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DL_Mech
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Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:54 am

Does anyone know which JFK terminal DL used before the merger with Northeast in 1972?



Found here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenfiel.../sizes/l/in/set-72157630088076368/

Another View:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenfiel.../sizes/l/in/set-72157630088076368/
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:32 am

I hate to not be able to answer your question, but that really is a beautiful aircraft...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
ooslc
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:35 am

Found an 8 year old thread that explains the history of JFK terminals.

History/Photos/Status Of JFK Terminals (by WGW2707 Oct 19 2003 in Civil Aviation)

It says T2 was specifically built for NW Orient and DL in 1962.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hate to not be able to answer your question, but that really is a beautiful aircraft...

Love those 880s!!!
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
jsnww81
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting OOSLC (Reply 2):
It says T2 was specifically built for NW Orient and DL in 1962.

Delta actually started off in the United terminal, which later became Terminal 9 and was used primarily by American until it was demolished in the late 2000s. They didn't move to T2 until they acquired Northeast Airlines in 1972. Prior to the Northeast acquisition, JFK was a pretty small station for Delta and they only had a small concourse at T9 with a few gates. I'm guessing that's where this photo was taken. JFK was a larger station for Northeast (relatively speaking - Northeast was one of the smallest trunk carriers) so after the merger it made sense to keep the bigger facility and move over from T9.

T2 was originally built for Northeast, Northwest and Braniff. Braniff and Delta essentially switched places after the Northeast merger in 1972, and Braniff moved over to Delta's old gates in T9 for the last ten years that BN operated.

JAL also used T9 for departures for much of the 1960s and 1970s (arrivals were handled at the IAB), which explains their aircraft in the second photo link.
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 4):
JAL also used T9 for departures for much of the 1960s and 1970s (arrivals were handled at the IAB), which explains their aircraft in the second photo link.

Thanks, there aren't many AA and UA terminal pics during the early days and I didn't recognize the location.

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):
Love those 880s!!!

The nose and cockpit windows make it look like it's going 600 MPH at the gate. I also like that DL used to upkeep all the manufacturer decals on the fuselage from the Convair "Eagle" on the nose to the "Powered by General Electric" decals on the engines. These decals were removed starting with the 1997 livery and have never come back.


http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5961759&nseq=64
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
Yukon880
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):
I also like that DL used to upkeep all the manufacturer decals on the fuselage from the Convair "Eagle" on the nose to the "Powered by General Electric" decals on the engines. These decals were removed starting with the 1997 livery and have never come back.

Agreed, and it seems unlikely that the powerplant logos will ever return to the DL fleet.
But then, the vast majority of passengers as well as airline employees would never know the difference, nor would they care. For the relative few of us that would take note, well, we really don't need the proof a logo would provide anyway,
do we!

On topic, what a lovely shot by Ken Fielding of the Widget's Rocket 880.
Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:23 pm

Such a different world...not that long ago either. Very cool

The last few times I flew through T9 (it was AA Domestic at the end) I remember the light that came in from the west (Afternoon) from the floor to ceiling windows in the concourse.

The terminal itself was very 60/70s design. AA did what they could with it. Low ceilings and such. But I remember thinking how nice the natural light from the afternoon sun was as I walked through.

I have heard the terminal had red carpet everywhere for UA. Any truth to this?
 
timz
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:45 pm

Anybody seen pics of Terminal 2 when it was new? Seems to me it had its three airlines names on the front of the terminal. Braniff, NW... was the other one NE?
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting timz (Reply 8):
Anybody seen pics of Terminal 2 when it was new? Seems to me it had its three airlines names on the front of the terminal. Braniff, NW... was the other one NE?

You are correct. I think the order on the facade, from left to right, was Northeast Braniff Northwest, but I'm not sure.

I looked through my collection of Braniff annual reports, in hopes of finding a picture to confirm this, but the only picture of the facade just showed the word "Braniff", so I couldn't determine whether Northeast or Braniff was on the far left of the facade.

I did find something interesting in BN's 1973 annual report. Braniff had a two page feature about new airport facilities occupied in 1973/74. The main focus was on the then-new DFW airport, and the then-new EWR terminal A, but the report also says:

"John F Kennedy International Airport

Braniff moved into new facilities at the airport on November 12, approximately doubling its previous space, to operate 83 flights a week to Washington, D.C., Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma and South America.

Facilities include four departure and arrival gate areas, two levels for arriving and departing passengers, curbside check-in and automatic baggage handling, a relatively short walking distance from curbside to airplane departure gates, and adjacent rent car parking".

If BN did not move to T9 until Nov 1973, this means they stayed in T2 for about 1 1/4 years after the DL / NE merger, unless they moved somewhere else in the interim.
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Viscount724
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 4):
rior to the Northeast acquisition, JFK was a pretty small station for Delta and they only had a small concourse at T9 with a few gates. I'm guessing that's where this photo was taken.

In their August 1966 timetable, DL had 11 daily departures from JFK (some minor weekend differences). 4 DC-8s and 7 Convair 880s. Routings as follows.

DC-8
JFK-PHL-ATL-MSY-DAL-LAX
JFK-ATL-MSY-DAL-SFO
JFK-ATL-DAL-SFO
JFK-ATL

880
JFK-BAL-ATL (BAL then the code for BWI)
JFK-HOU
JFK-PHL-BAL-MSY
JFK-ATL-HOU
JFK-MSY-HOU
JFK-HOU
JFK-MSY
 
timz
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:09 pm

Arend's book on JFK has a pic of curbside at a new-looking terminal (no date) with "DELTA AIR LINES" next to "UNITED AIR LINES".
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):

In the 880 departures, you have JFK-HOU down twice.......maybe only 10 departures from JFK for DL?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Viscount724
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):

In the 880 departures, you have JFK-HOU down twice.......maybe only 10 departures from JFK for DL?

Those are 2 separate flights JFK-HOU, one at 3:15 PM and one at 10:30 PM (with "night coach" fares). The late one was daily except Saturday.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:26 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):

Okay, copy.........





I believe it was one of those JFK-HOU, 880 flights that had a shipment of radioactive material leak, sometime in the early 70s.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RWA380
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:57 am

Since we are talking about DL at JFK in 1970, in June 1970 I was taking my first ever plane trip at 3 years of age, My Dad says we flew LAX to JFK on a DC-8, it made several stops enroute, but no plane changes, I would be curious to hear if anyone has any timetables from June 1970 showing what would have been my first flight? I was told DAL and ATL were both stops, but the rest escaped my Dad. Love the pic of the 880, very cool nostalgic blast from the past.
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WA707atMSP
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Since we are talking about DL at JFK in 1970, in June 1970 I was taking my first ever plane trip at 3 years of age, My Dad says we flew LAX to JFK on a DC-8, it made several stops enroute, but no plane changes, I would be curious to hear if anyone has any timetables from June 1970 showing what would have been my first flight? I was told DAL and ATL were both stops, but the rest escaped my Dad. Love the pic of the 880, very cool nostalgic blast from the past.

George Hamlin wrote a wonderful six page article about working as a summer intern at JFK for TWA in the summer of 1970 in the 2nd issue of Airways Classics magazine, which was published in 2005. In the article, he mentions that Delta had a 3:00 AM DC-8 that flew JFK-ATL-DAL-LAX-SFO. Hamlin says that if a passenger bound for California arrived at JFK on an inbound flight from Europe that was so late TWA's last flights to California had already departed, they were given the choice of either a seat on the DL flight, or a night in a hotel. Hamlin goes on to say that many passengers chose the DL DC-8, just to get home faster.

I don't know if DL had any other JFK-California flights in 1970 that were even more circtuitous than this flight.
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milesrich
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 4):
Delta actually started off in the United terminal, which later became Terminal 9 and was used primarily by American until it was demolished in the late 2000s. They didn't move to T2 until they acquired Northeast Airlines in 1972. Prior to the Northeast acquisition, JFK was a pretty small station for Delta and they only had a small concourse at T9 with a few gates. I'm guessing that's where this photo was taken. JFK was a larger station for Northeast (relatively speaking - Northeast was one of the smallest trunk carriers) so after the merger it made sense to keep the bigger facility and move over from T9.

T2 was originally built for Northeast, Northwest and Braniff. Braniff and Delta essentially switched places after the Northeast merger in 1972, and Braniff moved over to Delta's old gates in T9 for the last ten years that BN operated.

JAL also used T9 for departures for much of the 1960s and 1970s (arrivals were handled at the IAB), which explains their aircraft in the second photo link.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Since we are talking about DL at JFK in 1970, in June 1970 I was taking my first ever plane trip at 3 years of age, My Dad says we flew LAX to JFK on a DC-8, it made several stops enroute, but no plane changes, I would be curious to hear if anyone has any timetables from June 1970 showing what would have been my first flight? I was told DAL and ATL were both stops, but the rest escaped my Dad. Love the pic of the 880, very cool nostalgic blast from the past.

That Picture above with the DL CV-880 is at the end of the concourse at the original UA terminal that was west of the AA Terminal with the Mosaic Front. Delta stayed there until they purchased via merger, Northeast in 1972. Northeast, in the spring of 1962 was still at the old Temporary Terminal which was located north of the TWA Eero Saarinan designed terminal. The new terminal for NE was located between Pan Am and Eastern's terminals and was opened in late 1962 or 1963. It's original tenants were Braniff, Northwest, and Northeast. I don't remember the numbers, but as you came in Eastern was first and then NW, NE, BN, then PA, then the International Arrivals Building, So I assume PA was Terminal 3.

Delta's flights from New York to the West Coast or Dallas were all routed via Atlanta, as they did not have nonstop authority between DAL/DFW and the Northeast (WAS-PHL-NYC-BDL-BOS). The flight to Los Angeles could have also stopped in MSY, or BHM. I don't believe any other stations between DAL and ATL had DC-8 Service. The flight you were probably referring to was the 300AM departure mentioned above, especially if it stopped anywhere beyond Atlanta.
 
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 17):
Delta's flights from New York to the West Coast or Dallas were all routed via Atlanta, as they did not have nonstop authority between DAL/DFW and the Northeast (WAS-PHL-NYC-BDL-BOS).

In fact, DL did not operate nonstop JFK-LAX/SFO until 1990, eighteen years after deregulation.
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varsity
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):
George Hamlin wrote a wonderful six page article about working as a summer intern at JFK for TWA in the summer of 1970 in the 2nd issue of Airways Classics magazine, which was published in 2005. In the article, he mentions that Delta had a 3:00 AM DC-8 that flew JFK-ATL-DAL-LAX-SFO. Hamlin says that if a passenger bound for California arrived at JFK on an inbound flight from Europe that was so late TWA's last flights to California had already departed, they were given the choice of either a seat on the DL flight, or a night in a hotel. Hamlin goes on to say that many passengers chose the DL DC-8, just to get home faster.

I don't know if DL had any other JFK-California flights in 1970 that were even more circtuitous than this flight.

I remember being at RSW about ten years ago and there was a WN flight boarding with a routing like that... it was something like RSW-MSY-DAL-LAS-OAK. I wondered if it was being operated with a 737 or if they had code-shared with Amtrak's Sunset Limited.
 
milesrich
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 18):
Quoting milesrich (Reply 17):
Delta's flights from New York to the West Coast or Dallas were all routed via Atlanta, as they did not have nonstop authority between DAL/DFW and the Northeast (WAS-PHL-NYC-BDL-BOS).

In fact, DL did not operate nonstop JFK-LAX/SFO until 1990, eighteen years after deregulation.


Mr. Ft Wayne ERJ, I said that they did not have nonstop authority from JFK and other northeastern US airports to Dallas. The Airline Deregulation Act was not signed by President Jimmy Carter until October 24, 1978, and at first airlines were only allowed to pick up dormant route authorities. Complete deregulation that allowed any airline with a certificate and a slot to serve any two airports did not begin until 1981 and couldn't completely set their own fares until the next year. That was only 9 years before you claim Delta started flying from NY to the West Coast nonstop. I didn't look that up but my recollection of that era was that Delta didn't start coast to coast service from NY until they purchased part of Pan Am in 1991. In any event, deregulation did not occur 18 years before 1990, as you seem to claim.

I don't have a 1970 Delta Timetable or OAG, but I do have a November 1968 OAG and a 4-24-68 DL Timetable.
As of 4-24-68, DL had the following scheduled JFK/EWR to LAX/SFO flights

DL 189 D8F Dep JFK 400am Ar LAX 1055am via PHL ,ATL, MSY, and DAL
DL 819 D8F Dep JFK 955am Ar SFO 426pm via ATL, MSY, and DAL
DL 827 D8F Dep JFK 225pm Ar SFO 756pm via ATL, and DAL
DL 821 D8F Dep EWR 515p Ar LAX 1101pm via ATL, DAL & SAN




The OAG from November 1968 shows
DL 121 D8S Dep JFK 315am Ar LAX 850am via ATL & DAL X7 - On Sunday, operated as DL125 D9S JFK-ATL then D8S ATL-DAL-LAX

DL 817 D8F Dep EWR 930a Ar LAX 230pm via ATL & DAL
DL 821 D8F Dep EWR 410p Ar LAX 1015pm via ATL, DAL, & SAN
DL 819 D8F Dep JFK 840a Ar SFO 343pm via ATL, MSY, and DAL

Based on the above, it would not surprise me if DL's ability to carry passengers on the same plane between NYC and LAX/SFO was restricted by requiring the aircraft to stop in Atlanta and one other stop or Atlanta and Dallas.
 
PacificClipper
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:52 am

Quoting timz (Reply 8):
Anybody seen pics of Terminal 2 when it was new? Seems to me it had its three airlines names on the front of the terminal. Braniff, NW... was the other one NE?
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9):
I think the order on the facade, from left to right, was Northeast Braniff Northwest, but I'm not sure.


You are correct.
JFK T2
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mayor
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 18):
In fact, DL did not operate nonstop JFK-LAX/SFO until 1990, eighteen years after deregulation.

I think your math is a little off............deregulation started in '78, not, according to your math, '72.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
tonystan
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):

The nose and cockpit windows make it look like it's going 600 MPH at the gate.

What a plane AND what a livery! Always loved the old Widget!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
milesrich
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RE: Delta Air Lines JFK Terminal 1970

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting varsity (Reply 19):
I remember being at RSW about ten years ago and there was a WN flight boarding with a routing like that... it was something like RSW-MSY-DAL-LAS-OAK. I wondered if it was being operated with a 737 or if they had code-shared with Amtrak's Sunset Limited.

Very funny, but the Sunset Limited only ever served one of those cities, MSY.

NA used to operate some multi stops to the west coast MIA-MLB-TPA-MSY-LAX-SAN

or through FMY MIA-PBI-FMY-SRQ-TPA-JFK-BOS

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