INFINITI329
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B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:45 am

If Jetblue went with 737-800, would they have been able to accomplish to same things that have done with their 320?

Curious to hear the viewpoints on this

If this has already been covered feel free to delete..
 
PHX787
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Thread starter):
If Jetblue went with 737-800, would they have been able to accomplish to same things that have done with their 320?

They might be able to do hawaii from LGB .... but I believe that the 320 may be able to? (correct me if I'm wrong)

Also B6 with the 738....not gonna happen. IIRC, B6 got their airbus planes from a special deal with A, right?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:54 am

Both are great aircraft, I'm not sure either frame would make or break B6, even if one is marginally better or worse. JMO
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:02 am

Why not? But the 737-800 was not available when JetBlue started.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:08 am

JetBlue actually built their business plan around 737-800 and it was their preferred aircraft. Boeing's sales department refused to give B6 preferrential pricing, as they believed at the time the carrier would fail. David Neeleman then reluctantly went to Airbus and the rest is history.
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panam330
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 3):
Why not? But the 737-800 was not available when JetBlue started.

Yes it was. Went into service in 1998; B6's first flight was in 2000.

Way back, I remember reading (on here) that B6 went to Boeing first, and they didn't want to sell them aircraft, so they went to Airbus. Bet you Boeing regrets that now, if it's true.
 
BMI727
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Thread starter):
If Jetblue went with 737-800, would they have been able to accomplish to same things that have done with their 320?

Yes, but it was never a serious contender. I want to say I saw an interview with Neeleman where he stated that they were really attracted to the technology of the A320 and got a good deal on their planes. This was also during the period that Boeing is said to have not really been paying attention to smaller or startup carriers. Supposedly Frontier was all set to order 737NGs but Boeing's offers fell short of what they were looking for.
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roseflyer
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 am

I don't think it would have made much of a difference. The airplanes are very similar. The 738 has a bit more range, but I don't think that would add up to much for them.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
BMI727
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
The 738 has a bit more range, but I don't think that would add up to much for them.

You're talking about a few more seats and a few less stops in Oklahoma City or wherever during high winds, but that's about it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
roseflyer
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

You're talking about a few more seats and a few less stops in Oklahoma City or wherever during high winds, but that's about it.

JetBlue could have also chosen a higher thrust engine option on the A320 as well to reduce those fuel stops.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
strfyr51
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):

Jet Blue flies the CFM engine don't they?? Is there a higher thrust engine than the -5B with 27K thrust??
 
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treebeard787
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RE: B6 & The 737

Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 10):
Jet Blue flies the CFM engine don't they?? Is there a higher thrust engine than the -5B with 27K thrust??

B6 went with the IAE V2500 series engines for their A320s.
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airproxx
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
They might be able to do hawaii from LGB .... but I believe that the 320 may be able to? (correct me if I'm wrong)

Didn't check the distance but to my knowledge, the standard (no options) B738 has a higher range than standard (no options) A320.
The A320 carries about 18,7 tons max fuel, when a B738 carries some 20+ tons...
If you want a higher range A320, you have to add optional ACTs, installed in cargo holds...

I know there's an ETOPS wiring on A320, but is it ETOPS certified? I know the B738 can be...
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jfklganyc
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:13 am

The 738 does West Coast-Hawaii. The 320 does not.

Just throwing that in there
 
airliner371
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
stated that they were really attracted to the technology of the A320

Well what else are they gonna say, "Our planes are not nearly as good as Boeing, Boeing you have a better plane"?  
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
I want to say I saw an interview with Neeleman where he stated that they were really attracted to the technology of the A320 and got a good deal on their planes.

"Flying High", the official biography of David Neeleman and the JetBlue launch, says the exact opposite.

Rather:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 4):
JetBlue actually built their business plan around 737-800 and it was their preferred aircraft. Boeing's sales department refused to give B6 preferrential pricing

Neeleman and the rest of the start up team always assumed that they would be a 737 operator, but Boeing wasn't willing to budge much on price whereas Airbus gave them an offer they couldn't refuse
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

You're talking about a few more seats and a few less stops in Oklahoma City or wherever during high winds, but that's about it.

Actually, given that they go with 34" seat pitch, that may not have been the case.
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Aesma
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 13):
The 738 does West Coast-Hawaii. The 320 does not.

Just throwing that in there

The 320 could. But that would mean getting an ETOPS certified operation for B6.
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milesrich
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Thread starter):
If Jetblue went with 737-800, would they have been able to accomplish to same things that have done with their 320?

Curious to hear the viewpoints on this

If this has already been covered feel free to delete..

Boeing did not want to sell their airplanes below cost. The US Government was not subsidizing the 737 program.
 
olddominion727
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:21 am

as much as I love Boeing... I think the A320/19 (not 21) are more comfortable than a 737. A320'a feel more like a jumbo or a 757. 737's feel squished together.
 
jfk777
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:25 am

The Jetblue launch was going to go with the 737 but Airbus gave them a package they couldn't refuse. This had to be one of John Leahy's Oscar performances because Neelman was a Boeing man when he had Morris Air. Jetblue was unique in several ways, its the only LCC ever based at JFK and was challeneging entrenched airlnes on NYC to Florida and California.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:37 am

So I was off a bit on the dates. I don't think though that Boeing is harboring any deep regrets and I doubt they didn't want JetBlue. The scenario was more likely that Boeing wanted a bit more security than B6 was able to provide. And why would Boeing give a startup carrier preferential pricing anyway, they had, and have, more than enough customers.

All that being said, both aircraft are equals. I see no real differences.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
And why would Boeing give a startup carrier preferential pricing anyway, they had, and have, more than enough customers.

...because they already gave Neeleman the deal he couldn't refuse for 737NGs when he was at WestJet, perhaps?
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BMI727
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
Neeleman and the rest of the start up team always assumed that they would be a 737 operator, but Boeing wasn't willing to budge much on price whereas Airbus gave them an offer they couldn't refuse

Fair enough. Explains why Boeing was never a serious contender when it was time to make an order.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 16):
Actually, given that they go with 34" seat pitch, that may not have been the case.

Jetblue has some extra space seats up front and in the exits with 38" so they have 150 seats in their A320s. WestJet has 166 seats with 34" throughout so I'd imagine B6 could fit a few more seats in a 738 than an A320, like most carriers.
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airportugal310
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Jetblue has some extra space seats up front and in the exits with 38" so they have 150 seats in their A320s. WestJet has 166 seats with 34" throughout so I'd imagine B6 could fit a few more seats in a 738 than an A320, like most carriers.

Agreed. Let's not all forget that when B6 launched, they had 156 in coach. Then it went to 150 somewhere around 2006-ish? and that was long before Even More Space. Supposedly (I can't remember) it was to lower the amount of F/A's required on board.
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B6JFKH81
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 24):
Agreed. Let's not all forget that when B6 launched, they had 156 in coach.

162, then 156, then 150  
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
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airportugal310
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 25):

Oh cool...I didnt even realize it was 162 a the beginning. Believe me, I like the 150  
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floridaflyboy
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
they had, and have, more than enough customers.

Wow. If I was an investor in the company and that was truly the company's viewpoint, I'd be very very disturbed. Terrible business philosophy
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mariner
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 18):
Boeing did not want to sell their airplanes below cost. The US Government was not subsidizing the 737 program.

No one sold aircraft below cost.

This same thing happened with Frontier, at roughly the same time. Frontier fully expected to be going with Boeing for their new aircraft order.

Boeing expected it, too, because it took a full page color ad in the Frontier inflight magazine ("a proud bird") effectively saying it was a done deal. I guess the mag is in the Frontier archives somewhere.

But it wasn't a done deal. At that time, Boeing had a strong preference for blue chip customers and did not regard the upstart LCC's in this way. It would not cut Frontier any financial slack.

Frontier had to regroup. It had not considered Airbus previously, but now did (it had to have a board vote on it and not everyone was in favour).

But Airbus was inclined to show Frontier the door. Airbus said that it did not want to be used as a tool to get lower prices from Boeing.

Frontier was able to persuade them that the Boeing door was effectively closed and eventually Airbus agreed to a deal. Was it a good deal? Yes - but not spectacular, no one gave aircraft away.

All this was reported by then Frontier CEO Addoms at an AGM. It was recorded so I guess it will also be in the Frontier archives.

After all this (JetBlue/Frontier, etc) Boeing changed its strategy towards the upstart LCC's.

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Stitch
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 18):
Boeing did not want to sell their airplanes below cost. The US Government was not subsidizing the 737 program.

John Leahy's successful formula for selling aircraft in his early days as their salesperson was not by offering Airbus planes for a low price up-front, but by guaranteeing their back-end value when it came time to trade them in or re-sell them.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 13):
The 738 does West Coast-Hawaii. The 320 does not.

Big difference between "does not" and "cannot." The reason there are no A320's on that route is more due to an accident of history than due to anything technical.

It just happens that the airlines that want to fly a 738/A320 to Hawaii from the West Coast have 737's. The A320 is more than capable of doing that flight and indeed does operate similar flights in other parts of the world.
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cmf
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
Neeleman and the rest of the start up team always assumed that they would be a 737 operator, but Boeing wasn't willing to budge much on price whereas Airbus gave them an offer they couldn't refuse

Partially true. Boeing didn't like Neeleman's offer. Neeleman then went to Airbus who thought they were being used to negotiate down Boeing's price. After some time it became serious and at that point Airbus had convince them the A320 was the better option.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 18):
Boeing did not want to sell their airplanes below cost. The US Government was not subsidizing the 737 program.

Nor do Airbus. And there is nothing to suggest they did.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
The Jetblue launch was going to go with the 737 but Airbus gave them a package they couldn't refuse

As mentioned above. It took some time but they managed to highlight the advantages.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
This had to be one of John Leahy's Oscar performances because Neelman was a Boeing man when he had Morris Air

He saw the light

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
And why would Boeing give a startup carrier preferential pricing anyway, they had, and have, more than enough customers.

Boeing actually came back and offered to sell below the price Neeleman had proposed originally. But after seeing the A320 advantages he preferred to stay. Talking with other airlines was part of this. I think it was Swiss (air?) that was one of them.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:41 pm

Hawaii isn't a gold mine either... it's a tourist market and thus the yields are very low. Why spend all that money on ETOPS just for that? WN is going to learn that one the hard way.
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airliner371
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Partially true. Boeing didn't like Neeleman's offer. Neeleman then went to Airbus who thought they were being used to negotiate down Boeing's price. After some time it became serious and at that point Airbus had convince them the A320 was the better option.
Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Boeing actually came back and offered to sell below the price Neeleman had proposed originally. But after seeing the A320 advantages he preferred to stay. Talking with other airlines was part of this. I think it was Swiss (air?) that was one of them.

Their are a lot of different variiations of how it went, I have never heard this one.
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 33):
Their are a lot of different variiations of how it went,

There sure are LOL!

I do see regularly in an office i my facility some of the original drawings of "NewAir", which for a while became "AirTaxi" with a NYC checkered cab paint job....the paint jobs were on 737s. I still get a chuckle out of that. Sometimes its good to work directly with folks that have been there since day 1 LOL!

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 26):
Oh cool...I didnt even realize it was 162 a the beginning. Believe me, I like the 150

Yeah, someone I work with (trying to think WHO...I really need to take more ginko LOL) still regularly wears the "156 MOD" hat that they got.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
cmf
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RE: B6 & The 737

Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 33):
Their are a lot of different variiations of how it went, I have never heard this one.

There are, few of them are written down.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 34):
There sure are LOL!

I do see regularly in an office i my facility some of the original drawings of "NewAir", which for a while became "AirTaxi" with a NYC checkered cab paint job....the paint jobs were on 737s. I still get a chuckle out of that. Sometimes its good to work directly with folks that have been there since day 1 LOL!

Anyway to post of pics of those really interested in seeing what jetblue could have been
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 36):
Anyway to post of pics of those really interested in seeing what jetblue could have been

I'll see what I can do, no promises though.  

[EDIT] Come to think of it, this may be harder than I thought....I think that particular crew leader officially moved his office to the Long Island City Support Center (headquarters) when it opened so I don't even know if those drawings are in my facility anymore since he would have taken them with him. Now you got me wondering....  scratchchin 

I'll take a peek on Monday when I get into the office for ya.

[Edited 2012-10-06 09:31:56]
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
milesrich
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
John Leahy's successful formula for selling aircraft in his early days as their salesperson was not by offering Airbus planes for a low price up-front, but by guaranteeing their back-end value when it came time to trade them in or re-sell them.

Did Leahy foresee they would be worth more as parts? Airlines are not scrapping 737-800's that I know of.
 
cmf
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 38):
Airlines are not scrapping 737-800's that I know of.

It is too early in the product cycle for 737NGs to be scrapped for other than exceptional reasons.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 38):
Did Leahy foresee they would be worth more as parts? Airlines are not scrapping 737-800's that I know of.

The oldest A320s are a decade old than the 737NGs.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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SEPilot
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
So I was off a bit on the dates. I don't think though that Boeing is harboring any deep regrets and I doubt they didn't want JetBlue. The scenario was more likely that Boeing wanted a bit more security than B6 was able to provide. And why would Boeing give a startup carrier preferential pricing anyway, they had, and have, more than enough customers.

This is exactly the mindset that cost Boeing the position of largest airliner manufacturer. Airbus was out fighting for every order, while Boeing was sitting on their laurels and thinking that the customers needed them more than they needed the customers. This is never a healthy attitude for any company, and every one that adopts it either comes to their senses (which I hope Boeing has) or fails.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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mariner
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 41):
on their laurels and thinking that the customers needed them more than they needed the customers. This is never a healthy attitude for any company, and every one that adopts it either comes to their senses (which I hope Boeing has) or fails.

Certainly Boeing changed. After what had happened with JetBlue and Frontier, in 2002 Boeing was aware that Easyjet was in danger of "slipping away" and it is one reason why Ryanair got the deal that Michael O'Leary bragged about.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Jetmarc
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 34):
I do see regularly in an office i my facility some of the original drawings of "NewAir", which for a while became "AirTaxi" with a NYC checkered cab paint job....the paint jobs were on 737s. I still get a chuckle out of that. Sometimes its good to work directly with folks that have been there since day 1 LOL!

I remember seeing these too... aren't they renderings of B737-200s? I liked the NewAir paint scheme of "real" clouds/blue sky on the tail and engines.
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
airliner371
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RE: B6 & The 737

Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 41):
of largest airliner manufacturer

Largest isn't always best....
 
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SEPilot
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RE: B6 & The 737

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 44):
Largest isn't always best...

But I have yet to see one that desired to go from first to second (read last) place.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
airliner371
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RE: B6 & The 737

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 45):
But I have yet to see one that desired to go from first to second (read last) place.

No, of course you want to be largest but does it really matter, no not at all. Delta is second but would you say they lost a lot by not being the "Largest Airline in the World," again not at all.

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