kl911
Topic Author
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:34 pm

BWI airport is about to pay British Airways 5,5 million USD per year for the next three years if BA continues serving the BWI-LHR route. This is an extension of a controversial deal closed between the two in 2006.


I know secundary airports in Europe do this, but I didnt know International Airports offer those deals to Legacy airlines too.

Quote:

British Airways offers a daily nonstop flight to London’s Heathrow Airport from BWI. The London-based airline carried more than 108,000 passengers out of BWI in 2011, accounting for less than 1 percent of the airport’s total passenger business.

The state Board of Public Works is scheduled to vote on the three-year extension on Sept. 19.

The Maryland Department of Transportation, if approved, will pay British Airways a grant not exceeding $5.5 million per year over the next three years to offer service out of BWI. The airline must meet an 8 percent operating margin during that time period.


Source : http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...tish-airways-subsidy-contract.html

[Edited 2012-09-17 12:35:18]
 
C010T3
Posts: 1619
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:41 pm

Well, that's a small price to pay in order to keep Baltimore competitive.
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:53 pm

In addition to BWI and IAD -- DCA could probably fill an all business-class 318 or 319 bound for London if there were a way of doing offshore pre-clearances. There's simply no place at Reagan to put an FIS facility.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:17 pm

Nobody is going to use a slow and small narrowbody against a better wide body option on Washington. The little Airbus is very niche and I am not sure that's the best use of a LHR long haul slot.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 4960
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):
In addition to BWI and IAD -- DCA could probably fill an all business-class 318 or 319 bound for London if there were a way of doing offshore pre-clearances. There's simply no place at Reagan to put an FIS facility.

DCA is a no go due to the perimeter rule.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:33 pm

Can we talk about BWI please and the service in particular?

108,000 pax outgoing that is 295 pax per day assuming the service operates once a day. Is that even possible given that a ba 767 has only up to 252 seats?

Assuming it is 2 way traffic (so outgoing-ingoing) that is only around 150 pax per flight or 55-60% load factor which is not that bad but would mean that the flight would need very high yields to be successful.

Now question is the flight advertised enough? I've never seen any adds here in Montgomery or Frederick county, 2 of the wealthiest counties in MD and 2 counties that could realistically be a good target.

Also since MD is paying the difference between 8% profit margin and the cost/profit of the flight, what kind of a say does Md have in terms of prices/marketing/preferred landing rates for the flight?
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:51 pm

I don't like the use of public funds to support air service for non existent demand since the market cannot support itself...BWI should be happy as a WN hub
Our Returning Champion
 
texan
Posts: 4061
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
I don't like the use of public funds to support air service for non existent demand since the market cannot support itself...BWI should be happy as a WN hub

If it brings a net public benefit, e.g. tourists who spend more time and money in Maryland or businesses that remain in or relocate to Maryland partially because of the LHR flights, why shouldn't public funds be used? If the people traveling between BWI and Heathrow add more than $5.5 million annually to the Maryland economy, the subsidy in one area ends up being a profit in another. Everybody wins.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
tonystan
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
The London-based airline carried more than 108,000 passengers out of BWI in 2011
Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 7):
108,000 pax outgoing that is 295 pax per day assuming the service operates once a day. Is that even possible given that a ba 767 has only up to 252 seats?

Well BAs 767s only have 192 seats so in a 12month period that is a max of 70080 seats into BWI and the same out of BWI so I think that 108000 figure means BA brought 108000 through the airport. BA can offer up to 140160 seats on that route so if you ask me thats a pretty crappy load factor!

I can imagine BA coming off the route if the subsidy was dropped!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
jetblast
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:19 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 13):
Well BAs 767s only have 192 seats

Partially true - 189 of those are used for passengers, the other 3 are technically crew rest seats that are not used for customers.

The flight is very full in the summer (and remains so this far into the year). In the winter, not so much.
Speedbird Concorde One
 
lawair
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:26 am

While load factors don't mean all that much, since we are discussing them, here are my calculations of the approximate load factors for the past few months of statistics, based on BWI's published statistics:

Aug '11 - 90%
Sep '11 - 86%
Oct '11 - 82%
Nov '11 - 74%
Dec '11 - 75%
Jan '12 - 66%
Feb '12 - 52%
Mar '12 - 75%
Apr '12 - 84%
May '12 - 87%
Jun '12 - 91%
Jul '12 - 87%

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
I don't like the use of public funds to support air service for non existent demand since the market cannot support itself...BWI should be happy as a WN hub

I definitely agree with "texan" here. The article says there is a $117 million economic impact on the airport each year from this flight. For, at most, a $5.5 million investment, that kind of economic impact sounds pretty good, and probably is a win for taxpayers.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 9):
I don't like the use of public funds to support air service for non existent demand since the market cannot support itself...BWI should be happy as a WN hub

I tend to agree. An initial support for the first two years I find acceptable, but after years a service should pay for itself or be axed.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:32 am

The way I read this is that BWI will pay to create an equivalent 8% operating margin. Also given that the flight is operated by a 767 at the moment and it's easy to schedule a dedicated aircraft on the route then BWI might well see one of the early BA 787s there.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:04 am

The State of Maryland obviously believes it is worth supporting this flight if required to keep an international connection. As others have said, that it is just to make sure BA achieves an 8% operating margin. Given BA's history of dropping supposedly profitable routes to open up new routes, if serving BWI didn't benefit BA I'm sure the route would have been dropped long ago. And I suspect that without the guarantee from the State of Maryland BA would drop the route and redeploy the aircraft at a shot.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
lapper
Posts: 1541
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 6:42 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting bombayhog (Reply 22):

In addition, arrival facilities are provided at a nearby hotel for showering etc.
 
iaddca
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:36 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:22 pm

The Baltimore region has neither the population levels nor the demographics to support European travel, and MD has serious intl service envy with the huge TransAtlantic schedule out of IAD. BWI is great for that cheap fare to Columbus, but besides that, it's a useless airport for anyone who doesn't want to cattle call.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting iaddca (Reply 26):
BWI is great for that cheap fare to Columbus, but besides that, it's a useless airport for anyone who doesn't want to cattle call.

Yet it's Washington's busiest airport...
FLYi
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting iaddca (Reply 26):
The Baltimore region has neither the population levels nor the demographics to support European travel, and MD has serious intl service envy with the huge TransAtlantic schedule out of IAD. BWI is great for that cheap fare to Columbus, but besides that, it's a useless airport for anyone who doesn't want to cattle call.

There's a big difference between BWI's 'marketing' region and their 'service' region. For marketing, Baltimore is lumped in with Washington DC (40 miles south) and its suburbs. But if you walk through the parking lots, you find dozens of car license plates from Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Virginia -- as well as Maryland.

Probably more of a factor is that IAD, BWI, PHL, EWR, and JFK -- which all offer international service -- are way too closely spaced.

IAD-BWI = 45 sm
BWI-PHL = 90 sm
PHL-EWR = 80 sm
EWR-JFK = 21 sm
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:59 pm

The Maryland Aviation Administration paid Aer Lingus too. When the subsidy stopped, they left. Part of the reason Icelandair left was because they were not offered an incentive to maintain service at Baltimore.

British Airways is extremely important to BWI. The prestige of the carrier, and professionalism of their ground staff go a long way to improve the standing of Friendship, I mean BWI.

The Aer Lingus deal was even sweeter than what British Airways gets.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
lawair
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 18):
The Maryland Aviation Administration paid Aer Lingus too. When the subsidy stopped, they left. The Aer Lingus deal was even sweeter than what British Airways gets.

Do you have an internal source for this? I have seen published reports that MAA was trying to lure Aer Lingus to return with some pretty hefty incentives back in 2007-08, but there didn't seem to be any evidence (in public) that Aer Lingus was receiving financial assistance while they were serving BWI. I don't doubt the need for the assistance during the 2002-2004 time frame however, as the route was on the bubble during that time. Pre 9/11, however, BWI was EI's most profitable route, according to the airline's own press releases.

Right now BWI is placing its European expansion hopes in Condor, which so far has done really well from BWI without any financial assistance, albeit at a very limited seasonal schedule.
 
jetblast
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:19 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting iaddca (Reply 15):
BWI is great for that cheap fare to Columbus, but besides that, it's a useless airport for anyone who doesn't want to cattle call.

If you say so. Many of the frequent fliers on the BWI-LHR flight (I am one) fly it not because of the 'cattle call' but because BWI is an incredibly easy airport to get to and fly from compared to IAD.
Speedbird Concorde One
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting lawair (Reply 19):

The Baltimore Sun published it. Whether the archives online go back that far or not, I don't know, however, I do know it was there. It can be verified by a former BA Station Manager.

BWI is too convenient not to use for International flights. Aircraft to curb in 20 or so minutes simply cannot be beat.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting FI642 (Reply 21):
Aircraft to curb in 20 or so minutes simply cannot be beat.

You got that right. Even with no moving walkways.
 
AA94
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 5):
108,000 pax outgoing that is 295 pax per day assuming the service operates once a day. Is that even possible given that a ba 767 has only up to 252 seats?

Assuming it is 2 way traffic (so outgoing-ingoing) that is only around 150 pax per flight or 55-60% load factor which is not that bad but would mean that the flight would need very high yields to be successful.

It is a once daily flight, and I'm assuming they're counting two-way traffic.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 5):
Now question is the flight advertised enough? I've never seen any adds here in Montgomery or Frederick county, 2 of the wealthiest counties in MD and 2 counties that could realistically be a good target.

I don't think it's advertised nearly well enough. People need to realize that, in its current state, BWI is good for more than just "cattle call" traffic.

Quoting texan (Reply 7):
If it brings a net public benefit, e.g. tourists who spend more time and money in Maryland or businesses that remain in or relocate to Maryland partially because of the LHR flights, why shouldn't public funds be used? If the people traveling between BWI and Heathrow add more than $5.5 million annually to the Maryland economy, the subsidy in one area ends up being a profit in another. Everybody wins.

  

Quoting jetblast (Reply 20):
If you say so. Many of the frequent fliers on the BWI-LHR flight (I am one) fly it not because of the 'cattle call' but because BWI is an incredibly easy airport to get to and fly from compared to IAD.

Absolutely right. I love the BWI flight because it's such a breeze to use. If I'm going to have to make a connection in JFK/ORD/DFW/MIA to get to Europe anyway, I'd rather just fly BWI-LHR-XXX and save myself some of the hassle.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:30 pm

Only $16.5 Million?

It's up there, but still doesn't beat DEN's $22M to UA for the DEN-NRT nonstop.

 
 
commavia
Posts: 9822
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 pm

I still contend that, at some point, perhaps in a few years when the AA-BA ATI/JV alliance is further deepened, this might be a viable market for one of the international JY-configured AA 757s - smaller plane, higher loads, perhaps lower subsidies. (Based on O&D and/or connectivity, I could also theoretically see AA 757s working on LHR-DTW/PIT and possibly even LHR-BDL.)

[Edited 2012-09-19 05:49:06]
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:14 pm

I guess that if the flight achieved its targeted 8% operating margin the state of Maryland would absolutely have to pay nothing whatsoever!

BWI flights also always appear to be always $40 to a $100 more expensive compared to flights from IAD in economy (excluding transfers through other US airports) Could that mean that BWI flights have no problems filling the back of the plane but some problems filling the front. This would go a long way in explaining the subsidy.

Joint marketing is something that is done very often in Europe. Maryland could and should try to do something similar. A few billboards placed at strategic places could do wonders!!! Imagine an add saying "did you know you could fly from BWI to London and beyond with the world's favorite airline??? BA and BWI here to make travel for Marylanders easier...
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4449
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
I guess that if the flight achieved its targeted 8% operating margin the state of Maryland would absolutely have to pay nothing whatsoever!

Correct.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
BWI flights also always appear to be always $40 to a $100 more expensive compared to flights from IAD in economy (excluding transfers through other US airports) Could that mean that BWI flights have no problems filling the back of the plane but some problems filling the front. This would go a long way in explaining the subsidy.

That is the reason I'm flying IAD-LHR in October. The WT+ fare was about 25% cheaper out of IAD than BWI. The fact that there is competition at IAD may also be a factor.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:51 pm

While it sort of has its logic, BWI paying BA to keep flying BWI-LHR for the next 3 years Could BWI's USD16.5 cover Southwest/Airtran 3-year expenses to lease and operate a B767-300ER/400ER flying BWI-LGW/STN-BWI daily or 6 per week?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4449
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:34 pm

^ Traffic beyond LHR helps fill the plane. You wouldn't get that with WN to LGW/STN, although a WN-level fare might fill it anyway. I have always assumed WN would eventually try Europe out of BWI; it's just a question of when they will be ready to try it.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 29):

^ Traffic beyond LHR helps fill the plane. You wouldn't get that with WN to LGW/STN, although a WN-level fare might fill it anyway. I have always assumed WN would eventually try Europe out of BWI; it's just a question of when they will be ready to try it.

BA pretty much enables BWI and Maryland to be connected to Europe's main business center, it also enables BWI to be conveniently connected to Europe, Africa, India and the middle-east. That is a pretty sizeable advantage and selling point I guess.

PIT has the same kind of agreement with Delta to CDG. AF also provides sizeable onward connections to the above mentioned regions, although I wonder if Paris as a destination for the PIT catchment area is as valuable as London is for the BWI catchment area!

This would be an interesting comparison.

On a similar note which other international routes receive such subsidies and how much do they get?

So far we have:

BWI - LHR: $5.5m a year
PIT - CDG: ??? a year
DEN - NRT: ??? a year

Any others? SLC, RDU maybe?
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 30):
PIT - CDG: ??? a year

Zero as of June 2011. During the first year, June '09 to June 2010, the Allegheny Conference on Community Development and the State of PA ponied up the entire $9 million subsidy to Delta (or was it half that, considering the $9 million was to be represent the total value of the 2 year subsidy?). I don't know how much of that DL needed for the second and final year of the subsidy. All I remember is that the flight did "significantly better" the second year versus the first year. As of now, the flight operates on a 5x weekly seasonal basis from March to October.

You ask if Paris is a good destination for PIT travelers, well kind of and yet not so much. People like the idea of bypassing the hellish connections to be made in JFK, EWR, or PHL, or even back tracking to ORD. There are those, however, who still bicker and moan for non-stop FRA service. If you ask me, I think the ACCD (Allegheny Conference on Community Development) should use this flight to target France-based companies to set-up shop in the Pittsburgh area, which would boost demand for non-stop PIT-CDG service even higher, making the route more viable for either year-round daily service or even on regular wide-body service (which would only be a huge benefit to the flying public out of PIT and work as even more of an incentive to use this particular flight).

All in all, I guess I really don't belong back out at PIT. I'm one who tends to believe in the whole "use it or lose it" saying. From reading some of the remarks on here should this subsidy from BWI to BA go away, can I assume the same goes for BWI fliers?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
AussieItaliano
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 7):
If it brings a net public benefit, e.g. tourists who spend more time and money in Maryland or businesses that remain in or relocate to Maryland partially because of the LHR flights, why shouldn't public funds be used? If the people traveling between BWI and Heathrow add more than $5.5 million annually to the Maryland economy, the subsidy in one area ends up being a profit in another. Everybody wins.

Agreed.

Remember that this flight is putting BWI in range of several one-stop key destinations in Europe and beyond. Companies based in Maryland who need access to European, Middle-Eastern and African destinations that are not served non-stop from North America but are served non-stop from LHR benefit tremendously from this flight. There's no need to make a connection in North America and another one in Europe. And it works for companies located in those EMEA cities as well who have to send someone to Maryland. That is, in addition to those customers travelling between Maryland and London.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
ChinaClipper40
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:08 am

The catchment area for BWI (the greater Baltimore area itself, Frederick, Aberdeen, Columbia, and the northern DC suburbs lying within Maryland's Montgomery County - Bethesda, Rockville) contains a huge number of world-class biomedical research personnel. This includes personnel at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine; the University of Maryland School of Medicine; the U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command at Fort Detrick; the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick; the U.S. Army Telemedicine and Advanced Technology Research Center at Fort Detrick; the U.S, Army Medical Research Institute of Chemical Defense at Aberdeen Proving Ground; the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center in Bethesda; and the research campuses of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Rockville, Frederick, Poolesville, and Baltimore. It also includes more than 100 biotech and pharmaceutical companies in BWI's catchment area. That daily British Airways BWI-LHR nonstop is extremely popular among these folks for easy one-stop connections to Europe and beyond, because of BWI's proximity and ease of use; and because it frees one from fighting the horrid traffic on the DC Beltway. Even though one usually pays a premium over similar flights originating from IAD. I rather imagine that the Maryland Department of Transportation has done an economic analysis that tells it that guaranteeing the stability of that daily British Airways flight is an economic win for Maryland. Even keeping a single biotech firm from moving away would probably justify Maryland's guarantee to British Airways for that flight. I use that flight a lot, and to my eyes the load factors are pretty good. Even up front. On some nights that 767 goes out completely full.
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:35 am

Lest we forget: World Airways had scheduled service to LGW for years, TW has LHR service for quite a while. BA served LHR with L15's and 741's from Baltimore. ( and let us nor forget B'OAC'S Harbor field or Friendship service before IAD) British has a history with Baltimore that should be maintained.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:47 am

BWI would be crazy not to pay the subsidy. They have zero flights to Europe outside of the one daily BA flight. Lose that, and they should change their name to Baltimore Washington Hemisphere Airport.

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 33):
huge number of world-class biomedical research personnel.
Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 33):
That daily British Airways BWI-LHR nonstop is extremely popular among these folks


I doubt its popular, or BA would need to add frequency. IAD is closer to Frederick (center of the biotech universe in Maryland) than BWI (IAD is an easy drive down 15 to the Greenway) with infinitely more international non stop options. Why connect through LHR when you can fly to Vienna (and Moscow, and Paris, and Lagos, and Dubai, get the point?) nonstop?

"Companies based in Maryland who need access to European, Middle-Eastern and African destinations that are not served non-stop from North America but are served non-stop from LHR"

So which of these EMEA destinations are not served? You can get pretty much anywhere in the world non stop from IAD. Dubai, Moscow, Paris, Frankfurt, Addis Ababa, etc. Take a look here (http://mwaa.com/dulles/872.htm) and find which destinations are left out. The only glaring omission would be South and Southeast Asia.

BWI can't compete with IAD, so the subsidy is the only way to go. Kudos to State of Maryland for a wise decision.

[Edited 2012-09-19 20:49:18]

[Edited 2012-09-19 20:54:48]

[Edited 2012-09-19 20:55:42]
 
AussieItaliano
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
"Companies based in Maryland who need access to European, Middle-Eastern and African destinations that are not served non-stop from North America but are served non-stop from LHR"

So which of these EMEA destinations are not served? You can get pretty much anywhere in the world non stop from IAD. Dubai, Moscow, Paris, Frankfurt, Addis Ababa, etc. Take a look here (http://mwaa.com/dulles/872.htm) and find which destinations are left out. The only glaring omission would be South and Southeast Asia.

I think that you're entirely missing my point. Any secondary city such as MRS, DTM, HAJ, AAL, ABZ, OPO, BLQ etc. would be a city that is not served non-stop from North America but is served from London. Companies are often located in these secondary cities, and having a one-stop connection via Europe is much more convenient than having a 2 stop connection via both North America and Europe.

It's the same reason why cities such as BHX, STR, EDI and HAM value their UA service to EWR. Passengers can avoid a 2 stop connection by flying straight to EWR and then connecting to cities such as IND, STL, CMH, BNA, etc. that aren't served directly from Europe.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:45 pm

It seems like this isn't the only BWI news. According to this morning's Baltimore Business Journal blog, BWI has been increasing passenger traffic over the year while IAD's passenger traffic had been dropping. The journal concludes that if this trend continues, BWI will outstrip Dulles as the Washington-area's largest airport by passenger traffic.

"BWl Airport on Track to Beat Dulles Passenger Count

Baltimore Business Journal
Date: Thursday, September 20, 2012, 7:18am EDT

Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport is on track to top Dulles International Airport for passenger count this year, after an all-time record for passengers in July.

Dulles saw 2,095,237 million passengers pass through its gates in July, down 6 percent from a year ago. BWI had 2,222,329 million passengers, up 0.8 percent. BWI's passenger count has surpassed the Northern Virginia airport in four out of seven months so far this year and has seen 13.36 million passengers through July, compared to 13.26 million at Dulles."


http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...rport-on-track-to-beat-dulles.html
 
lawair
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
They have zero flights to Europe outside of the one daily BA flight.

Well they do have seasonal scheduled flights to Frankfurt, even though those flights operated only twice a week this summer.

Your point otherwise stands though. I'm familiar with a lot of people and companies operating in Baltimore that have to use IAD for their international travel, just because the flights exist. Although there is a collective demand in Baltimore for international corporate and leisure travel, the demand for any individual route like NRT or CDG is probably insufficient to justify daily flights to these multiple cities at this time from BWI. In some sense IAD is serving as Baltimore's international gateway as much as BWI is serving as DC's low fare gateway (although even that status can come into doubt). In my mind BWI can probably handle a couple more daily transatlantic flights (and it has in the past); while Baltimoreans would love to have more convenient options at BWI, IAD is often the next best thing for getting to Asia or Europe, as much as they hate to use it.
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
I doubt its popular, or BA would need to add frequency. IAD is closer to Frederick (center of the biotech universe in Maryland) than BWI (IAD is an easy drive down 15 to the Greenway) with infinitely more international non stop options. Why connect through LHR when you can fly to Vienna (and Moscow, and Paris, and Lagos, and Dubai, get the point?) nonstop?

It's a toss honestly, and 15 isn't necessarily a nice drive. Any hickup and that is it you miss your flight! 70 in comparison is a breeze though yes maybe slightly longer!

Granted BWI does not warrant any other transatlantic flights at the moment, although pie in the sky thinking should BWI be served properly by rail through a through underground station this may well one day change...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):
There's simply no place at Reagan to put an FIS facility.

National has an FIS, just a very small one. Sort of like LGA.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):
DCA could probably fill an all business-class 318 or 319 bound for London if there were a way of doing offshore pre-clearances.

You do realize that pre-clearance is already done on BA's A318 flight at SNN, right? That is not the barrier.

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
DCA is a no go due to the perimeter rule.

Yep.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 6):
I don't like the use of public funds to support air service for non existent demand since the market cannot support itself.

See below.

Quoting lawair (Reply 10):
I definitely agree with "texan" here. The article says there is a $117 million economic impact on the airport each year from this flight. For, at most, a $5.5 million investment, that kind of economic impact sounds pretty good, and probably is a win for taxpayers.

I think this is a point that is lost on most. That subsidy is a pittance compared to the economic impact. This is a good business decision.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):There's simply no place at Reagan to put an FIS facility.
National has an FIS, just a very small one. Sort of like LGA.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):DCA could probably fill an all business-class 318 or 319 bound for London if there were a way of doing offshore pre-clearances.
You do realize that pre-clearance is already done on BA's A318 flight at SNN, right? That is not the barrier.

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):DCA is a no go due to the perimeter rule.
Yep.

Thank you for pointing out that the question was *both* asked and answered days ago.
So I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your post.

But on another note -- the thought of transAtlantics from LCY or transcons to SAN, LAX, SFO, and SEA from DCA would have been laughed at ten years ago.

Things seem to change.
 
ChinaClipper40
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:23 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
Frederick (center of the biotech universe in Maryland)

Not quite. Of the more than 100 biotech and pharmaceutical firms located within BWI's catchment area, here is the breakdown by location:
1) Rockville - 31 companies
2) Baltimore - 17 companies
3) Gathersburg - 17 companies
4) Columbia and Frederick - 8 companies each
5) Betheda - 6 companies
6) Germantown - 4 companies
7) Salisbury, Silver Spring, and Sparks - 2 companies each
8) Annapolis, Beltsville, Cockeysville, Glen Burnie, Hanover, Lexington Park, Pylesville, Savage, Walkersville - 1 company each

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
IAD is an easy drive down 15 to the Greenway

Not really. Route 15 is chancy. It is often very slow until one gets past Leesburg and onto route 267. With perfect road conditions, it takes 1 hour. Hit any kind of congestion on route 15 and it can easily be 1.5 or even 2 hours. In contrast, Interstate 70 to US 29 south to route 100 east to Interstate 95 north to Interstate 195 east is almost always a clear shot. More distance by 10 miles, but an extremely reliable 1 hour into the parking garage at BWI.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
I doubt its popular, or BA would need to add frequency.

That's silly. A route can be popular enough to support a single flight per day, but not popular enough to support more flights per day to the same destination.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
Why connect through LHR when you can fly to Vienna (and Moscow, and Paris, and Lagos, and Dubai, get the point?) nonstop?

Yes, your point is obvious. And I DO sometimes use IAD for such destinations. But every time I do, I kick myself for getting stuck in the parking lot that is laughably called the DC Beltway (it often takes a full hour to drive the 20 miles from the I95/DC Beltway interchange around to the Dulles Access Road). And then fighting the crowds within the IAD terminals (both at check-in and at security) is time-consuming and infuriating. If flying out of IAD, I routinely depart for IAD 4 hours before flight time to accommodate such uncertainties. If flying out of BWI, I can leave for the airport a mere 1 hour prior to flight time with the certain knowledge that I will make my flight. Indeed, getting to and through IAD is often such a nightmare that I will preferably connect via EWR, JFK, BOS, or DTW if heading for Europe, the Near East, or North Africa. And connect via ORD or SFO if heading for Asia. That daily BWI-LHR flight is a godsend, due to BWI's extreme user-friendliness and the speed with which one can check in, drop baggage, and get through TSA screening. As a senior medical research scientist myself, I know scores of colleagues on faculty at Johns Hopkins, University of Maryland, NIH, the various U.S. Army medical research facilities, and at many of the biotech/pharmaceutical firms within the BWI catchment area. They all feel as I do. They all travel extensively for work purposes, and eliminating that daily BWI-LHR flight would significantly dis-incentivize their remaining at their current jobs.

Quoting lawair (Reply 10):
there is a $117 million economic impact on the airport each year from this flight. For, at most, a $5.5 million investment, that kind of economic impact sounds pretty good, and probably is a win for taxpayers

Yes, my point precisely. The Maryland Department of Transportation has done an economic impact analysis that shows that guaranteeing that BWI-LHR flight is an economic win for the taxpayers of Maryland. It's a good business decision on the part of the State of Maryland. End of debate.
 
hohd
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:01 am

You leave one hour prior to flight time for international flights at BWI ??? I thought the cutoff for checkin is 60 minutes at all airports for international.
 
jetblast
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:19 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 43):

If he isn't checking bags he can go right to the gate as they are boarding the flight if he chooses. The agents there will verify his passport data as he boards.
Speedbird Concorde One
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4449
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 42):
The Maryland Department of Transportation has done an economic impact analysis that shows that guaranteeing that BWI-LHR flight is an economic win for the taxpayers of Maryland. It's a good business decision on the part of the State of Maryland. End of debate.

Assuming you believe the numbers that Annapolis generates in order to justify whatever Baltimore wants to do this week. In my experience, economic impact numbers, like government 'savings' projections, are as stretchy as cheap shoe laces.

This: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...ys-to-stay-at-bwi-subsidy/135928/1

says that Maryland actually paid BA $18.8 million for 2006-2011, averaging $3.76 million a year. Let's hope they can keep it closer to that than the $5.5 million budgeted.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 41):
SAN, LAX, SFO, and SEA from DCA would have been laughed at ten years ago.

LAX-DCA transcons operated more than 10 years ago. TWA was awarded the route in 2000 and AA was rather unhappy to realize that it wouldn't be transferred the beyond perimeter authority because of how it bought TWA's assets, instead of an actual merger. AS got the slots instead.

AS flew SEA-DCA for about a week prior to 9/11, when DCA ended up closed for months. That wasn't laughed at either.

SFO was always an outlier, though UA's major operations at IAD and SFO hindered an award of slots on that route for years.

SAN is the only one of those that is odd, but is actually logical when you consider government traffic.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
AS flew SEA-DCA for about a week prior to 9/11, when DCA ended up closed for months. That wasn't laughed at either.

Yes, I flew AS IAD-SEA at the time. No laughing -- it was a good route.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
SAN is the only one of those that is odd, but is actually logical when you consider government traffic.

  No one said it was odd. You appear to be -- for whatever reason -- editorializing.
 
AA94
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 27):
That is the reason I'm flying IAD-LHR in October. The WT+ fare was about 25% cheaper out of IAD than BWI. The fact that there is competition at IAD may also be a factor.

For sure. I've noticed the same, and I bet competition is definitely a factor. Also, I'd bet that many of the premium pax flying to Washington are going to take a 777/747 into IAD as opposed to BWI's 767.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 30):
BA pretty much enables BWI and Maryland to be connected to Europe's main business center, it also enables BWI to be conveniently connected to Europe, Africa, India and the middle-east. That is a pretty sizeable advantage and selling point I guess.

  
BWI-LHR basically connects BWI with much of the world.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 35):
I doubt its popular, or BA would need to add frequency. IAD is closer to Frederick (center of the biotech universe in Maryland) than BWI (IAD is an easy drive down 15 to the Greenway) with infinitely more international non stop options. Why connect through LHR when you can fly to Vienna (and Moscow, and Paris, and Lagos, and Dubai, get the point?) nonstop?

As ChinaClipper has noted above, the situation you describe is a best case scenario, and very iffy. The Capitol Beltway is more or less the world's biggest parking lot. Calling anything in Washington an "easy drive" is really a massive exaggeration.

Also, BWI has much more going for it in terms of ground transportation than IAD does. Not that BWI is perfect, but there is the light rail for folks heading up north to points in Baltimore, and the MARC station for anyone going south to DC. IAD really doesn't have any ground transport options other than the Washington Flyer bus to the West Falls Church Metro station for onward ground transport. Granted, that will all change after the Silver Line is completed in a few years, but that's long overdue.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
jetblast
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:19 am

RE: BWI To Pay BA $16.5 Million For LHR Flights

Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting AA94 (Reply 48):
Also, I'd bet that many of the premium pax flying to Washington are going to take a 777/747 into IAD as opposed to BWI's 767.

Side note, but if they book the middle BA flight into/out of IAD (BA265 and 264 respectively) they will be on a 767 also.
Speedbird Concorde One

Who is online