you when dealing with complex topography and many aircraft circling in close proximity. And really, is there anything more fun (um, while wearing a flight suit) than extended runs at 200' over forest fires, especially in a DC-10?
Still loving it after all these years.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
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RE: Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 43):
And really, is there anything more fun (um, while wearing a flight suit) than extended runs at 200' over forest fires, especially in a DC-10?

I can't even think of anything *without* a flight suit that's more fun than *that*.

Tom.

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