Canflight
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Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:03 pm

Here it is: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N348AE

Wow, now that's a long flight for an ATR
 
PHX787
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:16 pm

Did they put extra tanks inside it? And I recall seeing the 717s being ferried with extra tanks-- how did they get those inside the cabin?
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Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Yes, they put extra tanks in and use a very specialized highly trained group of ferry pilots. That said, 8 hours in an ATR 72... wow, i hope they bring some nice catering with them! Maybe they bring a Cathay Pacific flight attendant to serve some fine dining and make the time pass.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Wow, I'm surprised they didn't use the bay area as their launching point for the over water journey. A long flight indeed!
 
mhkansan
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:15 pm

I didn't know they were getting ex-AT (Executive) ATRs. That is an impressive flight, especially for a -200.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:16 pm

What very specialized highly trained pilots are necessary for a long overwater ferry?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:20 pm

They basically take all the seats, move them to the back and put fuel tanks in. The pilots need to have a lot of training to take an airplane that is designed to do an hour flight and do 9 hours. But primarily it's about the additional fuel management.

Does anyone know how this works?
 
aztrainer
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 3):
Wow, I'm surprised they didn't use the bay area as their launching point for the over water journey. A long flight indeed!

I was wondering the same thing.

Quoting Canflight (Reply 2):
Yes, they put extra tanks in and use a very specialized highly trained group of ferry pilots. That said, 8 hours in an ATR 72... wow, i hope they bring some nice catering with them! Maybe they bring a Cathay Pacific flight attendant to serve some fine dining and make the time pass.

How many pilots would be on a flight like this? I can imagine that it would get really boring about an hour into the overwater portion. I would bring the Ipad also to kill the time not being PIC.
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:00 pm

I'm not sure, but I think just two pilots.

As far as where they left from perhaps someone needs to look at it on a 'globe' to see if it's actually closer to leave from MMV than it would be from SFO or LAX? I bet it has more to do with airport fees, perhaps MMV is very cheap!
 
catdaddy63
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Great circle mapper shows MMV-HNL as 2231nm, LAX-HNL as 2221nm, OAK-HNL as 2093nm. MMV probably was significantly less expensive.

Edit: Corrected to nautical miles.

[Edited 2012-09-22 16:20:43]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting Canflight (Reply 8):
I'm not sure, but I think just two pilots.


For a flight over 8 hours, wouldn't convention require a relief pilot or is that not necessarily still enforced since it is not under airline operations and is under a different Part.

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 9):
Great circle mapper shows MMV-HNL as 2231nm, LAX-HNL as 2221nm, OAK-HNL as 2093nm. MMV probably was significantly less expensive.

With the aux tanks, MMV-HNL was probably within the calculated range. Going via OAK would have been a waste of fuel since it would be a detour that wouldn't save much fuel.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
rfields5421
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
For a flight over 8 hours, wouldn't convention require a relief pilot or is that not necessarily still enforced since it is not under airline operations and is under a different Part.

A plane will make such a flight under a special rule because of the ferry tanks. They would not take more than two pilots for weight. Rather have that extra 200 pounds of fuel than another relief pilot.

Several times each year smaller/ slower aircraft are ferried to/ from Hawaii with just one pilot. Again - saving weight for more fuel is most important.

The flight will be delayed as necessary for the right weather for the trip, The company and pilots check the aircraft very closely. The pilots are scheduled and supported for maximum rest before the flight begins.

There are several small companies that do this type work, and have an excellent safety record.
 
alaska737
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 11):
Several times each year smaller/ slower aircraft are ferried to/ from Hawaii with just one pilot. Again - saving weight for more fuel is most important.

Yep, I ferried a Twin Otter from OTH (North Bend, Oregon) to HNL last winter with another pilot. We had to wait a few days for the winds to die down. Even at 12,000 feet they we too strong for us. Granted the flight was 15 hours so we didn't have much fuel to spare for winds.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:44 am

BTW - the shortest open water distance transfer to Hawaii is via Adak Alaska and Midway Island. The total distance if over twice as long, and weather in the Aleutians is frequently even more tricky - but if the plane can only go 1600-1800 nm - that's the route to take.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=kmmv-ph...dy-phnl&MS=wls&DU=nm&SG=265&SU=kts

If you want to talk about an uncomfortable flight - in 1967 my cousin made the trip from El Toro to Chu Lai in the back seat of an F-4 Phantom. His story about trying to find Wake Island when the pathfinder tanker had to RTB early is scary.
 
Celticmanx
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:55 am

No need special training and the ATR 72 empty can fly that distance in that amount of time.
I crossed the Atlantic in a 42 and took 7 hours 38 minutes and we still had fuel to continue fly a little further, not much but we did. We did not have to take any special training and did not carry auxiliary tanks. The only thing out of the routinary was to install a provisional HF antenna to be able to communicate with ATC during the flight
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:00 am

Here she is safe and sound in HNL... wow what an amazing journey. It's cool to see this plane with the HNL mountain in the background. Who was she with before?

https://www.facebook.com/islandairhawaii
 
NASBWI
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 4):
That is an impressive flight, especially for a -200.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography


I dunno if it makes much of a difference, since the -212's share the same powerplant as the -500s. I'm guessing their performance is similar (with the -500 allowing for more payload), and probably superior to the -202's that came before them.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
NASBWI
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting Canflight (Reply 15):
Here she is safe and sound in HNL... wow what an amazing journey. It's cool to see this plane with the HNL mountain in the background. Who was she with before?

Gorgeous photo, and a beautiful livery! Her former 'employer' was Executive Airlines (dba American Eagle).
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:07 am

This is the first of seven that they'll be getting two 72s and five 42s. I think things are going to be dramatically different in the inter island world over the next year.

So am I to understand the the regular Island Air pilots could do this ferry flight. I hear that the pilots are specially trained to be part of these 'ferry' companies. I wonder what it costs to do the trip?
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:27 am

I knew guys that did this for Mesa Air with the CRJ-200 and it was impressive. I wish I still had the photos. They took all the seats out and shipped them separately and filled the cabin with large tanks.

The pilot said that it is surprisingly easy flight and it is done more often than you might think. I would imagine the ATR or 717 or any other plane is no different.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:31 am

A new fleet with Island Air is not going to dramatically change the inter island business. The elephant in the room however, is how Hawaiian's new t-prop operation will affect Island Air, Mokulele and Pacific Wings.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:47 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
For a flight over 8 hours, wouldn't convention require a relief pilot or is that not necessarily still enforced since it is not under airline operations and is under a different Part.

Its mostly indiviual airline contracts that decide when relief pilots are required. Crews in Canada for example can operate up to 14 hrs duty.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 21):
Its mostly indiviual airline contracts that decide when relief pilots are required. Crews in Canada for example can operate up to 14 hrs duty.

Not correct. It is a case of the nation's regulations. The Fed regulations in the states for part 121 operations specify that any flight over 8 hours requires 3 pilots. The ATR delivery today was operated under part 91, thus it was more flexible and did not require an augment.

[Edited 2012-09-22 22:53:04]
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xdlx
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting Celticmanx (Reply 14):


Many ferry companies out there..... but you are right, other than Fuel Management and HF just a longer flight.
check... www.americankingair.com
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:27 pm

The aircraft arrived safe and sound. I'd love to see a before and after picture of this aircraft. They just put up all these pictures on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/islandairhawaii
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:34 pm

Here is the 'after'. Does anyone have the 'before'

 
wedgetail737
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:51 pm

Does this mean the beginning of the end of the Dash 8 service as we know it for Island Air? Nice, refreshing paint job!
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:21 pm

Yes, they are removing the Dash 8s over the next 6 to 8 months and going to a full ATR fleet. I am not as familiar with these aircraft so it would be cool if someone could do a comparison. Perhaps this is covered in another topic area, so apologies

Here is another pic



 
daviation
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:42 pm

Just out of curiosity, I flew in July on Island Air's Dash-8 out of JHM. It was a pretty fancy takeoff! Engines fully revved, brakes set until engines fully spooled, fast takeoff, jumped off the 3000 foot runway.

Here it is actually:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2EJfvyVpl0

How will the ATR-42 make it off the JHM runway? Less runway needed? More runway needed?
PlaneFlown:717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC8,DC9,DC10,L1011,F100,A300,319,320,321,330,340,CRJ,ERJ,E190,Av85,DH8,Beaver,ATR
 
T prop
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 28):

How will the ATR-42 make it off the JHM runway? Less runway needed? More runway needed?

The ATR cannot perform like the Dash 8 when it comes to short runways, they will have to take a weight penalty, so they won't be leaving JHM with a full load.
 
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usxguy
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 20):
The elephant in the room however, is how Hawaiian's new t-prop operation will affect Island Air, Mokulele and Pacific Wings.

What do you mean? Island Air barely has a 55% load factor using 37 seat Dash 8s, so basicly doubling capacity may not do too much. Mokulele reported they are in the mid 80% load factors and have slightly lower fares than Island Air, so I don't think there will be much panic down in Kona.
xx
 
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usxguy
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Actually I guess I should reword my last post. I just noticed these are the old A models. American Eagle took weight restrictions almost anytime these guys showed up in Marsh Harbour & Key West. I want to say it was an average of 4 passengers a flight out of EYW, and 6 out of Marsh Harbour (which was a longer flight). I even remember them asking for volunteers on FLL-NAS, and it wasn't oversold. So not sure if its a C/G issue or just overall payload.
xx
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:44 am

I wonder how they will work this out. The next aircraft is a ATR 42 so I think it can handle the shorter runway in West Maui JHM

Does anyone know if the 42 can be utilized from JHM?
 
T prop
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting Canflight (Reply 32):
Does anyone know if the 42 can be utilized from JHM?

Yes. Mahalo Air used to do it.
 
T prop
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 31):
Actually I guess I should reword my last post. I just noticed these are the old A models

Which one is the A model? The one in the picture is a -212 with PW127 engines. There are earlier models (202) that have PW124's, you sure it's not the 202's that are the ' A ' model?
 
Canflight
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:13 am

What happened to Mahalo Air? Why did they go under?
 
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usxguy
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:17 am

Yes... American Eagle/Miami had 2 types; one with 4 blades and one with 6 blades. The 6 blades are the more 'advanced' ATR-72s that didn't have any of the weight restrictions. They were called "A" and "B", so that may be a bit confusing when discussing the -212 and -212A

"B" model

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joop de Groot



"A" model

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hector A Rivera-SJU Aviation Photography



I was a supervisor/trainer with another airline at a large station that had a fairly healthy amount of American Eagle flights; it seems that anytime the "A" models were booked over 58 they were taking a penalty on a 45 minute flight :/ They had no problems with the "B" models.
xx
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 36):

Yes... American Eagle/Miami had 2 types; one with 4 blades and one with 6 blades. The 6 blades are the more 'advanced' ATR-72s that didn't have any of the weight restrictions. They were called "A" and "B", so that may be a bit confusing when discussing the -212 and -212A

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this what ATR markets as the -200 and -500? I didn't know the -212's took that much of a weight penalty. That would certainly explain why MQ always had chase planes following them around taking baggage ex SJU. Point to note, only the 4 bladed ones are in SJU now.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting Canflight (Reply 35):
What happened to Mahalo Air? Why did they go under?

Like most airlines that go bust, they ran out of cash. HNL newspaper article re their shutdown.
http://archives.starbulletin.com/97/09/03/business/story2.html
 
azjubilee
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RE: Island Air New ATR 72 Ferry Tracking Today To HNL

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:02 am

USXguy - my point is that once the Hawaiian t-prop operation starts, there will be a draw towards HAL for many passengers taking them away from Island Air, P-Wings and Mokulele.

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