cessna2
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FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:04 am

 
flyfree727
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:08 am

No one cares because it's not AA..

AA ORD
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:10 am

People just get angrier and angrier these days... However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.
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Transpac787
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting rduddji (Reply 2):
However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.

But is acceptable for passengers??  
 
Italianflyer
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:18 pm

As I said in my accidental dupe post.....I'm waiting for the media to start "are airline employees at the breaking point" sensationalism. Anyone care to make a wager?  
 
Lostmoon744
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):

Quoting rduddji (Reply 2):
However, this behavior is unacceptable for crew.

But is acceptable for passengers??  

Nope. However, passengers aren't the professionals here. What the FAs did was completely unacceptable and unprofessional.

[Edited 2012-09-27 13:41:12]
 
MCOflyer
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:27 pm

It is sad these days when people can not get along. This argument probably cost UA thousands of dollars with rebooking and accomodating passengers to other flights.

KH
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ASFlyer
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm waiting for the media to start "are airline employees at the breaking point" sensationalism. Anyone care to make a wager?

I'm not in any way excusing this kind of poor behavior. It's inexcusable for a FA to behave in such a way that the entire airplane has to land in a city other than the destination city because of their behavior. That said, I'd be interested in knowing the full story but we probably never will. It sounds like the Pilot made a bit of a knee jerk reaction in diverting an entire airplane full of people in this case. It's clear these two didn't get along but what made the pilot think that the situation was dire enough to cause a diversion? Not blaming the pilot - just asking the question.

In regards to your statement above, I don't think that's too far off base. It's not a stretch to imagine Flight Attendants reaching "the breaking point". As we become more socially engaged, people are losing the ability to interact well with others. People aren't, in general, very pleasant towards others anymore. It's not uncommon to be completely and 100S% ignored by a passenger during boarding. As people come on I always smile and say hello - about 5 times out of 10 people ignore me in favor of the text or phone call they are making or the Facebook page they are completely immersed in. Pleasantries have become a thing of the past - just a casual hello or smile. Going through the cabin to offer beverages is a real test of ones patience and tolerance. We are ignored almost completely a good deal of the time as people are completely immersed in their electronics... until, of course, you pass them, at which time they become visibly and verbally irritated. Please and thank you is almost non existent. As people deplane their garbage is left strewn about their seating area. Nobody pays any attention to any of the rules and requests of the flight crew. It's all about numero uno. Beyond themselves, nobody really cares about anything else. Too much of that for too long could easily push one to their breaking point.
 
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Interestingly enough...people pay more attention to the roller coaster operator. "Stay seated with your hands inside the ride until the ride comes to a complete stop." Or the "magic" white line on a bus: "Federal law prohibits operation of this vehicle while passengers are standing forward of the white line." Hmmmm...
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Ron88888888
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting B727FA (Reply 8):

Interestingly enough...people pay more attention to the roller coaster operator. "Stay seated with your hands inside the ride until the ride comes to a complete stop." Or the "magic" white line on a bus: "Federal law prohibits operation of this vehicle while passengers are standing forward of the white line." Hmmmm...

Well, maybe an unfair comparison. IMO, the difference is that people don't much resent roller coaster operators. At least not as much as flight attendants. It is quite often, maybe not the majority of the time, but often enough, that an FA talks down to me, is short with me, or somehow treats me with disrespect, just during the course of carrying out their normal flight duties. (I am mainly commenting on mainline US airlines, though this is not limited to the US). I hate, resent, being treated like that and even if it doesn't happen all the time, I avoid flying those carriers when I can, because there are carriers where this happens much less often. It's just unnecessary bull. Many of us have such stories, I am sure.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):
As we become more socially engaged, people are losing the ability to interact well with others. People aren't, in general, very pleasant towards others anymore. It's not uncommon to be completely and 100S% ignored by a passenger during boarding. As people come on I always smile and say hello - about 5 times out of 10 people ignore me in favor of the text or phone call they are making or the Facebook page they are completely immersed in. Pleasantries have become a thing of the past - just a casual hello or smile.


I would respectfully disagree on extrapolating to societal trends in the US just based on what happens on a plane. But, when it comes to the flight cabin, I think you're right, people are generally much more reserved than their everyday lives. Branching off of what I stated above, I think it's, in large part, due to expectations that the cabin on mainline US carrier can often be a hostile place. That can be due to a snarky FA or an unfriendly seat mate, though in my experience if a bad experience occurs, it's less frequently due to a bad seat mate.

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:38:24]

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:39:34]

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:40:14]
 
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:18 am

Quoting Ron88888888 (Reply 9):
I would respectfully disagree on extrapolating to societal trends in the US just based on what happens on a plane. But, when it comes to the flight cabin, I think you're right, people are generally much more reserved than their everyday lives. Branching off of what I stated above, I think it's, in large part, due to expectations that the cabin on mainline US carrier can often be a hostile place. That can be due to a snarky FA or an unfriendly seat mate, though in my experience if a bad experience occurs, it's less frequently due to a bad seat mate.

I think the inside of an airplane is a great place to extrapolate on societal trends. But even if you look outside of the airplane cabin, people in general have become more rude, pushy, impatient, demanding and just overall unpleasant. You can't really be serious if you think that our countries addiction to social media and texting one another as opposed to face to face or even voice interactions doesn't have an effect on how we treat each other. Trying to blame it on the flight crews is a huge stretch. The Flight Attendant position is a lot different than it was back in the 60's and 70's. Flight Attendants in the 60's and 70's were working on half full planes full of well dressed, generally more affluent, polite passengers. It was easy to be nice to people that treated you with common decency. People didn't use to wear tank tops and short shorts on airplanes and immediately put their feet up on the wall (or tray table or seat in front of them) when they sat down. I see people changing their babies on the tray tables these days, cutting their toe nails in their seat, throwing their garbage on the floors. You can say what you like but the traveling public is a whole lot different then it was 30-40 years ago.
 
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 10):
Flight Attendants in the 60's and 70's were working on half full planes full of well dressed, generally more affluent, polite passengers.

  

For giggles, I was reading a copy of an old Eastern Air Lines annual report from 1985, a year in which they made a profit. Know what their breakeven load factor was at that point? Try 61% - unreal by today's standards, when most breakeven load factors are 10 to 15 percentage points north of that or more, depending on the carrier.

While low fares have enabled far more people to travel and enabled carriers to grow, it also means margins are razor-thin and you need to pack every single flight to the gills to stay profitable and remain in business.
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Ron88888888
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 10):
I think the inside of an airplane is a great place to extrapolate on societal trends. But even if you look outside of the airplane cabin, people in general have become more rude, pushy, impatient, demanding and just overall unpleasant. You can't really be serious if you think that our countries addiction to social media and texting one another as opposed to face to face or even voice interactions doesn't have an effect on how we treat each other.

I don't really see how it's so easy to extrapolate to broader society in America, as you do. The airplane environment is a very unique environment. For much of America, most days do not consist of arriving hours before departure and then sitting 2 inches away from two strangers in a packed metal tube of 50-400 plus strangers and also having to stay seated to comply with federal regulations and also having to endure turbulence and also having to forgo cigarettes and also having to endure a mal-tempered gate agent, FA or fellow passenger and also undergoing whole body imaging that can see under your clothes.

The airport/airplane environment is unique. In fact, it is explicitly designed to be different from (most people's) normal day-to-day life due to the dangers of terrorism and aviation generally (and I'm not arguing it shouldn't be). Most Americans don't live in such an environment, day to day. I don't see how you can categorically extrapolate your experiences in that specialized environment to generalize about American society writ large.

[Edited 2012-09-28 02:23:17]
 
PanHAM
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:15 am

The Captain is the boss on that flight, he has the authority to straighten out and reprimand the flight attendants and he should have used that authoroty. If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.


Returning to RDU with all the consequences for the passengers and company was not the optimal decision.
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Transpac787
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.

Or, maybe, there were irreconcilable difference that were obviously beyond his control.  

Though, I'm dying to know what you think should have been done. Considering pilots are no longer supposed to leave the cockpit, at any time, for altercations in the cabin. And for the instances when they *actually* need to leave the cockpit, an FA is supposed to take their place up there the entire time they are gone. If all your FA's are having a fight in the cabin - what, exactly, do you propose he do??
 
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
If he did try that and was not successful his skills in labor relations should get an update.

Not his job. That's why we have inflight supervisors. They deal with that crap, not the captain. The captain can, however, request the inflight supervisor to intervene though. I think that's what happened. Follow the chain of command.
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PanHAM
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Not his job. That's why we have inflight supervisors.

Oh well, and who's the boss of the inflight supervisors? In my book, the captain is always the ultimate authority and cannot hide behind a supervisor. If he cannot leave the cockpit he can call the supervisor to his office.

This sound much like management by Schettino, and how dumb unflexible regulations can be.

.

[Edited 2012-09-28 06:08:08]
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lucky777
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 14):
And for the instances when they *actually* need to leave the cockpit, an FA is supposed to take their place up there the entire time they are gone.

I don't recall ever seeing a flight attendand actually "take their place" in the cockpit when a pilot leaves. I do see flight attendants blocking the aisle to the restroom when the pilot comes out to use the facilities but i've yet to see one actually take the place of the flight crew while they were doing their business in the restroom.
 
cessna2
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 17):
I don't recall ever seeing a flight attendand actually "take their place" in the cockpit when a pilot leaves. I do see flight attendants blocking the aisle to the restroom when the pilot comes out to use the facilities but i've yet to see one actually take the place of the flight crew while they were doing their business in the restroom.

I've seen a flight attendant go in as one of the pilots came out and i've also seen the FA block the front galley with the cart and remain outside. I don't know what the policies are regarding when they are to be in the cockpit or not. Can anyone shed light on this?
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:11 pm

Fire them both............
 
DualQual
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):

Returning to RDU with all the consequences for the passengers and company was not the optimal decision.

You were on board the flight and have all the facts to the case? If you've got two FA's (or anyone for that matter) going at each other they are not likely to listen to reason and calm down. If they do, great, continue on. If not, flight safety is now in question because two people on the same team may not have the ability to work together. That can put lives in danger. Perhaps the other FA's were not comfortable continuing the flight with the two arguing FA's. That is enough reason to return and get them replaced.

By it's nature, returning is not the optimal decision, but it may very well have been the BEST decision.
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PanHAM
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 20):
You were on board the flight and have all the facts to the case? If you've got two FA's

if you want to comment me, take the full line please. Don't pick just one sentence. If a captain on a flight or on a ship cannot handle such situation he is not fit to be a captain. That's my opinion, you may have a different one, but you haven't been on that flight as well, so what you are saying are assumptions.

But I say that a captain is the boss and a boss must be able to straighten such situations out. Unless his name is Schettino.
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ABQopsHP
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:04 pm

I looked back at Flightaware.com and saw that 1214 was a -900. s/CO A/C. If Im not mistaking the F/A crews are not mixed yet, therefore this was a s/CO crew correct? It is true of every work place, that not all employees will get along, Ive seen it before where 2 cabin crew members did not get along, and one would confide in me, they would be glad when the 4 day trip was over. Also it does not matter what carrier it is either. I saw a nasty tiff at DAL (Love field) between 2 flight attendants, then the Capt, then the gate Supervisor. Resulting in a 20 min delay to ABQ. I was quite surprised when that happened, since WN puts on the happy camper face a good part of the time. But alas it does happen. You not always get along with everyone one. However crew members are in a unique situation where as they are responsible for safety. Thus they need to put differences aside, or request a line change when they get back to their domicile.

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CONTACREW
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 22):
I looked back at Flightaware.com and saw that 1214 was a -900. s/CO A/C. If Im not mistaking the F/A crews are not mixed yet, therefore this was a s/CO crew correct? It is true of every work place, that not all employees will get along, Ive seen it before where 2 cabin crew members did not get along, and one would confide in me, they would be glad when the 4 day trip was over. Also it does not matter what carrier it is either. I saw a nasty tiff at DAL (Love field) between 2 flight attendants, then the Capt, then the gate Supervisor. Resulting in a 20 min delay to ABQ. I was quite surprised when that happened, since WN puts on the happy camper face a good part of the time. But alas it does happen. You not always get along with everyone one. However crew members are in a unique situation where as they are responsible for safety. Thus they need to put differences aside, or request a line change when they get back to their domicile.

Yes this was an sCO crew.
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ASFlyer
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 18):
I've seen a flight attendant go in as one of the pilots came out and i've also seen the FA block the front galley with the cart and remain outside. I don't know what the policies are regarding when they are to be in the cockpit or not. Can anyone shed light on this?

I know it sounds silly but someone who works for an airline shouldn't shed light on this here on this forum. As trivial as it seems, that's classified security information. That to say, you probably won't get a first hand answer to that here - or you shouldn't anyway... even if you can sit in your seat and watch the whole thing play out in front of you.
 
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Oh well, and who's the boss of the inflight supervisors? In my book, the captain is always the ultimate authority and cannot hide behind a supervisor. If he cannot leave the cockpit he can call the supervisor to his office.

This sound much like management by Schettino, and how dumb unflexible regulations can be.

The Pilots are the authority on board the airplanes but they don't have any say as to who is hired/fired or disciplined. The only thing they can do is refuse to fly with a particular crew member and, generally speaking, that crew member should be replaced, though I have seen one incident where a Pilot was over ruled by his superiors on the ground. I don't know the particulars outside of it being a personality conflict that he was not free of responsibility for himself. He was not allowed to have this particular Flight Attendant removed.
 
DualQual
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
If a captain on a flight or on a ship cannot handle such situation he is not fit to be a captain. That's my opinion, you may have a different one, but you haven't been on that flight as well, so what you are saying are assumptions.

Again, just because a Captain couldn't calm down two fighting individuals does not make them unfit to be a Captain. Continuing a flight with a known problem that threatens the safe conduct of the flight would be unfit.
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b727fa
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting Ron88888888 (Reply 9):
Well, maybe an unfair comparison. IMO, the difference is that people don't much resent roller coaster operators. At least not as much as flight attendants.

Oh lord, the poor abused passenger again. And you *resent* FA's? Is the attitude you come on with?

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 17):
I don't recall ever seeing a flight attendand actually "take their place" in the cockpit when a pilot leaves.

Then you're not paying attention. Or, the crew is performing the action properly; that you DON'T see every security procedure in place. There is a process that involves blocking: sometimes; sometimes with a cart, sometimes without. The procedure isn't always the same. But I assure you, there are always at least 2 crew on the FD on US flights at all times.
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AirframeAS
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
who's the boss of the inflight supervisors?

Station Manager.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
If he cannot leave the cockpit he can call the supervisor to his office.

Looks like you're on the right track here....

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 18):
Can anyone shed light on this?

Without compromising security procedures, no. Sorry.

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 22):
therefore this was a s/CO crew correct?

Correct.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
If a captain on a flight or on a ship cannot handle such situation he is not fit to be a captain.

I disagree a thousand percent!!!
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):who's the boss of the inflight supervisors?
Station Manager.

  

Inflight supervisors report to Managers or Directors in inflight, not individual station managers - the station manager is who the CSAs at that station report to.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):

Then what do you do if there is no inflight manager or supervisor in an outstation?!
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B777LRF
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:06 pm

Lots of talk here about the behaviour of the crew members. Having read the linked article, one is left to wonder what people are on about. The article does not provide any kind of specifics at all, thus it is pretty hard to even gauge, and much less place judgement on, the case in hand.

What the exact "behaviour" of the crew was is unknown to most, if not all, here, and as a fellow aviation professional I'd appreciate if we let the jury talk before we book an executioner. Now I'm not blind to the fact that it should, under normal circumstances, take a whole lot of cabin crew disagreement to force a diversion. But in this age of political correctness, coupled with the fact this did take place in the US, a mere sparrow's fart in the wrong direction seems to be enough.
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):
s we become more socially engaged, people are losing the ability to interact well with others.

I think you meant "as people are becoming more socially disengaged.."

I think part of it is the excessive use of Smartphones, etc. It seems anytime you get a group of people together they aren't talking to each other. They just have their faces buried in their electronics. Text messages are just pure information, no emotions attached at all. What kind of social graces does this practice evolve into?

My niece once had a sleep over when she was in high school for some of her girlfriends. The room was very quiet. My sister went up to look to see what was going on. She opened the door to the room and all the girls had their heads buried in their smartphones. She asked who they were texting and her daughter replied "each other". My sister asked "why don't you just talk to each other" Her daughters answer "We don't want to have to DEAL with each other." An ah-ha moment.

My guess is that over time we will be seeing more incidents like the one in this thread as more and more people lose the art of social graces.
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PHX787
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:06 am

Looks like it was a petty argument. The lack of professionalism with these people is astounding these days, but again, they probably have a LOT of stress built up.
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JetAmericaS80
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RE: FA Argument Forces UA Flight To Return To RDU

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):

Inflight supervisors report to Managers or Directors in inflight, not individual station managers - the station manager is who the CSAs at that station report to.

Bingo.   

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 30):
Then what do you do if there is no inflight manager or supervisor in an outstation?!

Generally speaking, from the airlines I have worked for, a situation like this would call for the removal of the crews from the trip, having them deadhead back to base, and met by a big team of inflight management to sort through the issue and dispense swift and appropriate corrective action. There is absolutely nothing the individual station management can do other than make a record of what occurred and forward it to inflight. No one station manager (at least at the airlines I have worked for) can discipline flight attendants, as they belong to another work group, involve a different union (usually), and have different work rules and procedures. Now what you may have been thinking of is a "Base Manager", but that is very different from a "Station Manager." Base managers are inflight management who manage a flight attendant domicile while a station manager is someone who manages the ground support (above/below wing).

Hope that helps!

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