AustrianZRH
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Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:36 pm

A usually well-informed source in the Austrian Aviation Net forum reported that OS is to restart VIE-ORD using a Boeing 767-300ER starting May 2nd, 2013. The destination should be bookable by Sept 26th, 2012.

http://austrianaviation.net/phpBB3/v...c.php?f=41&t=6505&p=190023#p190023
German forum post.

Maybe this time it lasts............
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:56 pm

I think it will work just fine this time around. One of Austrian's main markets are the Balkans whose citizens can travel much easier to the US at this point.
I know LOT made a lot of money by attracting Serbs to fly with them to Chicago.

Does anyone know where the aircraft will come from?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:57 pm

Fingers crossed:

However, OS doesn't strike me as a very strong/stable airline, which leads me to speculation on this one...
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:06 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):

Well they are owned by Lufthansa, that is enough reassurance for me.  
 
lhcvg
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:25 pm

It may help that OS is now technically "VO d/b/a OS" - perhaps the lower cost structure makes this work where the old legacy OS cost structure a couple years ago when they cancelled it wasn't doable. Just a thought.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
Well they are owned by Lufthansa, that is enough reassurance for me.  

Umm. Have you been not reading the news lately? Luthansa's outlook is far from positive.

The strike activity reportedly cost the airline EUR100 million in lost revenue. Over 1,737 cancelled services that affected upwards of 180,000 people last week.

Meanwhile, OS has restructured (somewhat) but the carrier doesn't expect to be profitable before 2013. They should probably achieve that step before re-venturing on costly long-haul routes that have been tried before.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
jcwr56
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:33 pm

There was an article not too long ago with the OS president stating ORD was one to be restarted with two other U.S cities for S13.

A 767 would work, anything larger and there would be gating issues. The last time OS operated ORD, they were forced downsize equipment in order to operate at the times they wanted and were gated on M20 and M21.

If this is true, then we should be seeing a press release sooner than later.
 
JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 5):

Yes but the market between the Balkans and Chicago is huge and it got even bigger now that the US government eased the visa requirements. This was not the case the last time they operated this flight.

As mentioned above Austrian had taken some steps to restructure so I guess we should wait and see what happens.
 
LOWS
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:47 pm

Great news for me, but where the aircraft are coming from is the question.

If I recall correctly, they only have one spare plane in the longhaul fleet. So, are they going to cancel somewhere else or will they acquire some 763s or 772s?
 
sweair
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:52 pm

Will they go for the 788 in the future? A good 763 replacement. Or maybe a 789 cold replace both 763and the 772?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
Yes but the market between the Balkans and Chicago is huge and it got even bigger now that the US government eased the visa requirements. This was not the case the last time they operated this flight.

Just because it is huge does not mean it is high-yielding.

The other question that OS has to answer is where their value proposition lies. As is, ORD is VERY well connected to the Balkans through existing services on Star Alliance partners via hubs at FRA, MUC, DUS, ZRH, WAW, CPH, ARN etc. etc. What can the market support beyond these existing services, and is there room for OS?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
aznmadsci
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):
There was an article not too long ago with the OS president stating ORD was one to be restarted with two other U.S cities for S13.

Let the speculations begin! I say SFO and IAH    While SFO has a higher probability, what other airport would OS be eyeing? MIA?
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sweair
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:00 pm

I see one big advantage with Vienna, its not an over crowded mega hub, if I can I try to avoid the big hubs, I just don't like the chaos at FRA or CDG,LHR..
 
lhcvg
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
The other question that OS has to answer is where their value proposition lies. As is, ORD is VERY well connected to the Balkans through existing services on Star Alliance partners via hubs at FRA, MUC, DUS, ZRH, WAW, CPH, ARN etc. etc. What can the market support beyond these existing services, and is there room for OS?

Room, not necessarily, but it's location that seals the deal for VIE. WAW and VIE are ideally suited to focus on eastern and southeastern Europe traffic, which can then pull that traffic from FRA, MUC, ZRH, ARN, etc. and leave them for the stuff like USA-FRA-TXL for which VIE is less well suited. So yes VIE can (and does) provide a valuable and convenient gateway to those areas. In addition:


Quoting sweair (Reply 12):
I see one big advantage with Vienna, its not an over crowded mega hub, if I can I try to avoid the big hubs, I just don't like the chaos at FRA or CDG,LHR..
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 11):
Let the speculations begin! I say SFO and IAH While SFO has a higher probability, what other airport would OS be eyeing? MIA?

There was some discussion a few months' back about LAX, but that boiled down to probably being a bit out of reach given OS's resources and financials. My guess would be that LAX would the strongest for O&D, but SFO and IAH would of course provide connectivity. But I would put LAX and SFO as possibilities with IAH as possible but highly unlikely.
 
kyrone
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:51 pm

Good luck on try 3.. ( I believe its the third) I wonder if they will work locally with LH for cost management and depart out of T1
 
WROORD
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting kyrone (Reply 14):
Good luck on try 3.. ( I believe its the third) I wonder if they will work locally with LH for cost management and depart out of T1

As they say third time is the charm. I do hope it works for them this time especially that they have backing of LH.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 8):
If I recall correctly, they only have one spare plane in the longhaul fleet. So, are they going to cancel somewhere else or will they acquire some 763s or 772s?

They can reduce frequency somewhere else to come up with 3-4 weekly flights to ORD. Is this going to be operated by Tyrolean flight? Not sure why they do not change the name like Swiss did with crossair?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
The other question that OS has to answer is where their value proposition lies. As is, ORD is VERY well connected to the Balkans through existing services on Star Alliance partners via hubs at FRA, MUC, DUS, ZRH, WAW, CPH, ARN etc. etc. What can the market support beyond these existing services, and is there room for OS?

They are one of the few airlines serving places in Iraq, but how much demand there is to this region beyond TK via IST?
Also with LO starting a new 787 product to ORD in February 2013 - others will have to revamp their offering to stay competitive.
 
jcwr56
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting kyrone (Reply 14):
Good luck on try 3.. ( I believe its the third) I wonder if they will work locally with LH for cost management and depart out of T1

Probably not, considering LH and LX don't share management locally at ORD (like AF and KL ). I'm sure OS would bring in their own management and outsource to a 3rd party like LX does for passenger service. For MX, I would say yes, they would use LH.

As for T1, it could work but will UA give up a 767 gate for their own departure at a peak time to accommodate OS? Outside of LH, there is not one * member that departs from T1 in the afternoon or evening.

I'm on a wait and see mindset with this rumor as I spoke with the former OS manager here at ORD and he was surprised OS would try again.
 
Semaex
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:04 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 13):
But I would put LAX and SFO as possibilities with IAH as possible but highly unlikely.

To be honest, I don't see any of those destinations in the OS network for some time. For starters, both SFO and IAH are served via FRA by the LH A380, either full time or seasonal, and I like to think that the parent company is keen on filling up the big jet rather than opening up a new route just for the Balkan traffic.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 15):
Is this going to be operated by Tyrolean flight?

As far as I know from now on all OS flights are "operated by Tyrolean", including long-haul.
Or if you like it the other way around, all aircraft that Tyrolean/Austrian Arrows own are "operated for Austrian Airlines".
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
Semaex
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:52 am

//edit for last post//

LH serves IAH with the 748i of course. Nonetheless the argument is still valid: Such a big aircraft needs to be filled with passengers, and I doubt OS can simply open up a route to IAH which would in fact compete with the LH mothership.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 18):

Hence why it makes more sense to open Chicago since they have a wide network across eastern Europe and the Balkans.
 
jfk777
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:56 am

For a European Star alliance airline flying to Chicago is a natural. Why they ever stopped is a mystery.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 17):
To be honest, I don't see any of those destinations in the OS network for some time. For starters, both SFO and IAH are served via FRA by the LH A380, either full time or seasonal, and I like to think that the parent company is keen on filling up the big jet rather than opening up a new route just for the Balkan traffic.

That's why I qualified my statement - I don't think any of them is especially likely, but in relative terms, SFO and LAX are far more likely than IAH to see OS service I'd think.
 
LH422
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 18):
LH serves IAH with the 748i of course.

No, you mixed that up with IAD. IAH is A388, IAD is B748.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:33 pm

What about BOS....what are the chances they'd be a contender for service, if summer only? I think a 763 would be a perfect aircraft for BOS-VIE.
 
MAV88
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:41 pm

I am surprised MIA does not have year round service to VIE at at least 4-5 times a week.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
For a European Star alliance airline flying to Chicago is a natural. Why they ever stopped is a mystery.

Because this is an industry with razor thin margins. It doesn't matter if OS is affiliated with Star Alliance; that doesn't mean that a nonstop flight to a fellow Star hub on a different continent will be profitable.

Using your logic, does that mean that Aegean, Adria, TAP, Croatia etc. can launch nonstop flights to ORD and break even?? I don't see any signs of that happening soon.

OS is a middle-level niche carrier. VIE is not built to scale a hub equivalent to the size of FRA, MUC and ZRH. The airline seems to give out mixed signals with regards to its long-haul "strategy:" on one hand, they seem intent on building up a presence in the Near/Middle East. On the other, they "claim" that they want to reinstate their long-haul "focus" but their long-haul network is limited to a mere seven routes over 3,000 mi: YYZ, IAD and JFK in North America/NRT, DEL, PEK and BKK in Asia. That's not very much.

This, combined with the fact that they have ZERO long-haul aircraft on order, doesn't really give us many convincing indications.

I just don't see how ORD fits into that picture given the data points above. Bear in mind that OS has attempted ORD TWICE in the past, during MUCH better economic periods and less volatile fuel price environments, and still wasn't successful in sustaining this route.

Now, I could be wrong. Austrian has stayed committed to their restructuring plans. One key difference that *could* help this time around is that a Chicago-Vienna flight will be operated within scope of the Star Alliance Anti-Trust Immunity JV between Lufthansa, Air Canada and United.

Still, I personally think much of this is all talk. The resumption of ORDVIE has been circulating the anet threads for several years now along with mentioning of EWR, LAX and PVG. Again, where will the aircraft come from to support these routes? And, when will OS be considered "stable" enough to provide them? Another competitive threat is also the AB service commencing from Chicago to Berlin in March, which adds another "player" in the ORD-Eastern Europe arena.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:44 pm

But what if Lufthansa is purposely investing in Austrian Airlines and expanding their network because of the mess that is happening in Frankfurt, and to a lesser extent Munich?
 
jcwr56
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):

Here's more...the marketing folks from the city weren't aware of this "rumor" and they're attending the Routes summit next week. OS isn't going to be attending that conference so they'll be approaching LH to see if there's any truth to the rumor.

In the mean time, I'll do the same thing with OS like I did EK, just email them and ask them straight up (I'm not known for being PC). Since the S13 submission deadline is Oct 11th, they have to know one way or another and hopefully we can put this one to rest one way or another.

Off to email....
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 26):
But what if Lufthansa is purposely investing in Austrian Airlines and expanding their network because of the mess that is happening in Frankfurt, and to a lesser extent Munich?

Doubtful. LH's plans for Austrian have been much more focused around intense restructuring, which has led to a noteworthy turnaround. Nevertheless, the entire Lufthansa Group (including LH, LX and OS) is far from done with regards to their SCORE Restructuring Programme, which only calls for 0.5% capacity growth for the remainder of 2012.

I don't think any of it has to do with providing reliever services over Vienna. Complications arising from the night-flight ban at FRA, amid other concerns, can be flowed over MUC and DUS as-is.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
VIE is not built to scale a hub equivalent to the size of FRA, MUC and ZRH.

VIE vs ZRH numbers from 2011:
passengers: 21,106,292 vs 24,337,954
aircraft movements: 246,157 vs 279,001
cargo: 277,784 t vs 415,035 t.
From the basic numbers, VIE is not that much smaller than ZRH. Where ZRH has a significant advantage is in long haul flights. However, with the new terminal, VIE should be ready to act as a ZRH-sized hub.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 8):
Great news for me, but where the aircraft are coming from is the question.

Now that IKA and TLV are back to A32S, that freed up the necessary 767 (they stopped BOM earlier this year).

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
combined with the fact that they have ZERO long-haul aircraft on order

LH once promised that with a positive turnaround, four more used 77E should join the fleet in 2014-15.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:59 pm

As for the aircraft, they can pick up as many LH aircraft as they want. They had a LH 343 this summer doing DXB, a LH 733 as well as an Augsburg E9? So we had LH 343 going to DXB and the OS 763 to Tel Aviv. They are also now the knowledge carrier on 777 in LH, they currently train SU technics on the ship (they get their 773 in Jan) and are (loud internal rumor)nsure to receive a bunch of 777s, in long as many as to replace the 763s. All the 736 and 737-700 are gone, the 800s follow soon. 320s are already being prepared and carry already OE regs. 777s get a refurbishment inside, 767 keep their fungus  . So there is a lot going on in OS. And yes, ORD is in coordination with LH, as most of the traffic already.

As a side note: the guys from SU to whom I spoke told me, that he Superjet was still teething a lot, but is way more efficient than Embraers (compared to the terms medium airlines get the E-Jets), but most surprisingly, the inherited FV A48 are performing perfectly, also UAC think of slamming geared fans on them with extreme bypass ratio, since the high wing can acompany huge diameters.

All I know to the topic!
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JU068
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 30):

So basically Austrian's future longhaul fleet will consist only of B777-200s? Can they fill them on all the routes?
 
os787
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 27):
Here's more...the marketing folks from the city weren't aware of this "rumor" and they're attending the Routes summit next week. OS isn't going to be attending that conference so they'll be approaching LH to see if there's any truth to the rumor.

jcwr56,

Did you hear anything more from the city or from any of your other contacts @ ORD?

In Austrian aviation circles indications are getting stronger that Austrian will soon announce ORD starting May 2nd 2013.
Austrianaviation.net features an article on this topic today, with the only new piece of information being the rumoured May 2nd start date, however their sources tend to be very reliable.
 
LOWS
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting os787 (Reply 32):
Austrianaviation.net features an article on this topic today, with the only new piece of information being the rumoured May 2nd start date, however their sources tend to be very reliable.

Yes, I saw that as well. It seems that when AA posts something, it is more or less confirmed.

Also, in an OS email today, they confirmed they will be beginning the long-haul cabin upgrades in November. Though, no information on how long each plane will take/which ones will go first.
 
jcwr56
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RE: Unconfirmed: Austrian To Restart VIE-ORD

Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting os787 (Reply 32):

Unofficially my email to OS was answered with, please wait until 11OCT. (That's the deadline for S13 schedule submissions) so we'll know one way or another within a week.

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