G500
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AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:17 pm

I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT.. But this is a first good step


"Troubled carrier Air France plans to refurbish its entire fleet of long-haul Boeing 777s in a bid to respond to the competitive threat, and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...compete-with-gulf-carriers-376622/
 
jfk777
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:23 pm

4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay. Since this is Europes first upgrade to "compete" with Gulf airlines I can't wait to see what French Elegance at a Gulf airline level looks like. Good luck to AF.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"Troubled carrier Air France plans to refurbish its entire fleet of long-haul Boeing 777s in a bid to respond to the competitive threat, and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines."

They're chasing after the wrong thing, but good luck.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Stitch
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:33 pm

For a start, AF can go back to the original tan and red color scheme of La Première as I am not a fan of the new grey scheme.



Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay.

AF does have a four-class configuration on some of their 777-200ERs and 777-300ERs and their new A380-800s are being delivered with four classes (with the earlier frames being retrofitted to that configuration).
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT..

  

And unless they do something about what is described above, every other attempt is a nice try but eventually pointless in my opinion.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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rotating14
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:08 pm

Don't they have a few more 300-ER's on order?? Maybe they can have those redesigned with the new layouts in mind.
 
rwsea
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:12 pm

Maybe they'll finally drop the terrible 3x4x3 layout in economy, although I doubt it given that Emirates uses the same configuration. On the other hand, maybe they could improve the legroom to be competitive with Emirates.

Business class is another matter - terrible and outdated seats (same situation on KL). Hopefully this is a focus area for both airlines.
 
azjubilee
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:21 pm

I've flown AF many times and it's clear their problems are NOT their cabins or service. Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency. Oh and I'm so happy I finally got to recently fly in a 3x4x3 cabin to see what all the hype was about. As I suspected, it's just that! I found the 3x4x3 configuration just as comfortable. The seats didn't seem any more narrow, the pitch was generous and since I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.

If AF thinks they'll see ROI with this refurbishing initiative, wonderful. But from the customer perspective, IMO, it's a waste of money.

[Edited 2012-09-18 11:25:49]
 
kl911
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 4):
And unless they do something about what is described above, every other attempt is a nice try but eventually pointless in my opinion.

We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
 
lucky777
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.

Such a short-sighted comment to make with nothing to back up the claim that unions-at-large "damage companies and travellers"...care to put some meat on that hollow statement next time?
 
G500
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.

The Lufthansa flight attendant strike cost the company several million dollars.... The Gulf carriers don't have to worry about something like that. HUGE advantage
 
falkerker
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.

Totally agree, unions should be restricted when they damage the company. Theoretically, unions serve to protect the workers from their patron in a David v. Goliath kind of struggle. However, reality shows unions would rather take a company down into bankruptcy than give into some benefits (and this is not only for airlines). Not trying to get into a union vs patron discussion here (since I think unions tend to bite the hand that feeds but patrons also tend to exploit their workers), but why won´t they see that if the company as a whole gets better, their own conditions will start to improve but only keep on trying to get major benefits and drive the company down...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
The Lufthansa flight attendant strike cost the company several million dollars.... The Gulf carriers don't have to worry about something like that. HUGE advantage

What does the union leadership say about this?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
roseflyer
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:46 pm

AF has multiple problems, but its hard product is one of them. In my opinion AF and LH made a mistake by launching the A380 with angled flat seats. The newest generation of business class seats can be fully flat and fit the same number of seats as a traditional 60'' pitch 2x2x2 cabin. They have to get creative with use of space and sometimes have drawbacks of being slightly narrower or not forward facing, but the market is voting that passengers like herringbone, thompson, reverse direction, etc seats if they go flat.

Asian and Middle Eastern carriers have brought better hard products, and the US airlines are following. Delta is going to 100% flat business class. United is almost there. American is a disaster, but has committed to upgrading to flat business. BA has been there for a decade, but Lufthansa is finally starting to go flat. AF is falling behind.

Air France is being outmatched on virtually every route they fly. All their competitors have upped the hard product in business class. AF also doesn't have a particularly stunning F product either. Personally I don't think they should spend their money on Y because anything to keep price down is good in Y and AF already has the industry essential of PTVs.

However they also need to improve the entire company. Better maintenance, better schedule reliability, better airport infrastructure, appropriate staffing levels, cabin cleanliness, etc are all factors that matter. You can have the best hard product but that won't make you money. Just look at Air India's beautiful cabins yet it is still a disaster financially.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
falkerker
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 15):
In my opinion AF and LH made a mistake by launching the A380 with angled flat seats.

Doesn't KE also have angled flat seats on the A388 on J as well? I think AF is getting behind on hard product, but improving it won´t make them able to compete with gulf and asian carriers. Their problems are far from being "just" a hard product issue.
 
CALMSP
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

although I agree, and do not support unions in any fashion, its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 17):
its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.

   Flat beds aren't going to fix this.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Stitch
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting falkerker (Reply 16):
Doesn't KE also have angled flat seats on the A388 on J as well?

The seats in Prestige Class on the A380-800 are lie-flat.

[Edited 2012-09-18 13:23:56 by srbmod]
 
airproxx
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):

However they also need to improve the entire company. Better maintenance, better schedule reliability, better airport infrastructure, appropriate staffing levels, cabin cleanliness, etc are all factors that matter. You can have the best hard product but that won't make you money. Just look at Air India's beautiful cabins yet it is still a disaster financially.

For an AF employee it's always interesting (hard sometimes) to read what type of complaints customers make about the product. Even though it doesn't make me really happy as you may imagine, I must admit that every thing you pointed out in your post is correct, sadly.

Just a small correction, CDG and ORY airports infrastructure are designed and managed by ADP (state owned), a different (and monopoly) company than AF. Unfortunately, AF cannot really put the pressure on ADP to get an airport 100% designed to match their needs...

What for you, and other people reading this thread obviously, is the biggest point to improve about Air France?

(and please don't say "France"   )
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
LondonCity
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):
Business class is another matter - terrible and outdated seats (same situation on KL). Hopefully this is a focus area for both airlines.

But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats. So it meant AF had to follow otherwise passengers would question why one partner had the better product.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay. Since this is Europes first upgrade to "compete" with Gulf airlines I can't wait to see what French Elegance at a Gulf airline level looks like. Good luck to AF.

We might not be the most pro-European nation, but last time I checked the UK was in Europe! BA introduced a four class layout a few years back now, and I would say can compete with the Gulf carriers on service. The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.

Interesting move by AF, and it will be interesting to see what its aircraft look like after. I suspect 3-4-3 will stay in the 777s, but perhaps with a bit better seat pitch.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:30 pm

I like some dismiss the Euro-carrier issues without going into why some customers prefer the mid-East airlines. IMHO, the #1 item AF must fix is the perceived treatment of non-European decent passengers.

It isn't just the seats, but those could change. Customers want the IFE, drinks, and portions served with a smile. It is also due to EK being a 'numbers run company' a la Starbucks. Read their annual reports. EK is constantly trying to cut costs. EK monitors their sales and cut flights earlier than most airlines during the 'Arab spring.' Now they are returning. Numbers run... Not by tradition or even their own culture.

As already noted, AF must pressure the airports to provide a better connecting experience. No excuses. It must be improved. Since France is in 'financial pressure,' I'm sure the government could help AF fix the issue.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 18):
What for you, and other people reading this thread obviously, is the biggest point to improve about Air France?
Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines.

IMHO the service on AF is fine for French speakers. What needs to be improved is service to Asian (including Indian) customers. While some are 'difficult,' they are the customer. Somehow LH and EK do a better job of bringing them in.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):
Maybe they'll finally drop the terrible 3x4x3 layout in economy

   Cost is a major AF issue. Crew costs are part of it. Part of it is delivering what customers want to pay for and no more (at least no more that has an expense).

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7):
Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency.

   It is also customer perception. AF must become a 'numbers run company' to compete.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7):
I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.

You and I are different... I walk around. However, I'm not willing to pay for a wider isle, so no complaints here.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned

Would you really want to live in a world were unions were forbidden? Not I. Oh, I'm FAR from pro-union; in many cases they do some stupid self-destructive negotiations (see AA pilots the last few days). But I support their rights to form a union and strike. I just want a right to dissolve a union too... but that is a different topic.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 19):
But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats.

Now is AF being wise and going with thinner lie flat seats a la EK/LH (well, LH is close to lie flat...)? AF is competing in markets where the cost of J is an issue. They must stay competitive with comfort while increasing the seating density. That means flat seats, but many in a row. The reality is that CDG is not the top premium O&D market; thus they must compete with 'more discounted business class.'

I'm glad to see AF is changing. Will they change enough?


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AirAfreak
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 18):

Bonjour airproxx!!!!

I might be on of the few who doesn't find much flaw with AF.

My only complaint is to change the rules and benefits of Flying Blue back to the days of Frequence Plus. In the years past, I was flying much with AF before alliances arrived so I was usually Frequence Plus Bleu/Rouge flying mainly between IAD, JFK, EWR, LAX, LHR, MUC, NTE, CFR to Paris. And now, I am Medallion at DL. I am discovering more and more flights with DL as I feel my loyalty is appreciated. I value loyalty more over free champagne. I don't care if I have to purchase a flute of champagne onboard - really, I do not. In 2012, a glass can cost you USD15+ for example in most restaurants here in Los Angeles. So, buy on board is not an issue for me, it's simply the value of Frequent Flyer Programs.

At the end of the day, I'm not looking for freebies as I am not your typical self-entitled American. In fact, I apologize to gate agents and ticket agents on their behalf because it's so embarrassing by association. I feel terrible for the Ground Staff, btw. It just sucks to have earning schemes and benefits taken away or reduced over the years. (Since 1992). I would also like to mention I have never supported and have never stepped onboard any low-cost carrier. I refuse. I know what they've done to you at AF and to other carriers. In my opinion, I feel the people that really complain on these forums, are the ones that fly (support) Ryanair, Jetblue, Tiger, JetStar, etc.

On the positive side, I love CDG (the architecture, especially), the Christian Lacroix Uniforms are stunning, the planes are decorated so simple, yet elegant, catering is perfection, wine list is delicious, Clarins products (from the toiletries kit) does wonders for my skin (and now only use Clarins even at home), and the French Service is wonderfully unique. Oh, and I'm a sucker for foie gras!!!!!!!! Yum-O!!!!!!

Just change the Flying Blue back to the days of Frequence Plus, and I will be happier. I'm just asking for something back that was taken away from me. I don't want anything for free, I just want fairness.

When you've had First Class, it's hard to take Economy. =]

And then change the "Making The Sky The Best Place on Earth" back to "Winning the Hearts of the World." Those were really the good old days, weren't they?

I wish you much prosperity and happiness with Air France. I will always love AF forever in my heart.

Until then...

Bon Voyage!

Air Afreak =] =] =]

[Edited 2012-09-18 14:53:10]
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mercure1
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:44 pm

Yes good to see AF seek to update product.

Even with recent year changes the product is lacking. And not just in the air, but AF needs to improve on the ground. Whether is more hotel concierge style check-in for premium cleintele, to improved lounges and to offer things like free chauffaur car at destinations.

Funny part is AF has for many years complained about the likes to EK and the danger they create in the market for it, but sadly AF has not done much except watch complain.

In the mean time all these airlines from the Gulf and Asia have continued to improve product and and market them very effectively.
I have collogues in France that besides some intra-Europe travel have not been on an AF flight for years. Each time they travel for business or pleasure they have a wide variety of world class products to choose from at some very good prices.

Oh and I hope there is some product alignment with KLM also. In the past I have been very disappointed with KL, and its a bizarre situation when AF sales office tries to sell you single global service but KL and AF have different products.
 
airproxx
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
As already noted, AF must pressure the airports to provide a better connecting experience. No excuses. It must be improved. Since France is in 'financial pressure,' I'm sure the government could help AF fix the issue.

I do share your opinion. I blame everyday the poor CDG and ORY organization, and service to customers. CDG is just a giant mess. I wish AF could put some pressure on anybody that could help bringing CDG and ORY to the level of DXB or similar. But we're in France, paradox country, and close relationships between govt officials, and company such as ADP CEOs make things go .. slow.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
IMHO the service on AF is fine for French speakers. What needs to be improved is service to Asian (including Indian) customers. While some are 'difficult,' they are the customer. Somehow LH and EK do a better job of bringing them in.

Well, to be honest, service to french customers is not always as fine as it seems too! It's been said already that AF F/A are not always handful, nice, smiley, even not always polite. People inside the airline don't want to face the truth, but I think AF service is perceived badly by customers, mainly because of doubtful behavior by F/A. Even ground staff can be rude. Again, I do share your vision. What can you say about AF staff in general?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
It is also customer perception. AF must become a 'numbers run company' to compete.

AF is in a bad financial shape, but investments are made to try to upgrade the level of service. I think aircraft cabins refurbishment is a nice move, but I agree, won't be enough though.
Efforts are made by AF employees (at least flying staff) to stick with the level of competition set by LH or BA (I don't even talk about EK which seems out of reach for the time). But I think there's a service culture we have to get in France, and at AF to reach the top again. We can put all the best in a cabin layout, if passengers have a bad experience because of a horrible F/A, it will be a failure. We know that pax are gained with a lot of efforts, and lost due to small details...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
airproxx
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 22):

I Air Afreak!

First, thank you very much for taking your time to share what you feel goes wrong with my airline.

You're not the only one complaining about changes in Frequence Plus / Flying Blue programs. My feel is that we lose a lot of frequent and long time customers due to this poor decision.
This point has even been discussed many many times with the airline direction, but unfortunately nothing has changed until today.

Loyalty is still something much appreciated by AF, but strangely, the airline strategy has been to reduce a lot of benefits, even those accumulated during years by a lot of customers. This has been a really bad move IMO. This even got worse when it became part of the policy of cutting costs of any sorts, to preserve cash flow, 2 or 3 years ago.

Honestly, seeing AF investing in new cabins, makes me feel that my airline is starting to, simply turn again towards customers, instead of trying to fix internal endless issues.
So I do hope that in a few times, we'll se a frequent flyer program evolution, leading to a better rewarded loyalty for our frequent customers.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 22):
I wish you much prosperity and happiness with Air France. I will always love AF forever in my heart.

Until then...

Bon Voyage!

Thank you very much for your words, I do appreciate that.
I hope we'll know how to make the efforts required to have people like you flying with us again and for a long time!
On a side note, I'm a great fan of USA in general, and California in particular, a very special place for me  
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 22):
Oh, and I'm a sucker for foie gras!!!!!!!! Yum-O!!!!!!

I hope you won't get any trouble writing these lines with CA authorities, they seem to be rough with foie-gras lovers
 


Cheers, and thanks again!

Dave
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 24):
What can you say about AF staff in general?

In general an excellent post. I haven't flow AF in... forever. So I go off banter at parties.

In general, the experience of J class passengers who speak some French has been excellent feedback. But all of those individuals are blonde or light brown hair with pale skin. I think that unfortunately makes a difference.

My Indian friends who have flown J on AF have *not* been happy with the experience. In general they have gone over to LH or EK.

Look, I'm in Los Angeles. Not exactly a top AF market.   Well, except for PPT-LAX-CDG.    I just noticed where the people I know are happy and where they are not.

In general, since people are flying AF to either PPT or CDG from here... there experience is good for those who look 'of European decent' and passengers to PPT have been happy (of all decent). Connecting through CDG doesn't make people happy unless they stay in Paris for 3+ days.

Funny... I never hear about 'dirty planes.'   Then again, these people do not talk the hard product (seats) either... They are just not that interested.

Note: My sample flying AF is older. Those that are 'critical of the IFE experience' haven't been flying them. So I have no input there. I also have relatively little input for Y passengers to CDG. For whatever reasons, everyone I know who goes to Europe 'in the back of the plane' flies other airlines. That could just be a cost issue...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
airproxx
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
In general an excellent post. I haven't flow AF in... forever. So I go off banter at parties.

Haha, no problem, I though you were a frequent AF customer, but anyway, experience about AF product is good to hear, whatever it comes from you or a friend...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
My Indian friends who have flown J on AF have *not* been happy with the experience. In general they have gone over to LH or EK.

And do you know why? I've heard that before indeed. But I'm not sure to clearly understand what Indian customers have to blame AF for....
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
Viscount724
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7):
I found the 3x4x3 configuration just as comfortable. The seats didn't seem any more narrow, the pitch was generous and since I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.

The seats are narrower, as are the armrests and the gap between the seats. You can't generate enough space to squeeze in one more seat by just reducing the aisle width. Get off a 10-abreast 777 and board a 9-abreast 777 and you will notice the difference.
 
AirAfreak
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 25):

Hello and Bonjour again airproxx! =]

First, thank you for your response! Your message validates how I've always felt, that the people at AF really do care!!! So, again thank you!!! Or, rather, mille merci a vous!!!!!

If you want, you are more than welcome to forward my message to the appropriate department at AF. I've given up on the facebook/twitter/customer care channels because I am only one voice. However, today, I feel my voice has been heard, and for this I will always defend AF concerning customer contact staff (Flight Attendants, Ground Staff, Reservations Agents, etc.) Really, thank you!

Side note (I am of Asian/Mixed Race descent) - I never have felt any discrimination. I speak some French because I've been educated and raised by wonderful parents to always respect and be a proper guest when entering foreign lands and their respective properties (e.g. Inside Air France aircraft and when flying into and through CDG, you should always take effort to learn, speak, and practice French with proper accent.) I am a guest in your country, France, so I prefer to not make myself of a nuisance or inconvenience.

You have never lost me as a customer. Throughout the two decades of flying with AF, I have thoroughly enjoyed my experience. Thanks to DL Skymiles and Skyteam, I prefer AF and will continue to fly with you when the option is there.

Moreover, I only fly for pleasure - usually up to and sometimes a little beyond 50,000 miles per year on my own dime. It should tell you AF is worth every dime, every euro, every yen, whatever I have. Yes, it would be nice to travel on the expense of others, but air travel makes me enjoy and appreciate the wonderful service DL and AF offer.

This was such wonderful news when I heard of the revamp today, however, I am a simple guy and would be happy with the L'espace 127 seat. I LOVE THAT SEAT!!!! It's like when you fall in love with someone and you miss that person if only a week, a day, or a moment is spent without them. =]

Thank you for your kind words and when future travel plans take you to LAX, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll be happy to extend our California Hospitality to you with a welcome drink - champagne, maybe? Or a delicious Chardonnay I recently discovered here that is amazing! And I usually detest chardonnay!

And everybody knows us Angelenos are the best to party with!!!!! lol!!!!!! (I wonder if I'll get flamed for this on this forum!!!!!) hahahahaha!

I love foie gras and have some delicious confections I bring back from time-to-time from Paris. Oh, and I love Fauchon!!!!! OMG! You are so lucky! But I do shop at a place here in Los Angeles that carries Fauchon products!!!! So, it's a start!

Je vous souhaitez un tres bonne journee!!!!! (I hope my spelling is correct)

A bientot,

Air Afreak =]
Do you lead an Intercontinental life?
 
AF185
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:58 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:06 am

I think cabin refurbishment is a very wise move from AF, many people around me are praising the "emerging" airlines' hard products (GA, TK, 9W, JJ and the likes).
Indeed hard product does not make a top notch airline by itself, but AF can count on numerous other qualities: Catering, Personalized/"human" service (versus often too standardized / automated Asian service), network..

The CDG hub has also greatly improved in the last year with the 2E/2F and now S4 satelitte, as well as the IFE with the introduction of the Panasonic and Thales IFE (A380)

In terms of staff performance, it is true AF is suffering a lack of consistency from a flight to another. I have experienced great service and behaviours on many flights, but also unprofessional attitude on others. It is unfortunatly the case in many Western Airlines, and is a reflection of the current society where more people are careless and less professional/respectful towards customers (you can also experience that in many department stores in Europe where shop keepers would talk about their personnal matters instead of providing assistance to you..).
However, I find AF's J/F service usually very good, and elegant.

As for the Flying Blue program, it is true it takes a while before accumulating enough miles to book a reward flight (especially compared to CX). But the new policy which automatically transfer your level miles (above your current status) to the next year is also a good move

Good luck to AF, and I can't wait to see their new cabins

[Edited 2012-09-18 20:09:49]
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4049
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:31 am

Are they also going to revamp the cabin crew that come with the 777's  ?

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:08 am

I hate to say this but a lot of it is going to come down to costs.

I welcome move, as obviously cabin hard ware is a major competitive factor (see the likes of
AR who aren't even close to the competition and look at the fares charged) but the reality is
this.

EK and friends, have CASM something like 30% below that of LH/AF etc. Where BA will always have
the corporate HQ types wanting direct flights from LHR, AF and LH must have a greater degree of connecting
PAX for their model to work. So that means EK is largely competitive in terms of travel time. So of course they
then have price competitiveness. At whatever level AF charge, EK can charge the same and spend significantly
more pampering their customers. Of course, loyalty comes into it but so does price... and 30% lower costs in an industry only known for about a 5% profit margin gives EK too much room to play with. I think its good that they are trying, but I fear the business model of EK will be too strong for them to largely succeed. Best of luck to them anyway.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:12 am

Viscount - I've only been on 9 abreast 777s and didn't notice an appreciable difference in comfort when I flew a 10 abreast 777 (AF) for the first time. I really think it's much ado about nothing.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 33):

Viscount - I've only been on 9 abreast 777s and didn't notice an appreciable difference in comfort when I flew a 10 abreast 777 (AF) for the first time. I really think it's much ado about nothing

I'd have to agree. The seat is 17 Inches wide, which is the same as found on a 737, and earlier in the 707 before it which was used on long haul flights. it's probably only a problem when you have 3 guys seated beside each other that all have particularly wide shoulders.
 
icarus75
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting airproxx (Reply 24):
Well, to be honest, service to french customers is not always as fine as it seems too! It's been said already that AF F/A are not always handful, nice, smiley, even not always polite. People inside the airline don't want to face the truth, but I think AF service is perceived badly by customers, mainly because of doubtful behavior by F/A. Even ground staff can be rude. Again, I do share your vision. What can you say about AF staff in general?

I fly AF in Europe (I know, it is not long haul) a least twice a week and the flight staff is always really, really fine!
FA smile all the time, they are very polite and very helpful with passengers.
I have the chance to fly in Eco Premium but I see how Economy people are treated : always fine.

Another nice thing with AF I did not notice on AZ or LH : no mater the destination you're going to or flying from, in 95% of he case, all he announcements are made in French, English and the country language (recorded voice)
Flying is amazing!
 
Oykie
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RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT.. But this is a first good step

   and of course that neither Europe nor US invest enough in infrastructure to keep up with demand.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4549
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):

How do you ban organization? maybe they should ban free speech too.  
Quoting g500 (Reply 10):

And its 100% on the union then? The company has nothing to do with it? they were willing to have constant talks, give the union a fair price(for whatever they were asking for) and did everything possible to prevent the strike? hmmmm Sorry. I am going to call horse poo.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 11):

Totally agree, unions should be restricted when they damage the company. Theoretically, unions serve to protect the workers from their patron in a David v. Goliath kind of struggle. However, reality shows unions would rather take a company down into bankruptcy than give into some benefits (and this is not only for airlines). Not trying to get into a union vs patron discussion here (since I think unions tend to bite the hand that feeds but patrons also tend to exploit their workers), but why won´t they see that if the company as a whole gets better, their own conditions will start to improve but only keep on trying to get major benefits and drive the company down...

.......Why can't management work with employees to improve the company?

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15):

although I agree, and do not support unions in any fashion, its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.

This. Unions aren't the problem, its the general endless bank accounts of some of the carriers in the ME.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:27 am

I wish people were more informed about their economic decisions and the ramifications thereof. In such a world, people like kl911 could fly their Ryanairs and Emirates and work under the same delightful conditions those employees are put through, whilst the rest of us with higher expectations of themselves pay the extra dime to honor the lifestyle AF, LH, BA etc. are providing their employees with.

Personally, I have a weird love for France. French people are usually über nice to me, even though I hardly speak any French. CDG is a mess, but I can live with that. There are enough gorgeous girls around to keep any transit interesting and the navigating through the maze keeps you entertained. As for the onboard product.. their Europe fleet could do with monitors and moving maps. The longhaul fleet is fine, you've just got to know what you're buying.

But this is where, at least from an economy class passenger point of view, the problem lies. I will pay extra to fly an AF A388 or the 744 upper deck. But that price flexibility isn't infinite; if a LH A388 is cheaper than the AF one, I'll go with that. If a SN A333 is even cheaper, then that's where I'll go. If a LH A343 is even slightly cheaper than AF on the same airplane, then I'll fly German. And I refuse to fly on any 10-abreast 777.

My point being, AF doesn't do much to the average traveller to stand out. At least not in a positive way; many people I know find CDG annoying and AF staff extremely rude. EK, QR on the other hand will provide you with generous food, an outstanding IFE and cheap fares. It also helps their cause to hire people from 3rd world countries and threaten to send them back after 3 complaints about their conduct towards passengers.

And maybe this is all because AF is too much of a number-run company, than suggested above. AF doesn't seem to understand that they are competing for the customer's favor, and their money, but somehow take it for granted. AF seems to look at the numbers too much and seems to forget that their customers are humans. Yes, you can raise revenue by squeezing more seats into your planes, you can cut costs by cutting services - in theory. In reality, that's at least what I believe, however, this will only drive people away and what worked out nicely on paper will backfire in reality.

AF should take more pride in their product and work really hard on their corporate identity. Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second. If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5823
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
We might not be the most pro-European nation, but last time I checked the UK was in Europe! BA introduced a four class layout a few years back now, and I would say can compete with the Gulf carriers on service. The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.

BA has always been more innovative then Air France since BA has Virign on its back. BA also tensformed around the time of its privatizations. Lord King and Colin Marshall were ahead of their time in European aviation.
 
carl50mq
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:03 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 35):
I fly AF in Europe (I know, it is not long haul) a least twice a week and the flight staff is always really, really fine!
FA smile all the time, they are very polite and very helpful with passengers.
I have the chance to fly in Eco Premium but I see how Economy people are treated : always fine.

Another nice thing with AF I did not notice on AZ or LH : no mater the destination you're going to or flying from, in 95% of he case, all he announcements are made in French, English and the country language (recorded voice)

Except for PAR/FDF, PAR/PTP and PAR/RUN, I agree with you.
The worst AF performances are on these destinations (COI)!
 
airproxx
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 29):

Hello again AirAfreak!

Thanks a lot for your posting and kind words!
We definitely need more customers like you.
My interest is to get people and AF customers their feel about what's right and what's going wrong with Air France.
During decades, we've been facing many political/cultural influences that shaped in a bad or a good way, the airline we know today.
But your remarks and enthusiasm about Air France make me feel like trying to improve and offer the best service we can to our customer is and always be worth the effort anyway.
I've been flying for a small executive airline in France before joining AF, and in my young days of an airline employee, I learned what it was to deal with demanding customers. My personal critical point is that we must turn more towards passengers and customers, than losing time in trying cutting cost by any means.

As a simple employee, I'll do my best to get your message sent to the proper AF service, and I'll try to get it the attention it deserves, because I believe your points, as all those I've been reading in this forum are much more important than any basic customer review the airline can order right now.
I'll try to make your post as influential as possible for my airline.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 29):
Thank you for your kind words and when future travel plans take you to LAX, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll be happy to extend our California Hospitality to you with a welcome drink - champagne, maybe?

With great pleasure! I'm always glad to make new connections out there, California is a wonderful place. I wish I could spend my old days there  
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 29):
Je vous souhaitez un tres bonne journee!!!!! (I hope my spelling is correct)

Your spell is almost perfect! It's always great to ear from people loving french language!

Je vous souhaite une excellente journée à vous aussi!
Thanks a lot again for your time and post!

See you in LA I hope,

David
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
airproxx
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting something (Reply 38):
And maybe this is all because AF is too much of a number-run company, than suggested above. AF doesn't seem to understand that they are competing for the customer's favor, and their money, but somehow take it for granted. AF seems to look at the numbers too much and seems to forget that their customers are humans. Yes, you can raise revenue by squeezing more seats into your planes, you can cut costs by cutting services - in theory. In reality, that's at least what I believe, however, this will only drive people away and what worked out nicely on paper will backfire in reality.

   Cannot agree more with this part. My opinion is that we've been on a pure financial logic, seeking for cost-cutting in any way. This policy is a very short termed response to what causes so much damages to AF. And inappropriate. While AF does that, the response of EK or SQ, or even LH and BA is; more attention to customers, more efficiency, more quality of service, etc.
I totally understand passengers turning their back to AF in favor of another carrier.
That said, my opinion is also that AF was literally bleeding money some months ago.
And the first priority was to preserve cash, to try to stop the dramatic loss. I must admit that this mission is almost a success. But now AF must invest for customers. I think that the seats revamping are a first response. Internet will also be available in a short while on long haul aircrafts... There's a move in the right direction I think.

Quoting something (Reply 38):
AF should take more pride in their product and work really hard on their corporate identity. Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second. If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..

Agreed. And I hope AF direction will lead towards a better quality product. Old legacy airlines cannot compete otherwise in my opinion. Against low cost carriers and other competitors, the best response we can give is, more quality.
Now think the message has been received by AF CEO, I hope that AF staff will follow in that way, because the best product in the world will be nothing without a good and wilful staff...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
sq_ek_freak
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 4:48 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
They're chasing after the wrong thing, but good luck.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay.

Except BA was one of the pioneers of this concept! And AF is already operating as a 4 class airline.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7):
I've flown AF many times and it's clear their problems are NOT their cabins or service. Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency.

Exactly they are at a distinct competitive disadvantage which a cost base that is so much higher than Emirates, Qatar and even Cathay and Singapore. There are some things AF can do to legitimately bring their cost base down, especially vis a vis their European counterparts, but most of it is unfortunately chalked down to completely different operating environments of their home bases, especially when you consider EK, QR and to a lesser extent SQ.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
Asian and Middle Eastern carriers have brought better hard products, and the US airlines are following. Delta is going to 100% flat business class. United is almost there. American is a disaster, but has committed to upgrading to flat business. BA has been there for a decade, but Lufthansa is finally starting to go flat. AF is falling behind.

This was rather appalling to me - especially because I believe J pitch on AF is below industry standards at this point. If they want to remain competitive as one of the big players in Europe, this MUST happen. The A380 would have been the prime opportunity to make this transition but alas better late than never I suppose.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 14):
Doesn't KE also have angled flat seats on the A388 on J as well? I

I believe its the same J seat as the rest of their long haul fleet but just fully flat, kind of like what Qantas did with their Biz Class seats.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 19):

But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats. So it meant AF had to follow otherwise passengers would question why one partner had the better product.

I wasn't aware of this - perhaps there will be some streamlining of products between the two?

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20):
The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.

Ah but BA is BA - they have a lot of other things going for them - very strong O&D demand, a very strong brand and national identity and are based at one of the highest yielding airports in the world.
Keep Discovering
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting something (Reply 38):
If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43):
they are at a distinct competitive disadvantage which a cost base that is so much higher than Emirates, Qatar and even Cathay and Singapore.

I agree with both of you equally and neither of you at the same time!

Something, you are absolutely right. This was something that Qantas realised about 5 years ago, which resulted in the upgraded product in F, J and Y on the A380 and the retrofitting of the A380 product on the 747 fleet. Further, QF's Y catering and wine list is now truly world class. These upgrades are possibly the only "good" thing QFI have done in the past decade. Anecdotally, they have helped somewhat slow the stream of people leaving in droves for the Gulf carriers.

However, as has been dramatically played out over the 12 months through grounding the airline, taking a knife to LHR, and ultimately retreating to DXB, these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43):
Ah but BA is BA - they have a lot of other things going for them - very strong O&D demand, a very strong brand and national identity and are based at one of the highest yielding airports in the world.

Absolutely. BA is similar to CX in that they have a strong brand in one of the highest yielding O&D markets in the world. All of their connecting traffic could dry up, and it probably wouldn't kill either of them. Yes they would downsize, but not die.

You couldn't say the same for EK or even SQ
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15215
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
This was something that Qantas realised about 5 years ago, which resulted in the upgraded product in F, J and Y on the A380 and the retrofitting of the A380 product on the 747 fleet. Further, QF's Y catering and wine list is now truly world class. These upgrades are possibly the only "good" thing QFI have done in the past decade.

And how did that work out for them?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.

I think if anyone needs proof that the problem is not product, we need look no further.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43):
This was rather appalling to me - especially because I believe J pitch on AF is below industry standards at this point.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
Now is AF being wise and going with thinner lie flat seats a la EK/LH

EK doesn't have lie flat in J except on the 380, and those seats are some of the narrowest seats in the sky. Kudos to EK for convincing everyone their J is much better (and flatter ) than it really is though  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
Quoting lucky777 (Reply 9):
Such a short-sighted comment to make with nothing to back up the claim that unions-at-large "damage companies and travellers"...care to put some meat on that hollow statement next time?

As for damaging travelers, I imagine there are plenty of AA passengers willing to provide you that "meat" this week. Do you you disagree?

Unions have (at large), and do damage companies. Eastern comes to mind. That being said, Southwest shows how management and unions can work collaboratively. I'm not anti-union, in fact, have been a union steward. Banning unions is not realistic. Union expectations, in many cases, have become habitually unrealistic, and are a problem.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15):
Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.

Until that is addressed, all of the world's airlines are at a disadvantage when competing with the gulf carriers.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
However, as has been dramatically played out over the 12 months through grounding the airline, taking a knife to LHR, and ultimately retreating to DXB, these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.

Luckily the situations of QF and AF are vastly different. QF went head to head with EK on the kangaroo, or falcon route. AF has at least the advantage of being non-stop to many markets EK tries to go after. Then there are all the markets that airlines from fantasy nations are no competition in - basically everything west of France, Northern Asia und parts of Africa.

AF doesn't need to find a new balance in offering a good product, at a competitive price, to compete with the gulf airlines and get market share back. This is never going to work. The positions of EK and QR are just so vastly more advantageous that ''resistence is futile''. This money would be better spent lobbying the French gov't to impose special taxes on EK or something to that effect.

No, what AF needs to do is recognize its strengths and focus on them. On markets to North America they just need to be cheaper and better than the some European and the US airlines. That's doable. Flights to Africa have zero, or the occasional SN A330 as competition. That can be out-shone. South America really has only LATAM, Iberia and TAP against them. Neither of which, especially the two European airlines, excel at anything. Chinese airlines are also not that hard to out-do and Japan seems to be a really strong market for AF as it is.

If I were AF, I'd focus on these markets and would frankly neglect South East Asia. For Oceania traffic, I'd work something out with KE and Virgin for domestic connections. My efforts in chasing those passengers would be of moderate length. It's a lost cause and money can also be earned elsewhere.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15215
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 46):
That being said, Southwest shows how management and unions can work collaboratively.

WN has been able to pay them off for years. Legacies have not been able to do that. Let's see what happens when WN no longer can pay labor to keep calm and carry on.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jfk777
Posts: 5823
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: AF To Revamp 777s To Compete With Gulf Carriers

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43):
Except BA was one of the pioneers of this concept! And AF is already operating as a 4 class airline

AF is new to the Premuim economy game( its A380 were NOT deilvered with Y+), BA has had it for about 10 years. Its been speculated BA only has Y + because Virgin Atlantic has had it for 20 years, "Mid-Class became PE".

The world seems to being going Y+ crazy, JAL now has it and Cathay is new to it too. LOT Polish airlines even has it on their new 787-8.