AirCalSNA
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:42 pm

I'm curious what you industry insiders think about the logic of what appears to be an intentional disruption of AA's operations by its employees. Now that AA is in bankruptcy court, both the court and creditors hold the real power, not management. And the court and creditors have a much lower stake in the continued operation of AA as a going concern than management does. Aren't AA employees basically telling the court and creditors to give up on AA by creating dysfunction?
 
aacun
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:47 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:47 pm

I think you should rephrase your topic and not generalize. Its only the pilots who are at dispute with the airline right now.
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 970
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:49 pm

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty at the company that aren't happy, the pilots are just the ones that are making the news.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:06 pm

I'm flying AA later this week and I will be none too happy if my flights are disrupted and will have no sympathy for the pilots. No reason to take it out on the customer, If I tried screwing over customers in my job I wouldnt have a job plain and simple.
 
User avatar
pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:07 pm

I for one think the pilots have a lot of balls and they have my respect.

Management at AMR sees the employees more and more as an entry on a spreadsheet* and no more contributory to their success than other cost centers like printer ink or the electric bill. This is what MBA thinking gets you, the complete inability to account for intangible human factors in corporate success.

I wish more stock owners and employees would take the pilots' course and challenge ingrained management.

Pu

* Insofar as the future AMR has real employees....check out the American Eagle hiring page, virtually all the AA groundstaff foing forward will be minimum wage, non-benefit-holding staff in every station. Eagle becomes a non-flying ground handler and spun off, meanwhile any AA airport employee gets rapidly fired, or offered a new $7 / hour job with Eagle.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 3):

I'm flying AA later this week and I will be none too happy if my flights are disrupted and will have no sympathy for the pilots. No reason to take it out on the customer, If I tried screwing over customers in my job I wouldnt have a job plain and simple.

It would behoove you to not assume, then. The airline is beyond critically understaffed with no action by management. Most cancellations are being done at least the day prior, and they just pink slipped a major portion of the work force of mechanics.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:29 pm

I think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent. I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots. One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract. Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules). So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money and the passengers are now thrown into a battle that was previously staged bhind the scenes.

So, long story short the pilots and management are both cutting their own throats. Each side hoping to cut just deep enough without bleeding out!
 
AirCalSNA
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent. I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots. One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract. Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules). So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money and the passengers are now thrown into a battle that was previously staged bhind the scenes.

So, long story short the pilots and management are both cutting their own throats. Each side hoping to cut just deep enough without bleeding out!

Interesting. So it's basically a game of chicken, with the entire company at stake. And to clarify ... I'm not criticizing either side, who both seem to have valid points. I'm really focusing on the potential of work disruptions in the context of bankruptcy to destroy the entire company. I don't think I've ever heard of this happening where an airline is in bankruptcy before.
 
QANTASvJet
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:25 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:51 pm

Are they seeking to cut their own throats or the throat of the airline as a whole? Are they trying to create the perception that AA is so dysfunctional that it's not worth the bother of a reverse take-over? If they think that will save their jobs they are completely deluded. Meanwhile the fat cats who run the unions will be seeing the cash roll in.
 
commavia
Posts: 10121
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
The airline is beyond critically understaffed with no action by management.

... and yet that "critically understaffed" operation was managing 75%+ on-time mere weeks ago. So besides the somewhat demoralizing and disincentivizing effect of layoffs for a few thousand mechanics, which I can see, what else could possibly explain the change?

  

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
I think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent.

I'm not sure if I would say management is "just as responsible," but management did handle this stupidly. On balance, while I see the argument that just implementing the TA would have essentially rewarded the pilots for voting no, it was stupid at this juncture to further inflame an already volatile situation by imposing (for the most part) the term sheet, instead. And, worst of all, it was insanely stupid for the company to roll out proposed changes, many of which were based on the less severe TA, and then days later backtrack and instead opt to impose primarily the harsher term sheet terms instead. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots.

Agreed.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract.

Agreed. As another poster said repeatedly - mutually assured destruction.

Much as these pilots might like to claim that AMR's proposals are so awful that they have nothing left to lose, the reality is that many of AA's pilots are middle-aged or at the end of their career, and as such many would likely find it difficult to fully recoup the pay, vacation and benefits lost if they had to start over now at another carrier. As such, there is definitely incentive for them to see AMR continue to exist. And the incentive for AMR management to keep the company a going concern is self-evident.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules).

Yes.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money

Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the moment from some obligations it will at some point have to settle and/or pay, but nonetheless the company's finances have clearly turned around. They are of course far from where they need to be, but AMR's recent monthly operating reports have shown a consistent trend of improving income and cashflow performance, and leading or near-industry-leading unit revenue growth. And all of that was before the company had yet restructured its union contracts, which were one of the single most critical elements to transforming AA into a viable competitor.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20505
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:52 pm

Listen the company decided to take the nuclear option. They vaporized the pilot contract, and by the slimmest margin were able to get the mechanics to agree to a revised one.

In the mean time, AA has shown the door to 1,700 mechanics, reduced parts inventories, and admittedly in their own planning are running an operation that was short of crews to begin with and needed volunteers and goodwill to get the holes covered.

Add this up, I'm not surprised the operation if falling apart. There are less mechanics, and the good will of pilots to cover the scheduling holes is lost. In the mean time, you have the FAA doing its heightened surveillance of the airline and voila here we are.

While yes the previous CBA's might have certainly been burdensome, taking the nuclear option was the companies, and now it must deal with the fall out.

[Edited 2012-09-24 17:10:47]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23507
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:05 am

United's pilots did the same thing with "The Summer of Hell" back in 2000 and a decade later there were customers still bitter about it (and now flying AA - doh!).
 
Flighty
Posts: 7882
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:08 am

The airline was basically run by the pilots. Arpey was doing the pilots bidding until the last moment when it was clear AA is no longer viable with its current headcount and wage structure.

What needs to change (whether professional pilots or professional corporate types are in charge) is the wage structure, and headcount and work rules. AMR pilots can't rewrite the rules of math. The industry is quite healthy and able to support them. But it IS a marketplace in the end. Customers DO have plenty of options with or without AMR and those particular pilots who work there.

Still. This is a natural stage AA is going through during its restructuring process. Often labor believes they are owed something, even when the business is bankrupt. Morally I can't imagine "what" they believe they are owed. Bankruptcy itself appears to make that line of thinking ludicrous on its face. But being ludicrous won't stop them.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):

... and yet that "critically understaffed" operation was managing 75%+ on-time mere weeks ago. So besides the somewhat demoralizing and disincentivizing effect of layoffs for a few thousand mechanics, which I can see, what else could possibly explain the change?

I guess that's what happens when you screw your employees. How motivated would you feel? I mean, they could fire them all... oh, wait.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1574
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting aacun (Reply 1):
Its only the pilots who are at dispute with the airline right now.

Incorrect. The pilots may be the only group without a contract, and, other employee groups are dissatisfied and witholding enthusiasm.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty at the company that aren't happy, the pilots are just the ones that are making the news.

True.


I still have to ask the question from time to time. Why were AA management receiving bonuses (Yes, I know, now worthless) over the last few years, to operate the company in an unprofitable way?
Why is the behavior of AA mangement not given the same scrutiny of the alleged actions of the pilots, mechanics, or others?

[Edited 2012-09-24 17:30:07]
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:18 am

Give this a read from an AA pilot. It's interesting and may shed some more light on the subject at hand:

http://riskreportonline.com/2012/09/...ed-reporting-on-american-airlines/
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
klkla
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:20 am

In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1574
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.

BRAVO! Well said!
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Thread starter):
I'm curious what you industry insiders

LOL don't get anyone's egos too boosted.

I'll keep my opinion short. Yes, AA's management sucks and AA pilots have a right to be pissed. I think they're going about it the total wrong way. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Don't piss off the passengers... they really don't care about your problems, they just want to get to their destination. You're screwing yourself and your company more than management IMO
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:42 am

The pilots will not be cutting their own throats if something goes down in the future. It will truly be a murder suicide between AA management and the Pilots.



The airline was basically run by the pilots. Arpey was doing the pilots bidding until the last moment when it was clear AA is no longer viable with its current headcount and wage structure.[/quote]


Whaaaaaaat?
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 19):
Whaaaaaaat?

Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Course the Pilots kept saying no to all this.
Even funnier when Pilots bitched about not having enough hours at the same time they (by way of the union) were preventing AA from giving them more.
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:52 am

If the employees stick together and follow the company rules by the book the operation sinks. Look at it this way you have worked for a company for 20 years saving your sick time for that just in case sickness happens and you have built up 500-700 hrs of sick time and now the company is going to go back all those 20 years you have saved your sick time and take 25% back from you. Do you think you would cash some out before you loose 25%
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Um, do you have any idea how labor relations work???? Geez, I'm usually more pro-management and think the AA pilots here (as well as management) are acting up, but really??
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:57 am

[quote=XT6Wagon,reply=20]Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Again, Whaaaaaat? What planet are you on. We had nothing to say about the new planes. They want to fly somewhere, fine go there. And as far as mommy this and mommy that, the last thing AA management would ever do is ask anyone for permission or advice. The executives would all walk straight off a cliff before they would ever ask for directions.

The only time we had a major discussion, was for the ultra long haul routes. They were unprecedented and were starting due to the uber long range aircraft coming. ALL airlines were negotiating the same thing. There were many fatigue and safety issues involved. I know, fatigue and safety are words we pilots use to cover up our intent to screw everyone.

I can only guess you have been working here longer than me and have much more insight than I do! And with my having close to 30 years seniority, you must be VERY senior.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 7):
Interesting. So it's basically a game of chicken, with the entire company at stake.

That's how I see it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the moment from some obligations it will at some point have to settle and/or pay, but nonetheless the company's finances have clearly turned around. They are of course far from where they need to be, but AMR's recent monthly operating reports have shown a consistent trend of improving income and cashflow performance, and leading or near-industry-leading unit revenue growth. And all of that was before the company had yet restructured its union contracts, which were one of the single most critical elements to transforming AA into a viable competitor.

I know. That is why I didnt use profit. They are definitely more profitable right now (granted a lot of expenses are not being accounted for right now). I used them term making less money because anytime you have to cancel flights and rebook passengers the airline is losing money on that transaction as well as the loss revenue from passengers that book away because of the fear of disruptions. So regardless of how the financial picture has turned around, the airline is still losing money as a result of the current disruption to operation.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Bankruptcy itself appears to make that line of thinking ludicrous on its face.

Well, not exactly. While part of the bankruptcy code, a chapter 11 filing is a 'restructuring' not an actual 'bankruptcy'.
Businesses file chapter 11 as a means to avoid becoming bankrupt. Not saying AA didn't need to file, I thought they should have done it sooner and I still do, but they are not bankrupt, so you cant just use that term to justify someone's response to the current situation as it doesnt apply in the technical sense.

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

  

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

     

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.

We don't know what the actual end game is. So it is hard to say they should have cleaned house. If merger is the goal, why bother with the added time and cost to bring in new management? Also continuity and familiarity can speed up certain aspects of the restructuring and still replace them when it is over. I agree that AA management desperately needed an overhaul but I dont know if doing so after filing was the best move (several years ago to try and avoid a filing would have been a great idea in my mind), I will say that if AA emerges as a stand alone carrier that management certainly needs an overhaul!
 
commavia
Posts: 10121
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 23):
We had nothing to say about the new planes.

Interesting, considering that it was the position of many less than a year ago that AA would be taking delivery of jets that it could not crew because language for those jets was not specifically enumerated in the CBA. False?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 23):
They want to fly somewhere, fine go there.

If only it were that simple.

Two words: International. Baseline.

One of the most critical competitive disparities between AA's pilot contract and the comparable pilot contract of other major U.S. airlines. This incredibly outdated contractual term, as I read and understood it, not only distinctivized AA from growing its international network, but perhaps more egregiously actually distinctivized AA from cancelling an underperforming international route once started, because it might force AA to end profitable international codesharing. If my characterization of the "international baseline" provision is false - which it very well may be - please correct me.

(From my perspective, others critical competitive disparities in the APA contract included domestic codesharing and the structuring of scope and regional feed.)

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 23):
The only time we had a major discussion, was for the ultra long haul routes. They were unprecedented and were starting due to the uber long range aircraft coming. ALL airlines were negotiating the same thing. There were many fatigue and safety issues involved.

Any insight as to why the issue of ultra long haul flying was not resolved at AA while it appeared to get resolved - years ago - at several other U.S. airlines? Was there something the company was demanding from the APA on this issue above and beyond what, for example, Delta got, that was a red line or no-go for the APA?



[Edited 2012-09-24 18:14:39]
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:14 am

The issue was only with the 787's. There was not pay rate negotiated percee. Buy quite frankly, it was a pressure tactic by the company to hold that order over our heads. Up until the 1113 filing, pay was determined by a weight and speed calculation. So in reality, the formula was there to calculate a pay rate just like at the other airlines.

The long haul agreements at the other airlines were far more favorable that what AA was proposing. It was definitely a fatigue issue. Why would we turn down more 777 flying. Sometimes there really are reasons for what APA does.

At this point, we are just having a urination contest. It would make a lot of sense to just agree to disagree.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:23 am

commavia-

DL flies some of the longest ULR routes in the world, and in contrast our company came to us and negotiated excellent provisions for the operation- all with safety and fatigue mitigation in mind. We have to have very specific rest facilities and rest requirements. Modifications had to be done to the NW A330-200's at the merger because they did not have a rest facility suitable for our requirements.

On the other hand, AA management came in, as usual, with a combative attitude and attempted to use it as leverage against the pilots.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
2175301
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
Management at AMR sees the employees more and more as an entry on a spreadsheet* and no more contributory to their success than other cost centers like printer ink or the electric bill. This is what MBA thinking gets you, the complete inability to account for intangible human factors in corporate success.

Please enlighten me which other major corporations exist that do not treat the vast majority of their employees and a number. This isn't a mom & pop operation. The corporation I work for has over 30,000 employees. I have worked at a variety of companies in the past (from 6 person operations to my current large corporation). Yet it seems that most larger corporations seem to make money repeatedly dispite their treatment of their employees as just a number (and clearly replaceable).

Once you seem to get past 1000 or so employees things become very impersonal (I have worked at 6 corporations above 1000 employees). Only under 100 (or so) do things seem much different (and I have worked for 5 companies of this small small size).

Have a great day,
 
9252fly
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:19 am

Where is Doug Parker in all of this and I wonder what he's thinking?
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 27):
Modifications had to be done to the NW A330-200's at the merger because they did not have a rest facility suitable for our requirements.

I'm not disputing the point that DL is generally very good in providing proper crew rest facilities - but to argue semantics, this is incorrect.

They were modified not because they weren't suitable to your requirements.... they were modified because they needed a 2nd bunk for flights over 12 hours.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4077
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:44 am

"Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the moment from some obligations it will at some point have to settle and/or pay, but nonetheless the company's finances have clearly turned around. "


If I told you that you didn't have to pay your mortgage, rent, car payment, credit card bills tomorrow AND that all the debt associated with that would be wiped out and/or renegotiated you would have a better balance sheet too. I know I would.

Meanwhile the situation is spiraling out of control with no end in sight. How long does this keep up? It happened to UA in 2000, but UA was healthy financially. AA is in BK and on the cusp of a Parker takeover. They have a public relations nightmare on their hands AND they are going through a court ordered reorganization because they are insolvent.

As Yogi Berra said "it gets late early around here."
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 30):
They were modified not because they weren't suitable to your requirements.... they were modified because they needed a 2nd bunk for flights over 12 hours.

Correct- NW did not utilize them for over 12 flying (why, I'm not sure). There was quite a bit of negotiating and back and forth, though, to get an appropriate facility which was more my point.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:43 am

I feel like this could be my generation's Eastern, only instead of the rampers its the pilots sinking the ship.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 33):
I feel like this could be my generation's Eastern, only instead of the rampers its the pilots sinking the ship.

Here we go again. It's the pilots sinking the ship. It is so far more complicated than that. It takes both a hole (AA management) and water (the pilots) to sink a ship. A hole without water or water without a hole is not a problem for a ship.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 33):
I feel like this could be my generation's Eastern, only instead of the rampers its the pilots sinking the ship.

You've got to be kidding...
Chicks dig winglets.
 
User avatar
yellowtail
Posts: 3750
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 29):
Where is Doug Parker in all of this and I wonder what he's thinking?

Probably off talking to DL about how much he is going to sell them MIA for when he takes over AA. See other active thread    
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting pu (Reply 4):
I for one think the pilots have a lot of balls and they have my respect.

Management at AMR sees the employees more and more as an entry on a spreadsheet* and no more contributory to their success than other cost centers like printer ink or the electric bill. This is what MBA thinking gets you, the complete inability to account for intangible human factors in corporate success.

I wish more stock owners and employees would take the pilots' course and challenge ingrained management.

First of all, the current shareholders will not be the shareholders of AMR, when it exits bankruptcy. As is the case with 99% of Chapter 7 filings, shareholder equity will be wiped out. So, even if the shareholders were shocked by what management is doing, they don't have the power to throw them out. Any termination of senior management would have to be proposed by the creditors and the bankruptcy trustee and approved by the court.

Absent US getting ownership of AMR upon exit, the creditors, the TWU, and the APFA will become the new owners. If the APA would stop with the calling in sick and take the last T/A, they will own 13.5% of the new AMR.

I've said on other posts that if APA takes the T/A, then the three major unions will own almost 20% of AMR. Now, I'm assuming that a number of creditors have no faith in current management, but they probably have no faith in Doug Parker, CEO of US.

Doug Parker is another airline exeucitve who started out at AMR, when Bob Crandall ran the company. The culture he created has not turned out great CEOs, and I don't see how Doug Parker would be any different.

If the unions have 18%, then they only need roughly 32.5% to control the company. I would bet a fair amount of money that there are enough creditors/future shareholders to take control, put a brand new board of directors in place, and recruit a new senior management team.

Personally, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the pilots. U.S. unemployment is over 8%. I know a lot of people who are earning less today than in 2008, when the banking problems led to the recession. And while we all know that pilots spend far more than there 70+ hours a month doing there jobs, I know a lot of people who work a good 60 hours a week, if not more, plus commuting.

Most people who aren't under a collective bargaining agreement would be severely disciplined, if not terminated for cause, if there work performance created the kinds of customer disruptions that have gone on at AA.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20505
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:32 am

And lo and behold, AA wrote to APA this afternoon stating they would like to re-engage in negotiations.
APA board is to meet on Wednesday to offer a response.

Story:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ble-return-to-contract-talks.html/


As has been stated by many, including the judge in this case, its imperative the parties reach a consensual deal.
Working under the quasi limbo state following the CBA abrogation is not a long term option for the company.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2389
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 15):
Give this a read from an AA pilot. I

Yawn. More "Back to 2003" union drivel.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
b377
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:51 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am

The problem with the current AA pilot and AA management fiasco is that neither side is willing to make the necessary actions to bring this to a close.

The pilots had a great opportunity to vote in the LBFO, which would have given them a 6 year contract, at substantial improvement over the April 2012 TA. As the AFPF and TWU unions at AA concluded, the US Air merger would bring a new contract much earlier. This opportunity was summarily disregarded by the pilots, which would have resulted in a much shorter agreement.

AA management told the union members, as did the APA lawyers and the previous APA executive that was forced to resign, that the current result is exactly what would happen if the LBFO was not voted in.

So that is where disagreement is today.

It is unlikely to be resolved until the Bankruptcy Court hears the APA's request to stay the implementation of the contract imposed by AA management. It will be heard in early October. If the appeal is successful, the pilots and management will again go back to negotiations. If not, AA management will continue with their imposed contract and probably will work on getting court injunctions to stop this work action. The APA has carefully made it clear that they will not work with AA in implementing the contract imposed by AA. And to their detriment, have not done any effective public relations activity to tell the public or its members that they should be professional and ensuring their and AA's customers expectations are met.

I believe that at this point the UCC Labor sub-committee is really calling the shots, and until the AA/APA really listens to them no progress will happen.

Lets face it, all this has happened because the union, in particular, has been unwilling to realize that the previous contracts negotiated in the last 20 years are no longer viable. Sure they gave a lot in 2003, but a lot has happened since then, DL, NW, UA, US, all went bankrupt, two mega-mergers CO/UA, DL/NW were achieved. AA's management, on the other hand may have been reaching beyond what the APA considers competitive with OAL's. However, after 3 years of unsuccessful negotiations, both AA and APA should understand why they are where they are today. Both sides need to try to bring a solution to their current state. As neither the APA, nor AA seem to be willing to send out an "olive branch", I do not see any improvement to the current problem.

We will just have to sit on the sidelines and watch a great Airline Company go down, probably even to becoming one of the last great airlines to go down. Just like EA, NA, PA, TW and others......

[Edited 2012-09-24 23:19:13]
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting B377 (Reply 40):
The pilots had a great opportunity to vote in the LBFO, which would have given them a 6 year contract,

You're kidding, right? A 6 year concessionary contract? In an environment where other airlines that pay considerably more than them are printing money? Not a freaking chance.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3703
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:15 am

What with the bad blood between the sides, I'm wondering whether the pilots and management were far apart when management's final best offer was rejected, or was it a case of egos refusing to bridge the (smaller) distance and come to the other side in an attempt to show "who's boss?" (sorta kinda like the NFL referee strike that could end today for a ridiculously low amount for the league, but they want to show how tough they are).
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 42):
What with the bad blood between the sides, I'm wondering whether the pilots and management were far apart when management's final best offer was rejected, or was it a case of egos refusing to bridge the (smaller) distance and come to the other side in an attempt to show "who's boss?" (sorta kinda like the NFL referee strike that could end today for a ridiculously low amount for the league, but they want to show how tough they are).

They were extremely far apart. Mgmt wanted to take absolutely anything they could get, unfortunately the bk court rules exclusively in their favor- the NLRB is out of the equation when it comes to throwing the bankruptcy card (even though AA has more cash than most carriers). There was zero chance the pilots could agree..

AA had better come to reality soon (they may be making that way with the proposal for reengaging negotiations) or the airline will collapse completely.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
aa777lvr
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:42 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:02 am

First, let me say I'm heartbroken at what is happening at AA. I remember how proud I was to say I worked for American Airlines only a few years ago.

Having worked for both AA (15 years) and DL (ready reserve before I finally kicked the "airline habit") I think it's interesting to note how unions (or the lack of) seem to impact the success of airline. I realize there are many more factors (fleet, corporate customer base, hubs etc.) that play into the recipe of a successful airline. However, comparing working for the 2 companies the environment between management and unions at AA was generally caustic over my years there. On the other hand, I watched as the non-pilot unions at DL were creatively dismantled (sweetened early out packages to get rid of the heavily pro-union PMNW folks in favor of generally anti-union PMDL folks, etc.). The merger and integration of NW/DL I think was well executed. DL was not only a good company to work for (IMO), I know many people actually request to fly DL and are quite happy with them as a whole when given airline choices. (Fairly good customer service, customer service policies, upgrade procedure, in-flight amenities, etc.). It seems quite a bit of the UA/CO merger and integration in contrast is still held up by union contract issues. I realize, pro-union folks will say the UA/CO integration is due to poor management execution, but I can't help but feel much of their progress is held up by the unions and union red tape. Will the new UA (or any other airline hybrid including AA) be as successful as DL?

I think Mr. Anderson and the folks at DL realized early that the key to their success lies in re-writing the playbook in airline mergers and management/union operations. DL is an example of how once management's focus was shifted away from labor issues (unions, contracts) it's focus became building the strongest airline (network, fleet, satisfied customer base) and IMO, they have succeeded thus far. I can't help but feel a major strength of DL as an airline lies in the fact they can focus on running the details of the airline (routes, policies, fleet, FF programs, inflight technology, cabin enhancements, etc.) without being distracted by labor unions.

-AA777LVR
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting B377 (Reply 40):
The pilots had a great opportunity to vote in the LBFO, which would have given them a 6 year contract, at substantial improvement over the April 2012 TA.

Apparently 2/3 of the pilots did not have your wise counsel before they voted it down.  
 
xdlx
Posts: 692
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:07 pm

A 2yr contract amendable at the 18mo mark according to conditions.... sounds more like it!
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 46):
A 2yr contract amendable at the 18mo mark according to conditions.... sounds more like it!

Along with protocols built in to mirror a floating industry average.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
... and yet that "critically understaffed" operation was managing 75%+ on-time mere weeks ago. So besides the somewhat demoralizing and disincentivizing effect of layoffs for a few thousand mechanics, which I can see, what else could possibly explain the change?

The difference is now there is no contract so there is possibly no union protection. AMR can fire any pilot they want to with justification. Things like over looking a minor mx item to get flights out on time would still be acceptable now so long as not caught by the FAA. Well with increased Fed oversight the chances of getting caught are now much higher. Now there is possibly no protection from the union since there is no contract. I'd bet money if there was a mx fine from the FAA caused by a pilot being a "company man," AMR would fire him/her on the spot.

So what's the incentive for AA pilots to risk their careers and licenses for a company that shows nothing but disdain towards them?

If I was an AA pilot I'd be flying exactly by the book and if that results in delays, so be it. At least I'd be protected from the Feds and the company because I'm flying exactly how the FAA approved company manuals tell me to.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:33 pm

The latest word this morning is that AMR has asked APA to come back to the table and negotiate. It will probably be a new thread shortly.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos