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817Dreamliiner
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Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:09 am

From Flightglobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ailure-over-787-deliveries-377099/

Was only a matter of time I guess... Still no firm delivery date.
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:35 am

To quote a line from the article:

"With no firm delivery date currently in sight, Al Baker says the airline "now has to look at all our options"

They're starting to play hard ball!
 
AA737-823
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:46 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
They're starting to play hard ball!

When is Al Baker NOT playing hardball!?!?!
He's one step this side of Mike O'Leary on the insanity scale...
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:47 am

Anyone wanna bet it'll be a repeat of the Cargolux 747-8F saga? The Mouthful One will b*tch in the media until he'll get "undisclosed settlement" from Boeing to quiet him down.
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scouseflyer
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:25 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
When is Al Baker NOT playing hardball!?!?!
He's one step this side of Mike O'Leary on the insanity scale...

I know that "negotiaing through the media" seems to be how ME airlines do business but it does seem rather bad tempered and I wonder whether it taints future deals that they airlines look for with the suppliers.

Does seem odd that the 787 went to Farnborough painted up in QR colours but it is still not clear when it's going to be delivered
 
smi0006
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:43 am

What exactly is the delay? Why won't AAB let QR take delivery?
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:09 am

well they should have had one yesterday, not sure sure if that happened,

best way to follow the 787 program is keep an eye on http://nyc787.blogspot.hk/ seems to keep most people up to date better then Boeing does!

however they have found a little problem media reports said that there is a second 787 that had a cracked fan mid-shaft. hope this does not effect whats on the line at the moment, or if the problem could get worse!
Vietnam time..
 
kaitak
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
When is Al Baker NOT playing hardball!?!?!
He's one step this side of Mike O'Leary on the insanity scale...

I can't really blame AAB here; if I were in his position, I'd be pretty darn annoyed; here we are, about 3-4 weeks before the Winter schedule is due to start and still no delivery. This puts a massive amount of pressure on any airline's planning, because basically, everything else has to be rejigged and schedules have to be reworked. It must be a huge pain for any airline, but particularly a rapidly growing one.
 
shankly
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 4):
Does seem odd that the 787 went to Farnborough painted up in QR colours but it is still not clear when it's going to be delivered

Not in the context of the 787 programme....remember the original rollout?

I do however wonder what the reciprocal pressure was from AB to get his 787 at Farnborough?....perhaps this has come back to bite Boeing in the bum

Lose the Ryder Cup and then have Al B bark at you in the morning...its going to be a tough day for our American cousins
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autothrust
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
now has to look at all our options

Qatar Airways i know a great solution it's called A330-300!   
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 6):
best way to follow the 787 program is keep an eye on http://nyc787.blogspot.hk/

How accurate is this? It shows 26 B-787s delivered and 2 are ready for delivery to QR. I though Boeing has only delivered 19 or 20 B-787s by now.

QRs LN-57, ZA-460, A7-BCA is in "Pre-Flight Prep" and LN-58, ZA-461, A7-BCB is showing "Ready For Delivery".
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 9):
Qatar Airways i know a great solution it's called A330-300!

Im not sure what the second hand market is like?...

But I highly doubt Airbus would be able to off load to Qatar a load of A330's at short notice in the next year or so, to cover the airlines short-comings of 787's.

While the A330 is considered yesterdays technology, compared to the likes of the 787 and A350 it is still selling strong and has a considerable backlog still.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Al Baker says the airline "now has to look at all our options"

Im not sure what other options they have, other than holding tight. Maybe possibly wet leasing aircraft from the likes of Jet Airways or Kingfisher, like Gulf Air did a few years back. Or obtaining some A340-300 from the secondhand market for 2-3 years and just have to absorb the higher operating costs over operating the 787's until they arrive.
 
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):

How accurate is this? It shows 26 B-787s delivered and 2 are ready for delivery to QR. I though Boeing has only delivered 19 or 20 B-787s by now.

It's accurate. I know since I put it together. Boeign hasn't delivered 19-20 787s. They're delivering the 26th today (23 of this year).
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
dynamicsguy
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
How accurate is this? It shows 26 B-787s delivered and 2 are ready for delivery to QR. I though Boeing has only delivered 19 or 20 B-787s by now.

Number delivered is accurate. Expected delivery dates often aren't accurate since they are based on a snapshot of schedules which change constantly (and do so for mature programs as well as for the 787) and tend to move to the right.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:14 pm

Sounds like cargolux again. Now that there are two 787d ready to go al b starts bitching about it, in attempt to gain financial leverage.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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par13del
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
I can't really blame AAB here; if I were in his position, I'd be pretty darn annoyed;
Quoting shankly (Reply 8):
I do however wonder what the reciprocal pressure was from AB to get his 787 at Farnborough?....perhaps this has come back to bite Boeing in the bum

Reason why Boeing was dam*** if you do dam**** if you don't, they did not want to have the a/c at the air show and they caved, now they are being blasted and being the company that they are, cannot say I told you so. The engine issue may also be a factor, which Boeing as the final integrator is still responsible.
Always best to stick to your guns rather than circumventing, I still don't think they shoud have done a flying demonstration.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 4):
Does seem odd that the 787 went to Farnborough painted up in QR colours but it is still not clear when it's going to be delivered.

As I understand it, AAB has refused to take delivery of that airframe because the interior needs to be refurbished and there is an issue with the OnAir Internet connectivity to the THALES IFE system.

On the first part, considering AAB was the one who told Boeing to send the plane to Farnborough and then opened it up for the press to run around it and try it out, I find it a bit cheeky to then complain about the plane being in less than perfect condition.

As to the second part, sounds like a vendor problem for a customer-furnished equipment item, so AAB should be raking OnAir and THALES over the coals, not Boeing, unless the issue is with how Boeing installed the systems.
 
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PW100
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
How accurate is this? It shows 26 B-787s delivered and 2 are ready for delivery to QR. I though Boeing has only delivered 19 or 20 B-787s by now

It is extremely accurate on deliveries, line moves etc. So in that respect it is a very useful site. You can count on those numbers!

I do find it's outlook to future deliveries somewhat optimistic. Each start of the month it is expecting (or hoping) for more deliveries than eventually take place. Perhaps this is a reflection on optimistic scheduling by Boeing. It seems that their days of underpromising and over delivering are well behing us.

Still I find the site very usefull and I check it out on a daily basis. So kudos and many thanks to Uresh NYC777!

PW100
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tonystan
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
He's one step this side of Mike O'Leary on the insanity scale...

Beat me too it. You should try workng for the guy (AAB)....not a walk in the park!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
art
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 9):
Qatar Airways i know a great solution it's called A330-300!

Flightglobal is talking of Qatar Airways seeking A330 for delivery from 2013:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-deal-in-wake-of-787-delay-377158/

Can this be serious?
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting art (Reply 19):
Flightglobal is talking of Qatar Airways seeking A330 for delivery from 2013:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-deal-in-wake-of-787-delay-377158/

Can this be serious?

It could be only semi-serious to give Boeing some focus because they're going to have to pay a good price for A330s so soon as there's over 250 in the backlog currently unless there's a second airline involved who'd like to sell there places in the queue?
 
art
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:48 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting art (Reply 19):
Flightglobal is talking of Qatar Airways seeking A330 for delivery from 2013:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-deal-in-wake-of-787-delay-377158/

Can this be serious?

It could be only semi-serious to give Boeing some focus because they're going to have to pay a good price for A330s so soon as there's over 250 in the backlog currently unless there's a second airline involved who'd like to sell there places in the queue?

If late delivery of 787 has disrupted winter schedule plans, they are now history. So what's the point of talking to Airbus about A330? If the problem is a shortage of metal, 787's would be delivered before any A330 could be so why bother even thinking of ordering A330? Short of considering cancelling 787's it seems pointless to me.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting art (Reply 21):
If late delivery of 787 has disrupted winter schedule plans, they are now history. So what's the point of talking to Airbus about A330? If the problem is a shortage of metal, 787's would be delivered before any A330 could be so why bother even thinking of ordering A330? Short of considering cancelling 787's it seems pointless to me

Seems similarly pointless to me too unless they want to punish B for spoiling the Winter season.
 
parapente
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:54 am

Quite how Boeing manage to talk about a new flavour of the 787 - the 10, when they clearly cannot get existing orders out of the door with a backlog of 800 - which will, at this rate, take a decade to clear is beyond me.It is just plain rude to your exisitng customers.
 
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zkokq
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting parapente (Reply 23):

Most orders will probably be upgraded to the 781. So why not get in the queue.
 
frigatebird
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting parapente (Reply 23):

As usual very quick to blame Boeing. I guess you haven't read this:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
As I understand it, AAB has refused to take delivery of that airframe because the interior needs to be refurbished and there is an issue with the OnAir Internet connectivity to the THALES IFE system.

On the first part, considering AAB was the one who told Boeing to send the plane to Farnborough and then opened it up for the press to run around it and try it out, I find it a bit cheeky to then complain about the plane being in less than perfect condition.

As to the second part, sounds like a vendor problem for a customer-furnished equipment item, so AAB should be raking OnAir and THALES over the coals, not Boeing, unless the issue is with how Boeing installed the systems.
Quoting art (Reply 19):
Flightglobal is talking of Qatar Airways seeking A330 for delivery from 2013:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-deal-in-wake-of-787-delay-377158/

Can this be serious?

As I understood it, QR ordered 788s to replace their A332 fleet. And how AAB thinks Airbus can give him mid 2013 delivery slots is beyond me.

Guess he wants more compensation Cargolux 748F style. Or put pressure on rumoured negotiations with Boeing for 789s (should QR's order for A358s be cancelled, but this still very much a rumour).
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scbriml
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting art (Reply 21):
Short of considering cancelling 787's it seems pointless to me.

Maybe that is something that's being considered?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
As to the second part, sounds like a vendor problem for a customer-furnished equipment item, so AAB should be raking OnAir and THALES over the coals, not Boeing, unless the issue is with how Boeing installed the systems.

Presumably, both have been certified by on the 787 and integrated by Boeing?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
NYC777
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 23):
Quite how Boeing manage to talk about a new flavour of the 787 - the 10, when they clearly cannot get existing orders out of the door with a backlog of 800 - which will, at this rate, take a decade to clear is beyond me.It is just plain rude to your exisitng customers.

What you said is pure BS and you know it. Boeing has been ramping up production and delivereiss over the last few months and have a lot of 787s that are in the process of being delivered or will be out on the flight line soon. U-Turn Al is making another play for publicity because that is all this egomaniac cares about.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
brindabella
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 27):
What you said is pure BS and you know it. Boeing has been ramping up production and delivereiss over the last few months and have a lot of 787s that are in the process of being delivered or will be out on the flight line soon. U-Turn Al is making another play for publicity because that is all this egomaniac cares about.

Hi NYC777!

Don't bite. t's not worth it. Waste of time & effort.

Just keep the super web-site going!

cheers,
Bill
       
Billy
 
NYC777
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting brindabella (Reply 28):
Hi NYC777!

Don't bite. t's not worth it. Waste of time & effort.

Just keep the super web-site going!

cheers,
Bill

Thanks!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:32 pm

Here is some additional information about the hold-up:

No Boeing 787 delivery until engine fault fixed - Qatar Airways

[Edited 2012-10-02 07:40:33]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
art
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 30):
Here is more information:

No Boeing 787 delivery until engine fault fixed - Qatar Airways

Which will take how long? Has the manufacturer already come up with a fix?

Edit: In any event, a fault in the engine that has only recently come to light(I think) is nothing to do with any failure on Boeing's part.

[Edited 2012-10-02 07:44:54]
 
brindabella
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 30):
Here is more information:

No Boeing 787 delivery until engine fault fixed - Qatar Airways

Ah! - now we see the real target! The hare is running!

(Years ago, I had a couple of computer firms. There were some customers who, in retrospect, we really, really regretted selling systems to!)
(Given the addiitional, preposterous problems with the AI deliveries, i can't help but cast a jaundiced eye when B boasts abount the "quality" of their order-book!)

 
Billy
 
mffoda
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting brindabella (Reply 32):
(Given the addiitional, preposterous problems with the AI deliveries, i can't help but cast a jaundiced eye when B boasts abount the "quality" of their order-book!)

But, They can get A330's in mid-13 (9 months?)..

What does that say about the " "quality" of their order-book!" for the A330?   
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
sirtoby
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 33):
What does that say about the " "quality" of their order-book!" for the A330?

I would say nothing in the first place. It just could mean that there are a few delivery positions left between all the deliveries for the high quality customers...
 
mffoda
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 34):
I would say nothing in the first place. It just could mean that there are a few delivery positions left between all the deliveries for the high quality customers...

So, you don't see a problem with the 330's order-book... But you do with the 787's, as does the poster that I directed my comment to?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 23):
Quite how Boeing manage to talk about a new flavour of the 787 - the 10, when they clearly cannot get existing orders out of the door with a backlog of 800 - which will, at this rate, take a decade to clear is beyond me.It is just plain rude to your exisitng customers.

The problem isn't with Boeing, it's with GE.

As noted up-thread, QR won't take delivery until GE fixes the mid-fan-shaft issue. So Boeing's as much a hostage as QR is and AAB should be threatening GE with a Trent 1000 order if he wants action.
 
brindabella
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 35):
Quoting sirtoby (Reply 34):
I would say nothing in the first place. It just could mean that there are a few delivery positions left between all the deliveries for the high quality customers...

So, you don't see a problem with the 330's order-book... But you do with the 787's, as does the poster that I directed my comment to?

Cut! Cut! Please!!!!

The point is, Al Baker is just negotiating through the press.

He's not going to buy new A330s - there aren't any.

(Or so I sincerely hope! I regard both OEMs' order books as being driven by the bean-counters, NOT the salesmen.
IF HE CAN GET A330s SOON THE AIRBUS BOOK IS ALL B......S!!)
(Which, BTW, I don't believe for one moment.)

The A330 is hot, hot, hot.

It beggars belief that he can get any new A330s in anything less than geological time.

Not everyone is well-mannered, as you obviously are.

cheers,
Bill
Billy
 
astuteman
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting art (Reply 21):
If the problem is a shortage of metal, 787's would be delivered before any A330 could be so why bother even thinking of ordering A330? Short of considering cancelling 787's it seems pointless to me.

Mmmm.
I'm sure it's so much a "when, more a "how many"

How many 787's should he have had by now?
And how many should he have had in say 3 years time?

If QR still see much of the demand that was there originally when they placed the order, then the only way to fill that is by ordering A330's alongside the 787's.

For me that scenario would be absolutely no different to EK ordering 777's in large numbers to protect their capacity as the A350-1000 has slipped.

Not saying it WILL happen, by the way

Quoting brindabella (Reply 37):
It beggars belief that he can get any new A330s in anything less than geological time

I'm not sure I agree

The current backlog is 323 and the delivery rate is topping 90 per year.
That's a total backlog of little over 3 years.
And orders have been relatively slow the last 2 years - i don't think I'd characterise them as "hot, hot, hot" myself. Steady maybe.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were "some" slots available later next year, or that Airbus could negotiate some into place...

Rgds
 
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Stitch
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 38):
If QR still see much of the demand that was there originally when they placed the order, then the only way to fill that is by ordering A330's alongside the 787's.

I just don't see GE needing 12 months to provide fixed GEnx engines. So QR should be able to get one-third to one-half of their 787s before the first A330-200 could arrive.

I can see QR placing an order for A330-300s as expansion or protection against additional slips in A350-900 deliveries. But I don't see them placing an A330-200 order - at least because they're waiting on 787-8s.

[Edited 2012-10-02 10:09:16]
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:13 pm

G'day

Quoting mffoda (Reply 33):
What does that say about the " "quality" of their order-book!" for the A330?
Quoting brindabella (Reply 37):
He's not going to buy new A330s - there aren't any.

While the overall quality of the A 330 order book appears solid, there are some less than "solid" customers in there, Kingfisher, Libyan come to mind. Also some Chinese orders have not yet been firmed up leaving some slots that could be made available short term on a first come first serve basis.

So I see some possibility that this may materialize, if Qatar is really that desperate for additional lift short term.   

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
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par13del
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting brindabella (Reply 32):
Ah! - now we see the real target! The hare is running!

I think we already knew this, AI did the same thing, part of their delay was also related to the engine issue.
The engine issue just added an additional delay to the interior that needed to be repaired after the show, you really expect them to complain about that in public when they have an engine error they can use?

However, as mentioned up thread, as the final integrator, Boeing is on the hook to get the a/c out, whether they have to deal with GE on the back end is not the customers concerb. I think since Boeing will always get grief when there is an engine problem, they should be more involved or at least get a bigger cut of the engine sale and maintenance price, just a thought.
 
NYC777
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RE: Al Baker Blasts Boeings Failure Of 787 Deliveries

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:03 pm

According to Strategic Aero, Qatar is to receive it's 1st 787 this week (contractual delviery) followed by a delivery ceremony around Oct. 17th.

http://is.gd/voFLNH
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