Gonzalo
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The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:39 am

The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market , has another weapon in the battlefield now.
The budget for the year 2013 will include a special treat for AR, and all the affiliate companies like Austral or JetPack. All the taxes for these companies will be condoned. This will add another level of imbalance to the already unfair environment for the free competition, since LAN Argentina must pay all the taxes.
We have now :
* 2 Million dollars daily subsidizing the airline's loses
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil
* Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1513198-f...ineas-un-extenso-perdon-impositivo

( And still there are some people who ask why there's a thread regarding this clowns every week...)
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JU068
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:24 am

Why doesn't the Argentinian government pay a consulting firm to fix the problems in AR? They would not be the first ones to do so.
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil

LAN Airlines operates SCL-AEP 3x daily! TAM Airlines operates GRU-AEP 3x daily!

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

LAN Argentina is a private airline; not a state owned company!

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.

Why? LAN dominates the SCL-AEP and SCL-EZE routes. AR/AU simply cannot compete with LAN in the free market; compare their operations to LAN's on the SCL-BUE and LIM-EZE routes. It's rumoured that AR will be returning an undisclosed number of A343s back to their lessor(s) next year. Guess which airline's A343s they want to buy?
 
vlad1971
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:19 am

Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .

Look at Lufthansa Italy brand- did not live for a long time, though LH is not to compare with AZ in terms of service .
I guess most of the passengers still prefer to fly their "National Carrier" rather then an intruder ...

Just my IMO ......
 
LVICS
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):

I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:00 pm

If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes? But until that it is rather low of the Argentinian government to say that AR and company don't have to pay taxes while LAN still does.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
Gonzalo
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting LVICS (Reply 4):
I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).

I'm glad to see that there are still people with the capability of seeing the deep implications of this "flag carrier" issue, and I find sad that, in contrast with you, a big number of the people of Argentina is not seeing this.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 5):
If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes?

I'm afraid that they are not so far from this. I bet you that until now the K administration find that measure too extreme only because of the poor public image of AR even inside Argentina, and probably all the flying public will protest against a law that eliminates their only option for better fares and service. But if the situation of AR doesn't improves ( the most probable future IMHO ), the next moves to ( desperately ) implement will be of that nature, I'm completely sure.

Rgds.
G.
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SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 6):
I'm afraid that they are

That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life. Currently, Argentina is in a recession while the Chilean, Colombian and Peruvian economies continue to show signs of strong economic growth. LATAM has a strong presence in that country and has created many jobs. For example, the number of Chileans traveling to Argentina has increased significantly as many pax take short trips to B.A. due to the devaluation of the Argentine Peso. LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route so that LAN Argentina can increase frequencies on certain domestic routes. It's interesting to note that while Argentina has a larger population than Chile, the Chilean domestic market is larger and continues to grow rapidly, (domestic traffic within Chile increased by 24% in August compared to August, 2011). Oh and LAN continues to operate non-stop flights between RGL and MPN!
 
art
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

Nobody? Everybody wants inferior service if that's what the flag carrier offers? Everyone is ready to pay more tax so their flag carrier can continue to operate and offer an inferior service to them?
 
757gb
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:12 pm

I could understand up to a point the "romantic" idea of saving the flag carrier and saving it from the "savage competition" from the larger carriers out there. But this is way beyond that. It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos. Unions for example know that they can get away with murder as far as interrupting services. There is no motivation to excellence as they know they will always be protected whether they do a great or an awful job. I'm not saying that's the case. In fact I flew AR recently after a long time and my impression was better than what I expected. I hope that could be consistent.

In the long run the customers suffer the consequences. Not to mention the Argentine taxpayer...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Gonzalo
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life.

I really, really hope you are right on both. But she is doing many things to modify the Constitution, with the ultimate goal of being re-elected one more time....Many years ago some Mr. Chavez did the same and....well, you know....
And regarding what can happen or not in Argentina, well, the 2001 breakdown, the REPSOL case and the prohibition ( to the general public but not for the friends and family of "K people" ) regarding the foreign money exchange, are just a sample of the certainty you can have in the country. Sorry, but ANYTHING can happen in Argentina.



Quoting 757gb (Reply 9):
It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos.

And the public who needs to fly is, by far, the biggest looser in this cases.

Rgds.
G.
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G500
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
( And still there are some people who ask why there's a thread regarding this clowns every week...)

is not just here. The financial times had an article yesterday, "Cristina Fernandez draws another yellow card from the IMF". It wasn't about the airlines but same type of stuff...

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market

For whatever reason you seem to think the Argentinian government has a personal thing against LAN.... they're pulling this stuff (protectionisim) in all industries to keep their economy from becoming unglue, they're even claiming inflation is only 10% when in reality is 20%.

Is not just LAN, but I see what you're saying
 
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pvjin
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm

Good, I greatly respect Argentinean government. I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
jfk777
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:34 pm

For all the uses the Government of Argentina has for a billion dollars subsidizing an airline is not the best use. Close the airline down and pension off the employees, its cheaper in the long run. AR is an anachronism in a modern time. IF It was 1930 it would be a great instrument if Argentina had an empire and needed air links to sustain it. Times have moved on, its time AR does too.
 
art
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.

I presume you are being sarcastic. I live in England and am one of those deprived citizens of a country with no subsidised flag carrier. We have to put up with British Airways which replaced BEA and BOAC of which we were all so, so proud. As well as that, we all miss having to finance the losses of our flag carriers so, so much.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:32 pm

Is AR an airline or a essential air-transportation provider or a reason to keep hundreds of Argentinean on a payroll?
If AR was an airline and managed as such, with some lean structure and optimal fleet, it may survive and do accomplish something among Latin America airlines..
The way I see it AR is on its way to become to Argentina what Conviasa is to Venezuela.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
OB1504
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

Tell that to the people of Peru and Ecuador. It's not LAN's fault that Aerolineas Argentinas is so terribly managed, nor should LAN be punished for it.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Good, I greatly respect Argentinean government. I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.

Because AR is a shining beacon of world-class service and reliability...   
 
SamuP
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:39 pm

Letting AR die and pensioning off the employees will open the market for private capital to start an Argentinian based airline to compete with LAN Argentina. There will be no tax revenues wasted on maintaining the AR dinosaur alive, many if not all of AR's employees could find employment with LAN Argentina's expansion in the domestic and Intl markets, or with the new private ventures that may arise. Furthermore, the Argentinian public (and for that matter the flying public in general) would benefit from having fair competition in the market, offering competitive pricing and products.

Flag carriers are a thing of the past ... some brands have survived, but the rule is they survived thanks to the government privatizing them ... there are examples everywhere. I would love to see the AR brand survive and thrive .. but I am certain this will not be the case if things continue this way. Argentina is a wonderful country and it deserves a world class (privately owned) airline!

  

Best regards to all my Argentinian friends   
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Is not just LAN, but I see what you're saying

LAN Argentina will offer up to 225 weekly domestic flights for the upcoming high season:

AEP-BHI 12x weekly A-320
AEP-BRC 29x weekly A-320
AEP-COR 31x weekly A-320
AEP-CRD 8x weekly A-320
AEP-IGR 25x weekly A-320
AEP-UAQ-MDZ 5x weekly A-320
AEP-MDZ 26x weekly A-320
AEP-NQN 3x daily A-320
AEP-RGL 4x weekly A-320
AEP-SLA 20x weekly A-320
AEP-TUC 20x weekly A-320
AEP-FTE-USH weekly A-320
AEP-USH 9x weekly A-320
EZE-FTE daily A-320
EZE-USH daily A-320

Source: LAN.com

LAN will also increase capacity on certain regional routes, i.e. SCL-MDZ 3x daily A-320, SCL-COR 2x daily A-320, LIM-COR daily A-319, and will resume seasonal flights on the SCL-IQQ-SLA route 2x weekly A-320.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .

Well ... I'm not. One thing is trying to save AR, another thing is increasing it's deficit every month at our expense. I would prefer my tax money to go where things are really a necessity and not in air travel, a good that is used by a very small percentage of the population. And if I really have to do this, at least I would expect the company to run like a proiper company, and not a freaking monopoly. The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...

Why are they scared of LAN? Is it because they can only control domestic airfares within Argentina and not international airfares and foreign customers that want to travel within Argentina usually pay higher airfares and tend to fly on LAN? Is AR starting to feel the pressure with LAN and TAM combining and the number of regional flights that LATAM operates into Argentina; especially AEP/EZE via their hubs at GIG, GRU, LIM, and SCL?
 
jfk777
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:47 pm

AR has always been at a geographic disadvantage at the end of Latin America. The Brazilian airlines use EZE as a great feeder for GRU. TAM operates A330's regularly from Sao Paulo to Buenos Aires.
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
The Brazilian airlines use EZE as a great feeder for GRU. TAM operates A330's regularly from Sao Paulo to Buenos Aires.

LAN operates LIM-EZE 3x daily with the B763 and SCL-EZE 50x weekly and will soon deploy the 787 on the route 22x weekly.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

I've never read such rubbish in my entire life. Nobody wants a service that is better in every aspect if its foreign? LOL what planet are you living on, Probably the same one as the Argentinian government. They are morons on every level.. Embarassing Argentina every day in every way.

The only people that lose out are Argentinians watching their taxes go down a black hole of fail.
 
C010T3
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA

LAN Argentina has tried multiple times to start EZE-GIG service, but was barred by the Argentinian ANAC even though there were and there still are available frequencies for Argentinian airlines.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route

How many frequencies are there for Chilean airlines to fly to Argentina? How many are still available? I ask, because the Brazil-Argentina bilateral agreement has been maxed out for years on the Brazilian side, but Argentina refuses an amendment.
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 24):
How many frequencies are there for Chilean airlines to fly to Argentina? How many are still available?

Chile has "Open Skies" with Argentina. Currently Chilean carriers operate 110 weekly frequencies between Chile and Argentina. LAN Airlines operates SCL-AEP 3x daily, SCL-EZE 41x weekly, SCL-MDZ 3x daily, and SCL-COR 2x daily. H2 operates SCL-EZE 13x weekly. LAN Ecuador operates SCL-EZE 2x weekly using Fifth Freedom Rights and LAN Perú operates SCL-EZE daily as well. G3 just discontinued services between EZE and SCL and AC will operate SCL-EZE 5x weekly using Fifth Freedom Rights.

Argentine carriers currently use 33 weekly frequencies. LAN Argentina operates EZE-SCL daily. Currently, AU operates EZE-MDZ-SCL daily with the E90 and AEP-SCL 18x weekly with the E90. AR operates AEP-SCL weekly with the B737.
 
ghost77
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
This will add another level of imbalance to the already unfair environment for the free competition, since LAN Argentina must pay all the taxes.

Unfair??? Well, don´t you want to understand or don´t you have a clue about politics? And that the current leftist government won´t change and that they don´t care if they go over LAN´s interests. LAN doesn´t matter, they don´t care as long as they have a big and pride Argentine airline.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
We have now :
* 2 Million dollars daily subsidizing the airline's loses
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil
* Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

Oh poor LAN, poor LAN! The world´s doesn´t turn around LAN., please, another pointless thread of things that won´t change as long as the GOVERNMENT change.

See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.

g77
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 26):
See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.

Actually LAN is increasing frequencies into Bolivia next month by adding a third daily flight. LAN also holds the route authority to increase frequency on the LIM-HAV route. And FYI, LAN has Fifth Freedom Rights between CCS and MIA, but not between CUN and MIA.
 
C010T3
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
Chile has "Open Skies" with Argentina.

Is it a full open skies agreement or only local? If it's full, why doesn't LAN Chile fly SCL-EZE-XXX since LAN Argentina can't?
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 26):
See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 27):
Actually LAN is increasing frequencies into Bolivia next month by adding a third daily flight

I think you missed his point. He's saying that all those countries have their government control their airlines, whether or not they're profitable is a different thing. Argentina with AR is going the way of Venezuela with Conviasa, Cuba with Cubana, and Bolivia BoA. Especially with BoA where the government of Bolivia has shut down the competition in the past.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 28):
Is it a full open skies agreement or only local?

It's only between points in Chile and points in Argentina. Remember when PAL launched SCL-COR and LAN responded by increasing frequency on the route and PAL had a tantrum with the TDLC? However in the past the ANAC decided to pull LA operated flights into BRC and USH.

[Edited 2012-10-02 17:35:30]
 
andrefranca
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 1):
Why doesn't the Argentinian government pay a consulting firm to fix the problems in AR?

Because they are struggling to solve their own problems? Kischner now with 20% of popularity! ouch! what will be her next step?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
LAN Argentina is a private airline; not a state owned company!

That's the why AR shouldn't receive that many help, it's unfair competition, it goes against the basics of free-market trade, we're not in USSR!!!

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR

When RG was going down, the govt said: "enough is enough the company CAN'T make money anymore".

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ??

"Chile" took over our market already and if it's to provide better service, I'm in favor!

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):
The way I see it AR is on its way to become to Argentina what Conviasa is to Venezuela.

EXACTLY! How sad was to see Aeropostal being "boycotted" by Chavez and the others must be quiet otherwise he goes there and shut it!

I'm really concerned about VEN PAR ECU and ARG, can't even stand the idea of seeing south America back into the dark age!

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
Because AR is a shining beacon of world-class service and reliability...

I bet the stranded pax's in SYD and AKL can give you better ideas of first class treatment, LOL!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
Well ... I'm not. One thing is trying to save AR, another thing is increasing it's deficit every month at our expense.

and it will keep bleeding until heeeem next govt?
 
Arcano
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN

Actually, LAN stated last week that they have no news about Argentina denial, and called their relations with Argentine Government as "excellent". What's the truth behind this finally?

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL..

Thanks god they are! Do you really want LAN to become even more monopoly??
Besides, as critic as you are of Argentina populism, why our "so serious" country would ban a foreign airline to fly Chilean skies only as retaliation to a single company mistreated abroad? That would be as much manipulation as the other

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO

We would. We have so many many foreign companies running local and strategic business that we really don´t care. We love professional companies regardless their origins. In terms of aviation, Chile has unilateral open skies. Any company can fly domestically and be granted with full rights.



Finally, as personal thought, I really don't like what Argentina's Government does with AR and I do think is not loyal competition. But not seeing that AR is more than a company, it's a matter of national pride and a political instrument is pointless and simply it's not to understand the whole network behind.

Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

I do believe all this practices end up in denying Argentinos better chances, but it's up to them to decide if they want them or not.

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
C010T3
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

I do believe all this practices end up in denying Argentinos better chances, but it's up to them to decide if they want them or not.

That's the thing. People wouldn't have anything to complain about if the government declared AR's monopoly, but that did not happen. They are pretending to have an open market, but making it a monopoly through bureaucracy, not legislation.
LAN is constantly arguing that everything is super, because they want to be tolerated even without growth. Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever. When the current regime comes crumbling down, LAN will be in the best position to be the saviour of the Argentinian skies. That's how it works.
 
AR385
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
When RG was going down, the govt said: "enough is enough the company CAN'T make money anymore".

Right. And do tell, how many years (and bailouts) did that take?

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
That's the why AR shouldn't receive that many help, it's unfair competition, it goes against the basics of free-market trade, we're not in USSR!!!

But you see, what many don´t understand here, is that Argentina is not a free market economy anymore. has not been since 2002. It´s a Protectionist, Populist, Corporativist State, with an Import-Substitution Model. And the ARgentines voted for that. So, any company who expects to be treated like it would be in a free market economy is naive at best.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
Because they are struggling to solve their own problems? Kischner now with 20% of popularity! ouch! what will be her next step?

Meh. Popularity numbers are fickle, they come up they go down, and are dependent on who makes the poll. The truth is, Cristina was voted with 54% of the vote, the highest in Argentine history. Until the next election, barr a Revolution, that´s the only popularity number that matters.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
"Chile" took over our market already and if it's to provide better service, I'm in favor!

Argentina, given its "friendly" history with Chile (for example, just recently that Beagle affair that almost put the two countries at war, not to mention all the intelligence the Chileans provided to the British during the Malvinas war) will NEVER accept an airline as their national or local ariline that for all intents and purposes is Chilean and has a livery reminiscent of the Chilean flag. Now THAT would bring any government in Argentina down.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

The LAN group saw an opportunity and took it. It´s not that they are innocent victims. Argentina needed to scare Marsans into providing better service and management as well as competition to essentialy lower AR´s price. And they let the LAN Group in through LAN Argentina just for that purpose. What did the LAN group think would happen once AR became Nationalized again?

Many Latin American countries became disenchanted with the "Free Market" after what they saw as ruthless economic pain and suffering during the 90s. Some decided to stick with the model, some didn´t. The Argentines didn´t, and they´ve voted THREE times already for a different model. The one they have now.

LAN, deal with it.
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
They are pretending to have an open market, but making it a monopoly through bureaucracy, not legislation.

Have you noticed that AR now has certain "agreements" with both Sol Líneas Aéreas and BQB Líneas aéreas. Sol will feed AR/AU operated flights via a codeshare agreement. BQB will also codeshare with AR on routes between Uruguay and Argentina.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
LAN is constantly arguing that everything is super, because they want to be tolerated even without growth. Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever. When the current regime comes crumbling down, LAN will be in the best position to be the saviour of the Argentinian skies. That's how it works.

LAN is very pleased with its operations in Argentina and actively promotes traveling to Argentina and enjoys offering pax the ability to travel domestically on a reliable carrier. LAN also offers Argentine pax the option of traveling to various domestic and international destinations via SCL, LIM, GRU, GIG, GYE, and MIA. LAN is a carrier that has targeted certain markets years ago where legislation will eventually liberalize the aviation sector and certain markets where there will eventually be new legislation enacted to increase foreign ownership laws. LAN is already looking north of South America...
 
757gb
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 35):
Have you noticed that AR now has certain "agreements" with both Sol Líneas Aéreas and BQB Líneas aéreas. Sol will feed AR/AU operated flights via a codeshare agreement. BQB will also codeshare with AR on routes between Uruguay and Argentina.

Well that's thanks to the "brilliant" move by the UY government to shut Pluna down in one day... The void created was filled right away by AR. Now while they've been running around in circles trying to patch up the mess they made, the goverment gave BQB and Sol extra frequencies on a temporary basis. But when BQB went to operate them the best slots were all taken by AR. The slots available were simply not worth it as the loads were lousy. So they decided to go with the code share agreement with AR instead.

Half of Pluna's fleet was sold to Spanish charter operator Cosmo Airlines, which has no intention of operating anything down here. So again everyone is just staring at each other in confusion while they wait for uncle Hugo to win his election and fly down here with a wad of cash to start up another airline. Pathetic...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Gonzalo
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Besides, as critic as you are of Argentina populism, why our "so serious" country would ban a foreign airline to fly Chilean skies only as retaliation to a single company mistreated abroad?

I agree that we must stay within the limits of the laws, agreements and bilateral treaties signed in the past. But having one "partner" who is constantly, permanently and consistently breaking the rules of the game, I think some sort of retaliation is needed. We must send a signal, a warning, the name is not important. But we can't stay looking at the moon while the Chilean agreements, contracts and investments are under a dirty war and having all kind of problems.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever.

Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Many Latin American countries became disenchanted with the "Free Market" after what they saw as ruthless economic pain and suffering during the 90s. Some decided to stick with the model, some didn´t. The Argentines didn´t, and they´ve voted THREE times already for a different model. The one they have now.

True. A real sociological phenomena... it is really hard to believe that a supposedly cult and educated population can be so blind and vote again and again and again for a group of people plagued by corruption and bad practices. I could understand that attitude in a country with low levels of education, with famine and civil war issues like some poor nations in Africa, but it is really hard to understand how this kind of governments can succeed and last for so long in a country like Argentina. A couple of days ago a group of Harvard's students laughed out loud when Miss K said that she made her fortune because she was a "successful lawyer"...and regardless that level of shameless lies like that, they vote her two times. Truly amazing...

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

People will start to flee Argentina should it go the way of Venezuela. Even in stable democratic countries where there are currently high rates of unemployment, people are traveling to countries where there is strong economic growth looking for jobs. This is becoming common in Chile now with "tourists" arriving from certain European countries that have no intention of leaving Chile. Everyday, Chile is deporting "tourists" back to Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc.

[Edited 2012-10-02 21:00:42]
 
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pvjin
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
I could understand that attitude in a country with low levels of education, with famine and civil war issues like some poor nations in Africa

In those countries it is not only understandable but actually right thing to do... If you look how foreign corporations keep messing around in places like Congo completely ignoring all possible ethical issues within both environment and their workforce I think anything is better than that, even abandoning free market. Most governments there seem to be way too corrupted to implement proper laws to stop foreign corporations from stealing all the resources.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
SCL767
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:30 am

Quoting 757gb (Reply 36):
So again everyone is just staring at each other in confusion while they wait for uncle Hugo to win his election and fly down here with a wad of cash to start up another airline. Pathetic...

LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon. It will be interesting to see if any major carriers decrease flights into EZE in the near-term. Thus far, Qantas left EZE and switched over to SCL. AC will soon increase capacity into SCL while decreasing flights into EZE, (AC will soon operate YYZ-SCL-EZE 5x weekly and YYZ-SCL 2x weekly with the B77W). Perhaps BA will decrease frequency on the LHR-EZE route and launch LHR-SCL.
 
C010T3
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Right. And do tell, how many years (and bailouts) did that take?

What bailout? RG was never bailed out. RG was also never state-owned.
 
jfk777
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:49 am

The sad thing is that the Argentine Government is causing far wider damage to the entire airline economy there by supporting AR. IF LAN becomes the major native airline swallow your pride and be proud of it, its your new flag carrier.
 
757gb
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 40):
LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon.

Is that from SCL?
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
EZEIZA
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Actually, LAN stated last week that they have no news about Argentina denial, and called their relations with Argentine Government as "excellent". What's the truth behind this finally?

Well, try go public against the governent ...

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Do you really want LAN to become even more monopoly??

I certainly don't want to see AR becoming one.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Meh. Popularity numbers are fickle, they come up they go down, and are dependent on who makes the poll. The truth is, Cristina was voted with 54% of the vote, the highest in Argentine history. Until the next election, barr a Revolution, that´s the only popularity number that matters.

True, but legislative elections are next year, so numbers are important right now.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
What did the LAN group think would happen once AR became Nationalized again?

When Lan entered the Argentinie market thinbgs were very, very different. Nestor's presidency was not even close to being as restrictive and populist like Cristina's.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

amen

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
it is really hard to believe that a supposedly cult and educated population can be so blind and vote again and again and again for a group of people plagued by corruption and bad practices.

amen II
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
757gb
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
Well, try go public against the governent ...

Precisely... the other thing that I see is that with AR she got a double whammy: she can play as dirty as she wants and at election time say that she really fought for Argentina's interests. This doesn't stand against too much of an analysis, but most voters (what's important - the majority) don't take the time for that... She can appeal to the people's sense of pride and patriotism (heck, we see it here clearly enough in some cases).
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:14 pm

They way to save AR is to fix the Argentine economy. Problem Argentina has a Peron mentality that destroys the competitiveness of everything in the country.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 45):
This doesn't stand against too much of an analysis, but most voters (what's important - the majority) don't take the time for that... She can appeal to the people's sense of pride and patriotism (heck, we see it here clearly enough in some cases).

And in this specific case, it's even more important. The vast majority of voters don't even know where the airport is, and obviously don't have the means of using air travel. So basically she can use AR for propaganda purposes since these voters don't have a clue of what sh'e talking about
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
abrelosojos
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:33 pm

As much as I am a free market advocate, I am going to take the contrarian view as I am getting tired of the same old "poor LAN" syndrome that seems to be promoted by a few members with the same national flag. I am very much against poor airlines anywhere being propped up - from Argentina to Venezuela to Mali.

Thanks to our cozy political setup, there is a virtual oligopoly in Latin America - I am all for strong brands, but try setting up an airline anywhere else - or look at the response especially LAN has given when start-ups come in with their pricing behavior. To their credit, AVIANCA/TACA and COPA don't engage in that degree of predatory pricing. Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them, or how LAN acts to block route requests in Peru of the Peruvuan startups for international flights.

Finally, so much of LAN's success is due to the active role of the Chilean government - so I find it fascinating that Chileans are complaining about another country taking a role in their airline. Read up on Chile's Bilateral negotiations - especially with Peru and Bolivia. I mean, how big of a nexus is between big business and government when Sebastián Piñera becomes President and just happens to be LAN's major shareholder before having to give it up.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Thanks to our cosy political setup, there is a virtual oligopoly in Latin America - I am all for strong brands, but try setting up an airline anywhere else - or look at the response especially LAN has given when start-ups come in with their pricing behavior. To their credit, AVIANCA/TACA and COPA don't engage in that degree of predatory pricing.

Neither Avianca nor TACA have't been good for any airline start-up in Central America.. Aces Colombia, Aero Costa Rica and Tikal Jet (Guatemala) names just come to mind add to that TACA didn't really took advantage of the Panamanian airline Aero Perlas potential international traffic rights when it bought it.

Quote:
Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them, or how LAN acts to block route requests in Peru of the Peruvuan startups for international flights.

Perhaps if Peruvian airline start-ups would request international flights from airports other than LIM, LAN wouldn't flex muscle at Peru civil aviation authorities.

All this pro-AR attitude of the Argentinean establishment really scared any investor away from doing something with Argentina Andes Airlines.
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