Flyingsottsman
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US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:53 am

Outside of the US does London Heathrow have the most amount of US carriers in at one time, I remember flying into LHR for the very first time in 1985 and was amazed at how many Pam Am aircraft were in at LHR I know they had a European feeder netwotk to LHR but looking at pictures of LHR you can count up to maybe 10 AA aircraft at the gates maybe 6 or 7 UA aircraft at different gates not to mention DL and does US Air fly into LHR to, and also is that the same with JFK and BA how many of their aircraft are in at any time ?
 
jfk777
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:23 am

In the summer AA has ahd asmany as 17 flights daily to LHR, United would have the second largest with about 15. Delta has about 8 and US has one from Philadelphia.

BA has 7 744 to JFK, BA is unique as they have their own JFK terminal.
 
flyiguy
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:53 am

I don't know. NRT has intra UA and DL flights so with their banks of aircraft it may be NRT over LHR. Can anyone confirm this ???

FLY
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jfk777
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 2):
I don't know. NRT has intra UA and DL flights so with their banks of aircraft it may be NRT over LHR. Can anyone confirm this ???

There are not as many US flights to Narita since most airlines fly only once daily per route with rare double daily operations on a few routes like UA from SFO to NRT. For LHR is very common to have multiple daily flights from several hubs, no airline from New York flies less then 3 times daily. AA & UA fly atleast 3 times daily from ORD to LHR.
 
flyiguy
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
There are not as many US flights to Narita since most airlines fly only once daily per route with rare double daily operations on a few routes like UA from SFO to NRT. For LHR is very common to have multiple daily flights from several hubs, no airline from New York flies less then 3 times daily. AA & UA fly atleast 3 times daily from ORD to LHR.

The question was how many us carrier flights in at one time. I was wondering about all the intra asias flights that UA and DL run on top of flights to the USA.


FLY
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
vv701
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Thread starter):
is that the same with JFK and BA how many of their aircraft are in at any time ?

There are a maximum of ten BA flights to JFK:

BA117: scheduled arrival 11.00, departure as BA176 at 19.30

BA175: scheduled arrival 12.35, departure as BA172 at 21.30

BA173: scheduled arrival 13.55, departure as BA112 at 18.50

BA177: scheduled arrival 15.30, departure as BA174 at 19.10

BA001: scheduled arrival 17.15, departure as BA112 at 19.10

BA115: scheduled arrival 17.25, departure as BA114 at 21.50

BA113: scheduled arrival 18.40, departure as BA116 at 20.40

BA003: scheduled arrival 20.20, departure as BA004 at 21.30

BA179: scheduled arrival 20.55, departure as BA182 at 22.55

BA183: scheduled arrival 22.35, departure as BA178 at 08.00

So if we assume that aircraft operate to schedule and that those scheduled to arrive and depart on the hour or half hour are on the ground at that time we get the following pattern at the hour and half hour of BA aircraft on the ground at JFK Tuesday through Friday:

From 00.00 to 08.00: 1 aircraft

From 08.30 to 10.30: 0 aircraft

From 11.00 to 12.30: 1 aircraft

Ftom 13.00 to 13.30: 2 aircraft

From 14:00 to 15.00: 3 aircraft

From: 15.30 to 16.30: 4 aircraft

From 17.00 to 19.00: 6 aircraft

At 19.30: 4 aircraft

At 20.00: 3 aircraft

From 20.30 to 21:30: 4 aircraft

From 22.00 to 00.00: 1 aircraft
 
incitatus
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Thread starter):
I remember flying into LHR for the very first time in 1985 and was amazed at how many Pam Am aircraft were in at LHR I know they had a European feeder netwotk

It is possible that PA's presence at LHR was not as big as you might remember. In an early 80s timetable, the transatlantic service on PA had 9 departures: 3 x JFK plus IAH, LAX, MIA, SFO, SEA, IAD. LHR to IAH, SEA and one of the JFK flights were on L1011s. The other six were 747s. That was Summer service. For the Winter some routes were flown less than daily.
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zrs70
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):

Is the JFK terminal still called the BA terminal?
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spiritair97
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
BA001: scheduled arrival 17.15, departure as BA112 at 19.10

I believe you mean departure as BA002.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 7):
Is the JFK terminal still called the BA terminal?

Not really. It's now just known as Terminal 7, as US, UA, IB, FI, BA, QA, QK, and ExpressJet (UA) fly out of it. It also has a large United Channel-Letter Sign out front with the tulip, meaning it's been there for a while.
 
jfk777
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 8):
Not really. It's now just known as Terminal 7, as US, UA, IB, FI, BA, QA, QK, and ExpressJet (UA) fly out of it. It also has a large United Channel-Letter Sign out front with the tulip, meaning it's been there for a while.

ITs the BA terminal, T7. BA and Air Canada were the two original airline anchors. They leased half of it United, a deal from a 1987 code-share deal UA and BA had. IB, Qantas, Cathay are handled by BA and are OW alliance members. ANA also uses it as for the NRT to JFK 77W flights.
 
spiritair97
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
ITs the BA terminal, T7. BA and Air Canada were the two original airline anchors. They leased half of it United, a deal from a 1987 code-share deal UA and BA had.

Didn't know that. I was always wondering why UA, being a Star Alliance member, and BA, being a OW member, coexisted so closely. Thanks for clearing that up!!!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
ITs the BA terminal, T7. BA and Air Canada were the two original airline anchors.

In the early years of the BA terminal I expect AC was the largest operator in terms of frequency but probably not capacity. In 1974 AC had 14 daily departures from JFK, 7 each to YYZ and YUL, all DC-9-32.
 
simairlinenet
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Thread starter):
Outside of the US does London Heathrow have the most amount of US carriers in at one time

I'd put big-time money on Cancun on Saturdays in winter. Maybe not as many passengers, but certainly the most aircraft.
 
neveragain
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:59 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
In the summer AA has ahd asmany as 17 flights daily to LHR, United would have the second largest with about 15. Delta has about 8 and US has one from Philadelphia.

What this exercise really requires is a matched flight schedule for each of the four US-based carriers operating from LHR. This, of course, if difficult to prepare without some sort of firsthand observations or access to airline operational data to track individual airframes and how they rotate through the system.

I am most familiar with the UA (excluding pre-merger CO) and US operations out of Terminal 1 at LHR. UA has a reasonable amount of flexibility in how it allocates the 5x 772 flights it has per day out of LHR between IAD, SFO, and LAX. In the event of delays or cancellations, UA can (and does) reallocate a 772 scheduled to operate to IAD to one of the west coast stations and vice versa. With the mismatch in onboard product between the reconfigured and old cabin 772s this makes it a bit of a guessing game for the passenger as to which version of the plane will actually operate that day's flight.

The operation during the Summer 2012 schedule season is roughly as follows, with times reflecting arrival/departure time at LHR. Listed in order of arrival time at LHR:

UA922 IAD 21:55 ---> 763 ---> UA922 ORD 07:45 (the only UA RON)
UA958 ORD 05:55 ---> 763 ---> UA923 IAD 07:55
UA918 IAD 06:20 ---> 772 ---> UA919 IAD 10:25
UA954 SFO 07:10 ---> 772 ---> UA955 SFO 10:35
UA130 IAD 07:30 ---> 752 ---> UA121 IAD 13:05
UA928 ORD 08:25 ---> 763 ---> UA949 ORD 12:20
US728 PHL 10:00 ---> 333 ---> US729 PHL 12:15
UA924 IAD 10:10 ---> 772 ---> UA935 LAX 12:00
UA938 ORD 11:15 ---> 763 ---> UA959 ORD 15:20
UA934 LAX 12:15 ---> 772 ---> UA931 SFO 14:10
UA930 SFO 14:05 ---> 772 ---> UA925 IAD 16:20

Would note that UA130 appeared mid-summer and replaced a daily 763 between IAD and LHR.

If everything ran perfectly according to schedule, there would be six UA/US aircraft on stand between 10:10 and 10:25 (3x 772, 1x 333, 1x 763, 1x 752).

Now if somebody more familiar with the setup at LHR T3 (for AA) and T4 (for DL and pre-merger CO) could do a similar exercise we could answer the original question!

[Edited 2012-10-02 02:03:03]

[Edited 2012-10-02 02:10:48]
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
BA has 7 744 to JFK, BA is unique as they have their own JFK terminal.

I didnt know they had their own terminal @ JFK BA must be the only airline that has its own terminal in a forgin country New York City must the most important route for BA.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 6):
It is possible that PA's presence at LHR was not as big as you might remember. In an early 80s timetable, the transatlantic service on PA had 9 departures: 3 x JFK plus IAH, LAX, MIA, SFO, SEA, IAD. LHR to IAH, SEA and one of the JFK flights were on L1011s. The other six were 747s. That was Summer service. For the Winter some routes were flown less than daily.

Yes you might be right there, I do remember seeing a heap of PA tails when we landed that morning and a lot of them were 737s and 727s that would have been their European feeders to LHR maybe.  
 
jfk777
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 6):
It is possible that PA's presence at LHR was not as big as you might remember. In an early 80s timetable, the transatlantic service on PA had 9 departures: 3 x JFK plus IAH, LAX, MIA, SFO, SEA, IAD. LHR to IAH, SEA and one of the JFK flights were on L1011s. The other six were 747s. That was Summer service. For the Winter some routes were flown less than daily.

Houston was never flown by PA from LHR, it flew from Gatwick. The flight was flown by PA briefly for about one year when Continental was successful in concincing the DOT that they would be better at flying it since they had a hub in houston. PA may have stopped flight in the winter and flown passengers via JFK.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 am

"I didnt know they had their own terminal @ JFK BA must be the only airline that has its own terminal in a forgin country New York City must the most important route for BA."

It was unique until Air France, JAL, Korean, and Lufthansa built the gem known at T1 across the field.

It is still unique in the fact that BA is 1 vs a partnership of 4.

Back in the old days (1930s-1960s), each European steam ship company had their own pier on the West Side of Manhattan to receive the Ocean Liners from each respective country.

Germany, England and France, always has the biggest presence along with the United States Lines.

The United States Lines had the fastest and most modern ship (Still holds the record) but couldn't compare in terms of service to the other guys.

As much as things change...they stay the same.  
 
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STT757
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Back in the old days (1930s-1960s), each European steam ship company had their own pier on the West Side of Manhattan to receive the Ocean Liners from each respective country.

You can still see the name "White Star Line" on the remains of their former pier down by Chelsea market and Chelsea piers.
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vv701
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
Houston was never flown by PA from LHR, it flew from Gatwick.

Correct.

The Bermuda 2 Agreement restricted airlines operating between LHR and the USA and as well as the USA cities that could be served from LHR. These cities did not include Houston. So all direct flights between London and Houston were either operated from LGW or, in the case of BA, additionally through one of the Bermuda 2 listed American gateway cities.

Operators were initially restricted to BA, PA and TW. On the demise of PA Bermuda 2 was amended to allow BA, TW, UA and VS to fly between the USA and LHR.

Cities identified in Bermuda 2 that could be served from LHR were Anchorage, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York (EWR and JFK), Philadelphia, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington. For their indirect flights between LHR and IAH, BA chose at different times to use BWI or ORD as the gateway. (There were other indirect flights by other airlines. For example UA operated HNL-LAX-LHR but,although this 'flight' had a unified flight number there was a change of aircraft at LAX).

As these restrictions only applied to LHR, flights either by other operators and/or to and from other US gateway cities were operated out of LGW.
 
incitatus
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
Houston was never flown by PA from LHR, it flew from Gatwick

Thanks for the correction. I entirely overlooked the airport indicator:
http://www.departedflights.com/PA090882p18.html
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jfk777
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):
Operators were initially restricted to BA, PA and TW. On the demise of PA Bermuda 2 was amended to allow BA, TW, UA and VS to fly between the USA and LHR.

The Bermuda 2 always had a provison for a 2nd UK airline which is why British Caledonian wanted to move to LHR terminal 4. Virgin was the first second UK airline able to use LHR as its base in 1991. United took over from PA in early April 1991 & TWA stopped flying to LHR on June 30 1991. AA took over the TWA slots at LHR. The net effect of AA & TWA taking over was the British Government had to do away with their 1977 policy of every "new" airline to London getting "Gatwicked".

Many airline who started flying to the UK in the early 1980;s how had LHR access, IF they could get a slot. Air New Zealand, Cathay and ANA were among these "new" airlines. Since the Bermuda 2 was still in effect most US airline were stillat LGW except for the routes AA and UA took over from PA and TWA at LHR. SO AA's DFW flight was still a LGW operation since DFW was not a LHR city. The US airline would have to wait until 2008 for LHR to open to them, a bloody long time.
 
vv701
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RE: US Airlines And London Heathrow

Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
SO AA's DFW flight was still a LGW operation since DFW was not a LHR city. The US airline would have to wait until 2008 for LHR to open to them, a bloody long time.

Of course the same applied to BA.

BA operated out of LGW not only to DFW but also to PHX and, for a time, to SAN as well as operating indirect flights from LHR to IAH through first BWI and later ORD as well as the direct LGW-IAH service. This was because Phoenix, San Diego and Houston were not Bermuda 2 gateway cities. BA could not make LGW-SAN flights pay so the service was suspended until Bermuda 2 was superseded by Open Skies. Then the flights to PHX and IAH were moved to LHR and flights from LON to SAN were reinstated

For the same reason the inaugural BA flight to LAS quickly followed the demise of Bermuda 2. The first BA flight to LAS was not until October 2009 as Las Vegas was not a Bermuda 2 gateway city.

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