aluminumtubing
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APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:23 pm

APA has agreed at their board meeting today to restart negotiations with AA. They expect to meet sometime this week. After backing off last week due to AA threatening to sue and due to another letter reinforcing their intention to further impose 1113 conditions, the APA did not want to further inflame the situation and decided to hold off releasing the strike ballot results due tomorrow or Thursday. They feel there is no need to further ratchet up the rhetoric. They will wait and see how serious AA is during the negotiations. As Joe Friday would have said, just the facts, ma'am.
 
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par13del
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Thread starter):
As Joe Friday would have said, just the facts, ma'am.

Just to be snippy, did AA state that they were willing to restart negotiations?  
Just kidding, we are all pulling for a resolution that will allow normal service and get AA out of chpt.11, personally, the battle I was interested in waging was against any merger with US, but I digress.

Best wishes to all who sit at the table, I suggest a hit of some Peace Pipes with the real stuff before sitting down, calms the nerves  
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 1):
we are all pulling for a resolution

Thanks, so am I. I am once again, hoping common sense and maturity will prevail. But the last time I held my breathe, I just passed out!
 
N766UA
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Thread starter):
They feel there is no need to further ratchet up the rhetoric.

A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?
This Website Censors Me
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?

Well, as I have stated on other threads, there is enough blame to go around on both sides. YES, BOTH SIDES. You do not appear to be open to the fact that there is more than meets the eye here.

AA came to APA over a week ago asking to restart negotiations. APA was planning to when AA ratcheted up the heat with the two letters. APA was not going to meet with AA continuing to apply pressure. APA has decided to not further ratchet up the rhetoric so hopefully things can cool down a bit and maybe, just maybe negotiations can be productive. I kind of think that is a good thing.

If you see my comments on other threads, I think you will find I am fairly realistic on what is happening.

If you think it is all one sided and that the APA and the pilots are terrible, well, I can't change your mind.

[Edited 2012-10-02 17:05:15]
 
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Acey559
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:01 am

I'm pulling for you all, aluminumtubing. Our TA vote concludes on Monday and many of us have looked to your side for guidance. Good luck to you!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:00 am

I hope it sticks this time. APA and AA management are like Israel and Palestine. Its too late to point fingers at just one side. They have both suffered for bad leadership and being out of touch with reality. Both groups seem to have tried to build a bridge to the 1990's.

I just hope the two can get through their hatred for each other for the sake of the flyer.
It is what it is...
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Out overnight and this morning, looks like the slowdown is having its intended (by some) effect: company appears to be beginning to back down. Now the critical question becomes if AMR will be willing to move sufficiently towards the APA's position to both (a) get at least 50%+1 to vote yes, and (b) not give away so much that the company's entire "standalone" business plan can't win out with the UCC over the merger/Parker alternative. (Of course, some believe (b) is already an inevitable given - we'll see.)

In other news, Tom Horton is "optimistic" and hopes to "put this chapter behind" everyone. For the sake of all involved, let's hope.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
not give away so much that the company's entire "standalone" business plan can't win out with the UCC over the merger/Parker alternative

While I don't share the view most of my fellow employees do regarding US being a savior, the business side of me has grave concerns regarding our "stand alone plan" as well. Personally I would much prefer to go it alone. I just don't believe long term it will be viable. Just more of the same. I would not invest any hard currency long term in a plan that has AA going it alone , that is for sure.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
company appears to be beginning to back down.

Laura Einspanier, American Airlines vice president of employee relations, informed pilots Tuesday night that the air carrier would hold off on implementing some unpopular changes to the pilots’ terms of employment.

In a letter to AA pilots, said the company was putting off the implementation of the changes “to help foster a constructive environment for us all.

Between that and the APA holding off releasing the strike vote today, it shows just maybe both sides aren't as untrainable as we all thought.

I know some might be curious which way I voted on the strike issue. I will only say that I waited until the last minute to vote, and that my vote was entirely unemotionally based. That alone could get me kicked out of the union and off this website. But, I digress.....  
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:00 pm

Here's what I am hoping for:

- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 10):
Here's what I am hoping for:

- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.

AMEN!!!
 
JAAlbert
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 10):
Here's what I am hoping for:
- Higher total salaries for all pilots
- Higher productivity for all pilots
- Higher trip efficiency for all pilots
- Safety minded changes
- Rough parity with DL and UA in pilot pay and productivity

I think this is definitely achievable very quickly.

AMEN!!!


I have been reading about the events involving AA over the past few weeks with a great deal of interest (plus my partner and I are scheduled to fly AA over the holiday and we chose AA specifically so we could try out the business class of AA's magnificent 777s). I've read all sorts of accusations and speculations and the like, what I haven't read is the specific contract terms that the parties can't agree to. As we all watch the negotiations begin again, perhaps now is a good time to learn what is at stake.

So here's my questions:

What were the major terms of the AA pilot contract before it was abrogated by the Court?
What does AA want in a new contract?
What do the Pilots want in a new contract?
What, if anything, has US promised the pilots?
What's the difference between DL, UA and AA pilot pay and productivity?
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 8):
the business side of me has grave concerns regarding our "stand alone plan" as well. Personally I would much prefer to go it alone. I just don't believe long term it will be viable.

Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Nonetheless, I do agree that the critical mass a USAirways merger would bring - on the East Coast in CLT, PHL and DCA - would be quite valuable to a new, combined entity. And speaking purely of employee relations, I also recognize that many AA employees would rather have a new CEO at the helm and are completely done with dealing with current AA management.

I guess the bottom line for me is that while I don't necessarily disagree with those that say an USAirways merger would strengthen AA and enhance the combined entity's value, I also don't necessarily disagree with those that say a standalone AA, with the right costs, union contracts and fleet, could also achieve substantially strength, growth and value creation.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 8):
Just more of the same.

From the management perspective, perhaps, but from the operational and product perspective, AA is in for some dramatic changes in the next couple of years - and I think many of them are in the right direction.

The AA "standalone" plan - both those portions of it that exist only in PowerPoint form as of today and the portions that are already tangibly rolling out - appears to envision turning over the vast majority of the fleet, significantly upgrading the ground and onboard hard product, enhancing the cabin experience, major investments in technology, etc., not to mention international network growth. At least from the perspective of customers, it at least appears that the next few years are not going to be "more of the same."

[Edited 2012-10-03 06:22:54]
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Short term, I can agree. Long term, as a serious investor, I just do not believe AA can go it alone. I personally think JetBlue would more than likely be a better option. Horton has my number, but I am sure it's not on his speed dial.
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
Personally, I think AA's considerable financial (RASM growth, etc.) and operational improvements (on-time, etc.) pre-slowdown do, to some extent, vindicate that AMR would be capable of succeeding as a standalone entity without a merger, or at least without a USAirways merger. I know there are some - including some AA employees - who actually would prefer JetBlue if a merger were to take place.

Correct. AA has been excellent up to mid-September. And it has been beating the pants off UA in the customer service department. I do think the merger will happen either way. I just hope it'll be after AA exits bk because the alternative will not be pretty for AA's employees or customers. I suspect Dougie will lead the combined airline one way or another, so that outcome won't change either.

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
From the management perspective, perhaps, but from the operational and product perspective, AA is in for some dramatic changes in the next couple of years - and I think many of them are in the right direction.

So true. The new planes, premium cabins, and MCE alone will dramatically change the flying experience for customers. If AA can not just keep customer service levels, but raise them, they CAN be unstoppable (since their principal competitors have essentially given up on the concept of customer service excellence).
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 15):
I do think the merger will happen either way. I just hope it'll be after AA exits bk because the alternative will not be pretty for AA's employees or customers. I suspect Dougie will lead the combined airline one way or another, so that outcome won't change either.

I tend to agree.

My concern about Parker revolves around the potential degradation to the product/service, and AAdvantage, both of which are already either excellent and/or soon to improve. Nonetheless, I agree that a merger is inevitable - either in or outside bankruptcy - and I think Parker will probably end up running the company either way. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I am just, like many other people, cautious.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 15):
So true. The new planes, premium cabins, and MCE alone will dramatically change the flying experience for customers. If AA can not just keep customer service levels, but raise them, they CAN be unstoppable

Agreed. AA with the right fleet, costs and union contracts, plus what will be among the best hard/soft product combinations in the U.S. industry, will be quite a competitor if they can get their house in order - with or without a merger.
 
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 9):
I know some might be curious which way I voted on the strike issue. I will only say that I waited until the last minute to vote, and that my vote was entirely unemotionally based.

This strike vote makes no sense. It is not even posturing, just a total waste of time.
Stop pop up ads
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:16 pm

Will the pensions convert to 401k?
It is what it is...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 12):
What were the major terms of the AA pilot contract before it was abrogated by the Court?
What does AA want in a new contract?
What do the Pilots want in a new contract?
What, if anything, has US promised the pilots?
What's the difference between DL, UA and AA pilot pay and productivity?

I second this question. What exactly are the differences between what the APA wants and what AMR offered?
What are the differences, besides the above, in scope clause?
What are the various unions willing to off to bring an 88 to 100 seater 'in house.' I believe the sticking point there might be ground handing at out stations.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
us330
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
I also recognize that many AA employees would rather have a new CEO at the helm and are completely done with dealing with current AA management.
Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
I also don't necessarily disagree with those that say a standalone AA, with the right costs, union contracts and fleet, could also achieve substantially strength, growth and value creation.

I'd like to see what AA could do with new leadership as a stand alone entity. The message from Arpey and his cohorts is stale--AA needs some new blood to reimagine the company, or at least develop some sort of vision that they can sell the employees on. IMHO, a merger w US Airways is an Arpey or an Arpey-acolyte move--managing, not leading, and just trying to hold on to what they have.
 
ckfred
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:05 pm

First, has anyone considered the possiblity that the UCC pushed AA to send the letter threatening litigation? If the operational issues were to continue, the creditors see their chances seeing AA make good on their debts fading away.

In a bankruptcy, both labor and management are pretty much working for the creditors, since they have so much say in the final reorganization.

Again, I would like to here from some AA pilots, like aluminumtubing, as to why Doug Parker represents the best option for AA's future.

In my opinion, Parker is just another manager who got his start in the Crandall culture at AA. That culture doesn't turn out the managerial and executive talent the way that companies like GE and McDonald's do.

What would be wrong with trying to hire someone away from Southwest to be AA/AMR's next CEO? Granted, there may be restrictive covenants in the employment agreements of senior executives at Southwest, but those can be overcome. About 20 years ago, Chrysler hired away a senior executive from GM to become CEO.

Considering that Southwest management has a long history or getting along with unionized employees, as well as a sterling reputation for customer service, hiring someone from Southwest who wants a challenge is a no brainer.

There are plenty of potential candidates for senior positions at AA, both inside and outside the industry, who never worked a day for Bob Crandall.

APA, APFA, and TWU need to pool their voting power together and find some creditors/future shareholders who also believe that AA needs to replace Horton & Co.
 
HPRamper
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
In my opinion, Parker is just another manager who got his start in the Crandall culture at AA. That culture doesn't turn out the managerial and executive talent the way that companies like GE and McDonald's do.

That is completely anecdotal. While oft brought up, it's only to refer to AArpey and Horton. Maybe those two just happened to be crappy management material. It's not necessarily because of Crandall's influence. I'm sure there were plenty of competent AA employees who were hired and worked under Crandall. If not, the airline wouldn't still be running.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
What would be wrong with trying to hire someone away from Southwest to be AA/AMR's next CEO? Granted, there may be restrictive covenants in the employment agreements of senior executives at Southwest, but those can be overcome. About 20 years ago, Chrysler hired away a senior executive from GM to become CEO.

Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):
Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.

Bingo. A much better option would be to opt for a CEO from an entirely different industry.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 17):
This strike vote makes no sense. It is not even posturing, just a total waste of time.

I will pass that info off to the leadership of APA asap, as they may not be aware of that. Thank you.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
Will the pensions convert to 401k?

The A plan will be frozen versus terminated and the benefits earned will be paid as an annuity. The B plan will be terminated and we have the option of having the funds rolled over into an IRA or 401K. Future contributions, I am estimating at14%, will be put into the 401K. That is in addition to the full amount we will be able to contribute per law.

[Edited 2012-10-03 10:16:58]
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 24):
Future contributions, I am estimating at14%, will be put into the 401K. That is in addition to the full amount we will be able to contribute per law.

So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:50 pm

alluminumtubing- do you guys have any over 12 flights, and if so, is it 2 captains and 2 FOs like DL or 1 CA and 3 FOs like UA?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
catdaddy63
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 25):
So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?

For 2012, the IRS limits 401K contributions to $17000, or $22500 if the individual is age 50 or older.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 25):
So if you earned 200k gross, you could stick roughly $45k annually into your 401(k) with AA's contribution on top of yours?

The standard limit for this year, is of course $17000 plus catch up of $5500 for being over 50. But the limit with company contributions included is I think around $54000. Anyway, it is above $50K. Anything over that limit, would be paid out as taxable income.

So based on an income of $200k, that would be around $50.5 which is under the cap.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 26):
alluminumtubing- do you guys have any over 12 flights, and if so, is it 2 captains and 2 FOs like DL or 1 CA and 3 FOs like UA?
PVG, NRT and DEL for example are / were crewed with 1 CA, 1FO, 1FB and a FC. 1 CA and 3 FO's.

[Edited 2012-10-03 15:27:35]
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):

PVG, NRT and DEL for example are / were crewed with 1 CA, 1FO, 1FB and a FC. 1 CA and 3 FO's.

Blargh! That's another place where you guys are far from the top. Don't forget that with these negotiations to try to bring you "down" to the level of your highly profitable competitors.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):
1FB and a FC

Excuse my ignorance, but what's an FB and FC?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 30):
Excuse my ignorance, but what's an FB and FC?

They are affectionately called FB -Food Boy and FC - Food Critic. They are the two relief FO's.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:04 am

Here is a link from a DFW radio talk show program today. AA spokesman and APA spokesman were invited. AA no showed, but APA did show up. Well presented, I thought.


https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Videos/VideoPlayer/TabId/865/VideoId/151/The-Wells-Report-APA-Vs-Bruce-Hicks-No-Show-Audio-File.aspx
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:50 am

Aluminumtubing, what would you say the largest sticking points in the negotiations are? What is it that AA doesnt want to give in on and what is it the pilots dont want to give in on?

I did listen to the interview in the link and I actually thought it was a one sided bashfest.

[Edited 2012-10-04 04:57:54]
It is what it is...
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):
I did listen to the interview in the link and I actually thought it was a one sided bashfest.

It was to a certain extent, but most of the points weren't far off. AA's speaking points are somewhat a bashfest as well. The host invited both sides, but AA didn't wan't to participate in the discussion. APA was willing, showed up and gave their side which is what one would expect. AA refused to participate. Why? It's kind of like last nights debate. Each side bashed the other. At least they both showed up!

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):

Aluminumtubing, what would you say the largest sticking points in the negotiations are?

As far as sticking points, the primary areas are pay and scope. The pilots want a pathway back to industry standards, which I don't believe to be unrealistic. Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we? I will be retired before scope gets to the point it will personally affect me, but the junior pilots feel they have nothing to lose. Even at that, scope is big to me, because I don't want to see our junior pilots' careers destroyed and I certainly don't want to have the high time experienced pilots replaced by brand new pilots. And yes, experience does matter. A lot. I am very picky when it comes to who I will let fly my family. There are other areas that need to be discussed as well, but those two items are the biggest.

Almost as important, pilots are not like dogs. It's very hard to train us to roll over and play dead. In fact, I would go as far as to say it is extremely difficult. The majority of the pilots will not accept a last best final offer shoved down their throats. The pilots feel they have a skill set that AA needs to be successful and that there is a price for that. The pilots expect a "negotiated" settlement that works for both sides. A lot of people here don't like that, and that is fine. They are not the ones in this position and they will not be making the decisions on behalf of the pilots.

I think we will know in fairly short order how this will play out. This will not be a long drawn out process of the past. Either both sides reach an agreement that works for both sides, or AA will cease to exist in its present form. As I mentioned in a previous thread, i sat my wife down and said to pray for the best, but brace for the worst.
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we? I will be retired before scope gets to the point it will personally affect me, but the junior pilots feel they have nothing to lose.

The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

And on the subject of scope: what did Parker propose to the APA in that area? Under the Parker term sheet, how many large RJs would the "new AA" be permitted to operate?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
The pilots expect a "negotiated" settlement that works for both sides.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
I think we will know in fairly short order how this will play out. This will not be a long drawn out process of the past. Either both sides reach an agreement that works for both sides, or AA will cease to exist in its present form.

If that is representative of an attitude prevalent among APA members - and I suspect it is - then I will be interested to see how willing the APA actually is to "negotiate."

Will the APA now try and reverse the roles and play the spoiler who comes in, demands "industry standard" as they define it, and refuse anything else AA offers, threatening to "shut the place down" if they don't get what they want? This again comes back to the two opposing forces at work here: Horton needs a contract that is sufficiently low-cost that it allows him to build the "standalone" business plan so it compares favorably with the UCC versus the Parker plan, while many pilots seem to be suggesting that the Delta/United contracts, or at a minimum the new Parker term sheet, are the starting point.

So I guess one question then is: assuming (just assuming) Horton came to the pilots and said we'll give you the exact same term sheet Parker proposed to you, would the APA take it? And then assuming that happened, could Horton build a business plan based around the Parker pilot term sheet that, still taking advantage of the other union contracts already renegotiated (net of the "me too" clauses) that beats out the Parker plan in the eyes of the UCC?

Ultimately, it seems pretty clear to me that AA has - in all the negotiations to-date - been fairly unwilling to engage in much give-and-take, at least with the pilots, so I wonder now if the APA will take that same approach in reverse?
 
incitatus
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now

By industry standard he meant pick the best bits of every single contract out there and piece them together.
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aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

And on the subject of scope: what did Parker propose to the APA in that area? Under the Parker term sheet, how many large RJs would the "new AA" be permitted to operate?

You bring up an excellent point regarding scope as it relates to Delta. I am going to give MY opinion on this. If the pilots want Delta's pay and contractual working conditions, then in my opinion, they will have to accept their scope provisions as well. If we want Delta's contract, we have to take the good with the not so good. I do think that is doable. Scope unfortunately, is now part of the industry. Negotiating compromises is one thing, but of course, wholesale outsourcing is another.

As far as Parker and scope, I have not really looked into all the details. If and when the time comes, I will. Right now, everything is so "theoretical" in nature.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
If that is representative of an attitude prevalent among APA members - and I suspect it is - then I will be interested to see how willing the APA actually is to "negotiate.

I am not sure how to exactly take the context of "negotiate". I absolutely guarantee the pilots want a negotiated settlement. NOBODY likes where we are and where we are headed. I will pose the statement right back...It will be interesting to see how willing AA is to "negotiate". I think it just goes without saying, that if the two sides can not reach a consensual agreement that works for both sides, that this simply will not work going forward.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Will the APA now try and reverse the roles and play the spoiler who comes in, demands "industry standard" as they define it, and refuse anything else AA offers, threatening to "shut the place down" if they don't get what they want?

Correct me if I am wrong, but this statement seems a bit over the top and one sided. The one thing I have tried to be, agree with me or not, has been to be fair and balanced during all this, pointing out the warts on both sides. No one is threatening to nuke the place. As I just mentioned above, either a consensual agreement is reached that works for both sides, or this simply will not work long term. I think it is fairly easy to determine industry standard. And the APA has been offering proposals for the last 6 years that would provide a number of things that would benefit AA (somethings of course that wouldn't), but AA has had this take it or leave it attitude. They knew full well they were going to file Chapter 11. I sure as hell did. I missed the filing date by a just a few days based on my personal guesstimate. And if I could determine that they would file and when, any half witted ninny should have been able to see it coming as quickly as it did as well. Says something about financial analysts, doesn't it. They knew they could just stall because they would eventually have us by the you know whats. Well, we didn't squeal like stuck pigs they were expecting. Now, they are moving to plan B.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Horton came to the pilots and said we'll give you the exact same term sheet Parker proposed to you, would the APA take it?

I highly doubt it. I think APA was willing to be more flexible in order to help facilitate a merger and eliminate Horton and Company. Again, just my humble opinion.

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Ultimately, it seems pretty clear to me that AA has - in all the negotiations to-date - been fairly unwilling to engage in much give-and-take, at least with the pilots, so I wonder now if the APA will take that same approach in reverse?

I think the APA leadership is more pragmatic than they are given credit for. In my heart of hearts, I do believe they will negotiate in an attempt to reach an agreement both sides can live with. As ticked off as I have been at APA leadership on a number of occasions, I absolutely believe they are capable of negotiating in good faith. In all honesty, right now I am more concerned with the AA side.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 36):
By industry standard he meant pick the best bits of every single contract out there and piece them together.

If I may be direct..... All your posts are so one sided and do not appear to come from a sincere informed viewpoint.
I really don't know where you come up with these statements. They are over the top and unrealistic. No half witted moron, which to you means AA pilot, would view your statement as the definition of industry leading standard. You obviously have an agenda and do not like us. I am truly sorry about that. But trust me, we really don't beat our wives and abandon innocent puppies on the side of the road. Geesh laweeze, lets get real here!

[Edited 2012-10-04 06:24:07]
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):
The standard limit for this year, is of course $17000 plus catch up of $5500 for being over 50. But the limit with company contributions included is I think around $54000. Anyway, it is above $50K. Anything over that limit, would be paid out as taxable income.

So based on an income of $200k, that would be around $50.5 which is under the cap.

So to state the obvious...this is a huge benefit. The company contribution alone can equal more than the Annual US Median Wage. Do you pilots consider that as part of compensation? Was the pension even more lucrative (paid in more than 30k per year)?

Most people in a non-unionized environment would kill for a benefit like that. Doesn't mean you're not worth it, but I hope you consider it part of your paycheck...
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
If the pilots want Delta's pay and contractual working conditions, then in my opinion, they will have to accept their scope provisions as well. If we want Delta's contract, we have to take the good with the not so good. I do think that is doable. Scope unfortunately, is now part of the industry.

Yes.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
I will pose the statement right back...It will be interesting to see how willing AA is to "negotiate".

Well, as I said, I think it's clear AA has been less than forthcoming in their willingness to negotiate. That is pretty clear. The question now becomes - if AA came in, changed their MO, and were more open to compromise, would the APA be, or are the APA members now sufficiently infuriated that the political pressure will be on the APA leaders to get an unrealistically-good deal, or nothing? Ah, politics.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
No one is threatening to nuke the place.

There are other forums on the internet where self-identified AA pilots are speaking of "teaching the company a lesson," Delta/United or nothing, and "shutting the place down." It's out there. I'm not saying it's representative of the majority of APA members (the internet tends to often attract the extremes on both sides of an issue), but it is out there.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 37):
I highly doubt it. I think APA was willing to be more flexible in order to help facilitate a merger and eliminate Horton and Company. Again, just my humble opinion.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The APA says they want "industry-standard." Four months ago they thought the deal Parker put in front of them was "industry-standard." So now if Horton gave them that same deal, and they rejected it, what to make of that? Who would be unwilling to "negotiate" or "compromise," then?

[Edited 2012-10-04 06:51:30]
 
norcal
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
The key, I think, is what the APA is defining as "industry standard" as related to scope. Would, for example, the APA accept something similar to the latest Delta agreement, which if applied to AA would allow a substantial number of additional large RJs over what AA now operates? That would seem to be fairly "industry standard" to me, but would be a fairly material change to the scope protections APA has now (which, again, just goes to further emphasize in my mind how uncompetitive AA's pilots contract had become in several key areas in the last few years).

At this point, Delta scope would be an improvement over the LBFO and the term sheet.

I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):

First, has anyone considered the possiblity that the UCC pushed AA to send the letter threatening litigation? If the operational issues were to continue, the creditors see their chances seeing AA make good on their debts fading away.

I would think that's certainly possible. But given the level of escalationary risk, it would have been a foolhardy or desperate thing to do.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):

That is completely anecdotal. While oft brought up, it's only to refer to AArpey and Horton. Maybe those two just happened to be crappy management material. It's not necessarily because of Crandall's influence.

Maybe. The problem with the whole Crandall era is somewhat two-dimensional, (at least). First, he didn't really leave much in the way of a succession plan. I'm sure he hears from the new staff at Amon Carter from time to time, but his leadership style, so to speak, was never something that was enshrined after his departure.
Second, that may be a good thing. What worked for him likely won't fly these days anyway, at least not without a good deal of modification.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):

Just because another company is good at what they do doesn't mean someone from there will be a good fit in another completely different system. AA and Southwest are about as far apart in their way of doing things as any two domestic airlines. And AA is not about to go the LCC route.

While I would tend to agree with that, the truth is that AA will have to implement structural changes sooner or later anyway. I think they're going to keep a lot of what they already are going forward, but I also don't think that precludes them taking a more LCC route domestically. I can't help remembering, after all, that they were the 1st legacy to charge for checked baggage.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
Scope is huge. People say that we should just be thankful we have jobs. Well, if they outsource the jobs, where are we?

Right. While it's clear that there will have to be changes here, I do agree that it's very easy to go too far in that regard. Something else that's not often talked about with scope is that the regional flight crews aren't exactly thrilled with it either. For them, it simply means more time waiting at lower wages before fewer slots open up at mainline jobs.

Assuming AA & APA work out a six year contract (which I still think is quite a bit of time), I'd expect this issue to come up again...

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 38):
But trust me, we really don't beat our wives and abandon innocent puppies on the side of the road.

Nobody's perfect,  
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 39):
So to state the obvious...this is a huge benefit. The company contribution alone can equal more than the Annual US Median Wage. Do you pilots consider that as part of compensation? Was the pension even more lucrative (paid in more than 30k per year)?

Yes, it is a good benefit. I hope it wasn't me people hear whining?   We were getting contributions into our A fund and 11% of salary put into our B fund. So, the 14% if agreed to (and was actually already in the LBFO..actually 13.5%, but I rounded), is designed to replace those contributions and instead of AA sponsored plans, the money would be put into the 401K. So, based on your $200K salary figure, AA would contribute roughly $28K and we would still be able to make the typical contributions anyone can on top of that.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 39):
Most people in a non-unionized environment would kill for a benefit like that. Doesn't mean you're not worth it, but I hope you consider it part of your paycheck...

As you know, it is not so much hourly pay (paycheck), it is the total compensation package. And yes, that is a big part of it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
Well, as I said, I think it's clear AA has been less than forthcoming in their willingness to negotiate. That is pretty clear. The question now becomes - if AA came in, changed their MO, and were more open to compromise, would the APA be, or are the APA members now sufficiently infuriated that the political pressure will be on the APA leaders to get an unrealistically-good deal, or nothing? Ah, politics

At this point I am just going to ignore the chest beating that has been going on from both sides and just sit back and wait. Can't do much else.

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
There are other forums on the internet where self-identified AA pilots are speaking of "teaching the company a lesson," Delta/United or nothing, and "shutting the place down."

I won't deny that for a second. I have seen them. I call them the 12 angry men. (From the movie) They are NOT the majority. Remember the 10% rule??? Each and every occupation is subject to it. There are always going to be 10% that are idiots.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

You are wise and pragmatic.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 42):
Right. While it's clear that there will have to be changes here, I do agree that it's very easy to go too far in that regard. Something else that's not often talked about with scope is that the regional flight crews aren't exactly thrilled with it either. For them, it simply means more time waiting at lower wages before fewer slots open up at mainline jobs.

That sentiment has been common with just about 95% of all the regional jumpseaters I have had. They don't want us to pull the rug out from under them and relegate them to lesser careers.
 
commavia
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
At this point, Delta scope would be an improvement over the LBFO and the term sheet.

But, for APA members, the current Delta scope would be a huge downgrade, strategically, from the previous AA scope provision - that was the point I was making.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

Similar to what AA's LBFO had, a 3-year "industry standard" adjustment snapback, yes?

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives.

Agreed - logical, makes sense.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 45):
Similar to what AA's LBFO had, a 3-year "industry standard" adjustment snapback, yes?

True, but the language was "quite vague".
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 34):
APA was willing, showed up and gave their side which is what one would expect. AA refused to participate. Why?

Because negotiating in public is idiotic. The situation is heated enough as it is without both sides continuing to stir the pot with moronic public announcements. Keeping it private until a vote would be the smart thing but not much smart has happened yet in this entire debacle.

The public one upmanship does absolutely no good and a great deal of harm. In private, words can be taken back. In public, they are out there forever.

Both sides should grow the hell up and keep this mess behind closed doors until they hammer out a solution...but that won't happen since there are too many glory boys on both sides who can't help but open their yaps if they see a microphone.
What the...?
 
joeljack
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):

A little late now, isn't it? They piss off an entire customer base and smear AA's reputation (along with their own) and now they're playing it conservatively?

The past few years my dad has been flying OMA-TPA every other week and likes to book in advance. He was splitting his trips between F9 and AA the past couple of years. F9 hasn't brought back TPA-OMA yet and he said he's tired of AA delayed flights so he just booked about 8-10 trips in paid F at $1200-$1500 each for January - April. Seeing that F9 stopped flying, all that business would have gone to AA. That is some lost revenue there!!

He did say that if AA figures it out, he'll go back because he hates all the RJ's that UA is now flying to OMA after the merger without first class on them. (that discussion is for another thread)
 
aaexecplat
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RE: APA Agrees To Restart Negotiations

Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
I'd even say that the pay rates should be less then Delta right now to allow the company to regain some financial footing, but that a snap back is incorporated that bring's AA on par with United and Delta pay scales in 3 years time.

I think that sounds very fair.

Quoting norcal (Reply 41):
Furthermore I think the company should try and incentivize (not require) additional productivity beyond Delta. For example, JetBlue pays 1.5 times the hourly rate for hours flown beyond 78 in a month. Something along those lines would be great, especially for the narrow body fleet. That would encourage AA pilots to act more like JetBlue and Southwest pilots and produce the additional productivity that these carriers enjoy using their incentives

Wouldn't that be of very little value since most of you would butt up to your 1000 hour annual flight hour limit?