hnl-jack
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CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:23 pm

KGMB-TV (CBS affiliate - Hawaii) just reported that there is a rumor circulating that DL has plans to acquire HA. This doesn't make sense as HA really doesn't have anything except a route to HND that DL doesn't have already. Yes, there is fleet commonality, but DL has cheaper ways to acquire the same type aircraft for less than acquiring an airline. How in the world do rumors such as this get started?
 
timf
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:05 pm

Must have been a slow news day and someone in the newsroom was browsing airliners.net!
 
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mayor
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting timf (Reply 1):
Must have been a slow news day and someone in the newsroom was browsing airliners.net!

The station's resident aviation "expert" is president of the aviation club at the high school. He's not available for comment because he's in the middle of gym class.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
spiritair97
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:11 pm

I wouldn't see why DL would actually have an interest in HA. As stated above, DL flies most of HA'S routes to the mainland and Asia, so not much of a benefit there.
 
jfk777
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't see why DL would actually have an interest in HA. As stated above, DL flies most of HA'S routes to the mainland and Asia, so not much of a benefit there.

Maybe some body at Delta "Consulting" in Atlanta decided having a hub in the middle of the Pacific Ocean would be a good idea. Honolulu to Hong Kong and Singapore could be coming ? Are they within A330-200 range from HNL ?
 
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mayor
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):

Could find NO reference to this on the station's website.................????
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
spiritair97
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):

Could be. DL obviously aren't strangers to overseas hubs.
 
26point2
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:24 pm

Say it ain't so! HA is the LAST good US domestic carrier.
 
peanuts
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:31 pm

If DL ever made a move on HA (and/or AS) in the future, I'd hope they would try something more innovative and keep the acquired brand intact marketing wise.

"Hawaiian Airlines, A Delta Air Lines Company".

There is too much upside for whomever owns Hawaiian to keep Hawaiian Hawaiian.
Same with AS.

[Edited 2012-09-19 10:32:22]
 
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treebeard787
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:43 pm

I seriously hope this isn't true, the ending result would be a disaster.
Allons-y!
 
bomber996
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Maybe some body at Delta "Consulting" in Atlanta decided having a hub in the middle of the Pacific Ocean would be a good idea. Honolulu to Hong Kong and Singapore could be coming ? Are they within A330-200 range from HNL ?

Sure look to be... HNL-SIN is 6711nm and HNL-HKG is 5568nm

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-hkg%0D%0Ahnl-sin&MS=wls&DU=mi&E=180

Peace   
Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
lhcvg
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Maybe some body at Delta "Consulting" in Atlanta decided having a hub in the middle of the Pacific Ocean would be a good idea. Honolulu to Hong Kong and Singapore could be coming ? Are they within A330-200 range from HNL ?

It is decently enough located within 767 or A330 range of both the U.S. mainland and a good bit of Asia, so it would work from that standpoint. The question that has been brought up before is whether people will connect in HNL on their journey rather than hopping a n/s flight from the U.S. to Asia.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Another thing to note: DL's A330s have P&W engines, while HA's have Rolls. Still, that didn't stop US from adding Rolls-powered A332s to their P&W A333 fleet.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
jfk777
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
Another thing to note: DL's A330s have P&W engines, while HA's have Rolls. Still, that didn't stop US from adding Rolls-powered A332s to their P&W A333 fleet.

Not really an issue, engines are not overhauled by airlines themselves anymore. If a different engine was am issue could you imagine what a problem GE and Boeing would have with the 777-300ER ? It has sold beyond Boeing dreams and many were NOT GE 777 operators.
 
PHX787
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting timf (Reply 1):
Must have been a slow news day and someone in the newsroom was browsing airliners.net!

  

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't see why DL would actually have an interest in HA. As stated above, DL flies most of HA'S routes to the mainland and Asia, so not much of a benefit there.

One could argue that DL has a "hub" of sorts at HNL. No reason to merge with HA because I doubt neither side would benefit.

Plus either way I hope it's not true, because the HA livery is beautiful!
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gigneil
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Honolulu to Hong Kong and Singapore could be coming ? Are they within A330-200 range from HNL ?

Why would they want to fly those routes I do wonder?

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 10):
Sure look to be... HNL-SIN is 6711nm and HNL-HKG is 5568nm

HNL-SIN would splash down long before landing safely. Delta's A330-200s are not the most recent gross weight, and even if they were, 6711nm is pushing it.

NS
 
26point2
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:29 pm

Great Circle Mapper calculates in Statute Miles, not NM. 6711 sm = 5800nm.
 
bomber996
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 16):

Good point... My mistake

Peace   
Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
JAAlbert
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Thread starter):
This doesn't make sense as HA really doesn't have anything except a route to HND that DL doesn't have already.

Couldn't Delta purchase the airline with the (unstated) intention of scuttling a competitor over the long haul? Look at US Air's purchase of PSA - A few years later, US Air simply dropped virtually the entire PSA network. Didn't AA do the same with TWA? AA and Renoair?

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 9):
I seriously hope this isn't true, the ending result would be a disaster.

It really would be. I realize I am no expert in the field, but based on past observations, I just don't see Delta continuing the flights currently operated by HA if it buys the airline. Those would be some pretty 330s to have on hand though!
 
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enilria
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:40 pm

I don't think this is so crazy. NW also had a strong relationship with HA. With HA now in an intra-island monopoly and building up their intl options, I don't think it is so crazy. I don't know if the cost-side works with DL labor. Aside from that it makes network sense and would help Delta gain share on the West Coast where they are weak.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 16):
Great Circle Mapper calculates in Statute Miles, not NM. 6711 sm = 5800nm.

I guess many people forget you can change it to NM right under the Dist+Time tab.

Here is the correct nm numbers:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-hkg%0D%0Ahnl-sin&MS=wls&DU=nm&E=180
 
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coronado
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:44 pm

It is a good way to pick up some more 717's?

88 from WN aren't enough.   
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:07 pm

HA, with their beautiful livery, in Skyteam would be absolutely horrible. I would rather see them in OW or at least Star.

Such a merger would reduce competition on the US-Australia route.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
azjubilee
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:10 pm

I think it's rather suspicious when an official news agency is making a RUMOR into a newsworthy event. That said, this rumor is nothing new. Labor costs are high at HA and so is morale. I see this speculation happening purely because HA is successful and you become a target when others notice your success.
 
eastern747
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:18 pm

First off, why would DL want to buy HA? And who sez HA wants to sell? I don't believe DL has vaults full of money just to through out there. I love these rumors!!!! I'm buying Aroflot stock because my insiders say they are going to buy AA.
 
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mayor
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 24):
I think it's rather suspicious when an official news agency is making a RUMOR into a newsworthy event. That said, this rumor is nothing new. Labor costs are high at HA and so is morale. I see this speculation happening purely because HA is successful and you become a target when others notice your success.

As I mentioned before, I can find no information on the station's website, to verify this "rumor".  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ASA
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
As I mentioned before, I can find no information on the station's website, to verify this "rumor".  

Maybe the station outsourced the rumoring job to the experts at airliners.net 
 
HAL
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:48 pm

This rumor has been making the rounds like clockwork for years. I hear it about every other month, usually from someone at DL who breathlessly comes up to me exclaiming, "I just heard we're going to buy you!". If I had a dollar...   I'd guess that one of those rumor mongers got ahold of one of the TV reporters, and spilled his vision of what DL should do - nothing more.

HA could be bought, but at a very high premium because of its profitability and cash on hand right now. It would be much cheaper for DL to buy their own planes, and build a hub in HNL. The costs of buying HA would greatly outweigh the benefits to any purchaser. It has nothing to do with a great livery, or being the 'last great US airline', but everything to do with the economics. Buying HA just doesn't make sense.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
peanuts
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 25):
I don't believe DL has vaults full of money just to through out there.

I'm not saying this is happening but :

Market Cap:

AS $2.44 Billion (that's $2,440 Million for those in Rio Linda)
HA $300 Million

HA would be considered cheap by any legacy carrier measure...only if it's strategically prudent to do so...

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 25):
And who sez HA wants to sell?

We don't know. But based on Market Capitalization, they would be fools to turn down $600 million. Who knows?
 
catiii
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 28):
HA could be bought, but at a very high premium because of its profitability and cash on hand right now. It would be much cheaper for DL to buy their own planes, and build a hub in HNL. The costs of buying HA would greatly outweigh the benefits to any purchaser. It has nothing to do with a great livery, or being the 'last great US airline', but everything to do with the economics. Buying HA just doesn't make sense.

That's a good analysis, but respectfully I would disagree. Being able to beachhead @ HNL, dehub NRT (and consequently tell the Japanese to get lost after screwing DL on the HND deals), plus synergize the HA fleet, airplane orders, and HND slots into the DL network I think makes them a very attractive (and cheap) target.
 
SFOA380
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
Didn't AA do the same with TWA? AA and Renoair?

...and AirCal
 
yellowtail
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 30):
That's a good analysis, but respectfully I would disagree. Being able to beachhead @ HNL, dehub NRT (and consequently tell the Japanese to get lost after screwing DL on the HND deals), plus synergize the HA fleet, airplane orders, and HND slots into the DL network I think makes them a very attractive (and cheap) target.

Sounds like good logic to me. and no one on the site could ever accuse DL of not trying to think outside the box (eg oil refinery, slot swaps, P2P at MIA etc)
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 27):
This rumor has been making the rounds like clockwork for years. I hear it about every other month, usually from someone at DL who breathlessly comes up to me exclaiming, "I just heard we're going to buy you!". If I had a dollar...

I remember people in the industry telling me in 1999 that it was inevitable that AA was going to buy out AS in the (then) very near future. It was just going to happen for sure.

It's 2012 now and Chester is still flying overhead and independent (and to many more places). Chester has even since gotten lei'd. So much for insiders' rumors.
 
bobnwa
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
Say it ain't so! HA is the LAST good US domestic carrier.

I would think that AS would not agree with that.

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 9):
I seriously hope this isn't true, the ending result would be a disaster.

Disaster for who?
 
DualQual
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 8):
If DL ever made a move on HA (and/or AS) in the future, I'd hope they would try something more innovative and keep the acquired brand intact marketing wise.

"Hawaiian Airlines, A Delta Air Lines Company".

There is too much upside for whomever owns Hawaiian to keep Hawaiian Hawaiian.
Same with AS.
Quoting peanuts (Reply 8):
If DL ever made a move on HA (and/or AS) in the future, I'd hope they would try something more innovative and keep the acquired brand intact marketing wise.

"Hawaiian Airlines, A Delta Air Lines Company".

There is too much upside for whomever owns Hawaiian to keep Hawaiian Hawaiian.
Same with AS.

I would wager Scope clauses on both sides would prevent that. As both groups operated 767s/A330s/and soon 717s, keeping the groups separate could lead to whipsawing on group against the other.

Now if you integrate the groups, fence the hell out of HNL and keep the branding as a Song type of thing, maybe. But DAL has already tried the airline within the airline twice and neither brand is still with us.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
ScottB
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 30):
That's a good analysis, but respectfully I would disagree. Being able to beachhead @ HNL, dehub NRT (and consequently tell the Japanese to get lost after screwing DL on the HND deals)

How did the Japanese "screw" DL on the HND deals? All the long-haul slots at HND are at undesirable times for now.

Closing the hub at NRT makes no sense; HNL is out-of-the-way for U.S.-Asia connections. Even from LAX to SIN, which is nearly on the Equator, traveling via HNL is an hour farther than traveling via NRT. From JFK, HKG is four hours closer (nearly 2000 miles) via NRT.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:36 pm

Cost structure, people! The HA network is a low-yield network. HA makes it work because their costs are quite low (at least quite low in a Hawaii context). DL could not operate the HA network nearly as cheaply.

This is also one of the two reasons why no one has bought AS, constant rumor chatter notwithstanding.
 
jaybird
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:48 pm

I would think the State of Hawaii would step in and require any carrier interested in purchasing Hawaiian Airlines make guarantees about the interisland service. It's not a "good to have" service - interisland service is a necessity in the State of Hawaii. If anyone were to step in and reduce that service it would have a server impact on the State's economy. And there currently isn't anyone already operating here who could boost their service significantly to make up the difference.

My 2cents - I don't think Delta or anyone on the mainland is interested in running the type of interisland service which Hawaiian currently provides.

Keep Hawaiian Airlines Hawaiian!  
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 8):
If DL ever made a move on HA (and/or AS) in the future, I'd hope they would try something more innovative and keep the acquired brand intact marketing wise.

"Hawaiian Airlines, A Delta Air Lines Company".

There is too much upside for whomever owns Hawaiian to keep Hawaiian Hawaiian.
Same with AS.

Actually, my dream scenario is one where Alaska Air Group acquires HA, but keeps them a wholly-separate company under the Alaska Air Group banner. Route harmonization between the two companies - using widebodies where necessary, and 737-800s where necessary - would equal big profits.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 25):And who sez HA wants to sell?
We don't know. But based on Market Capitalization, they would be fools to turn down $600 million. Who knows?

And Alaska Air Group could fork over $600 million in cash, today, without batting an eye.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:53 pm

Hmm well I call BS. And I really really would not doubt the source of this rumor was A.net... there was a thread on this not too long ago. It wouldn't be the first time the media mentioned us, they even called us "industry experts" in one article LOL

DL has a decent sized HNL operation, but HA's is, IMO, a completely different type of operation. And buying HA for 330s? Yeah don't think so
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
9252fly
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:14 pm

The most interesting thing in this thread is the mention of SIN. That's not a destination I would imagine HA ever flying to until I thought about the potential. Anyone got an opinion,considering SIN is considered a wealthy country? HKG is another destination that I would imagine offers opportunities for expansion.
 
peanuts
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 38):
And Alaska Air Group could fork over $600 million in cash, today, without batting an eye.

Agreed.
I think the first one to make a move on HA will actually spark a bidding war. HA may be a sitting duck right now.

[Edited 2012-09-19 15:27:28]
 
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seabosdca
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 40):
Anyone got an opinion,considering SIN is considered a wealthy country?

It's a long route -- borderline, at best, for a densely configured A332. HA could definitely fly it with one of their pending A358s, but it would be a laborious development effort, not just to promote HA, but to promote Hawaii in Singapore. It's very expensive to fly flights that long to develop a vacation market. So I doubt it will happen.

Hong Kong would be a considerably easier target.
 
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n901wa
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:49 pm

Man, I have been hearing this rumor since the Magoon days   But I gotta say, I have been hearing it from the HAL side since Delta has been doing the MTC on the A330, From HNL to ATL.
I also Would like Hawaiian to stay Hawaiian   We already lost Aloha. Plus I don't want to work with my Brother. Ha Ha  
 
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Revelation
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 19):
NW also had a strong relationship with HA. With HA now in an intra-island monopoly and building up their intl options, I don't think it is so crazy.
Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Market Cap:

AS $2.44 Billion (that's $2,440 Million for those in Rio Linda)
HA $300 Million

HA would be considered cheap by any legacy carrier measure...only if it's strategically prudent to do so...

Why not just tactical?

HA is in a good intra-island monopoly position, perhaps is punching above their weight, and DL is said to perhaps know something about running an airline, so why not?

There's not many ways to grow an airline business except mergers, and there aren't many candidates around that the DoJ would allow DL to acquire, so why not?
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
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dwightm
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:27 pm

There is always the cahnce that Delta can take a great airline like Hawaiian and turn it into another PSA, AirCal, Reno Air, TWA, etc.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
There's not many ways to grow an airline business except mergers,

Tell that to AS. They've grown well. And they make a profit independently without becoming another PSA, Air Cal, Hughes Airwest, Reno Air or TWA.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:39 am

This rumor has floated around DL HDQ some while ago. The reason why is Delta wants more Asia routes. Frankly, I dont see that Hawaiian brings anything to the Delta franchise. No corporations will switch to Delta because they bought HA.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):

Not really an issue, engines are not overhauled by airlines themselves anymore. If a different engine was am issue could you imagine what a problem GE and Boeing would have with the 777-300ER ? It has sold beyond Boeing dreams and many were NOT GE 777 operators.

uhhhh.....You know Delta overhauls almost ever single engine in its, and Delta Connection's fleet?
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: CBS Hawaii Rumor: DL To Acquire HA

Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting jaybird (Reply 37):
I would think the State of Hawaii would step in and require any carrier interested in purchasing Hawaiian Airlines make guarantees about the interisland service.

Step in how? Honest question as I have no idea what a state could have to do with it. What can they do other than control tax incentives?

If it's that important, they should run their own state-run airline like Washington State Ferries. Maybe Hawaii residents should buy HA.

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