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SKAirbus
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Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:20 am

The Norwegian press are really giving Ryanair a bad time at the moment. Whether or not this is justified is a matter of opinion suppose. Anyway here is the next one (article from NRK in Norwegian): http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.8338991

Apparently Siemens has ordered its 380,000 staff not to fly Ryanair for business trips. It has also called on Ryanair to improve safety for its passengers.

Siemens' press chief said to Swedish broadcaster SVT, "The Siemens management in Germany has decided to boycott Ryanair for a while in order to put pressure on the airline to implement measures to improve safety for our staff".

The article also cites certain incidents that have lead to these safety concerns:

- Three Ryanair planes had to perform emergency landings in Valencia due to low fuel.
- Three people were injured during an emergency landing in Palma.

Also, there have been a number of publised incidents at Rygge, including a high-speed landing due to faulty flap settings.

We all know that Ryanair cut costs where they can but when it comes to safety, do you really think they are putting people at risk?

[Edited 2012-09-28 01:21:21]
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JU068
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:27 am

Has Ryanair released an official statement yet?
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
Siemens' press chief said to Swedish broadcaster SVT, "The Siemens management in Germany has decided to boycott Ryanair for a while in order to put pressure on the airline to implement measures to improve safety for our staff".

Well if they went to the trouble of putting out a press release, then there is obviously another agenda here that isn't clear.
Why didn't they just make an internal policy change through their corporate travel dept. Lots of companies have policies of which carriers to use or not to use, but they don't release press statements about it.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 2):
Well if they went to the trouble of putting out a press release, then there is obviously another agenda here that isn't clear.
Why didn't they just make an internal policy change through their corporate travel dept. Lots of companies have policies of which carriers to use or not to use, but they don't release press statements about it.

I think they are trying to make a point as it is a question of safety and not just a matter of corporate policy.

The article says that Steven McNamara at Ryanair (information chief) says he is unaware of the boycott.
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cedarjet
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:05 am

I hate Ryanair - boarding pass policy (£50!!) and open seating and general bad ju ju - but they are one of the safest airlines in the world. Loads of aircraft in the airspace over Spain that day declared emergencies, Ryanair had three cos they're the biggest airline in Europe. How many did SAS have? Oh, they only have a couple of flights a day to the whole Iberian peninsula?

When FR had a double birdstrike / double flameout near Rome Ciampiano, the pilot pulled off a deadstick landing as good as Sully or Burkill - and yet FR's chief pilot chastised him (as well as congratulating him and brandishing, apparently, a large cheque as thanks) because the aeroplane, landing gear shorn off and skidding on it's belly, stopped 20ft to one side of the centreline and not right on it. That is the standard Ryanair expect their pilots to operate at, and the fact that they do more flying than any other airline in Europe without an accident (and just the one birdstrike-induced hull-loss, which was without injury to humans) shows how safe they are.

If Siemens had the safety of their employees at heart, they would have been banned from flying Air France even before the AF447 crash. There is something else at work here.
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vfw614
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 2):
Well if they went to the trouble of putting out a press release, then there is obviously another agenda here that isn't clear.
Why didn't they just make an internal policy change through their corporate travel dept. Lots of companies have policies of which carriers to use or not to use, but they don't release press statements about it.

Where does the article say that Siemens put out a press release? My understanding is that the press got wind of the story and contacted a Siemens press officer who responded to the inquiry. Nothing sinister behind this.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:17 am

This was one of the top stories on Norwegian broadcaster NRK's morning news this morning, repeated every half hour. They usually don't report tabloid stories, so there must be something more than just a rumour.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
If Siemens had the safety of their employees at heart, they would have been banned from flying Air France even before the AF447 crash. There is something else at work here.

I agree. The FR experience is awful for all sorts of reasons, but there is no empirical evidence of which I am aware that FR is unsafe (or less safe than European legacies).
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airbazar
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):

If Siemens had the safety of their employees at heart, they would have been banned from flying Air France even before the AF447 crash. There is something else at work here.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Siemens has an "airport solutions" department which sells their products for building efficient hubs. None of it fits with Ryanair's operating model so perhaps they see Ryanair as a threat to their business plan, at least in Europe. I'm just speculating of course but I'm pretty sure this has absolutely nothing to do with Ryanair's safety record and safety practices.
 
dergay
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:02 pm

Why the anti Ryanair drift? Does anybody know (or care about) the other three aircraft that declared a Mayday for low fuel on that fateful day in Valencia? Can anybody name the airlines involved and state whether they appeared in the media or not? Seemingly the other Irish airlin - Aer Lingus (Air Fungus) has four FAs injured - including one with a broken leg on a recent flight, but it wasn't highlighted by anybody - MOL must be doing something good to p*ss off the media and get so mush publicity!
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ikramerica
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:21 pm

Were they "emergency landings" or diversions? Low fuel diversions during weather are common.

I supposed AA is unsafe because on a flight back from NRT we had to divert to DEN for fuel reasons even though we had just crossed into Texas? AUS, IAH, DFW were all closed, and we didn't have enough fuel to circle for 2 hours. EMERGENCY! Not...
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tdscanuck
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
We all know that Ryanair cut costs where they can but when it comes to safety, do you really think they are putting people at risk?

I'd argue the opposite...because they're so successful at cutting costs (and basing all their branding around that), they *know* that they're more exposed to safety allegations than almost any other carrier. As a direct result, they're *more* safety conscious. If BA has an accident, we assume they did everything right because they're BA and the statistics just went against them (until proven otherwise). If Ryanair has an accident the entire EU will climb down their throats, regardless of the facts of the matter.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):
I think they are trying to make a point as it is a question of safety and not just a matter of corporate policy.

But it's not a question of safety...the data is very very clear on that. Siemens knows that too...it's is just a matter of corporate policy but, since Siemens doesn't want to say that, they're couching it as a safety question in order to cover their own rears.

Tom.
 
brilondon
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 1):
Has Ryanair released an official statement yet?

Siemens did not release a press statement, in fact that in the article it is stated that the PR department did not know about this situation. This maybe someone's attempt to besmirch FR for their own personal agenda and not Siemens.
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greenwichsud
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Perhaps Siemens is competing for major business from mother hen Lufthansa.
 
lhrnue
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:46 pm

Maybe not the answer, but an observation.
When I was with Siemens, the internal travel booking system was in favour of Lufthansa flights. Cheaper flights for the same route listed on open flight search web pages have not been listed on the internal system. Even Swiss was not always available, even when cheaper. And we always wondered why. What the reason was I don't know, but I have the following speculation:
While each single flight is paid by an individual cost centre, an annual e.g. Lufthansa discount based on the total number of flights is paid to central department. So there could be a target to get as many LH flights as possible instead of other airlines.

In this case abut the safety warning with Ryanair my theory falls over, because ther is no reason to make this public, just chnage the internal booking system.


For the records, this is pure speculations and I did not have any insight.
 
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United787
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:53 pm

Does Siemens manufacturer anything that goes into the Aerospace industry? This would be more interesting if they did. I wonder if they are trying to get its employees to favor using the train?
 
arffdude
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 15):
Does Siemens manufacturer anything that goes into the Aerospace industry? This would be more interesting if they did. I wonder if they are trying to get its employees to favor using the train?

Baggage belt carousels and systems is all I know, but they're a massive company, so I'm sure they have their fingers in other systems as well.
 
kl911
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Is there besides this tabloid article any proof that Siemens really does this and also for this particular reason?

Quoting those 3 diversions and a turbulence victim isnt Siemens, but the / journalist on a bashing mission I guess.
Makes me wonder if the 'journalist' who wrote the article has been a 'stupid' passenger with Ryanair and had to pay for his forgotten boardingpass?  
 
1stfl94
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
I hate Ryanair - boarding pass policy (£50!!) and open seating and general bad ju ju - but they are one of the safest airlines in the world. Loads of aircraft in the airspace over Spain that day declared emergencies, Ryanair had three cos they're the biggest airline in Europe. How many did SAS have? Oh, they only have a couple of flights a day to the whole Iberian peninsula?

When FR had a double birdstrike / double flameout near Rome Ciampiano, the pilot pulled off a deadstick landing as good as Sully or Burkill - and yet FR's chief pilot chastised him (as well as congratulating him and brandishing, apparently, a large cheque as thanks) because the aeroplane, landing gear shorn off and skidding on it's belly, stopped 20ft to one side of the centreline and not right on it. That is the standard Ryanair expect their pilots to operate at, and the fact that they do more flying than any other airline in Europe without an accident (and just the one birdstrike-induced hull-loss, which was without injury to humans) shows how safe they are.

If Siemens had the safety of their employees at heart, they would have been banned from flying Air France even before the AF447 crash. There is something else at work here

As much as I don't enjoy flying Ryanair there is a fair point here cedarjet. If you think that in 27 years of flying and with the number of flights per year Ryanair has only had a couple of incidents and no fatalities, something that not all major airlines can say.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:48 pm

Few people, if any, enjoy flying Ryanair. We know that, O'Leary knows that. However, very many people cannot resist the offer of bargain basement prices for air travel across or to the continent. O'Leary knows this better than most, and is offering a product that caters wonderfully for that market. In the process the airline has become a viable alternative to the regulars on quite a few routes. But us business travelers hate FR with a passion, and quite often for good reasons. Thus one could, perhaps, nurture thoughts about where in a corporation a rumour such as this could have spawned. But I'm not buying it, for the simple reason it's almost unheard of that one major Europe based corporation issues public statements that are derogatory to other big corporations. It's poor corporate comms that's bound to backfire on you. For that reason alone I think this whole story is a hoax.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 15):
Does Siemens manufacturer anything that goes into the Aerospace industry? This would be more interesting if they did.

Aerospace uses a lot of large assembly lines...it's basically impossible to do that without Siemens' equipment or that of their direct competitors.

Tom.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:46 pm

Who knows whether it was really Siemens' decision to begin with? My employer's corporate travel policy has a list of several airlines that we are not allowed to fly on, along with a blanket ban on all airlines from specific countries. Our travel department merely enforces the list, however, but it is written by our insurance carrier.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
I agree. The FR experience is awful for all sorts of reasons, but there is no empirical evidence of which I am aware that FR is unsafe (or less safe than European legacies).

Perceived risk is as important as actual risk.
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asctty
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:40 pm

As a safety engineering consultant, I would like to think that Siemens Corporate will distance themselves from this article very quickly as it could be very damaging. Siemens supply some ultra reliable equipment to Blue Chip companies based on factual reliability/safety data. I think most will find that Ryanair is one of the most reliable and safest airlines in Europe (if not the world) based on the number of flights and PAX per flight.
I use them all them time as simply a flying bus service. Yes, sometimes they can be annoying from a customer service point of view, but you can't fault their business model.
Lots of posts/news lately are having a go, when actually the underlying cause of recent incidents may not have been the fault of the pilot or indeed the airline, as the 3 recent Spanish events have proved after investigation by the authorities.
Perhaps the Siemens ban on Ryanair is more of a politically move than one based on safety standards. If it is the latter, then Siemens will have even more explaining to do regarding the safety stats they used, and they ones they flog theor own safety products to their own customers??
I think that it is frustrating that FR are getting yet another pasting for no real reason other than they provide a reasonably priced, but reliable and safe service.
BTW, I would use someone else if they could be as efficient as FR but more friendly. Alas my regular commute from EMA to ALC/MJV leaves little choice  
 
ltbewr
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:17 am

Perhaps too, it is just to complicated to use them, that employees make it clear they don't like to use them as too many pax are 'trash', due to their many individual charges, if the flight is overbooked or canceled they can't transfer to other airlines.
 
grimey
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:46 am

Quoting ARFFdude (Reply 16):
Quoting United787 (Reply 15):
Does Siemens manufacturer anything that goes into the Aerospace industry? This would be more interesting if they did. I wonder if they are trying to get its employees to favor using the train?

Baggage belt carousels and systems is all I know, but they're a massive company, so I'm sure they have their fingers in other systems as well.

From what I've been told in the past Siemens did the new baggage system in Terminal 2 in DUB
 
lhrnue
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting grimey (Reply 24):
From what I've been told in the past Siemens did the new baggage system in Terminal 2 in DUB

As well as
Beijing T3
Incheon
Munich T2
Frankfurt
Madrid T2
Sydney
Paris
and the list goes on and on.
 
kl911
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:05 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 19):
Few people, if any, enjoy flying Ryanair. We know that, O'Leary knows that

I do. I am sitting at 36000 feet enjoying the view across Europe for a few Euros..  
 
AngMoh
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:23 am

I don't think Siemens staff ordinarily flies Ryanair for the simple reason that bookings must be made through corporate travel while Ryanair bookings must be made on-line with a personal credit card. Corporate travel rules do not allow individuals to book travel directly and bypass the corporate travel office. And I am pretty sure Ryanair does not accept the Siemens terms of payment.... (90 days). At least that is the way it was when I worked for Siemens (5 years ago).

I am pretty sure this "boycott" is a load of nonsense.
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SKAirbus
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:35 am

[quote=asctty,reply=22]As a safety engineering consultant, I would like to think that Siemens Corporate will distance themselves from this article very quickly as it could be very damaging.

Will they? Siemens' own information chief was even interviewed by Swedish TV about this, so they are hardly hiding away.

Also, the article is on Norway's state broadcaster with similar editorial guidelines to the BBC. Not VG or any other awful newspaper (Norway has many).
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kl911
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:07 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 19):
But us business travelers hate FR with a passion, and quite often for good reasons.

Why is that? FR has one of the best if not THE best ontime record in Europe, and just 1 cancellation in 15000 flights. I thought those are the most important things for business people. ( Who shouldnt fly but use video conferencing so I will reach my sales target easier..   )
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 29):
Why is that? FR has one of the best if not THE best ontime record in Europe, and just 1 cancellation in 15000 flights. I thought those are the most important things for business people.

The last company I flew for specifically barred us from flying Ryanair after there were a couple of incidents where crew members missed their rostered duty due to Ryanair either changing the flight schedule or cancelling the flight.

It's no good Ryanair offering to refund you the cost of your ticket after cancelling your flight if it means you're 500 miles from where you are meant to be, checking in for work.

Rgds
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rfields5421
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Thread starter):
We all know that Ryanair cut costs where they can but when it comes to safety, do you really think they are putting people at risk?

Ryanair cuts corners on 'safety' just like every other airline in the world. They are no better or no worse than any other airline.

I'm sure if they were in the US, we would see a thread a couple times a year about fines by the FAA for safety violations. Those fines are almost always about the documentation/ paperwork - not about real safety of flight issues.

For the size of their fleet and the number of daily flights - Ryanair is quite safe.

As mentioned above - there is something else going on with this press release/ policy.

One possibility is that Siemens is finding for business travel, Ryanair is likely more expensive than some other LCC carriers when all the fees are added on.

Another possibility is that they are hoping to move their business to Air Berlin. Saying the reason to not reimburse employees for Ryanair for safety sounds better than 'we prefer an airline from our country' which is really non-politically correct in today's Europe. Though I'm sure several companies have such a policy.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
Ryanair cuts corners on 'safety' just like every other airline in the world. They are no better or no worse than any other airline.

I'd argue that they're quite a bit better than most airlines.

Tom.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
I'd argue that they're quite a bit better than most airlines.

Tom.

One thing I would like other memebrs to inform me is, Ryanair's pilots dont seem to walkround the plane in their turnrounds. All airlines I fly regularl we can visually see the pilots doing this, but I dont notice that on the 5 or so ryanair flights?
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flyingalex
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 27):
I don't think Siemens staff ordinarily flies Ryanair for the simple reason that bookings must be made through corporate travel while Ryanair bookings must be made on-line with a personal credit card. Corporate travel rules do not allow individuals to book travel directly and bypass the corporate travel office. And I am pretty sure Ryanair does not accept the Siemens terms of payment.... (90 days). At least that is the way it was when I worked for Siemens (5 years ago).

I am pretty sure this "boycott" is a load of nonsense.


I'm sure the boycott is real, but I'm also convinced it has nothing to do with safety or the recent press coverage of Ryanair.

I worked for Siemens a few years ago, and while I was there I worked on a procurement optimization project that, among other things, addressed travel costs.

One of the rules Siemens had then (and to the best of my knowledge, still has now) is that all business travel had to be booked an paid for on the corporate American Express card. AmEx offer a number of insurances to their cardholders (including corporate cardholders), which Siemens wanted to take advantage of. These included health insurance, travel insurance, life insurance, etc. It was a joke among my colleagues that the best thing that could happen to their wives was that they (the colleagues, not the wives) would die on a business trip paid for on their Siemens AmEx. Therefore, there was a massive preference for vendors who accepted AmEx cards for payment.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, would you care to guess which Irish airline does not accept AmEx cards?

Correct. That one.

Which is why Siemens actively discourages its employees from booking business travel with Ryanair. The safety aspect sounds good to a clueless press, but in reality it's about administrative issues.

None of the above is intended as a defense of Ryanair. I hate them with a passion. But I think safety is by no means the biggest problem at that sorry excuse for an airline.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 33):
One thing I would like other memebrs to inform me is, Ryanair's pilots dont seem to walkround the plane in their turnrounds. All airlines I fly regularl we can visually see the pilots doing this, but I dont notice that on the 5 or so ryanair flights?

It depends on the Ops Spec, but for several airlines the walkaround is only required by the flight crew on their first flight of the day. Given the high cycle rate at Ryanair (many flights per flight crew shift), odds are that on any given flight you don't have a fresh flight crew and they've already done their walkaround.

Tom.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 35):
It depends on the Ops Spec, but for several airlines the walkaround is only required by the flight crew on their first flight of the day. Given the high cycle rate at Ryanair (many flights per flight crew shift), odds are that on any given flight you don't have a fresh flight crew and they've already done their walkaround.Tom.

The way Ryanair pilots seem to slam their aircraft into the runway each time, I'd think a walkaround would be necessary!

They don't do smooth!
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kc135topboom
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RE: Siemens Boycott Ryanair Due To Safety Concerns

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting ARFFdude (Reply 16):
Quoting United787 (Reply 15):Does Siemens manufacturer anything that goes into the Aerospace industry? This would be more interesting if they did. I wonder if they are trying to get its employees to favor using the train?
Baggage belt carousels and systems is all I know, but they're a massive company, so I'm sure they have their fingers in other systems as well.

Siemens builts/installs a lot of equipment at airports, not just baggage carousels. At DFW the designed, built, and installed the entire SMGCS system and were a big part of the RWSL (runway status light) test/evaluation program. They also build some ILS and other NAV-AID systems.