iowaman
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

WN/FL At MSP

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:23 pm

With MSP-MCI coming online February 14 and the partial FL integration this winter, WN still has a small but slowly growing operation in MSP. For those of you unaware, WN/FL operates out of the H.H.H. terminal (the "Humphrey terminal") with IcelandAir, SY, and NK. The terminal is relatively small (only 10 gates) but has doubled in pax counts since 2008. I'm hoping SY doesn't take too big of a hit if Southwest continues to grow there. From what I can tell, the gate allocations are as follows:

H1: SY
H2: SY
H3: SY
H4: Icelandair??
H5: SY
H6: NK
H7: WN
H8: WN
H9: FL
H10: FL??

WN has publicly stated in the past that MSP has performed better than expected. BNA, BWI, and LAS seem to be the next logical destinations, if Southwest decides to consider their slow growth at MSP.

Flight schedule as of Feb 14 2013 (27 daily weekday flights):

MDW 0600-0735
MKE 0610-0725
ATL 0615-0938 * Operated by FL equipment
DEN 0645-0800
MCI 0655-0825
PHX 0800-1040
MDW 0810-0945
STL 0940-1115
DEN 1040-1200
MDW 1055-1225
ATL 1123-1445 * Operated by FL equipment
MCO 1210-1615
MKE 1240-1345
MDW 1355-1520
STL 1500-1625
ATL 1500-1823 * Operated by FL equipment
PHX 1530-1800
MDW 1555-1720
DEN 1630-1750
MCI 1735-1900
MDW 1750-1920
STL 1810-1945
ATL 1810-2133 * Operated by FL equipment
MDW 1830-2000
DEN 1910-2025
MKE 1930-2035
MDW 2025-2155

Quite the slow but steady expansion when you consider WN started with just eight daily in March of 2009 to MDW. Of course FL was also flying to ATL at the time (and I'm assuming MCO and possibly MKE).
 
deltairlines
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Keep in mind that with Icelandair, we're talking about one flight that operates five months out of the year and is on the ground for about 2-3 hours total each day in the late afternoon/early evening period. Otherwise, that gate is free and open - I believe I've seen SY park at it in the morning for their initial push.
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:22 am

Clearly SY stands to lose the most from a WN expansion. NK also is not helping.

Minnesotans love Sun Country, they are quite loyal but WN has a way of pushing their way into markets.
 
iowaman
Topic Author
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 1):
Keep in mind that with Icelandair, we're talking about one flight that operates five months out of the year and is on the ground for about 2-3 hours total each day in the late afternoon/early evening period. Otherwise, that gate is free and open

Very valid point.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 2):
Clearly SY stands to lose the most from a WN expansion. NK also is not helping.

Minnesotans love Sun Country, they are quite loyal but WN has a way of pushing their way into markets.

DL is certainly the least affected - I feel for SY (I believe Sun Country is still privately owned?) .

What I find most interesting is markets like CLE and DTW, where DL and UA have a large presence as well, have been stagnant if not slightly decreasing scheduled service over the years on WN. MSP is still a fairly young station and will be at or slightly higher in daily flights. I do wonder though if there will be enough demand for 3x daily MKE-MSP to stick around long-term.
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:43 am

IIRC, SY had the best (or close to it) YOY passenger growth (on a percentage basis) of any airline at MSP in 2011. Unfortunately, SY probably has the most to lose with a new influx of LCCs at MSP, although at the moment, WN largely does not serve the same markets non-stop as SY.
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MountainFlyer
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting iowaman (Reply 3):
I do wonder though if there will be enough demand for 3x daily MKE-MSP to stick around long-term.

I might be mistaken, but didn't WN simply take over this route previously flown by FL?
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
B757capt
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:42 am

Let's not forget that FL actually flew MDW-MSP before WN did.
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Cubsrule
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting b757capt (Reply 6):
Let's not forget that FL actually flew MDW-MSP before WN did.

. . . with absolutely horrendous results (averaging below 20 local passengers per flight some quarters).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
B757capt
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):

Never said they did well, just said they ran it before WN.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
. . . with absolutely horrendous results (averaging below 20 local passengers per flight some quarters).

I miss those $29 MSP-CHI fare sales that FL used to run greatly.
 
iowaman
Topic Author
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 4):
IIRC, SY had the best (or close to it) YOY passenger growth (on a percentage basis) of any airline at MSP in 2011. Unfortunately, SY probably has the most to lose with a new influx of LCCs at MSP, although at the moment, WN largely does not serve the same markets non-stop as SY.


Looking at EOY Pax 2009 compared to 2011 though:

2009 2011
SY 982,997 SY 1,110,913
WN 571,786 WN 1,219,153

Neither statistic includes FL numbers (502,490 in 2009, 597,298 in 2011).

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 5):
I might be mistaken, but didn't WN simply take over this route previously flown by FL?

MKE-MSP is currently flown by FL, but will be taken over by WN sometime in November or December. There is a frequency drop or two with the switchover (not surprised).

Quoting b757capt (Reply 6):
Let's not forget that FL actually flew MDW-MSP before WN did.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
. . . with absolutely horrendous results (averaging below 20 local passengers per flight some quarters).

I had forgoten about FL flying MDW-MSP. It ended in May of 2008, nearly a year before WN started up MDW-MSP. It did almost as horrible as DSM-MKE is right now (which is being switched to WN DSM-MDW Sept. 30).
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 10):
Looking at EOY Pax 2009 compared to 2011 though:

2009 2011
SY 982,997 SY 1,110,913
WN 571,786 WN 1,219,153

Neither statistic includes FL numbers (502,490 in 2009, 597,298 in 2011).

You're correct. I went back and looked, and while WN's growth YOY (I wasn't going back to 2009, just 2010) slowed significantly vs 2009-2010, it was still a bit higher than SY's. WN had about 21% growth YOY in 2011, and SY had about 18%. Still two of the largest growth players at MSP.
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
michman
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 3):
What I find most interesting is markets like CLE and DTW, where DL and UA have a large presence as well, have been stagnant if not slightly decreasing scheduled service over the years on WN.

While I'm not sure of the actual flight counts on WN out of DTW, it seems like they've slowly increased their presence over the years. Flights to BWI were added in 2006 (before then, there were a number of East Coast markets where WN wouldn't even ticket out of DTW), DEN flights were added in 2009, and now a daily LAS flight starting on Sep. 30.
 
iowaman
Topic Author
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 11):
You're correct. I went back and looked, and while WN's growth YOY (I wasn't going back to 2009, just 2010) slowed significantly vs 2009-2010, it was still a bit higher than SY's. WN had about 21% growth YOY in 2011, and SY had about 18%. Still two of the largest growth players at MSP.

I wonder if we will see any SY growth in the near future? They seem to play it fairly conservative. They also have quite a bit of flying time dedicated to charters out of IFP.

Quoting michman (Reply 12):
While I'm not sure of the actual flight counts on WN out of DTW, it seems like they've slowly increased their presence over the years. Flights to BWI were added in 2006 (before then, there were a number of East Coast markets where WN wouldn't even ticket out of DTW), DEN flights were added in 2009, and now a daily LAS flight starting on Sep. 30.

While the assortment of destinations has grown, the number of flights have remained relatively the same for Detroit, but has significantly reduced in Cleveland. Previous connection cities such as MDW, STL, and BNA have seen cut backs. Not including any FL flying:

June 11, 2000:

11x MDW-DTW
6x STL-DTW
3x BNA-DTW
Sat. only PHX-DTW

Total: 20 daily (weekdays)

Sometime in 2005:

8x MDW-DTW
3x BNA-DTW
3x STL-DTW
1x PHX-DTW

Total: 15 daily (weekdays)

Feb. 17, 2013:

6x MDW-DTW
3x BWI-DTW
2x DEN-DTW
2x BNA-DTW
2x STL-DTW
1x PHX-DTW
1x LAS-DTW

Total: 17 daily (weekdays)

June 11, 2000:

6x BWI-CLE
8x MDW-CLE
4x BNA-CLE
4x STL-CLE
Sat. Only LAS-CLE

Total: 22 daily (weekdays)

Sometime in 2005:

8x MDW-CLE
5x BWI-CLE
4x BNA-CLE
2x STL-CLE
1x LAS-CLE
1x PHX-CLE

Total: 21 daily (weekdays)

Feb. 17, 2013

6x MDW-CLE
3x BWI-CLE
2x BNA-CLE

Total: 11 daily (weekdays)
 
smpplnohow2fly
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 3):
DL is certainly the least affected - I feel for SY (I believe Sun Country is still privately owned?) .

Yes by the same family that owns Cambria Counter tops, hense why you can see the Cambria logo on the aircraft.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Sun-C...d=8a5c916c6e0718f951dbf6ebdb37adb6

We'll see if the Mom and Pop airline can survive against SWA
The beginning is the end is the beginning
 
skycub
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):
6x MDW-CLE
3x BWI-CLE
2x BNA-CLE

Total: 11 daily (weekdays)

I know this thread is about MSP, and I don't mean to hijack it.... but CLE, in fact, is almost back down to its original 1992 flight schedule there which consisted of 10 daily flights (6 to MDW and 4 to STL).

Incredible that they have always held the lease on four gates there.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
HPRamper
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 11):
You're correct. I went back and looked, and while WN's growth YOY (I wasn't going back to 2009, just 2010) slowed significantly vs 2009-2010, it was still a bit higher than SY's. WN had about 21% growth YOY in 2011, and SY had about 18%. Still two of the largest growth players at MSP.

When you go from 12 planes to 14 as SY did I believe, and those new planes are a bit larger in size, the numbers come out very conveniently to an 18% increase.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):
I wonder if we will see any SY growth in the near future? They seem to play it fairly conservative. They also have quite a bit of flying time dedicated to charters out of IFP.

They have a grand total of 14 aircraft...I think conservative is the name of the game. It's a small company with not a ton of money in the bank with which to buy more planes. I would love to see it, but if they were any bigger I think they would attract unwanted attention from "suitors" who might want to steal some market share from DL out of MSP.
 
N908AW
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):
I wonder if we will see any SY growth in the near future? They seem to play it fairly conservative. They also have quite a bit of flying time dedicated to charters out of IFP.

CEO Stan Gadek always preaches profitability before growth and I think SY understands by now that they have no business trying to grab market share unless there's money to be made there.

A lot of people here seem to be overestimating SY's vulnerability because of WN's growth...and probably overestimating SY's market share to begin with anyway. Even with a couple dozen destinations, SY's market share at MSP is more or less equal to WN, AA, UA, and US. I suppose to some that's not surprising...but it's worth mentioning.

Sure, eventually we may see WN's future presence on things like MSP-SEA, MSP-LAS, MSP-LAX, etc...cut into SY's fares and yields, but it's been a long time since SY has wagered their overall success on these markets. SY is a small airline that is heavily diversified. As some have mentioned, charters now amount to almost half of SY's flying in the summer months (May-November). In the winter, a sizeable chunk of SY's flying is Mexico/Caribbean, which WN/FL won't ever match in MSP. Lest I also mention DL already goes toe-to-toe on basically every route there (except for HUX) and SY has flown there successfully for quite a while.

Plus, SY's exposure to WN is limited, too. Even on the routes they'll eventually compete with WN directly on (PHX, BOS, SEA, LAS, PHX...etc.), there are only two flights a day on those routes. Filling 300 seats a day is a drop in the bucket in WN's system. More than enough room for both. And as the statistics note (http://www.minnpost.com/business/2012/04/msp-figures-show-tepid-recovery-twin-cities-airport), WN's presence to this point has hurt DL considerably more than SY.

Quoting iowaman (Thread starter):
H1: SY
H2: SY
H3: SY
H4: Icelandair??
H5: SY
H6: NK
H7: WN
H8: WN
H9: FL
H10: FL??

SY "controls" H1-H5 but as others have mentioned Icelandair comes in on H4 (one of the international equipped gates at T2). SY used H6 in the winter pre-NK so I'm not sure what'll happen this winter.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting N908AW (Reply 17):
A lot of people here seem to be overestimating SY's vulnerability because of WN's growth

You made some excellent points in your post. Thank you. I hope you're right and the "Hometown Airline" continues on. I found a thread from when AS first started flying SEA-MSP, and everyone thought they were going to push SY off the route. Clearly, that has not been the case, and as you said, WN/FL does not (and likely will not) go toe to toe with SY on very many routes.
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mcg
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:29 pm

If I were WN I'd endlessly advertise in Minneapolis about 'easy acces' and the 'uncrowded' HHH terminal. The HHH terminal is very much easier and faster than the Lindberg terminal. To me it's a real advantage to WN in MSP.
 
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mariner
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting N908AW (Reply 17):
CEO Stan Gadek always preaches profitability before growth and I think SY understands by now that they have no business trying to grab market share unless there's money to be made there.

Hallelujah!

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 19):
If I were WN I'd endlessly advertise in Minneapolis about 'easy acces' and the 'uncrowded' HHH terminal. The HHH terminal is very much easier and faster than the Lindberg terminal. To me it's a real advantage to WN in MSP.

Very true. I love the HHH terminal except for security. Because there is only one security access point and virtually all HHH traffic is O&D, if you have a flight during peak times, it can take a long time to get through security. At the main terminal, at least if the main security checkpoints are busy, you can walk two minutes to the other end and get through in just a few minutes.
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usflyer msp
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 19):
If I were WN I'd endlessly advertise in Minneapolis about 'easy acces' and the 'uncrowded' HHH terminal. The HHH terminal is very much easier and faster than the Lindberg terminal. To me it's a real advantage to WN in MSP.

The HHH is smaller but not necessarily easier and faster nowadays due to the growth. The security lines in the morning are often horrendous now, stretching into the parking ramp. The concessions at the HHH are uniformly horrible. The traffic on the roadways and congestion in the baggage claim often create a zoo-like atmosphere in the evenings. The MAC is in the process of building a new checkpoint and improving the concessions but as of right now the status quo sucks.
 
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knope2001
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Quoting b757capt (Reply 6):
Let's not forget that FL actually flew MDW-MSP before WN did.

. . . with absolutely horrendous results (averaging below 20 local passengers per flight some quarters).

20 local passengers per flight would be a sharp improvement for MKE-MSP.
 
SJCMSP
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 19):

Lately, I've heard commercials around here that talk about the convenience of Humphrey (Terminal 2). I just can't remember right now if they were SY or WN commercials.
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):
I wonder if we will see any SY growth in the near future? They seem to play it fairly conservative.

To answer that question, it appears that YTD through July, SY has about 7.4% growth in passenger numbers vs. the same time period in 2011 on about 13% growth in ops YTD through July. Not as aggressive as 2011 it seems, but WN so far for the year is flat growth at MSP.

http://www.mspairport.com/about-msp/...rations-and-passenger-reports.aspx
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sunking737
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RE: WN/FL At MSP

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:16 pm

When SY had an "Airline Guy" CEO they made money. When a non airline CEO was at the helm they lost. example Petters/Lamacchia (lost money) Olson/Gadek (made money)

SY has also been conservative in operations when the right gentlemen was CEO. SY will continue to do what they do best. Size of fleet is not important what is, they like to control growth, and make money.
Just an MSPAVGEEK

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