PlaneInsomniac
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Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:03 am

After a series of recent incidents, including one with injured passengers due to turbulence and several planes which had to declare emergency due to insufficient fuel after a weather-related diversion, it seems Spain is losing its patience with Ryanair. The Spanish infrastructure minister is demanding that Spanish authorities be allowed to perform additional checks on Ryanair planes:

http://www.stern.de/reise/europa/nac...ie-geduld-mit-ryanair-1895787.html
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
kaitak
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:15 am

Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition. Their three weapons are fear, surprise, almost fanatical devotion to protecting Spanish airlines, and shiny red uniforms. Damn; among their weaponry is ...

Seriously, though, is this a big worry for FR? As long as their meeting the regulatory requirements of another member state (i.e. Ireland) all should be ok. I knew there have been issues in the recent past, but I suspect there is an element of politics here too?
 
kl911
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:41 am

They are protecting Iberia and Air Europa, and an airline suffering from turbulence can be blamed how exactly?? And the diversions due to weather all 3 had more then minimum required fuel onboard turned out later.

Im not worried, Im flying them to Spain 1-8 October, although im losing patience with the Spanish...
 
liffy1a
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:57 am

Spain should really be taking a look closer to home.

How about that dodgy Spanish outfit that crashed a metroliner in Cork? What did the Spanish authorities do about Spanair after there flaps-up take-off in Madrid? Also there ATC is without a doubt the worst in Europe.

Regarding the 3 Ryanair diversions from Madrid, it's funny how the skies opened up to let 9 Spanish aircraft land when most others diverted......
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting LIFFY1A (Reply 3):
Spain should really be taking a look closer to home.

Indeed, Just them protecting their poorly run airlines. It's expected in such a poorly run country.
Laughable they can whine about FR suffering turbulence lol, What a joke.. How dare Ryanair not control mother nature!!
 
Summa767
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition

Nobody does.   

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Seriously, though, is this a big worry for FR? As long as their meeting the regulatory requirements of another member state (i.e. Ireland) all should be ok

Indeed. And in any case, in there is indeed evidence of wrong doing by Ryanair, Spanish authorities can investigate.
But we have heard more noise and inuendo from the press and government than any real such evidence.
Even in the Valencia case, I am sure that Ryanair will not be found to have carried less fuel than the legal minimum. If the minimum needs to be changed (even if it's just when weather conditions are unfavourable at the destination airpiort), then Spain is welcome to bring forward such proposals to the Joint Aviation Authority.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I knew there have been issues in the recent past, but I suspect there is an element of politics here too?

Without a doubt. IB has good friends in government too.


El Pais, a newspaper than can be trusted to be less likely to fall in the hysteria that other media have, published an article yesterday that is more balanced, with opinions from a Spanish pilots union leader that have always been critical of Ryanair to that of Mr O'Leary.
The article dares to criticise AESA - the Spanish air safety agency, which in an audit report 2 years after the Spanair accident was found to have serious deficiencies. One of them was not systematically sending to OASI incident reports,and not been followed up by the government. This agency certainly lacks transparency.
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1347653069_726124.html (In Spanish)

One has to wonder if that is still happening. The maydays at Valencia (3 Ryanair and 1 LAN) were originally ignored according to the Avviation Herald. It says that it contacted the CIAIAC -Spain's air investigation branch - dependent of Fomento, as does AESA, and headed by a minister that has tacitally condemmed Ryanair and promised "sanctions" without naming the airline (referring to it as a foreign airline of deep routes) - about the incidents of the 26th July, and that "it saw no reason to start an investigation". This has apparently changed since, but we have yet to see of the more serious LAN A340 incident is part of the investigation, or if it's just a witch-hunt against Ryanair.

http://avherald.com/h?article=454af355

We should all be for more air safety, and more checks if necessary, but the partial way this is being treated by the Spanish government and the press that follows its lines -plus others who just fall for the sensationalism- is really quite troubling.
 
art
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:41 am

Am 26. Juli waren drei Ryanair-Flugzeuge mit Ziel Madrid wegen eines Gewitters nach Valencia umgeleitet worden. Die Maschinen hatten dabei den Notruf Mayday abgesetzt, da die Kerosinmenge ein kritisches Minimum erreichte. Anschließend wurden Vorwürfe laut, die Fluglinie setze die Piloten unter Druck, um die Maschinen aus Kostengründen nur minimal zu betanken.

http://www.stern.de/reise/europa/not...ie-geduld-mit-ryanair-1895787.html

The gist of the above is:

On 26th July 3 flights en route to Madrid encountered bad weather resulting in them declaring an emergency due to low fuel and being diverted to Valencia.

It was subsequently alleged that the airline pressurised the pilots to tank their aircraft to minimal levels on cost grounds,

Now it was not 1 flight to Madrid that had to divert. It was 3. Being aware of the weather conditions, why were the aircraft not tanked with greater reserves? I am sure the captains concerned would have done so, given a free hand.

I can see that it is disruptive to Spain having to deal with maydays in their airspace brought about by aircraft being tanked to the legal minimum even though weather conditions indicated greater reserves to avoid the problem of low fuel. The interest of the passengers in getting from A to B without a diversion to C on the way due to the carrier's penny pinching policies may not matter as far as Ryanair is concerned but declaring avoidable emergencies should matter to Ryanair. It seems to matter to the Spanish authorities. They may see this carrier as an irritating annoyance.

If you go to sea in bad weather, you make allowances so that you do not run out of fuel and need to be rescued. While it may be cheaper not to make allowances, you should not be surprised if people get pissed off with having to rescue you and take action against you to force you to behave more responsibly.
 
liffy1a
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:59 am

Quoting art (Reply 6):
I can see that it is disruptive to Spain having to deal with maydays in their airspace brought about by aircraft being tanked to the legal minimum even though weather conditions indicated greater reserves to avoid the problem of low fuel. The interest of the passengers in getting from A to B without a diversion to C on the way due to the carrier's penny pinching policies may not matter as far as Ryanair is concerned but declaring avoidable emergencies should matter to Ryanair. It seems to matter to the Spanish authorities. They may see this carrier as an irritating annoyance.

The biggest distuption to Spanish airspace is Spanish ATC. Do you know what kind of vectors the Ryanair aircraft got that night because generally they are very poor in Spain. Do you know how much fuel the Ryanair aircraft departed with? Also, it appears that the LAN emergency was a lot more serious.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I suspect there is an element of politics here too?


It's all about politics. I don't think it's a smart move either. How many passengers will Vueling bring to Spain this year?
 
kl911
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting LIFFY1A (Reply 7):
The biggest distuption to Spanish airspace is Spanish ATC. Do you know what kind of vectors the Ryanair aircraft got that night because generally they are very poor in Spain. Do you know how much fuel the Ryanair aircraft departed with? Also, it appears that the LAN emergency was a lot more serious.


It was confirmed afterwards that The Ryanair planes, all three of them, still had fuel above minimum level. In this case you can say it was bad judgement or pressure to land early. Anyway, nowhere was safety compromised.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:19 am

At times I think FR is its own worst enemy. It gets everyones backs up and then leaves itself open for criticism.

In this case, it would likely be politics that plays a part, but i think the airline itself really should learn that throwing dirt and making threats at every turn just makes others wary of their every move.
 
Summa767
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
It was confirmed afterwards that The Ryanair planes, all three of them, still had fuel above minimum level

Not so according to the AV herald. One FR was marginally below the minimum -having consumed 75Kg of the reserve. But that compares to the LAN than that according to the same report ate into 750 Kg of the reserve (and lost an engine -whether related to the low fuel or not,I would like to know)
 
DALCE
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:38 am

I believe Spain surely protects their own airlines at all costs but I also believe these measures originate partly in the way Ryanair has dealt with the various airport authorities throughout the country. Arguments like 'if we have to pay fees, we'll terminate our ops to your airport' will surely count in as well in this matter.
FR & Spain aren't friends and this is more about giving the other one a hard time, than that it is a serious issue.
It is a fact that FR had some issues in Spain lately, but having their fleet checked extra is over the top.

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Clydenairways
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting LIFFY1A (Reply 7):

The biggest distuption to Spanish airspace is Spanish ATC. Do you know what kind of vectors the Ryanair aircraft got that night because generally they are very poor in Spain.

This is correct, but.

If it is already a known fact that the Madrid ATC is very poor then you need to carry additional fuel for this.
Getting caught out and then saying that ATC is always crap in not an excuse.
If you know from daily experience that the ATC service is bad then you have to include that in your fuel calculations.
If you constantly get vectored and delayed then you need to PLAN for this.

That's the law.

If Madrid ATC is ALWAYS bad then it's NOT an unforeseen circumstance anymore.
 
tropical
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:06 am

A close relative of mine works for an airline in Spain and says Ryanair has few friends in the industry there. They have a reputation for requesting eyebrow-raising numbers of priority landings quoting low fuel. Needless to say competitors are not chuffed.

O'Leary doesn't help his company's cause earlier. When Spanair went belly up he made some rather crass and sneering comments about it to the Spanish media. I don't think Spanair employees and their families will ever forgive him for it.
 
liffy1a
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 13):
If it is already a known fact that the Madrid ATC is very poor then you need to carry additional fuel for this.
Getting caught out and then saying that ATC is always crap in not an excuse.
If you know from daily experience that the ATC service is bad then you have to include that in your fuel calculations.
If you constantly get vectored and delayed then you need to PLAN for this.

I don't know what happened but from the reports they did plan for all this, apparently 2 of the aircraft landed above final reserve and the other landed, according to a post above, having used 75kgs of final reserve. Should they have planned for the LAN engine failure as well, then again that was an unforeseen circumstance.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4):
t's expected in such a poorly run country.

Still better run then Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland. Oh and while the banks are mostly bankrupt the country itself has less debts then most country's in Europe.(even less then Germany)     

Quoting DALCE (Reply 12):
Ryanair has dealt with the various airport authorities throughout the country

Exactly, it's more a politics issue then safety issue.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 13):
Getting caught out and then saying that ATC is always crap in not an excuse.

Indeed.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 13):

If Madrid ATC is ALWAYS bad then it's NOT an unforeseen circumstance anymore.

It. might be a bad ATC however as you describe it should be known by all airliners.

I would rather fly any spanish airline than the crappy Ryan Air.   
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MIAspotter
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Im not worried, Im flying them to Spain 1-8 October, although im losing patience with the Spanish...

Well, if you are losing patience with the Spanish... you are welcome to cancel your trip on FR and ask MOL for a refund... oh wait...  

As for the Spanish Gov pushing the Irish authorities to investigate FR... well, I think it´s a bit too much, but it could be a good idea to pull their ears and shake them up a bit.

MIAspotter.
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aerdingus
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:56 pm

Ryanair being in the news for turbulence is completely ridiculous.
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asctty
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:02 pm

Spain's own airlines have been far from perfect of late as this article demonstrates:

http://www.murciatoday.com/spanish-g...es-operating-in-spain_13064-a.html
 
MIAspotter
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 18):
Ryanair being in the news for turbulence is completely ridiculous

Well, people were injured, that´s why they got on the news.

MIAspotter.
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enilria
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition. Their three weapons are fear, surprise, almost fanatical devotion to protecting Spanish airlines, and shiny red uniforms. Damn; among their weaponry is ...

Well done...  
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 18):
Ryanair being in the news for turbulence is completely ridiculous.

To be fair, the turbulence incident (with injuries) was only one aspect, along with the fuel emergency incidents and a couple others.

German pilot association Cockpit also openly criticized Ryanair for their fuel loading policy just a few days ago in the wake of the emergencies in Spain:

http://www.vcockpit.de/index.php?id=..._ttnews[cObj]=696&cHash=7b96c2a8cf

They also point out that Ryanair's subsequent explanations of the fuel emergencies were inconsistent and contradictory.
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realsim
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition. Their three weapons are fear, surprise, almost fanatical devotion to protecting Spanish airlines, and shiny red uniforms. Damn; among their weaponry is ...
Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
They are protecting Iberia and Air Europa, and an airline suffering from turbulence can be blamed how exactly?? And the diversions due to weather all 3 had more then minimum required fuel onboard turned out later.

[quote=Giancavia,reply=4]Indeed, Just them protecting their poorly run airlines. It's expected in such a poorly run country.
Laughable they can whine about FR suffering turbulence lol, What a joke.. How dare Ryanair not control mother nature!!

Could you please give us some facts, and not just dogmas, of how Spain is protecting our airlines? The facts are:

- Spain is Ryanair's largest market.
- Ryanair is Spain's nº1 airline in terms of passengers carried.
- Spain is the country, with the UK, where Ryanair has more bases (11).
- Among the 20 busiests airports in Europe, Ryanair only flies to 5 of them, 3 being in Spain: MAD (nº 5), FCO (nº 7), BCN (nº 9), LGW (nº 10) and PMI (nº 15).
- Until Spanair ceased operations, Spain was, with the USA, the only country in the world with 3 airlines from the 3 different big alliances.
- Until Spanair ceased operations, MAD was the only airport in the world (with LAX) where 3 different airlines from 3 different alliances had a base. And, apart from that, the 2 biggest low-cost airlines (FR and U2) also had a base there.
- Now that Spanair has closed, MAD is still the only airport being a base for two airlines from two different alliances, + FR.

And do you still believe that the Spanish Government wants to protect Iberia here? If they wanted to, they would have lobbied for IB when they tried to buy JK. If they wanted to, they would have increased airport taxes at MAD and BCN long time ago, and FR wouldn't fly there. If they wanted to, the Spanish Government wouldn't have approved a tax exemption in 2009 only for FR. And if they wanted to, the different Spanish regions and cities wouldn't give FR subsidies every year and they would give them to other operators.

So please, don't tell me that Spain is a protective country, cause we aren't. Look at how the competitive aviation panorama is in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium or other countries and then compare it to ours.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Im not worried, Im flying them to Spain 1-8 October, although im losing patience with the Spanish...

You are invited to cancel your trip, then. We have plenty of tourists, and we don't care about having one less if he has lost patience with us.

Quoting DALCE (Reply 12):
I believe Spain surely protects their own airlines at all costs but I also believe these measures originate partly in the way Ryanair has dealt with the various airport authorities throughout the country. Arguments like 'if we have to pay fees, we'll terminate our ops to your airport' will surely count in as well in this matter.
FR & Spain aren't friends and this is more about giving the other one a hard time, than that it is a serious issue.
It is a fact that FR had some issues in Spain lately, but having their fleet checked extra is over the top.

Politics v2.0 and nothing more
Quoting tropical (Reply 14):
O'Leary doesn't help his company's cause earlier. When Spanair went belly up he made some rather crass and sneering comments about it to the Spanish media. I don't think Spanair employees and their families will ever forgive him for it.

The Spanish media and the Spanish Government don't need to make bad press against Ryanair. The airline doesn't it for them everytime a passenger flies with them or everytime they threaten the Central or Regional Governments when they do anything they don't like. But the truth here is that, the day of 3 three emergency landings at Barajas, the bad weather affected everybody for a whole afternoon, but the emergencies for low fuel only came from 3 aircraft from the same company. And yesterday even the company had to publish a press release apologising for another incidence (and this is not something we are used to).

Quoting autothrust (Reply 16):
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 4):
It's expected in such a poorly run country.

Still better run then Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland. Oh and while the banks are mostly bankrupt the country itself has less debts then most country's in Europe.(even less then Germany)

   Less than Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Belgium, France, the UK, Germany, Hungary, Austria and Malta. But it's easy to blame the whole country only because there is a problem with a foreign airline that will probably end with anything against them.

[Edited 2012-09-17 08:34:07]
 
Summa767
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 23):
And do you still believe that the Spanish Government wants to protect Iberia here? If they wanted to, they would have lobbied for IB when they tried to buy JK.

I feel forced to point out that there is a different party in power in Spain that it's showing a different attitude.
Also, you cannot pretend that the national and regional governments act in unison. Not the case. Indeed, some communities in contrast to central government have defended giving subsidies to airlines (Air Nostrum, Vueling, Ryanair and iberia) and are not convinced by the safety scares.

Quoting realsim (Reply 23):
If they wanted to, they would have increased airport taxes at MAD and BCN long time ago, and FR wouldn't fly there. If they wanted to, the Spanish Government wouldn't have approved a tax exemption in 2009 only for FR.

It was a different administration in 2009 than it is now. It is also a different attitude.

Ryanair is certainly Spain's largest domestic airline, but I can see clearly that the central government is not happy with that.

Whilst I don't agree with some of the harsh comments that have been said about Spain in this thread, I do think that there is politics at the heart of the controversy, and that the are air safety issues much beyond Ryanair. The government seems to be looking at the speck in the eyes of others and not at the plank in its own.

Quoting realsim (Reply 23):
But the truth here is that, the day of 3 three emergency landings at Barajas, the bad weather affected everybody for a whole afternoon, but the emergencies for low fuel only came from 3 aircraft from the same company. And yesterday even the company had to publish a press release apologising for another incidence (and this is not something we are used to).

As it has been widely discussed, there was a 4th incident, that of LAN A340 that was more serious, and that has been curiously ignored.
There are incidents quite often, except that not all are reported.
If Spain was really serious about safety, it would just get on and be more transparent about logging and following up incidents on *all* airlines, including doing random checks. But as things stand at the moment, it is clearly a witch hunt. It has been handled in the most tendencious way.
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:51 pm

It's not all about the last few fuel diversions. Dutch & German media are now reporting on a new story from Spanish newspaper ''El Mundo'' which cites FR has been involved in 1201 problems. A few of the problems in the order as they are being named.

Cabin pressure problems.
Emergency landings due to fuel shortages.
Refusal to cooperate with unannounced safety inspections.
Deviations from flightplans.
Unjust boarding refusals.

Now i'll give FR some credit as things like the last spat of fuel diversions can happen to anyone & obviously i'll take a lot of these things with a grain of salt but it's quite the number. Anyway, if FR has their house in order they surely can't be too worried about any checks.
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UALWN
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 15):
Still better run then Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland.

Or the Vatican, for that matter....

Quoting realsim (Reply 22):
Less than Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Belgium, France, the UK, Germany, Hungary, Austria and Malta.

And much less than the US.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 23):
It was a different administration in 2009 than it is now. It is also a different attitude.

If anything, the previous administration was more prone to protectionism than the current one.
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kaitak
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 22):
Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition. Their three weapons are fear, surprise, almost fanatical devotion to protecting Spanish airlines, and shiny red uniforms. Damn; among their weaponry is ...

Sorry, I think you might have missed my rather hamfisted attempt at humour there; there is a famous routine from a British comedy troupe, which begins with three cardinals representing the Spanish Inquisition. One of their lines is "almost fanatical devotion to the Pope", so I had to change it to something more appropriate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

Believe me, as an Irishman, I'm not a great fan of Ryanair or Michael O'Leary and I can readily concede that his diplomatic skills are, shall we say, unique. I can readily understand that he would be capable of causing a great deal of injury; I can only imagine if a Spanish person with O'Leary's tact and diplomacy (Torquemada?) were to say some of the things he has said, in Ireland, he'd be hunted out of the country pretty darn quickly.

At the end of the day, you don't achieve the kind of growth FR has achieved in the 18 years since FR became a low cost carrier without being a bit of a bastardo.
 
JBH
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 22):
So please, don't tell me that Spain is a protective country, cause we aren't. Look at how the competitive aviation panorama is in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium or other countries and then compare it to ours.

Totally agree.

I have lived many years in Spain and the comments made here about the country and its politics are non-sense. Of course, there are problems and things that could be done better but that is the same for all European countries, also when it comes to aviation. I have taken many flights in and from Spain as well as in and from most other European countries, and some of the better experiences were in Spain.

I also flew Ryanair, and in my opinion there should be no surprise that these safety issues have come up (I strongly believe they are taking cost cutting too far).
 
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dwightm
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 9):
At times I think FR is its own worst enemy. It gets everyones backs up and then leaves itself open for criticism.

Even bad publicity is still publicity, in this case - FREE publicity. FR management wants to ensure it's name is spelled correctly in any & all publicity, good or bad.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 15):
Still better run then Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland. Oh and while the banks are mostly bankrupt the country itself has less debts then most country's in Europe.(even less then Germany)
Quoting UALWN (Reply 25):
And much less than the US.

25% unemployment as of July, lets talk about "well run"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_by_country
 
UALWN
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 30):
25% unemployment as of July, lets talk about "well run"

I was talking about debt: 70% of GDP in Spain, 105% of GDP in the US.

But we can also talk about unemployment. The real number is much lower than 25% because:
* There's still a fair amount of informal employment in the black (or grey) market.
* A much larger fraction of women are looking for jobs in Spain than in, say, the US. That skews the unemployment figures. Let's put it like this: as a fraction of the overall population, the number of employed people in Spain is not much different from that in the US, Germany, France, etc.
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 17):
Ryanair being in the news for turbulence is completely ridiculous.

Not in the context in which it is told.

They tell about three Maydays due to fuel shortage caused by weather. And then they indicate "between the lines" that FR rather flies head first into the worst turbulence, risking injured pax, instead of planning for weather (as if local, severe turbulence over Spain in July should be a big surprise). That way saving some droplets of fuel and not risking a fourth Mayday by not spending time and fuel on flying around the worst weather.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
It was confirmed afterwards that The Ryanair planes, all three of them, still had fuel above minimum level.

Two of them, one was slightly below minimum.

But the key point is that had they not declared Mayday, but had kept their place in the queue, then all three had been way below minimum.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
WROORD
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 15):
Still better run then Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Poland. Oh and while the banks are mostly bankrupt the country itself has less debts then most country's in Europe.(even less then Germany)

You must have a lifetime subscription to the Economist! I though this was an aviation forum not the European Parliament.
 
 
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autothrust
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 31):
But we can also talk about unemployment.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 25):
Or the Vatican, for that matter....

Some people should first look in the mirror before bashing.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 33):
You must have a lifetime subscription to the Economist!

No i don't have.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 33):
I though this was an aviation forum not the European Parliament.

It is a aviation forum and i did only reply to the ignorant and offensive political post.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
blueflyer
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:44 am

Maybe someone ought to take a long, hard look at Ryanair and how it operates, because the Irish Aviation Authority certainly isn't interested in doing so, despite entreaties from several other European countries. Too bad that someone is Spain, they have their own issues they ought to try and tackle with the same enthusiasm first, if they want to be taken seriously.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 24):
Dutch & German media are now reporting on a new story from Spanish newspaper ''El Mundo'' which cites FR has been involved in 1201 problems.

I'm going to assume it is 1,201 problems in Spain, because if it is network wide, well, that's 0.002% of all Ryanair flights per year...

Quoting realsim (Reply 22):
So please, don't tell me that Spain is a protective country, cause we aren't. Look at how the competitive aviation panorama is in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium or other countries and then compare it to ours.

You should ask pilots from these countries, and others, what they think of Spanish ATC...
I don't know whether it is official policy or jingoism, but there is a clear preference for Spanish carriers over at ATC, at the expense of all others.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 12):
If Madrid ATC is ALWAYS bad then it's NOT an unforeseen circumstance anymore.

You don't seriously expect Spanish ATC to be consistently bad, do you? One day, they'll put you on hold longer than necessary, the next they'll keep you at a lower attitude for no apparent reason, and the third they'll make you miss your takeoff slot. Sure, you can assume the worst for every flight every day, but no one does, just like no aircraft takes off every day with enough fuel in case ORD is inaccessible for two hours due to a thunderstorm, even though it does happen, or in case LHR is closed by fog for three hours, even though that does happen too. You plan for a reasonable, "normal" delay and hope for the best...

[Edited 2012-09-18 01:04:24]
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
sweair
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:27 am

I have never flown with FR but I don't mind them existing, they seem to do ok and have a large customer base, despite all kinks to it. I do fly Norwegian a lot and compared to SAS I have nothing to complain about. But many in Sweden hate Norwegian as many hate FR, I used to fly Sterling before they went bankrupt too, I kind of like the LCC idea, get from A to B without the fuss of food,drink and pampering. For short intra EU flights I can live with minimum service level, its the destination that counts for me not the trip.
 
Summa767
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 34):

Ryanair responses

http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/openletter.pdf
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012...2.pdf

Some very serious accusations by Ryanair of the Ministry in charge of aviation safety in Spain.
It is a shame that an agency that should act with rigour and impartiality has fallen into this witch- hunt, which seriously reduces their credibility of this agency -which as El Pais reported, was a hugely deficient entity anyway.
And to top it all, it is all overseen by an incompetent minister.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 25):
If anything, the previous administration was more prone to protectionism than the current one.

Examples?

In any case, I don't think that the cause of this witch-hunt is protectionismper se. Just a particular case, be it because it is succumbing to pressure by its friends at IB, because they think that Spanish airlines should be leading the domestic market an not an Irish one. Who knows. Except that they have acted in a terribly unprofessional way, which detracts from the safety objectives themselves -if there were any.
 
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
You don't seriously expect Spanish ATC to be consistently bad, do you? One day, they'll put you on hold longer than necessary, the next they'll keep you at a lower attitude for no apparent reason, and the third they'll make you miss your takeoff slot. Sure, you can assume the worst for every flight every day, but no one does, just like no aircraft takes off every day with enough fuel in case ORD is inaccessible for two hours due to a thunderstorm, even though it does happen, or in case LHR is closed by fog for three hours, even though that does happen too. You plan for a reasonable, "normal" delay and hope for the best...

Im not suggesting taking two hours holding fuel on every flight just for the sake of it.

The issue was the combination of known factors that day, which an airline with lots of experience of operating into that airport would be aware of.

Forecast TS
Peak Time traffic
Poor ATC
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 38):

Ryanair responses

http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/openletter.pdf
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012...2.pdf

Some very serious accusations by Ryanair of the Ministry in charge of aviation safety in Spain.
It is a shame that an agency that should act with rigour and impartiality has fallen into this witch- hunt, which seriously reduces their credibility of this agency -which as El Pais reported, was a hugely deficient entity anyway.
And to top it all, it is all overseen by an incompetent minister.

I have my own gripes about FR but have to say that in this instance I am at a loss as to understand what the Spanish are doing here.....MLO clearly is hacked off and he will not settle for anything other than a very public apology IMHO. Should be interesting to see how this all spins out.
 
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mad99
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 40):
Should be interesting to see how this all spins out.

Most likely just die off.

I use fr to fly mad dub even though i'm platinum on AF/KLM. It's cheaper and direct.

If you play by the rules fr is as cheap as chips!
 
UALWN
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 35):
Quoting WROORD (Reply 33):
You must have a lifetime subscription to the Economist!

No i don't have.

But I do...

Quoting summa767 (Reply 38):
Examples?

The previous administration was socialist, and this is right-wing liberal. What else do you need?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
Summa767
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
The previous administration was socialist, and this is right-wing liberal. What else do you need?

Actually, what I was looking for was examples of how the previous government was more protectionist than the current one. I understand that ideologically a socialist government might be expected to be less market friendly-j, but the only thing I asked -and that you did not answer- is specific examples.
What I can see is that the current Spanish government is exercising a witch-hunt against Ryanair. As I said, I don't think that it is because of preotectionism per se.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 30):

But we can also talk about unemployment. The real number is much lower than 25% because:
* There's still a fair amount of informal employment in the black (or grey) market.
* A much larger fraction of women are looking for jobs in Spain than in, say, the US. That skews the unemployment figures. Let's put it like this: as a fraction of the overall population, the number of employed people in Spain is not much different from that in the US, Germany, France, etc.

I'll cite wikipedia, which you can disagree with if you'd like but there are usually decent sources behind the information there.

This suggests that the US has an Employment to Population ratio of 70.2% in 2012, and 66.7% in 2010. Spain had 59.4% in 2010, with no 2012 stats in the article. So to paraphrase your last bulletpoint into an actual statistic, as a ratio to population, the number of people employed in Spain in 2010 was 9% lower (7.3%pts) than the United States. Unless you are saying that the number of "grey market" employees in Spain far and away outstrips the US, then no, the ratio is not close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment-to-population_ratio

Spain needs Ryanair.
 
kl911
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 39):
.....MLO clearly is hacked off and he will not settle for anything other than a very public apology IMHO

That will come soon:

“We welcome today’s joint statement from the Irish and Spanish Governments which affirms that Ryanair’s safety standards are on a par with the safest airlines in Europe.”

source: http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryana...ement-from-irish-and-spanish-govts
 
UALWN
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 43):
This suggests that the US has an Employment to Population ratio of 70.2% in 2012, and 66.7% in 2010. Spain had 59.4% in 2010, with no 2012 stats in the article.

The overall Employment to Population ratio is basically meaningless, because, for instance, the US may have a larger fraction of the population in the age range 15-65. The relevant ratio is the Employment to Population ratio for the population of working age (say, 16-65).
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 45):
The overall Employment to Population ratio is basically meaningless, because, for instance, the US may have a larger fraction of the population in the age range 15-65. The relevant ratio is the Employment to Population ratio for the population of working age (say, 16-65).

You didn't click the link, those figures ARE for the population of working age. From the chart: "Employment-to-population ratio in OECD countries, Persons aged 15-64 years (percentages)"
 
UALWN
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 46):
You didn't click the link, those figures ARE for the population of working age. From the chart: "Employment-to-population ratio in OECD countries, Persons aged 15-64 years (percentages)"

My bad. Spain's ratio, however, is still similar to that of Belgium, Italy, Ireland, and not far from that of, say, France. If you add the "gray market", the differences are minimal. The 25% headline number is misleading.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
nycdave
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Bet they weren't expecting the Spanish inquisition.

NOOOOOOBODY expects the Spanish inquisition!

(sorry, had to).
 
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mad99
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RE: Spain Loses Patience With Ryanair

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:35 am