ecbomberman
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:05 pm

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...ass?CX_LANGUAGE=en&CX_COUNTRY=INTL

Apparently CX has launched a new regional business class. But by the looks of it, it is quite a disappointment. It just looks like a Premium Economy Seat and leagues behind SQ's regional business class.

What are your opinions to it>
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9vswr
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:14 pm

It looks pretty slick, but seems to be a reclining cradle seat in a shell as opposed to the 'new' lie-flat regional business class products from SQ and TG, which is essentially not that different from many newer generation Premium Economy products? It doesn't seem like a big step up from their current regional business product.

The press release doesn't mention the extent to which the seat can recline, so that remains to be seen.

[Edited 2012-09-24 07:19:25]
 
sq_ek_freak
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:45 pm

Yikes that looks really weak, especially compared to SQ's new offering and the fact that TG is pretty much refitting their fleet to have all long haul config (save for the older A330s). The photo itself makes the cabin look cramped, and it resembles AF's Premium Economy cabin kind of. Really does look like a flimsy recliner with a shell tacked on to the back of it. It actually also vaguely resembles their old J, the one from two seat generations ago!

I'd obviously have to wait and see, but first impressions are quite dismal.
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CX Flyboy
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:12 pm

I think considering where these aircraft will be deployed, the seats would be fine. They won't really be doing any flights more than about 4-5 hours long, unlike Thai and SQ who both have regional flights up to Japan which must be in the 8hour range in winter. Everyone always wants more than what they pay for in their class.
Of course, how good they really are will remain to be seen and CX do not always make the right decisions when it comes to cabin interiors. I suppose from CX's point of view, even the now very old regional business class draws in the passengers fairly well, and we get good loads and good yields relative to this tough environment so they were never going to offer something groundbreaking as they simply did not need to. In any business you try to keep your costs down and when you need to invest in a new product, you try to spend the minimal amount to get the desired effect which is of course bring in the passengers. CX has always been lucky in this respect that they don't need to go to the extremes that other carriers do in order to fill the planes. Spend a little bit and the pax flow in. Other carriers may need to spend a lot of money for that 'wow' factor in order to have the same effect with pax.
 
EddieDude
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
They won't really be doing any flights more than about 4-5 hours long

That is an interesting point. I have to agree that for flights of less than 5 hours, it looks quite good. A lie-flat seat in the fashion of SQ's new regional class might be too much for sectors of up to this duration.

The article states these seats will be fitted on the 777-200, 777-300, and A330-300. I suppose this means A-model or non-ER 777s. Is that right?
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Sydscott
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
and A330-300

Interesting considering CX uses A330's on some of is Australian services. I'd have thought they would need sleeper seats considering those services can be around the 8 hour mark.
 
9vswr
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 5):

Australian services are operated by A330s fitted with CX's longhaul/new longhaul Business Class products.
 
aquariusHKG
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting 9VSWR (Reply 6):
Australian services are operated by A330s fitted with CX's longhaul/new longhaul Business Class products.

I thought Brisbane / Cairns uses the regional product A330?
 
RyanairGuru
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
They won't really be doing any flights more than about 4-5 hours long, unlike Thai and SQ who both have regional flights up to Japan which must be in the 8hour range in winter.

True, SQ also use their 330s with the "regional" product to Australia, and SIN-BNE is also around the 8 hour mark. While this product does put CX at a competitive disadvantage (especially on the important SIN-HKG route) I guess that if they aren't loosing too many passengers at the moment then it isn't worth doing anything too drastic. After all, they have pretty much all HK's corporate contracts locked up and its them who will be filling J to NRT and SIN.
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AF185
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:59 am

Those seats really look like Premium Economy seats, though we willl need to experience this new product to judge.
One of CX's strengths is that they have a very strong customer and corporate base that will continue flying whatever product CX decides to launch..
 
coolfish1103
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:04 am

It will be fun flying to Japan and India in these seats!
 
TravellerPlus
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:57 am

Cairns and Brisbane feature CX's full international product. The new 3 class product with premium economy will be on the Cairns route from 28 October. CX classify Australia as a long haul market, do they won't be placing the regional product on those routes.
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qf002
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:27 am

It's pretty unfair to compare this seat to the likes of SQ. As pointed out, SQ's 'regional' seat is used in a much wider range of destinations outside Asia when compared to CX (Australia, Middle East, potentially even secondary cities in Europe?). CX's product is strictly for Asia...

I think it looks good enough. More recline, more pitch, more width, new IFE screens, hard shell to protect personal space etc. The only thing that concerns me is the fact that the hard shell appears to go all the way to the floor, which could massively restrict foot room (because it will no longer be possible to stretch out under the seat in front)...

Does anybody know what will happen to Y when this new product is fitted? Will there be new seats? If there is a new IFE system then I imagine Y will be getting an overhaul as well...
 
CX Flyboy
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:18 am

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 10):
It will be fun flying to Japan and India in these seats!


India will be progressively served by a longhaul product to compete with Jet and Air India.
For Japan, certain sectors already feature the longhaul product and for the other secondary destinations there is little or no competition.
 
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zeke
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting 9VSWR (Reply 1):
which is essentially not that different from many newer generation Premium Economy products?

The long haul CX Premium Economy seat is used from what I understand by other carriers as a domestic "First Class" seat.

Quoting 9VSWR (Reply 1):
It doesn't seem like a big step up from their current regional business product.

I would have to agree. It is a seat, it reclines, and you have IFE. It is more comfortable, and the IFE and connectivity is better. What else do you really want on a HKG-TPE/BKK/SIN/SGN/CGK etc ?

The changes are a seat pitch increase, seat width increase, seat recline increase, leg rest recline increase, better headrest, PTV size increase, AVOD, larger tables, multi-port iPhone/iPod/iPad connector, USB/PC Power.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
A lie-flat seat in the fashion of SQ's new regional class might be too much for sectors of up to this duration.

I thought the SQ seat on the A330s was an almost lie-flat, i.e. still inclined around 10 degrees, on comparable 7-8 hr flights CX offers a 100% flat seat.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):

The article states these seats will be fitted on the 777-200, 777-300, and A330-300. I suppose this means A-model or non-ER 777s. Is that right?

The regional 777 and A330 fleets.

Quoting 9VSWR (Reply 6):

Australian services are operated by A330s fitted with CX's longhaul/new longhaul Business Class products.

Correct

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 7):
I thought Brisbane / Cairns uses the regional product A330?

Not for a long time.
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ecbomberman
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
The long haul CX Premium Economy seat is used from what I understand by other carriers as a domestic "First Class" seat.

I'm sure (hopefully) CX would not want to associate with airlines that would consider this product as domestic 'First Class'.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):

And I would think that passengers would not be that pleased to find out that there is a huge discrepancy between the Business Class product they are getting on shorthaul flights (e.g.: SIN) where 77W and 747 also serve the route.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
In any business you try to keep your costs down and when you need to invest in a new product, you try to spend the minimal amount to get the desired effect which is of course bring in the passengers.

I would agree to that. That is the most ideal situation. But what I'm concerned is that what would the FF think if they fly both CX longhaul and shorthaul and find that the Regional Business Class looks like longhaul PE?


What about early shorthaul flights? I presume that pax would prefer a short nap during the flight?

Quoting AF185 (Reply 9):
Quoting AF185 (Reply 9):
One of CX's strengths is that they have a very strong customer and corporate base that will continue flying whatever product CX decides to launch.

I agree with you. The reason I brought up this post is to have a critical viewpoint of the new product. I'm not anti CX but sometimes you have to be critical of something in order to improve things. I would like to apologise in advance if my posts seem to offend any CX fans/employees.
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zeke
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
I'm sure (hopefully) CX would not want to associate with airlines that would consider this product as domestic 'First Class'.

As a suggestion you may want look at what is available as domestic only configured aircraft in the USA, what they call first class, most would call premium economy, and the service standards are well below an Asian carriers business class level. This regional business class seat is very comfortable, and similar to what one will find in Europe, Australia, and elsewhere in Asia for shorter haul flights and narrow bodies, with better before and after flight experience, IFE, catering, and service.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
The reason I brought up this post is to have a critical viewpoint of the new product. I'm not anti CX but sometimes you have to be critical of something in order to improve things. I would like to apologise in advance if my posts seem to offend any CX fans/employees.

I thought it would be worth correcting the statement in your first post, "leagues behind SQ's regional business class".

This is the SQ regional business class found on their older 777s used regionally.



CX has similar if not the same seats installed on the older 777-200/300s and A330, they are the ones being replaced with the upgraded product. There is more to this upgrade than what has been announced, only what is cosmetically visible to passengers has been talked about so far.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
ecbomberman
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
As a suggestion you may want look at what is available as domestic only configured aircraft in the USA, what they call first class

I'm sure CX would want to be classified above most N.American airlines and in par with the top tier Asian Airlines.

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
I thought it would be worth correcting the statement in your first post, "leagues behind SQ's regional business class".

As I have said, I am being critical about the CX product. There are 2 reasons why people would be critical of things. 1) they have nothing better to do OR 2) They really want their opinion to be heard and genuinely wants the company to do well. As a HK-er I would like to think that I'm the latter as CX is one of the few 'treasures', in which I mean, a globally recognised brand.

My concerns are:

1) FF would think that the Regional Business Class looks like PE
2) I'm sure I would not be a happy bunny if the route served by A/C which has the Regional Business Class also has B744/B77W/A343. This would definitely be a HUGE step down in terms of hard product.

I'm sure that you know more about the new product and may not be at a position to disclose anything, but lets just discuss what we know at the moment (I.e.: the official CX page on the product).

Maybe I should make myself clear again, I'm not anti-CX.

[Edited 2012-09-25 06:13:57]
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qf002
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
And I would think that passengers would not be that pleased to find out that there is a huge discrepancy between the Business Class product they are getting on shorthaul flights (e.g.: SIN) where 77W and 747 also serve the route.

It's not been an issue that has driven passengers away before, so I don't see why it should start to now.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
But what I'm concerned is that what would the FF think if they fly both CX longhaul and shorthaul and find that the Regional Business Class looks like longhaul PE?

What about early shorthaul flights? I presume that pax would prefer a short nap during the flight?

I think you're over-thinking this. A frequent flyer knows to expect a lesser product when on a shorter regional flight than what they find on a 16 hour flight to the US. Fully flat beds on 2-3 hour hops is overkill.

In any case, I think the seats are different enough that these seats still appear to be quite different to the W seats. More width for starters (2-2-2 on the A330 compared to 2-3-2 in W) and considerably more pitch. The hard shell will make the whole thing look and feel very different, as do small things like the orange insets, which reflect the long haul J product...

Not to mention that the service will be a J standard.
 
ecbomberman
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
This is the SQ regional business class found on their older 777s used regionally

I don't want to start a fight......... But the word OLDER says it all. This product may be REVOLUTIONARY during the 2000's but we're in the 2010's and one would certainly expect something better.

The main problem is that the CX New Regional Business Class looks too similar to the CX Premium Economy minus the minor cosmetic enhancements.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 18):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 18):
Not to mention that the service will be a J standard.

DEFINITELY!
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qf002
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
The main problem is that the CX New Regional Business Class looks too similar to the CX Premium Economy minus the minor cosmetic enhancements.

Very few passengers will judge the product on how it looks cosmetically. They're more interested in seat comfort and service, where this product will be far superior to longhaul W.
 
celestar
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:47 pm

I have to say I love the older business class regional seat. The one that has a deep shade of green. Yes, they don't look modern, the video screen is unpleasant to use (it hides between the seat), but boy, what a recline! I almost fall into sleep on these seat before take off. To me, the modern designed seat does not recline enough, not wide enough. My only complaint on these old seat is that the tray table is too low for my big overweight body!
 
CX Flyboy
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):

And I would think that passengers would not be that pleased to find out that there is a huge discrepancy between the Business Class product they are getting on shorthaul flights (e.g.: SIN) where 77W and 747 also serve the route.

This is no different to SQ who fly regional 777s, 77Ws, 330s and the A380 on the HKG-SIN route all with very different products.
Besides, if they are FFs, then they will be familiar with the configurations offered and would choose their flights accordingly.

...and quite frankly I don't think the PEY looks the same as this new regional business class at all apart from the fact they are both green.
 
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zeke
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
I don't want to start a fight......... But the word OLDER says it all. This product may be REVOLUTIONARY during the 2000's but we're in the 2010's and one would certainly expect something better.

This seat is only going on the regional fleet, it will not be going onto our newer A330s or 777s used for medium to long haul. The new aircraft with premium economy are in long haul configuration, they have the lie flat business seats.

The seat is equivalent or better as the new seats installed on domestic/regional 787s with Japanese carriers. You will find it is better than the Qantas domestic, Lufthansa domestic, Emirates regional, Thai domestic, Malaysian regional, and Singapore regional products.

Setguru has a bit of comparison on different short haul first class products, this might help you understand where this product is placed on a global comparison.

http://www.seatguru.com/charts/shorthaul_first_class.php
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sq_ek_freak
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
I think considering where these aircraft will be deployed, the seats would be fine. They won't really be doing any flights more than about 4-5 hours long, unlike Thai and SQ who both have regional flights up to Japan which must be in the 8hour range in winter.

Out of curiosity what will be the longest flight the new regional config will serve? Do all of CX's Middle East flights get the long haul config?

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 3):
CX has always been lucky in this respect that they don't need to go to the extremes that other carriers do in order to fill the planes. Spend a little bit and the pax flow in. Other carriers may need to spend a lot of money for that 'wow' factor in order to have the same effect with pax.

True, but its a slippery slope once you start lagging behind your direct competitors and falling back on your existing reputation. I sort of think this is what happened with the herringbone disaster, which has now been rectified (and then some) by the awesome new long haul biz seat. In my opinion, CX's new Biz offering is better than SQ's on the hardware and crew side, but for me the major, major, let down is catering. SQ wins here.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 5):
Interesting considering CX uses A330's on some of is Australian services. I'd have thought they would need sleeper seats considering those services can be around the 8 hour mark.

I think at OZ flights at CX get the long haul config.
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zeke
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):

Out of curiosity what will be the longest flight the new regional config will serve?

Too hard to say, non-stop probably something like HKG-BOM, around 5 hours.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):
Do all of CX's Middle East flights get the long haul config?

No, as a number of them are not direct. The direct flights do normally get the long haul product.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):
I sort of think this is what happened with the herringbone disaster

I actually preferred the privacy they provided.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):

I think at OZ flights at CX get the long haul config.

They normally are these days, however, nothing stopping them sending done a regional configured aircraft if they had to as a last minute aircraft swap.
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CX Flyboy
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):
In my opinion, CX's new Biz offering is better than SQ's on the hardware and crew side, but for me the major, major, let down is catering. SQ wins here.

Sad how people always forget to mention safety record when comparing airlines. I would quite frankly happily take worse service if it meant a good safety record. You are not alone though, safety is rarely mentioned when judging airlines both from passengers and official award givers. Sad really.

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):

Management recently stated their intention for all the Indian flights to have flat beds and the premium product given they are mostly night flights. Given that, I would guess the furthest this new business class wil go is Sapporo or Denpasar.
 
TreeHillRavens
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 22):

This is no different to SQ who fly regional 777s, 77Ws, 330s and the A380 on the HKG-SIN route all with very different products.

Regional 772 with new Regional Business Class that comes with a seat pitch of 60", just to be clear   Despite that SQ sell 2 types of Business Class seat between SIN/HKG, both types of J seat are fully flat bed. One is an angled flat bed and another one's a real fully flat bed.

SQ have very few 2-class 772 still with the Ultimo seat that features 50" seat pitch and they no longer send these to HKG. The HKG flights that are operated by the 772 are the ones that have been reconfigured with the new Regional Business Class seats.

Quoting zeke (Reply 23):

You will find it is better than the Qantas domestic, Lufthansa domestic, Emirates regional, Thai domestic, Malaysian regional, and Singapore regional products.

Even SQ ? But there are like less than 10 772 and 1 773 still with the old Ultimo Seats. The rest all have the new Regional J seats already.
 
sq_ek_freak
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Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 26):
Sad how people always forget to mention safety record when comparing airlines. I would quite frankly happily take worse service if it meant a good safety record. You are not alone though, safety is rarely mentioned when judging airlines both from passengers and official award givers. Sad really.

I mean at least in my mind, as a more than lay informed person but without true insider knowledge of either operation, it would seem both SQ and CX are comparable in the domain of inflight safety, so the point here is moot. With that in mind, all other things being equal, what I said above was my opnion of the two airlines. I realize you are crew with CX, and I meant no offense in any of my comments above towards the airline.
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RyanairGuru
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 26):
Sad how people always forget to mention safety record when comparing airlines.

Out of interest what is it that you are referring to here? SQ have 1(?) hull loss in 40 years, which is hardly enough to mark them as an unsafe airline.
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zeke
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 27):

Regional 772 with new Regional Business Class that comes with a seat pitch of 60", just to be clear

That is not their regional business class, that is what SQ calls their medium haul business class. They do not have their regional business class on their website. The CX medium haul business class is a 100% lie flat seat, it is not inclined.

http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/fl...ness-listing/medium-haul-business/

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 27):
Despite that SQ sell 2 types of Business Class seat between SIN/HKG, both types of J seat are fully flat bed.

I believe it is 4 types.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 27):
SQ have very few 2-class 772 still with the Ultimo seat that features 50" seat pitch and they no longer send these to HKG. The HKG flights that are operated by the 772 are the ones that have been reconfigured with the new Regional Business Class seats.

See above, that was supposed to be the case with SQ870/859 and SQ866/865 since early 2010, that has not always been the case. Many factors result in aircraft swaps, and regional flights are more likely to get equipment changes.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 28):

I mean at least in my mind, as a more than lay informed person but without true insider knowledge of either operation, it would seem both SQ and CX are comparable in the domain of inflight safety, so the point here is moot.

The public appearance would be that SQ actually has a better safety record than many other airlines, despite having a fleet of over 100 airframes and operating the tropics, the number of public reports of events occurring on SQ in SE Asia aircraft is well below industry average. When they operating in other parts of the world the number of reported incidences is somewhat higher than SE Asia.

I cannot remember the last time an engine failure or passenger evacuation was reported in Singapore for an SQ aircraft, it is like the events do not exist in the public domain. I know they have aviation reporters in Singapore, as many other airlines (e.g. CX/QF/EK) seem to have reports of events occurring there making the local papers and social media very quickly.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 29):

Out of interest what is it that you are referring to here? SQ have 1(?) hull loss in 40 years, which is hardly enough to mark them as an unsafe airline.

I think we should leave it there, the public appearance is as you suggested.
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TreeHillRavens
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Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):

That is not their regional business class, that is what SQ calls their medium haul business class. They do not have their regional business class on their website.

Not quite so. It is not only called medium-haul business class, it is also marketed as their regional business class. See below:

http://www.singaporeair.com/pdf/media-centre/bg-biz.pdf

So yes. They do call it Regional Business Class too.

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):

See above, that was supposed to be the case with SQ870/859 and SQ866/865 since early 2010, that has not always been the case. Many factors result in aircraft swaps, and regional flights are more likely to get equipment changes.

Yes. It happens but it is extremely rare and not much chance for the mentioned flights to be operated by the non-reconfigured 772 anymore as there aren't many left in the active operating fleet.

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):

I believe it is 4 types.

Sorry. I forgot about the Spacebed earlier. Anyway, it should still be 2 actually because the 772 with Ultimo seats are very rarely deploy to HKG nowadays. When SQ are selling the tickets for flights to HKG, the Business Class seats are meant to be either the long-haul J or the new regional J. However, flights operated by 772 are sometimes substituted by the 772ER with Spacebeds or the 772 with Ultimo seats (rare). This is purely due to operational issues. CX on the other hand, are indeed selling 3 different types of Business Class seats (soon to be 4) for their flights in this region.
 
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zeke
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 31):
So yes. They do call it Regional Business Class too.

So when a customer goes to http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/flying-with-us/business-listing/

Where does it say regional business class ? Where is their current regional business class ?

Do you see the difference here

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_HK/whatonboard/businessclass

When a customer looks at the aircraft seat maps, where does it say long haul, medium haul, or regional business class ?

http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/flying-with-us/ouraircraft/

Do you see the difference here for example ?

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_HK/whatonboard/ourfleet/a_330_300

Where is this marketing you claim exists ? No customer would see that PDF file when looking at their website for a fare.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 31):
Sorry. I forgot about the Spacebed earlier. Anyway, it should still be 2 actually because the 772 with Ultimo seats are very rarely deploy to HKG nowadays.

It is more than that, they have 8 differently configured 777 layouts which come to HKG. The A380 and 77W seats are not the same, they are however very similar. Likewise the A330 and reconfigured 777s are very similar, but not exactly the same.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 31):
When SQ are selling the tickets for flights to HKG, the Business Class seats are meant to be either the long-haul J or the new regional J

You mean their medium haul product that does not lie flat that they also send on 8+ hr flights ? or is it their regional product that almost lies flat that they use on 1-4 hr sectors ?

They cannot have it both ways, CX has a true lie flat medium haul and long haul product, and a regional product which is better than the current SQ regional product for regional flights. Australia for example CX only schedules lie flat aircraft, SQ schedule both lie flat and inclined.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 31):
CX on the other hand, are indeed selling 3 different types of Business Class seats (soon to be 4) for their flights in this region.

CX normally does not fix the aircraft type on the HKG-SIN route, the same flight number can have a different type each day of the week. It can be anything, 772/773/77W/A330/A340/744. There is currently 4 products, soon to be 5, until all the upgrades are over, then 3. The A350 will introduce another seat to the equation again.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6039
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 29):

Out of interest what is it that you are referring to here? SQ have 1(?) hull loss in 40 years, which is hardly enough to mark them as an unsafe airline.

I think we should leave it there, the public appearance is as you suggested.

I am not going to start a slander campaign against another airline here. You are correct, apart from one major crash in recent years, SQ does not feature in the news much about their safety. The public perception is that they are safe and I would agree that SQ are amongst one of the better airlines in terms of safety when compared to many airlines around the world I would not step foot on.
 
ecbomberman
Topic Author
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:27 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):

I would like to think it differently. As you have mentioned in the previous post:

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
I thought it would be worth correcting the statement in your first post, "leagues behind SQ's regional business class".

This is the SQ regional business class found on their older 777s used regionally.

The thing is that SQ older regional business class has been replaced by the medium/regional business class 1 for 1. So I would not blame people for associating it as a regional business class. Plus, SQ do serve sectors that you specified that are 4-5hrs long

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):

Out of curiosity what will be the longest flight the new regional config will serve?

Too hard to say, non-stop probably something like HKG-BOM, around 5 hours.
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 33):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 33):
SQ are amongst one of the better airlines in terms of safety when compared to many airlines around the world I would not step foot on.

Same applies to CX.
VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
 
ecbomberman
Topic Author
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 26):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 26):
Sad how people always forget to mention safety record when comparing airlines

Agreed. I remember listening on the radio on the day when the A333 had to make a single engine landing due to fuel quality in CGK. The broadcaster dare say that the captain didn't divert when there were ECAM messages indicating problems with the particular engine and that the captain 'wanted to show off his skills and risk the lives of all the pax by landing with one engine'.

Of course, I was furious to say the least that she implied that. But yes, it is sad that people do only look at the surface of things (e.g.: product) and often neglect the safety record of airlines. Perhaps it's due to the fact that there are a lot fewer serious aircraft incidents nowadays.

Having said that, CX do seem to have a problem or 2 with their flights (e.g.: 744 HKG-LHR with no air conditioning and continued the remainder of the flight (10+ hrs)?). Not a safety issue, but an annoyance. I might have to make a disclaimer as I read this on the newspaper and things 'may' have been exaggerated.

Sorry that I have digressed from the main topic
VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):

So when a customer goes to http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/flying-with-us/business-listing/

Where does it say regional business class ? Where is their current regional business class ?
Quoting zeke (Reply 32):

Where is this marketing you claim exists ? No customer would see that PDF file when looking at their website for a fare.

You can't always use CX website as a gauge and expect the see the kind of information that is presented to you by CX in other airlines website.

You've seen the official press statement from SIA yet you continue to deny that that their new medium-haul J seat is also their new regional J. Well, nevermind. Because it doesn't change the fact that the seat we are talking about is indeed their current Regional/Medium-haul Business Class. And you do realize the 772 with derated engines are on their way out ? And the rest that have not been reconfigured will be by replaced by the new 333.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):

It is more than that, they have 8 differently configured 777 layouts which come to HKG. The A380 and 77W seats are not the same, they are however very similar. Likewise the A330 and reconfigured 777s are very similar, but not exactly the same.

Simply because they have 777 in 8 different seat configuration, it doesn't mean they are flying all these to HKG. As mentioned, the flights between SIN/HKG scheduled to be operated by the 772 are operated by the reconfigured 772, and occasionally substituted by the 772ER with Spacebed. The 772 with Ultimo seats are very rarely deployed or substituted to HKG nowadays as there aren't many left.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):

The A380 and 77W seats are not the same, they are however very similar. Likewise the A330 and reconfigured 777s are very similar, but not exactly the same.

The Long-haul Business Class on SQ 388 is wider and comes with tiny bit more generous seat pitch compared to the one on their 77W. But they are the same seat, just with different seat pitch and seat width.

The Regional/Medium-haul Business Class on those reconfigured 772 also has more generous legroom compared to their 333 but they are the same seat too, but also with different seat pitch and seat width. IFE is very different though.

If you think these seats cannot be referred as the same, then perhaps CX new long-haul J on their 77W and 333 can't be referred as the same too.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
You mean their medium haul product that does not lie flat that they also send on 8+ hr flights ? or is it their regional product that almost lies flat that they use on 1-4 hr sectors ?

Funny. You said that you can't find any information regarding SQ regional business class in their website, yet here you are. Referring the Ultimo seat as SQ's current regional business class  

Before SQ took delivery of their first 333 a few years ago, the 2-class 772 with Ultimo seats were deployed to BNE, PER, KIX, just to name a few. It won't be long before all these 772 with Ultimo seats are gone too.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9922
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
You can't always use CX website as a gauge and expect the see the kind of information that is presented to you by CX in other airlines website.

I agree, there are a lot of airlines that are upfront and publish what they provide, other airlines that do that include ANA, JAL, CX, LH, QF, GA, MH.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
You've seen the official press statement from SIA

The document is a backgrounder, not a press release. This is an example how it was reported http://www.flyinbusinessfirst.com/si...rlines-medium-haul-business-class/

Notice the SQ backgrounder and report in the link explicitly state "selected" 777-200/300 aircraft.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):

Simply because they have 777 in 8 different seat configuration, it doesn't mean they are flying all these to HKG

They have, and also the 744s since that product was launched.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
And you do realize the 772 with derated engines are on their way out ?

A lot of airlines are retiring older aircraft, that does not stop them from providing the information to the passengers.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
The 772 with Ultimo seats are very rarely deployed or substituted to HKG nowadays as there aren't many left.

I realise that, it has happened.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
But they are the same seat, just with different seat pitch and seat width.

OIC

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
they are the same seat too, but also with different seat pitch and seat width. IFE is very different though.

OIC

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 36):
CX new long-haul J on their 77W and 333 can't be referred as the same too.

What is the difference on the lie flat seats apart from part from the seat belt ? I thought the Olympus when deployed was the same length, width, IFE across the A340/A340/77W/744, and the new long-haul same width, length. IFE on the A330/77W.

What am I missing ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
The document is a backgrounder, not a press release. This is an example how it was reported http://www.flyinbusinessfirst.com/si...rlines-medium-haul-business-class/

Notice the SQ backgrounder and report in the link explicitly state "selected" 777-200/300 aircraft

It was reported both as New Regional Business Class and Medium-haul Business Class. There are so many similar articles online.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
They have, and also the 744s since that product was launched.

I am well aware of that. But we're talking about now. And you can hardly see a 772 with Ultimo seats being deployed to HKG.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
What is the difference on the lie flat seats apart from part from the seat belt ? I thought the Olympus when deployed was the same length, width, IFE across the A340/A340/77W/744, and the new long-haul same width, length. IFE on the A330/77W.

I was talking about the Sicma Aero Cirrus seat specifically. ausbt was one of the first sites to report the minor differences. It's minor, just like SQ's new long-haul J on 388 vs 77W and new regional/medium-haul J on 333 vs 772/773.

Anyway, you should know better right ? So why ask ? I've learnt so much from all the posts you posted here over the years. But i can't agree with your take on this new SQ angled lie-flat bed J seat. So i shall just leave it here.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9922
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 38):
I was talking about the Sicma Aero Cirrus seat specifically. ausbt was one of the first sites to report the minor differences

The seat belts and arm rest are slightly different (as the host airframe is different), not the actual size of the seat people sit on, the amount of incline, or the capability of the IFE.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 38):
. It's minor, just like SQ's new long-haul J on 388 vs 77W and new regional/medium-haul J on 333 vs 772/773.

The CX products are the same width and length, and same IFE.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 38):
But i can't agree with your take on this new SQ angled lie-flat bed J seat.

That is because you think it is equivalent to the long haul product when deployed to Australia etc where passengers actually also get true lie flat seats and the inferior inclined seats. The long haul products are also different.

CX regional passengers get everything, every aircraft type is used regionally from the long haul configured 77W/744/A340/A330 to the regionally configured A330/777s. Medium and long haul, it is the same product regardless of what aircraft people fly on, and they also provide the details to passengers at the time of booking.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
changyou
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:57 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 31):
Yes. It happens but it is extremely rare and not much chance for the mentioned flights to be operated by the non-reconfigured 772 anymore as there aren't many left in the active operating fleet

   Ultimo seats are no longer used on Sin-Hkg vv flights. Its all Diamond/Weber and occasionally Spacebeds. Ultimos seats and Weber seats are currently deploy on JKT/DPS/BKK/BWN/MNL/HAN/KUL and occasionally CMB. Mostly ultimos seats are for flights to South east asia below 3hrs.
 
changyou
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:57 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
Australia for example CX only schedules lie flat aircraft, SQ schedule both lie flat and inclined.

All OZ flights are equipped with Diamond(380/77W) and Weber(330/772R/773R) seats. No ultimo seats.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6039
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 38):
I am well aware of that. But we're talking about now. And you can hardly see a 772 with Ultimo seats being deployed to HKG.

Which registrations planes are still using these Ultimo seats?
 
9vswr
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:31 pm

Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 42):

A total of 11 are still fitted with the ultimo seats; 9V-SRF to SRL, 9V-SQE/SQF/SQH and 9V-SYE. They'll be phased out when the new A333s arrive next year.
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
The seat belts and arm rest are slightly different (as the host airframe is different), not the actual size of the seat people sit on, the amount of incline, or the capability of the IFE.
Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
The CX products are the same width and length, and same IFE.

Not really. The seat width and usable bed width on the 333 (cirrus seat) is not the same as on the 77W (cirrus seat).

Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
That is because you think it is equivalent to the long haul product when deployed to Australia etc where passengers actually also get true lie flat seats and the inferior inclined seats. The long haul products are also different.

No. I've been comparing the Regional Business Class between the two said airlines all along which you disagreed that the Business Class seats on SQ's 333 & reconfigured 772/773 are also SQ's current Regional Business Class. Initially you said that there is no mention of SQ Regional Business Class in their website. But then, you actually referred the ultimo seat (which is being replaced by the angled lie-flat weber seat) as their current Regional J in one of your later replies.

Anyway, it is a fact that Singapore Airlines itself is calling the Weber J seat on their 333, 772R and 773R as Regional Business Class as well as Medium-Haul Business Class.

http://www.singaporeair.com/pdf/media-centre/bg-biz.pdf

Quoting changyou (Reply 40):
 Ultimo seats are no longer used on Sin-Hkg vv flights. Its all Diamond/Weber and occasionally Spacebeds. Ultimos seats and Weber seats are currently deploy on JKT/DPS/BKK/BWN/MNL/HAN/KUL and occasionally CMB. Mostly ultimos seats are for flights to South east asia below 3hrs.

  

Quoting 9vswr (Reply 43):
A total of 11 are still fitted with the ultimo seats; 9V-SRF to SRL, 9V-SQE/SQF/SQH and 9V-SYE. They'll be phased out when the new A333s arrive next year.

9V-SQE/SQF/SQH are the ones with F, J and Y while 9V-SYE is the sole 773 that has not been reconfigured. The 3-class 772 are normally deployed to CGK. People have been reporting that the 3-class 772 is also being deployed to BKK on a regular basis for quite a few weeks now.
 
ecbomberman
Topic Author
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 24):
I sort of think this is what happened with the herringbone disaster

I actually preferred the privacy they provided.

I don't think the herringbone design was a disaster. Tried it on a different airline, who originally made this concept. It gives exceptional privacy, which I like loads. One interesting fact.... 3 airlines did use the herringbone design for the HKG-LHR route a couple years back.... CX,NZ and VS. Back to the topic of disastrous CX seats. The hardshell economy seats, is a disaster in my opinion.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
The A380 and 77W seats are not the same, they are however very similar. Likewise the A330 and reconfigured 777s are very similar, but not exactly the same.

Let's not be that pedantic. Keep it simple, The Longhaul 77W and A380 Business class seats are of the same design and the Medium haul 77E/773/333 are of the same design. Let's take the length and width out of the equation.

Because if you don't one can argue the herringbone Business Class offered by CX on the 744 lower deck is different to the ones on 744 upper deck and A333 and A343.

As I have mentioned before, you can dig up loads of websites on SQ to prove the fact that it is a medium-haul business class seats rather than regional business. However, you cannot deny the fact that the seats are being changed 1 for 1, hence you can't blame people from thinking the SQ business class is regional.

As I'm a new member, I'm not sure whether it is legal to do so. I've taken a screenshot of the comments left behind on a famous networking site. Seems that some layman like me do think that it is like the Premium Economy site




[Edited 2012-09-27 02:52:44]
VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:50 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 45):

As I have mentioned before, you can dig up loads of websites on SQ to prove the fact that it is a medium-haul business class seats rather than regional business. However, you cannot deny the fact that the seats are being changed 1 for 1, hence you can't blame people from thinking the SQ business class is regional.

Not quite so. SQ is calling this weber J seat their Regional Business Class too, and at the same time also calls it their Medium-Haul Business Class. This can be found in their own website too. And before they revamped their website, you can dig out different information there.

http://www.singaporeair.com/pdf/media-centre/bg-biz.pdf
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:21 am

More pictures and a video on this new CX Regional J on BT. One can still put his feet underneath the seat in front of him and the new seat pitch is 47".

http://www.businesstraveller.com/asi...veils-regional-business-class-seat
 
ecbomberman
Topic Author
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:26 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 47):

It does mention that it has 1-4 inches more recline compared to the old business class but it doesn't seem to show in the pic. Maybe it's the angle of the picture that is taken. Nevertheless, that's an improvement  

What I'm concerned about is the foot well area. Would people with big feet feel uncomfortable when placing their feet on the foot rest? Had bad experience with the VS J2000 seat (The one before the herringbone) and I had loads of trouble getting my feet at a comfortable position.

Another thing that I can think of is would things get jammed when placed at the bottom of the seat if the person in front decides to recline their seat? That's another problem I observed with the old VS business class.
VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9922
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class

Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 44):
Not really. The seat width and usable bed width on the 333 (cirrus seat) is not the same as on the 77W (cirrus seat).

It is, the difference is the arm rest, which can be pushed down to be the same level as the actual lie flat seat. The actual seat size and IFE is the same.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 45):
The hardshell economy seats, is a disaster in my opinion.

I do not like them either, and the replacement seat is already being deployed.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 45):
I've taken a screenshot of the comments left behind on a famous networking site. Seems that some layman like me do think that it is like the Premium Economy site

Not sure what that is supposed to show, as none of those people have actually experienced it. There are a number of sites that tend to get hijacked by people who are very passionate about particular brands.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 45):
The Longhaul 77W and A380 Business class seats are of the same design and the Medium haul 77E/773/333 are of the same design. Let's take the length and width out of the equation.

They maybe of the same manufacturer, they are however different sizes, and have a different IFE, it is not consistent. SQ does not have a consistent product regional, medium haul, or long haul, they have not for years.

The point I was making before is on their long haul product, SQ are offering some different width, length, and IFE, it is not consistent, same with medium haul (eg Australia gets both lie flat and inclined seats in the same market), the fares however are geared towards the best product offered. Regionally they get a mix of everything, and again people are being charged a premium when they maybe getting something very inferior..

CX has a consistent product long haul and medium haul, and only regionally there is a difference. When people book a ticket with CX, they are getting a consistent product when traveling long haul and medium haul. If they have a regional destination after a long haul it could be anything, and it is priced like that.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 45):

Because if you don't one can argue the herringbone Business Class offered by CX on the 744 lower deck is different to the ones on 744 upper deck and A333 and A343.

Please elaborate on the difference, as far as I am aware, the actual seat/bed size is the same.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar