N62NA
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AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:07 am

Just downloaded and checked the new AA timetable and MIA-NAS will be all ERJ-145 (and 1 ERJ-140) starting on November 15th.

For a route that traditionally carries a lot of extra passenger bags I wonder how AA will cope with the rather limited baggage capacity on the RJs compared to the ATRs.
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:10 am

Well this sucks. The ATR's were always a rather exotic aircraft to me and it looked so at-home on the ground in NAS with the palm trees and Caribbean setting. Also, in addition to a cargo capacity decrease, isn't this a rather drastic passenger decrease? Will there be any added frequencies?
 
doug
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:18 am

It looks like most if not all ATR's are gone from MIA all of the flights to JAX and EYW are rj's as NOV 15.
 
N62NA
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting doug (Reply 2):
It looks like most if not all ATR's are gone from MIA all of the flights to JAX and EYW are rj's as NOV 15.

Yeah, seems that way.

What's going to happen to all those ATR pilots????
 
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Aesma
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:31 am

ATRs sell left and right but a company looking for efficiency everywhere replaces them with RJs every other company is trying to sell. Makes sense.
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Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:44 am

I guess some of them will be losing their jobs. Interestingly enough until some days ago quite a few flights from MIA where showing with ERJ-140 and ERJ-145 equipment and as operated by Executive Airlines from January onwards, now all has disappeared and is back to American Eagle.
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acelanzarote
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:29 am

Wonder why AA did not order some ATR72-600´s, surprised they are going down the E145 route with reduced seating/cargo....
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vikinga346
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:02 am

So are we sure the AA are selling all of their ATRs?
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par13del
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:27 am

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
For a route that traditionally carries a lot of extra passenger bags I wonder how AA will cope with the rather limited baggage capacity on the RJs compared to the ATRs.

Loss in revenue on the bags is a given, having less cargo capacity will not force travellers NOT to purchase in Mia and carry home. Bahamians for example also ship a lot of stuff home via boat, take a look at South River drive, so it is not as if flying with excess bags is our only option.

On the number of seats, time will tell, certainely the jets are more expensive to operate on these short flights, certainely the busy xmas season will show how this should shake out next year.
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting vikinga346 (Reply 7):
So are we sure the AA are selling all of their ATRs?

Thee are a good number of them sitting at AvCraft Technical services in MYR waiting for a new home so I know don't know if they are selling ALL of them, but they are selling a good deal of them.
 
commavia
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Just downloaded and checked the new AA timetable and MIA-NAS will be all ERJ-145 (and 1 ERJ-140) starting on November 15th.

Yes. Looks like all of the new LAX SkyWest Eagle flying has also now been fully loaded.

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
For a route that traditionally carries a lot of extra passenger bags I wonder how AA will cope with the rather limited baggage capacity on the RJs compared to the ATRs.

I would guess that AA analyzed the situation and determined that any extra revenue that could be derived from larger bag and/or cargo capacity on these flights still did not justify the added cost of a fleet of old, maintenance-intensive, and costly ATR72s, particularly since there are so few of them left.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
The ATR's were always a rather exotic aircraft

You say "exotic." I say "awful." Most of Eagle's ATRs are horribly outdated and had not been refurbished in years. They are badly showing their age.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
ATRs sell left and right but a company looking for efficiency everywhere replaces them with RJs every other company is trying to sell. Makes sense.

It does make sense. The ATRs selling "left and right" are brand new, substantially upgraded, and more fuel efficient models, not the ancient vintage of ATR72 that Eagle flies.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 6):
Wonder why AA did not order some ATR72-600´s, surprised they are going down the E145 route with reduced seating/cargo....

I suspect RJs are not the permanent solution for replacing the ATR72s, but rather an interim measure until AMR has the time to analyze a more suitable long-term replacement for many of the former ATR missions - they will probably go with either new ATR72s or Q400s. Ultimately, given where the economics of 50-seat jets are going, AMR will probably, in the long-run, end up replacing a lot RJ capacity with large turboprops, not the other way around.
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
I suspect RJs are not the permanent solution for replacing the ATR72s, but rather an interim measure until AMR has the time to analyze a more suitable long-term replacement for many of the former ATR missions - they will probably go with either new ATR72s or Q400s

Or they could be following DL and getting rid of all turboprops.
 
commavia
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11):
Or they could be following DL and getting rid of all turboprops.

My personal opinion, based solely on what we have seen happen to the economics of small RJs, is that you are going to see both carriers - AA and Delta - move back into turboprops in the next few years. There are some markets where a 50-seat RJ is simply no longer economically viable, but where a 70-seat RJ would also be too large and uneconomic. For many of these markets, turboprops like Q400s and/or newer ATR72s makes sense.
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:17 pm

All Executive (ATR) pilots are slowly displacing to the Eagle side of the operation, so no job losses. All ATRs will be gone by sometime next year, I believe. Rumor has it that a chunk of the LAX EMBs will be reallocated and we'll be seeing RJs in SJU eventually. Nothing official, just rumors for now.
 
commavia
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 13):
All Executive (ATR) pilots are slowly displacing to the Eagle side of the operation, so no job losses.

Good to hear.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 13):
Rumor has it that a chunk of the LAX EMBs will be reallocated and we'll be seeing RJs in SJU eventually. Nothing official, just rumors for now.

I remember those rumors being mentioned in the past. That would be fascinating to see - I just have a hard time imagining a tiny base of RJs making sense out of SJU, particularly now that the mainline operation in SJU feeding those RJs is so small, and given that there are so few markets left in the Caribbean that already have or could have nonstop flights to MIA. Of the few markets left, I always thought the ERJs were in several cases a no-go because of runway length.
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):

Runway length was my first concern as well. I guess some markets will forfit service when the jets are moved down there. I could see maybe a codeshare with LIAT to hel pwith some of that?
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting doug (Reply 2):
It looks like most if not all ATR's are gone from MIA all of the flights to JAX and EYW are rj's as NOV 15.

You wouldn't think EYW 's runway is long enough,but it must be.
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CRFLY
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:08 pm

Saw the other day the Delta 73G landing and taking off from EWY Airport... So if a 737-700 can do it, I guess an ERJ can do the mission as well... I had a great farewell flight on the ATR, great plane, very powerful although outdated... Cheers for the "Super ATR!"
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:25 pm

One consideration that has not yet been mentioned in this thread ... isn't part of the reason AMR is drawing down ATR ops is so they can phase out the Executive operation altogether? The operating costs for the ATR are somewhat skewed compared to the ERJs by the fact that AMR is operating an entire subsidiary for one aircraft type. Eliminating the ATRs also elminiates the extra overhead that comes with OW.
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haggisman
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:27 pm

Presumably the Miami-Marsh Harbour flight will be using something else too - anyone have any idea what equipment will be used on that leg? It was an ATR when we went in 2009

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N62NA
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting haggisman (Reply 19):
Presumably the Miami-Marsh Harbour flight will be using something else too - anyone have any idea what equipment will be used on that leg? It was an ATR when we went in 2009

ERJ-140 (ERD)
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 17):
Saw the other day the Delta 73G landing and taking off from EWY Airport... So if a 737-700 can do it, I guess an ERJ can do the mission as well... I had a great farewell flight on the ATR, great plane, very powerful although outdated... Cheers for the "Super ATR!"

I had my farewell a few months ago on MIA-NAS...for all their rattiness...I will miss the variety!
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting vikinga346 (Reply 7):
So are we sure the AA are selling all of their ATRs?

AA didn't own any of the ATR's. They sold them a few ago to NAC/Nordic Aviation Capital
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):

Apparently a lot of the flights will be flown through Miami. Say for instance, MIA-LRM-SJU-SXM-SJU...etc. etc. We'll see, but it seems AA still wants to provide a presence down there. To further compound the rumor, we received a new High Enroute chart for the Eastern Caribbean with our last revision, so take that as you will.  

Runway isn't a problem for the EMB except a few cities, which I presume will be dropped/codeshared. The EMB can do EYW, but we have to do them flaps 22 in the -145 or 18 in the -135/-140.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:53 pm

This is from an internal American Eagle announcement....a portion of the notice that included adding SkyWest and ExpressJet to the mix.

"And, as previously announced, American has negotiated the early return of the ATRs. This fleet is old, and there are very high maintenance and leasing costs associated with these aircraft. This action will result in the closure of the Miami (MIA) Executive pilot and flight attendant domiciles on Nov. 15. However, all Executive pilots and flight attendants will be able to use their seniority to bid for positions at American Eagle – including positions at MIA. We do not foresee any furloughs as a result of this displacement. We do anticipate that American Eagle will be providing more regional jet flying out of MIA to replace some of the discontinued ATR flying. Additionally, all MIA and Key West Executive employees will become American Eagle employees as of Jan. 1, 2013."
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 3):
What's going to happen to all those ATR pilots????

They're heading to RJ's.

I thought all the ATRs were gone already?
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guyanam
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 23):

The various Eastern Caribbean govts are frantic with worry about what AA plans to do with its SJU hub. A conference in SKB will be attended by a very senior AA official and he will definitely be peppered with a demands to state exactly what AAs plans are.

EIS is quite frantic is they now see a future of dependency on LIAT as Cape Air's planes afre small and so there are luggage constraints. Ditto DOM. FDF and PTP will be completely marooned as the only other servic on AF leaves MIA early as it has to go all the way through to CAY.

SKB is probably happy with their additional MIA service, which provides late afternoon connections, opening up more US cities. ANU is trying for Jetblue ex SJU, so some say. SLU/UVF is probably concerned about whether airlift lost on the SJU will be replaced by additional capacity and an afternoon departure ex MIA, as they are inaccessable to any one who cant make a fairly early morning connection thru ATL or MIA. Their US arrivals are down, they blame lost airlift for this.
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
The various Eastern Caribbean govts are frantic with worry about what AA plans to do with its SJU hub. A conference in SKB will be attended by a very senior AA official and he will definitely be peppered with a demands to state exactly what AAs plans are.

EIS is quite frantic is they now see a future of dependency on LIAT as Cape Air's planes afre small and so there are luggage constraints. Ditto DOM. FDF and PTP will be completely marooned as the only other servic on AF leaves MIA early as it has to go all the way through to CAY.

SKB is probably happy with their additional MIA service, which provides late afternoon connections, opening up more US cities. ANU is trying for Jetblue ex SJU, so some say. SLU/UVF is probably concerned about whether airlift lost on the SJU will be replaced by additional capacity and an afternoon departure ex MIA, as they are inaccessable to any one who cant make a fairly early morning connection thru ATL or MIA. Their US arrivals are down, they blame lost airlift for this.

From what i can see B6 plan is to keep growing SJU and make it the premier Carribean hub/Focus city just like the AA of past. B6 operation there is great, being remodeled to be better and their aircraft are perfect from passenger point of view A320's in and E190's out. I expect we will see even more B6 expansion in the coming months and they should have a rep at that meeting i would hope, maybe someone from B6 can ellaborate on the latest inside gossip regarding the Carribean expansion.
 
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 18):
The operating costs for the ATR are somewhat skewed compared to the ERJs by the fact that AMR is operating an entire subsidiary for one aircraft type.

I'm not sure that's true, actually. One of the advantages of OW was that Eagle was able to confine the costs of overwater operations to them rather than having all aircraft equipped for overwater operations. That's a cost savings, but I don't know whether or not it is larger than the added cost of an additional certificate.
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usxguy
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 am

I thought they are trying to build a bigger runway @ EIS.
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OB1504
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
ATRs sell left and right but a company looking for efficiency everywhere replaces them with RJs every other company is trying to sell. Makes sense.

I can see how it would make sense to simplify the fleet by eliminating an aircraft type, but the ERJ is not a viable replacement for these aircraft.

Quoting CRFLY (Reply 17):
Saw the other day the Delta 73G landing and taking off from EWY Airport... So if a 737-700 can do it, I guess an ERJ can do the mission as well... I had a great farewell flight on the ATR, great plane, very powerful although outdated... Cheers for the "Super ATR!"

EYW also sees regular CRJ700 service, so the EMB-145 should be able to operate safely, though I don't know if it'll have to take a weight penalty on departure.
 
usxguy
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RE: AA ATR Withdrawal On MIA-NAS Complete Nov 15th

Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:35 am

CRJ 700 also has better short-field characteristics. The ERJ's will have weight restrictions... that's why Delta preferred sending in the E135.
xx