klwright69
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A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:24 pm

The other day I had pleasant return to Saudi Arabia from Denver, on DL then connecting onto Saudia.

On DEN-JFK, I sat by a DL 767-400 copilot who would talk endlessly about DL and the industry. Most of his insights are supported by statements made in this forum. But I heard a few new things. For what it's worth, here are some of his observations. Some things I had learned from this forum, he was not even aware of. He did not know DL's IST flight was not going to operate over the winter. I told him Abuja was suspended by DL over security concerns and he was not aware of this either. He thought he had seen Abuja reappear on next month's bid, so maybe it's returning. Who knows..He looked at the DL inflight magazine and was intrigued to see Abuja gone.

He said some of the following things: Over the years, DL has had over 20 pilots fall ill from malaria flying trips to Africa, particularly Accra and Dakar. He does not know about the flight attendants. 3 DL pilots did die from the disease as a direct result from malarial infection acquired on layovers. One died 7 days after returning from a trip, he even told me his name. Another one of the pilots had HIV and therefore already had a compromised system, the malaria pushed him over the edge. In the beginning the "good ole boys in ATL" (his words) did not know about the challenges serving Africa. Since that time, things did improve. Crew are briefed on health risks laying over in Africa, and Deet mosquito repellent is provided if requested. He commented on the armed guards escorting crews in Lagos, and the crew shuttle not even stopping for red lights traveling from the airport to the hotel. None of this is surprising. DL has done well in Africa due to the absence of strong local international carriers for one thing. He does not doubt UA will do well with IAH-LOS. The 787 will help to build awareness for them also. He was shocked when I told him UA dropped IAD-ACC. He said landing at airports in Africa is a lot of work for the crew. Lots of time on the radio during the approach. DL does very well in Africa he added. He said he does not do Africa anymore since he has been there and done that already.

No US carriers fly nonstop to MNL since Philippine Airlines has such low costs. US carriers will likely never fly to the Philippines nonstop since they can't compete due to the low costs of the national carrier.

DL is trying to upgrade flights from ATL to Brazil with the 747. But Brazil aviation authority is balking. DL has invested in GOL.

DL dropped Trinidad and Tobago due to the government protectionism of the local airline (Aero Caribe?). This is why you will never see B6 serving Trinidad and Tobago from JFK. DL did well there he added.

F9 is indeed dying. Southwest wants concourse A at DEN. F9 has approached DL as a potential savior and was turned down. DEN airport does not care about F9 anymore, and does not see a future for them at DEN. F9's cost structure at DEN is a problem. F9 is worth more dead that alive.

He talked about DL's nonstop service from JFK to India. He said that contrary to the consensus on a.net, DL did not fail on JFK-India due to poor performance. There is a reason UA rakes it in on EWR-India flights as the only US carrier. He could not comment on why AA dropped ORD-DEL. DL nonstops from JFK to India were shockingly lucrative, especially with cargo.

The underlying authority for DL's India JFK flights was from Pan Am. Now the situation was such where DL was slaughtering Jet Airways from JFK to India. India said, okay, Pan Am still owed a staggering amount of money from unpaid bills while they were still flying there. By this time with interest and penalties, this debt was enormous. India told DL to pay up. DL decided not to pay and drop the route. DL was told they could reapply for their own new authority from JFK to India. DL has reapplied multiple times, and India aviation authority only turns them down. DL would love to serve JFK India again. Now only UA enjoys the spoils. DL serves India from AMS. But that is NW's authority, unrelated to the issue with JFK.

We talked about the problems at AA, and the use of RJ's, and so on. But the above points were what I remembered the most as I was already exhausted before the flight. Sorry that's it.

Any comments?
 
kaitak
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:59 pm

Thanks for sharing this; it's amazing the information we can glean from talking to people "on the inside". I often think some of us would make good candidates for govt agents!

Fascinating information - and sad too; I wonder if DL was sufficiently aware of conditions in Africa and the extent to which malaria and other diseases are prevelant. I wonder if they could have worked with their Skyteam partners, DL and AF, as they (particularly AF) have extensive networks in Africa; how do they protect their crews? I can only imagine what the DL pilots' union must think about this! To lose four (at least) to malaria is very serious. I wonder if the CDC provide any assistance/immunisation advice to crews flying to Africa. I was actually surprised that CO announced that IAH-LOS would be among their first routes; I can't help wondering if there were a few CO crews with seniority to bid for the 787s who thought to themselves, "you know, I'll just stick with the 757 for a bit and wait for the 777!"

Sad to hear about Frontier, but not really surprised to see that DL wasn't interested; DEN will be WN territory soon enough.

Interesting to hear about the Indian situation as well; sad about the loss of the n/s flights, but clearly DL can't be expected to pay PA's debts.
 
azjubilee
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:06 pm

Interesting... I had heard about many of the crews contracting malaria but I hadn't heard of anyone dying!

His observations are wrong regarding MNL, however. HA flies 4 weekly flights NONstop from HNL to MNL and have apparently been quite successful in competing with PAL over the years. In fact, in November the flight will have added capacity and amenities when the 330 starts flying the route.
 
cokepopper
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
He said some of the following things: Over the years, DL has had over 20 pilots fall ill from malaria flying trips to Africa, particularly Accra and Dakar. He does not know about the flight attendants. 3 DL pilots did die from the disease as a direct result from malarial infection acquired on layovers. One died 7 days after returning from a trip, he even told me his name. Another one of the pilots had HIV and therefore already had a compromised system, the malaria pushed him over the edge

True

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
He did not know DL's IST flight was not going to operate over the winter. I told him Abuja was suspended by DL over security concerns and he was not aware of this either.

No surprise he didn't know

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
The underlying authority for DL's India JFK flights was from Pan Am. Now the situation was such where DL was slaughtering Jet Airways from JFK to India. India said, okay, Pan Am still owed a staggering amount of money from unpaid bills while they were still flying there. By this time with interest and penalties, this debt was enormous. India told DL to pay up. DL decided not to pay and drop the route. DL was told they could reapply for their own new authority from JFK to India. DL has reapplied multiple times, and India aviation authority only turns them down. DL would love to serve JFK India again. Now only UA enjoys the spoils. DL serves India from AMS. But that is NW's authority, unrelated to the issue with JFK.

This doesn't sound right. If the Indian govt want Delta to pay up
then why do we continue to operate AMS-BOM flights?
I am surprised how little many Pilots know about their company in regards to routes and equipment. The rest
seen to make $h _t up lol..]
 
OOer
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:48 pm

Malaria has been a problem in Africa. For a couple of years Delta tried to cover it up, as a matter of fact there was even a memo sent to Delta from OSHA in regards to failure to report these cases in a timely manner.

Unfortunately it seems that the people down in ATL were unaware of many of the issues with Africa and other troubled regions. As a matter of fact Delta required crew members to get a yellow fever shot to go to Jordan and it wasn't until a heated exchange between ATL and an actual flight attendant that the requirement was dropped. Delta considered Jordan to be part of "Africa".

As the pilot said, things have gotten better. You can put up all the warnings you want about malaria but the only way to not expose yourself to that risk is by simply not going to those destinations.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:37 pm

On his India theory, it isn't accurate. To listen to DL and ALPA, and I'm more faimiliar with the MEC side, (and if anyone needed a sleep aid and followed the ExIm Boeing financing debate) the reason DL bailed on JFK-BOM was related to their inability to compete with Air India's fares. They were getting killed on the route. Here is a good article: http://articles.economictimes.indiat...rs-loan-guarantee-foreign-airlines
 
aeroblogger
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
The underlying authority for DL's India JFK flights was from Pan Am. Now the situation was such where DL was slaughtering Jet Airways from JFK to India. India said, okay, Pan Am still owed a staggering amount of money from unpaid bills while they were still flying there. By this time with interest and penalties, this debt was enormous. India told DL to pay up. DL decided not to pay and drop the route. DL was told they could reapply for their own new authority from JFK to India. DL has reapplied multiple times, and India aviation authority only turns them down. DL would love to serve JFK India again. Now only UA enjoys the spoils. DL serves India from AMS. But that is NW's authority, unrelated to the issue with JFK.

ROFL!

The pilot's insight was interesting enough until I read this. This is complete nonsense. DL has not applied for any new authorities in a long time.

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
On his India theory, it isn't accurate. To listen to DL and ALPA, and I'm more faimiliar with the MEC side, (and if anyone needed a sleep aid and followed the ExIm Boeing financing debate) the reason DL bailed on JFK-BOM was related to their inability to compete with Air India's fares. They were getting killed on the route. Here is a good article: http://articles.economictimes.indiat...lines

DL came up with this argument when they decided to protest Ex-Im guarantees to foreign airlines, AI in particular. However, in reality, AI made up a small % of the competition DL faced on USA-India routes. Competition from the likes of EK and QR are the real reason that DL dropped the route...

[Edited 2012-09-27 13:52:04]
Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
 
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mayor
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 6):
Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
The underlying authority for DL's India JFK flights was from Pan Am. Now the situation was such where DL was slaughtering Jet Airways from JFK to India. India said, okay, Pan Am still owed a staggering amount of money from unpaid bills while they were still flying there. By this time with interest and penalties, this debt was enormous. India told DL to pay up. DL decided not to pay and drop the route. DL was told they could reapply for their own new authority from JFK to India. DL has reapplied multiple times, and India aviation authority only turns them down. DL would love to serve JFK India again. Now only UA enjoys the spoils. DL serves India from AMS. But that is NW's authority, unrelated to the issue with JFK.

ROFL!

The pilot's insight was interesting enough until I read this. This is complete nonsense. DL has not applied for any new authorities in a long time.

Any bills that PA owed, would have either been eliminated or paid in their BK proceedings. IIRC, DL didn't assume any of PA's debts, especially since this wasn't a merger, but just the acquisition of some of PA's assets.....i.e. facilities, a/c, routes. Assuming assets doesn't mean that DL owes the bills, too.



Sounds to me like the pilot is either full of it, OR the Indian government assumed, because DL had the route authority, that DL should pay up, even if they weren't legally obligated. Little bit of extortion, possibly, to try and recoup what PA owed.
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
DL is trying to upgrade flights from ATL to Brazil with the 747.

If that happens DTW-GRU will feel as exclusive as a business jet.
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modesto2
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:54 pm

I would be very careful about listening to a pilot's thoughts. As a former airline pilot, I've seen so many pilots spread rumors and try to speak intelligently about the industry. They understand flight operations and the aspects of the industry that pertain to their job. However, they're generally not well-informed about flight profitability and other business-related issues.
 
Triple7Lr
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:12 pm

I've been hearing about upgauging ATL-GRU to the 747 but they're waiting until all mods are complete.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:41 pm

My comments are don't necessarily believe frontline employees when they tell you such and such did wel or reasons for failure. Unless top mgmt went into the field ( a possibility I'll admit woukd be more likely to happen at DL than AA) , it is unlikely he has actually seen and P&L data. Emirates is killing everyone and every airline that has to fly a route that emirates can offer via DXB. That is what is killing US-India markets. Volume is there but yield stinks.
 
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b727fa
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:50 pm

SO many pilots "have a buddy who told them" or "they were in a meeting..." or "they heard it 'right from the top' " that you'd think THEY were management. Take it with a grain of salt.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
F9 is indeed dying. Southwest wants concourse A at DEN. F9 has approached DL as a potential savior and was turned down. DEN airport does not care about F9 anymore, and does not see a future for them at DEN. F9's cost structure at DEN is a problem. F9 is worth more dead that alive.

I wish I had a buck for every time anyone from another has said that.

Nor do I know how Frontier's cost structure is a problem at DEN, It made $14 million profit last quarter.

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...ines-gives-a-lift-to.html?page=all

And Republic did do a deal with Delta, involving Frontier but not for Frontier.

mariner

ps: anyone who doesn't take anti-malaria pills going to Africa hasn't done their homework.

[Edited 2012-09-27 16:21:48]
aeternum nauta
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 12):
SO many pilots "have a buddy who told them" or "they were in a meeting..." or "they heard it 'right from the top' " that you'd think THEY were management. Take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, as interesting as these rumors are, they are just like the millions of other rumors we hear of from "pilot friends"
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:14 pm

The malaria thing was quite interesting... I'd never heard of anyone dying.
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eastern747
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:26 pm

I think that listening to a pilot, and what they know, is like listening to a CTA(Chicago Transit Bus driver) talking about the inter workings there.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 16):
I think that listening to a pilot, and what they know, is like listening to a CTA(Chicago Transit Bus driver) talking about the inter workings there.

In this case, very much so, because very little of it makes sense - you'd want more than mosquito repellent to prevent malaria.

As for:

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
No US carriers fly nonstop to MNL since Philippine Airlines has such low costs.

One US carrier - Hawaiian - does fly non-stop to MNL.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-27 16:48:56]
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
In this case, very much so, because very little of it makes sense - you'd want more than mosquito repellent to prevent malaria.

I do believe they give malaria pills to pilots scheduled to fly these routes. I hear that they need to be taken in advance or they are not effective

And although I cannot back up the line about the DL pilots dying, I have heard this before (I thought it was 2 pilots.) Doesn't make it true but I can at least say this isn't a random rumor out of the blue and has been around for about, uh I'd say 2 years. My dad (a DL pilot) told me this so take that for what it's worth lol
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 15):
The malaria thing was quite interesting... I'd never heard of anyone dying.

I have heard stories about people dying for a long time. I think it happened more often when the African service was still new. There is a great sense of awareness now at Delta of Malaria and people take precautions. However I heard recently an NYC FA was in the hospital being treated for it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
anyone who doesn't take anti-malaria pills going to Africa hasn't done their homework.

One of the issues I've heard is that people often get Africa at the last minute on A days. DL FA's have told me that you have to start taking the anti-malaria tablets a few days before you go. So if you get assigned it on reserve it's not really an option.
 
max999
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 2):
HA flies 4 weekly flights NONstop from HNL to MNL and have apparently been quite successful in competing with PAL over the years. In fact, in November the flight will have added capacity and amenities when the 330 starts flying the route.

That's a much shorter flight than from the mainland...the lower costs probably makes it more manageable for HA than for DL to fly to MNL nonstop.

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
He said some of the following things: Over the years, DL has had over 20 pilots fall ill from malaria flying trips to Africa, particularly Accra and Dakar.

My friend is a New York based FA for DL and he's thankful that the Africa flights are staffed by the ATL base. He knows all about the malaria stories and those sub-Saharan African countries are definitely on his no go list.
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mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I do believe they give malaria pills to pilots scheduled to fly these routes. I hear that they need to be taken in advance or they are not effective

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
And although I cannot back up the line about the DL pilots dying, I have heard this before (I thought it was 2 pilots.) Doesn't make it true but I can at least say this isn't a random rumor out of the blue and has been around for about, uh I'd say 2 years. My dad (a DL pilot) told me this so take that for what it's worth lol

I remember when it was widely believed - in Africa - that you could catch AIDS from mosquitos.

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 19):
One of the issues I've heard is that people often get Africa at the last minute on A days. DL FA's have told me that you have to start taking the anti-malaria tablets a few days before you go. So if you get assigned it on reserve it's not really an option.

They have to be very unlucky. I've been going to Africa regularly since I was six months old - that's a very long time - and I haven;t always been strict with my precautions. I've never been infected with malaria.

And:

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
DEN airport does not care about F9 anymore, and does not see a future for them at DEN.

Frontier has just successfully renegotiated its lease for gates at DIA.

mariner
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b727fa
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:29 am

I never had a problem in ABV, LOS or anywhere else. Stay indoors after 1700 until about 1000. Done.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
They have to be very unlucky. I've been going to Africa regularly since I was six months old - that's a very long time - and I haven;t always been strict with my precautions. I've never been infected with malaria.

You're rather lucky
 
cokepopper
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting max999 (Reply 20):
My friend is a New York based FA for DL and he's thankful that the Africa flights are staffed by the ATL base. He knows all about the malaria stories and those sub-Saharan African countries are definitely on his no go list.

ummm I'm NYC based and we do ACC and DKR.
 
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mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 23):
You're rather lucky

Maybe. But even if I'm not strict, I am careful. If I'm in certain areas I will always sleep under a mozzie net and not every mosquito in Africa is a carrier.

In all my life, travelling in some of the most remote regions of Africa, I've only ever met a couple of (white) people who have had malaria and obviously, it wasn't fatal - recurring for one of them, but not fatal.

mariner
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aviateur
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
3 DL pilots did die from the disease as a direct result from malarial infection acquired on layovers. One died 7 days after returning from a trip, he even told me his name. Another one of the pilots had HIV and therefore already had a compromised system, the malaria pushed him over the edge.



Bollocks.

These sorts of things are rife with hearsay and exaggeration.

This entire post was extremely annoying and largely inaccurate.


PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting max999 (Reply 20):
My friend is a New York based FA for DL and he's thankful that the Africa flights are staffed by the ATL base.

False.
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 15):
The malaria thing was quite interesting... I'd never heard of anyone dying.

There are a variety of strains. There is one particularly nasty than can kill you at the very first attack. Wether that´s true in the case of the DL pilots, I have no idea.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
In all my life, travelling in some of the most remote regions of Africa, I've only ever met a couple of (white) people who have had malaria and obviously, it wasn't fatal - recurring for one of them, but not fatal.

My grandfather, who fought in the U.S. Army in the Phillipines from 1899 to 1901 (or so) contracted malaria and had at least three incidents where he had to spend time in the hospital while there. However, he died at the ripe old age of 84 and I really never saw any evidence that he was still suffering from it, although he could have been. Matter of fact, I didn't even know he had it until I saw his military records.

[Edited 2012-09-27 20:08:29]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 29):
My grandfather, who fought in the U.S. Army in the Phillipines from 1899 to 1901 (or so) contracted malaria and had at least three incidents where he had to spend time in the hospital while there. However, he died at the ripe old age of 84 and I really never saw any evidence that he was still suffering from it, although he could have been.

It's a recurring thing, it can flare up from time to time. In the old days, they said you never got it out of your system, but I don't know what modern medicine says.

It's why gin and tonic was such a popular drink throughout the (tropical) British Empire. The tonic water contained quinine, which is anti-malarial, and in India they added gin to mask the bitter taste of the quinine.

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SpeckSpot
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:56 am

I'm originally from ACC and am very saddened to hear of Delta crew dying from malaria. My sincere condolences to Delta and the families of the pilots.

The strain in ACC can kill you if it is not treated, but there are very effective treatments. In any case every crewmember should be on malaria prophylaxis (ie prevention) before arrival in ACC. I'm glad to hear they are now given the preventive pills, but personally I think the management should also consult with a doctor who is specialized in tropical medicine and infectious diseases to design an education program appropriate for airline crew. If I were a crewmember I would take matters into my own hands and see a docter myself (not just any doctor but one with specialization in tropical medicine and infectious diseases -- you owe it to yourself to do this at least once and maybe every so often as a refresher "course").

Airline crew are among the most disciplined professionals anywhere, with checklists, and protocols and stuff like that, and it is a question of figuring out that this is a serious problem with very effective preventive measures and figuring out a way to enforce that crewmembers are taking the malaria precautions with the same professionalism they do checklists and preflight stuff.

As to specific precautions, I will just mention them and recommend that anyone google these and get to know how to use these against malaria -- taking prophylaxis, knowing emergency treatment doses, sleeping under mosquito nets, using airconditioned rooms, dressing with covered limbs (long sleeved shirts and pants), staying indoors with netting or glass windows, getting treatment immediately you notice a problem (not waiting till you're back in the US), using DEET, etc.

There is information out there (google malaria prevention and use the CDC and Mayo clinic websites at least), and what I need to say here is not so much the specifics of that information, but the seriousness of the issue if it is ignored, and the safety of travel to Ghana if you take the right precautions.

It is truly very unfortunate indeed that crewmembers were lost in this way. My sincere condolences.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
and the use of RJ's,

The use of regional jet's what?
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:30 am

My wife flew KL from AMS to DAR a few years ago. She had to have a series of injections before hand, including yellow fewer, typhoid, cholera and a tetanus booster, in addition to the malaria pills which she had to start on two weeks before the trip. This was required by the travel insurance company.
 
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mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 33):
She had to have a series of injections before hand, including yellow fewer, typhoid, cholera and a tetanus booster, in addition to the malaria pills which she had to start on two weeks before the trip.

That's why I find it incredibly difficult to believe that a huge corporation like Delta, with considerable international experience, would send its crews to these places without the necessary medical precautions.

It isn't just Africa - malaria and other tropical diseases exist in some parts of South America to which Delta flies.

And if Delta did do this and if pilots died - why have the families of those pilots not gone to the media or sued the airline?

mariner
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 7):
Any bills that PA owed, would have either been eliminated or paid in their BK proceedings. IIRC, DL didn't assume any of PA's debts, especially since this wasn't a merger, but just the acquisition of some of PA's assets.....i.e. facilities, a/c, routes. Assuming assets doesn't mean that DL owes the bills, too.

Just like the TW bills in TLV?
 
goldorak
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 15):
The malaria thing was quite interesting... I'd never heard of anyone dying.
Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
In all my life, travelling in some of the most remote regions of Africa, I've only ever met a couple of (white) people who have had malaria and obviously, it wasn't fatal - recurring for one of them, but not fatal.

It can be deadly (the one caused by Plasmodium Falciparum). FYI, according to the WHO (World Health Organization), it is estimated that 655,000 people died from malaria in 2010.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
In this case, very much so, because very little of it makes sense - you'd want more than mosquito repellent to prevent malaria.

Yes and No. For malaria, avoiding mosquito bites is the primary prevention of the disease, not the drugs. The reason is that people who live in infected zones cannot take the preventive drugs forever. This is also true for airlines crews who are flying to infected zones very regularly. As the preventive drugs need to be taken before, during and several days after the stay in the infected zone, you can imagine some crews having to take these drugs permanently, so no way. So we come back to avoiding mosquito bites, by using insect repellents and covering most part of your body (shirt with long sleeve, socks, no short, etc). The mosquito transmitting malaria is active from sunset to sunrise, so all night.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I do believe they give malaria pills to pilots scheduled to fly these routes. I hear that they need to be taken in advance or they are not effective

I think it depends (see previous comment). It would be interesting to have an insight from a crew member who flies regularly to Africa or some countries in south east Asia and Lat. Am.
Not all preventive drugs needs to be taken in advance. Some of them can be started the day before or even the same day you arrive in the infected zone.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 22):
I never had a problem in ABV, LOS or anywhere else. Stay indoors after 1700 until about 1000. Done.

It's a little bit more complicated that that unfortunately. Never had some mosquitoes inside your house ? Why do you think people are sleeping under a mosquito net ?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
There are a variety of strains. There is one particularly nasty than can kill you at the very first attack.

Yes, it is the one given by Plasmodium Falciparum.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
It's a recurring thing, it can flare up from time to time.

Only the one caused by Plasmodium Falciparum is recurring. The other ones are normally one occurrence.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:48 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 36):
Yes and No. For malaria, avoiding mosquito bites is the primary prevention of the disease, not the drugs.

Nevertheless, when my father worked for BOAC in Africa, the airline demanded that we take the precautions.

It wasn't a choice. Any company I have worked for (not airlines) has demanded the same.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-27 22:57:53]
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 36):
I think it depends (see previous comment). It would be interesting to have an insight from a crew member who flies regularly to Africa or some countries in south east Asia and Lat. Am.

I´ve never worked for an airline, but did work for a huge energy conglomerate in the US that sent me to Central and South American tropical areas for extended periods.

Before leaving, their medical contractor gave me a variety of shots, already mentioned here, but of special significance was for Yellow Fever, Hep A and Hep B and the anti-malarial pills. We were supposed to take those 15 days in advance, during our stay and for two weeks once we returned. I don´t know how much of an experiment this can be, but the one of my co-workers who refused to take the pills was the one who got Malaria.

Of course, there was also this idiot who ate a clam ceviche at a Nicaraguan port, and even though having gotten an Hep B shot had to be med-evac back to the US. with a bad case of Hep B.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
They have to be very unlucky. I've been going to Africa regularly since I was six months old - that's a very long time - and I haven;t always been strict with my precautions. I've never been infected with malaria.

Same here. Loved Africa. Would never not go due to fear of Malaria. Truth is, with preventative measures and a good immune system, it really isn't that big of a deal.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I do believe they give malaria pills to pilots scheduled to fly these routes. I hear that they need to be taken in advance or they are not effective

You do. And they give you some wicked crazy dreams!

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I was actually surprised that CO announced that IAH-LOS would be among their first routes; I can't help wondering if there were a few CO crews with seniority to bid for the 787s who thought to themselves, "you know, I'll just stick with the 757 for a bit and wait for the 777!"

I would take that in a second!

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
In all my life, travelling in some of the most remote regions of Africa, I've only ever met a couple of (white) people who have had malaria and obviously, it wasn't fatal - recurring for one of them, but not fatal.

Exactly. Even if you contract it, but get medical attention quickly, you are most likely going to survive. It's going to suck having it, but you won't die if handled correctly.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
It's why gin and tonic was such a popular drink throughout the (tropical) British Empire. The tonic water contained quinine, which is anti-malarial, and in India they added gin to mask the bitter taste of the quinine.

That is really interesting. Didn't know that.

Quoting SpeckSpot (Reply 31):
The strain in ACC can kill you if it is not treated, but there are very effective treatments.

The key statement there, "if not treated." There's a lot that can kill you out there if not treated.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 33):
She had to have a series of injections before hand, including yellow fewer, typhoid, cholera and a tetanus booster, in addition to the malaria pills which she had to start on two weeks before the trip. This was required by the travel insurance company.

I have had most of those (and some others) - and never had a problem and I have traveled to some pretty remote places.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 36):
FYI, according to the WHO (World Health Organization), it is estimated that 655,000 people died from malaria in 2010.

Most of those people unfortunately live full-time in the Malaria-ridden zones and sadly do not have access to good water, let alone good medical treatment.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
catiii
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 6):
Competition from the likes of EK and QR are the real reason that DL dropped the route...

And EK's 777's are ExIm financed (and I believe the 5 777's ordered in 2011 by Qatar are also ExIm financed) so the original point remains. DL couldn't compete based on costs, and dropped the route accordingly. It wasn't because they didn't pay their bills to the Indian government.
 
max999
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 24):
ummm I'm NYC based and we do ACC and DKR.
Quoting aviateur (Reply 27):
False.

You're probably correct...Maybe my friend never gets the Africa trips because he actively avoids them!
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 35):
Just like the TW bills in TLV?

The way I understood it, the DL/PA deal was very different from the AA/TW one. In any event, governments used this kind of "extortion" all the time and there's not much the airline can do about it except just back out of the situation. Our own federal gov't. uses this all the time in relation to the states (remember the 55 mph speed limit?).


Using this pilot's logic (in the OP), the Indian government, would have also used the AMS-BOM (no matter WHO had it first), as a bargaining chip to get the bills paid. This makes me think his ENTIRE theory is out of whack.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting SpeckSpot (Reply 31):
I'm glad to hear they are now given the preventive pills, but personally I think the management should also consult with a doctor who is specialized in tropical medicine and infectious diseases to design an education program appropriate for airline crew.

They do. We have access to qualified doctors and resources and training to help us at any time.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 36):
Quoting B727FA (Reply 22):
I never had a problem in ABV, LOS or anywhere else. Stay indoors after 1700 until about 1000. Done.

It's a little bit more complicated that that unfortunately. Never had some mosquitoes inside your house ? Why do you think people are sleeping under a mosquito net ?

It's a good guideline. I don't open my windows there, either. It's about being smart, educated and mitigating your risk. I was giving an example of what I have done. DEET and long pants/sleeps help as well. But it's not like there is a giant mosquito with a needle the size of a paper tube waiting to infect you as you walk off the plane...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 38):
Of course, there was also this idiot who ate a clam ceviche at a Nicaraguan port, and even though having gotten an Hep B shot had to be med-evac back to the US. with a bad case of Hep B.

Hmm...something wrong here. You are probably speaking about hep. A in this case. Hep. B is transmitted by blood, sperm and other body fluids, not by food or water.
 
klwright69
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Thanks for the responses...

He did explain that some strains of malaria are fatal.

I knew his "knowledge" of why DL dropped JFK India nonstops would get things rocking in this thread. But one has to wonder how come UA does so well on EWR-BOM and DEL when DL failed. It doesn't really add up at all. It seems rich indians living in NJ would not be the only key factor as some have said, and DL has a big operation in JFK too.
 
delta2ual
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:22 pm

Can't speak for the pilots, but we did have a F/A in 2007 die from Malaria when I was based in NYC.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
Alnicocunife
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
India they added gin to mask the bitter taste of the quinine.

Or was it the other way around, adding quinine to mask the taste of gin?

[
 
aviateur
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
As a matter of fact Delta required crew members to get a yellow fever shot to go to Jordan and it wasn't until a heated exchange between ATL and an actual flight attendant that the requirement was dropped. Delta considered Jordan to be part of "Africa".

False.

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
3 DL pilots did die from the disease as a direct result from malarial infection acquired on layovers.

False. No Delta pilots have died from malaria.

I asked the A.net moderators to delete this entire discussion because it full of bad information. It's still here, but let me reiterate: IT'S FULL OF BAD INFORMATION.


PS

[Edited 2012-10-11 19:08:32]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
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RE: A DL Pilot's Interesting Insights

Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting aviateur (Reply 48):
False. No Delta pilots have died from malaria.

While I am suspicious of the story, do you have any proof?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)

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