doulasc
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Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:50 am

We all know that sometimes JetBlue has to make a refueling stop with their Airbus A320s on
Transcontinental flights from JFK-LAX/SFO and vice versa. Where do they usually land for
refueling. They will be taking delivery of some A321s next year and they will have winglets
but the planes are not NEO. Will their A321s be able to fly from JFK-LAX/SFO without
refueling stops sometimes. Are JetBlues A321s be all coach or will they have a business
or premium class which they have talked about adding in the past.
 
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cotparampguy
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):

They will be all economy, and I seriously doubt they ever do transcons. They will mainly go JFK/BOS to Florida and the Carribean.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting cotparampguy (Reply 1):

Won't they have the "extra legroom" seats like their current a320s and E190s have? They (the a320s) do transcons everyday.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:46 am

"They will be all economy, and I seriously doubt they ever do transcons. They will mainly go JFK/BOS to Florida and the Carribean."

Can I quote you on that in around 2 years?  
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:07 am

I could see them being put on the big runner routes. JFK to Florida in the Winter seems like there is some good options to reduce per seat costs easily.
 
airliner371
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:42 am

B6 has said before that they plan on using the A321 on routes such as JFK/BOS - Florida and Caribbean. If it is used on a transcon it is just a sub.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:48 am

  

Why is everyone so doubtful about the A321's ability to do transcons when it does many of them every single day?
 
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cotparampguy
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:21 am

I'm not saying it CAN'T do the transcons, i'm saying I doubt we put them on it. Everything that i've heard from the top has been that they want these planes on the East Coast and Carribean. They might get subbed in every once in awhile when a plane goes tech, but they won't be doing transcons right out of the gate. The NEOs, definately.

[Edited 2012-09-24 22:22:26]
 
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):

We all know that sometimes JetBlue has to make a refueling stop with their Airbus A320s on
Transcontinental flights from JFK-LAX/SFO and vice versa. Where do they usually land for
refueling.

I think that happens mostly in the winter. I have stopped twice in DEN during BOS-OAK flights.
 
icebird757
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:03 am

The A321's will be able to do transcons. Winglets and extra fuel tanks although they will primarily be used on the Northeast to Florida routes and maybe to Puerto Rico.
LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
 
jmc1975
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:38 am

US does DCA-PHX on a 183 or 187-passenger A321 from the 6800' DCA runway. I hear they never take weight restrictions in that. Sounds suspect....
.......
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:20 pm

"B6 has said before that they plan on using the A321 on routes such as JFK/BOS - Florida and Caribbean. If it is used on a transcon it is just a sub."

Really? Where did they say that? Or is it just rumor taking on a life of its own?
 
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enilria
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
They will be all economy, and I seriously doubt they ever do transcons. They will mainly go JFK/BOS to Florida and the Carribean.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
Why is everyone so doubtful about the A321's ability to do transcons when it does many of them every single day?
Quoting icebird757 (Reply 9):
The A321's will be able to do transcons. Winglets and extra fuel tanks although they will primarily be used on the Northeast to Florida routes and maybe to Puerto Rico.

Even with the enhancements they will only have the range of today's A320s which B6 has put in a low density seating config in order to fly transcon. I've heard they have considered a split configuration for the A320s to do transcon with a sub-fleet. I would not expect the A321 to be on any non-stop transcons except perhaps in seasonal periods of reduced jetstream velocity.
 
werdywerd
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting cotparampguy (Reply 1):

They will be all economy,

Don't be too sure about that  
 
spiritair97
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):

It was included in the announcment of the big Aorbud order a while back.
 
UALWN
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 12):
Even with the enhancements they will only have the range of today's A320s which B6 has put in a low density seating config in order to fly transcon.

Yet US's current A321s fly every day from PHL to SFO without problems in a not-particularly low density configuration...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 14):
It was included in the announcment of the big Aorbud order a while back.

Things change and I suspect this will too
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):
US does DCA-PHX on a 183 or 187-passenger A321 from the 6800' DCA runway.

That route has been 757s since before the USAir-AmericaWest merger. I watched it push back at gate 42 last Saturday (My flight -- 3183 -- was the next flight at that gate).

Now I'm not saying it's never scheduled as a 321, since there were 321s at other C concourse gates.

[Edited 2012-09-25 10:52:11]
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 14):
the announcment of the big Aorbud order

You mean Airbus, right?
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):
from the 6800' DCA runway

The runway was extended last year to 7169 feet.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):
DCA-PHX
DCA-PHX is 3,184 km, nowhere near the max range of the A321. PHL-SFO is the longest A321 flight in operation today, coming in at 4,058km.

Just to make it clear, an A321 at MTOW in ISA conditions needs 8,400 ft of runway for takeoff.

btw, longest A320 flight belongs to SU, from ULN to SVO, 4,649km. 6h40 min.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-09-25 11:11:31]
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cotparampguy
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 13):

I haven't heard anything about a first, or business product. Of course we will have Even more space seating on the aircraft, but that's still econ to me.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 18):

Yeah, sorry I still have the original iPad and the keyboard is starting to malfunction :S

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 19):

Technically, but only 6800 of the 7169 feet are availible for takeoff.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):

Actually AWE43 is operated by the a321, AWE22 is op. by the 752, and AWE457 is operated by the a320.

All of these are on a daily basis. So yes, you are right, but it hasn't been completely 757 for a while.
 
werdywerd
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting cotparampguy (Reply 21):

I haven't heard anything about a first, or business product.

Perhaps you will hear more as time goes on   You never know.

And I'll leave it at that lol.
 
airbazar
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 15):
Yet US's current A321s fly every day from PHL to SFO without problems in a not-particularly low density configuration...

And PHL-LAX, but you must have missed the memo. The A321 uses a catapult just to get off the ground and it faces a strong tailwind in both directions. It's the only way it can fly transcon non-stop.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
it faces a strong tailwind in both directions

I'd like to be there when that happens.  Wink

Also, PHL's longest runway is 10,506 ft at 36 feet in elevation. On what grounds would a catapult be needed?

[Edited 2012-09-25 13:18:21]
 
xaapb
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 8):
I think that happens mostly in the winter. I have stopped twice in DEN during BOS-OAK flights.

I'm curious dose the passengers know in advance they will have to land in DEN, or at sometime during the flight the crew announces that they will have to make a tech stop in DEN to refuel??

How much time aprox. does a tech stop takes?

Greetings.
Jorge Meneses
 
richierich
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):

"B6 has said before that they plan on using the A321 on routes such as JFK/BOS - Florida and Caribbean. If it is used on a transcon it is just a sub."

Really? Where did they say that? Or is it just rumor taking on a life of its own?

I agree... people just interject their own ideas as if fact! I do it all the time, ha!  
Quoting werdywerd (Reply 23):
Perhaps you will hear more as time goes on You never know.

And I'll leave it at that lol.

Tease!
But I think it is safe to guess that maybe there is more to just using the A321s than just for short-haul, limited slots airports?
None shall pass!!!!
 
futureatp
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:32 pm

One thing to consider when comparing the DCA-PHX, or any east coast route to PHX vs. the West Coast is IFR conditions. If the California destination is IFR, extra fuel must be carried for a planned alternate. Very rarely do airlines have to plan IFR for PHX. I have seen said Jetblue diverted flights in PHX with more than enough fuel to have made it to the their destination. The fuel load however wasn't enough to meet their requirement for the IFR alternate.

typical A320 block in fuel at PHX when VFR conditions existed (these are numbers I have actually seen as I was the one that opened the panel): 4500lbs to 6000lbs. When PHX was IFR, that number could be as high as 14,000lbs to 16,000lbs but around 9,000lbs-11,000lbs would be typical.

I haven't seen numbers in a while but that A321 leaving DCA bound for PHX, I would highly doubt is ever even close to being topped off full of fuel. On an average day I bet it only needs around 4,000lbs more than the east bound leg.
 
BOStonsox
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:54 pm

Ok, so from what I've read on other threads in the past:

-The A320s that B6 use occasionally make tech stops for refueling.
-The A321 has a shorter range than the A320.
-Some airline (I believe it was US) has been working with Airbus so that they can extend the range of the A321 to that of the B757 (which is capable of TATL flights), making it the perfect replacement for that type.
- Ergo, from what I understand, the A321 may have the legs to fly transcons, but at least initially they will need the ocassional pit stop until their range is increased.

Am I right about this?
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N766UA
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 18):
You mean Airbus, right?

I think he means air bud, like the golden retriever.
This Website Censors Me
 
strandedinbgm
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:40 am

Cranky Flyer quotes an internal memo from Dave Barger where he states that the 321 "can do really well flying between the Northeast/South US and Latin/Caribbean markets."

He also mentions the transcon opportunities “in the potential application of the 321 on some of our heavy transcon markets such as JFK-LAX, JFK – San Francisco.”

http://crankyflier.com/2011/06/23/je...orders-new-airplanes-focuses-east/
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UALWN
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 29):
Am I right about this?

No. US's A321s have been operating PHL-SFO and PHL-LAX for years without trouble.
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womenbeshoppin
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 32):
No. US's A321s have been operating PHL-SFO and PHL-LAX for years without trouble.

Ive said it in a previous forum and I will say it again. I have worked countless PHL-SFO PHL-LAX 321's. It was very very common for those planes to go out with 9000-10000 lbs of cargo and bags. Dont believe me, go to PHL watch gates B11, B5, C24 and C30. Watch all the mail, cargo and bags that come off and go back on those planes. You will agree, they are not taking weight hits.

[Edited 2012-09-25 18:19:33]
 
phlwok
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 32):
No. US's A321s have been operating PHL-SFO and PHL-LAX for years without trouble.

And this has come up in many threads in the past month. I don't know why folks think the 321 can't do these routes, since they've been doing so for at least a decade now. They will take weight penalties in certain situations, but they're not falling out of the sky short on fuel in the Nevada or Arizona deserts, and newer 321 variants will likely only perform better.

See:
Will AA's A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO? (by mozart Sep 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)
US A321 Performance (by Xcltflyboy Sep 9 2012 in Civil Aviation)

I would hope that we can put this apparent A.net rumor, which was never an issue with the A321-200s used by US, AC, NK and soon AA and B6 in North America, and believed by too many for reasons that aren't clear, behind us. But I should probably know better ...
 
astuteman
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 34):
I don't know why folks think the 321 can't do these routes,

Because it is an A-net "fact", like this one...

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 29):
The A321 has a shorter range than the A320.

nominal range of an A320 with CFM-56 5B engines and no sharklets.... 3 050 Nm
at 75.5t TOW and 150 pax

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...data/AC/Airbus-AC-A320-Jun2012.pdf

(page 178)

nominal range of an A321 with CFM-56 5B engines and no sharklets.... er, 3 050 Nm
at 89t TOW and 185 pax

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...data/AC/Airbus-AC-A321-Jun2012.pdf
(page 144)

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
Just to make it clear, an A321 at MTOW in ISA conditions needs 8,400 ft of runway for takeoff.

From the same A321 ACAP, page 148....
An A321 at 93t MTOW (205k lb) needs 8 000ft of runway in ISA conditions..

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 22):
Technically, but only 6800 of the 7169 feet are availible for takeoff.

6 800ft begets a takeoff weight of about 194k lb (c. 88t)

If I understand correctly from the OP, the A321's being delivered will be fitted with sharklets, in which case they will better every single one of the above "nominal" stats by a large margin

Rgds
 
ASA
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting xaapb (Reply 26):
I'm curious dose the passengers know in advance they will have to land in DEN, or at sometime during the flight the crew announces that they will have to make a tech stop in DEN to refuel??

How much time aprox. does a tech stop takes?

Greetings.

Greetings to you too ...  

Both times, the pilot informed us over midwest that we'll have to stop in DEN ... approximately an hour before landing there, if I remember right. We were not informed prior to the flight. It took us about 35-40 minutes to refuel.

But I had the misfortune of being diverted to Richmond, VA (RIC) once due to weather ... and it took us 2.5 hours!!! That was because 5 planes were diverted there at the same time (due to bad weather in IAD) and they were under-equipped to handle such a situation.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 36):
But I had the misfortune of being diverted to Richmond, VA (RIC) once due to weather ... and it took us 2.5 hours!!! That was because 5 planes were diverted there at the same time (due to bad weather in IAD) and they were under-equipped to handle such a situation.

I actually was passing RIC driving from SC to NY in April and there was bad weather at IAD, too. There were about 15 planes diverted to RIC in the 15 minute period that I was in the area, with many more on their way. Granted, they were mostly RJs, but there were a few 757s satled in there, so I can only imagine the madness that incurred that night.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:56 am

Like most here said, the A321's will be assigned primarily between JFK/BOS and Florida destinations given the large number of Northeasterners who vacation in Florida during the winter or have relatives who live in Florida nowadays.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting futureatp (Reply 28):

Right. The 321 can hold over 52,000lbs of fuel, IIRC, with the ACTs installed. In DCAs case, the that probably means some small weight restrictions on that 6800' runway for transcons, but likely not much. For B6, operating to California from JFK, I'm with astuteman on this one. I don't even know why it's being discussed. The Plane's obviously capable for that mission.
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BOStonsox
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:05 am

Ok, looks like the info I had seen elsewhere was outdated, initially the A321's range was shorter than the A320's. This was because the A321-100 wasn't given larger fuel tanks. The A321-200 was.

As I said above, I've heard that somebody was talking to Airbus about extending the range to TATL capability so it could replace the B757. If this happens, this a.net rumor can finally be put to bed.
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mingocr83
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):

Those are the A321 Enhanced, new A321s on the US Fleet..
A380, A321, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800WL, 737-700WL, E190
 
wn676
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
That route has been 757s since before the USAir-AmericaWest merger. I watched it push back at gate 42 last Saturday (My flight -- 3183 -- was the next flight at that gate).

There are times periodically throughout the year when they do not operate 757s between PHX and DCA. This year, they've operated them from about mid-April until the end of May, and just recently brought them back at the beginning of September. A320s and A319s are the more prevalent types these days.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):
I hear they never take weight restrictions in that. Sounds suspect....

The westbound flights are usually capped right at capacity and just enough cargo weight for all the bags. I have seen them restrict the flight to a lower pax count, but it isn't very often...although I'm sure that will change as the year comes to an end.

The addition of four extra seats to these aircraft will basically mean nothing for this route since it's nearly a given that they'll always be blocked off.
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wn676
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RE: Will JetBlue A321 Have The Legs To Fly JFK-LAX/SFO

Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting mingocr83 (Reply 41):
Those are the A321 Enhanced, new A321s on the US Fleet..

Which have essentially the same specs as the rest of the aircraft in the fleet. Operationally they aren't that different.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.