flyboynk
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Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:17 pm

Spirit today announced internally that Dec 1st, 2012 they will open up a DFW crew base ( FA and Pilots)

The DFW base will be built up using transfers from other bases ( FLL, DTW, LAS, ACY) and local hiring in the
DFW, surrounding Texas cities and Midwest areas.

Spirit plans to fly to 26 or more destinations nonstop from DFW as of June 2013 including domestic and Int'l...
Flyboynk
 
OB1504
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:34 am

It's impressive how quickly they've grown at DFW since opening the station on May 5th, 2011.

I hope they transition to organic (rather than outsourced) customer and ramp service agents as the operation continues to grow.
 
freakyrat
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:23 am

Spirit plans to fly to 26 or more destinations nonstop from DFW as of June 2013 including domestic and Int'l...

Could it include some secondary destinations similar to the way Allegiant operates? Like DFW-SBN, DFW-GRR, DFW-RFD ?
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 2):
Spirit plans to fly to 26 or more destinations nonstop from DFW as of June 2013 including domestic and Int'l...

Could it include some secondary destinations similar to the way Allegiant operates? Like DFW-SBN, DFW-GRR, DFW-RFD ?

I would love to see DFW-CID! Wonder if they could do something similar at DFW like F9 does at DEN to secondary markets. There's a lot of possibilities out there...will be interesting to see what happens with NK at DFW.
 
4engines4lnghll
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:03 am

26 routes and a couple of gates at terminal E..... how is this suppose to play out?
4engines4lnghll
 
freakyrat
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:10 am

The old E satellite terminal has a bunch of jetways installed and is going to be reactivated while they remodel terminal E. I can see Spirit using it when the remodel is finished.
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 5):
The old E satellite terminal has a bunch of jetways installed and is going to be reactivated while they remodel terminal E. I can see Spirit using it when the remodel is finished.

I could see this too, would be a nice number of gates to run a small hub out of
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:37 pm

In fact, according to this article, the E satelittle is re-opening for good and they don't plan to shut it off once remodeling is complete:
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...lite-as-it-remodels-terminal-e.ece
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 4):
26 routes and a couple of gates at terminal E..... how is this suppose to play out?

No destination has more than two daily flights and most are just one flight a day. I believe NK will use no more than four gates to run the announced schedule.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:31 pm

I wonder if there is another announcement coming with this one. 5 pilot bases is a lot for the size that they currently are. Acy and Dtw are such small operations compared to the rest of their bases I wonder if one of them will close soon. I think acy would go before Dtw because of size but if they ever wanted to open up ord the could never have ord and Dtw
 
usairways85
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 8):
No destination has more than two daily flights and most are just one flight a day. I believe NK will use no more than four gates to run the announced schedule.

I was just going to say this, it's not like NK is running a 4-6 flts a day on many routes. I mean DFW-PHL starts this spring I believe with 5x weekly and then a whopping 1 daily.
 
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TWA1985
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:47 pm

Does anyone see an ORD crew base in Spirit's future?
Live Young. Live Wild. Live Free.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:06 pm

There are internal rumors that the company may plan to wind down either the DTW or ACY crew bases as DFW is built up. The company hasn't announced how they are going to move forward with the DFW implementation. Long term, I believe NK would prefer to have bases in ORD, DFW, FLL and LAS as they transition to a larger carrier. ACY and DTW's relevance seems to be diminishing.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 8):

No destination has more than two daily flights and most are just one flight a day. I believe NK will use no more than four gates to run the announced schedule.

Yes the route map is impressive for a carrier NK's size, but when you see most destinations are 1x daily, with a few exceptions, it's not so much. That being said even at 11pm at night both NK's E gates were being used when we flew back from DFW to PDX last month, the other flight going to Toluca.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
toltommy
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 9):
5 pilot bases is a lot for the size that they currently are.

If you think in terms of a traditional hub and spoke airline, yes. But NK has embraced the Ryanair model. Ryanair has dozens of crew bases. This allows the crews to be home nightly, avoiding a lot of layover costs. I bet you'll see more, not less going forward.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:52 pm

Seems like a good move for spirit. They clearly want to expand more in DFW. AA is a weak animal right now who is not fighting them and I am sure its angry employees telling relatives and friends how much they hate AA is helping spirit to get new people to try them when they see a cheap non-stop pull up online. Seems like a great time to make a major push into a fortress hub people thought was unpenetrable. Clearly they are making DFW work acceptably well. I think spirit saw southwest in Denver and is trying the same very fast expansion strategy.

Quoting flyboynk (Thread starter):
Spirit plans to fly to 26 or more destinations nonstop from DFW as of June 2013 including domestic and Int'l...

Clearly AA will care about this average and more importantly last minute non-stops will see price decreases. I think AA knows they cant do anything to stop it without loosing a ton so they have to sit there and watch the 757 sale happen.
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
AA is a weak animal right now who is not fighting them

I doubt AA would be doing much of anything in response to Spirit's growth at DFW even if it were in a far stronger position, since I suspect Spirit's growth at DFW has little direct impact on AA. The two are catering to two vastly different markets. Spirit is attracting the most ultra-price-conscious, non-regular traveler willing to accept suboptimal schedules and/or frequencies, etc. I suspect Spirit is using low fares to stimulate demand in markets rather than taking much of any traffic away from AA (and besides, AA was likely set to reduce capacity somewhat and stop catering to some of this very same lower-yielding traffic anyway).

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
I am sure its angry employees telling relatives and friends how much they hate AA is helping spirit to get new people to try them when they see a cheap non-stop pull up online.

Doubtful. Most people in the Metroplex fly AA or Southwest not because they know somebody who is either happy or unhappy to works for either airline (although just about everybody in the Metroplex does know somebody who works for either or both) but because of convenience - AA and Southwest go to where most people want to go, often many times per day. That isn't going to change just because some AA employees are disgruntled. And besides - AA employees being disgruntled is nothing new - if that alone was going to supposedly drive traffic to other carriers, it would have done so long ago.

Now, it certainly is true that Spirit does stimulate and attract a certain level of demand from people who see their ultra-low base fares (before all the extra fees and add-ons many people end up getting charged), but again, many of those people weren't flying AA already anyway.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
Seems like a great time to make a major push into a fortress hub people thought was unpenetrable.

I still do think it's relatively impenetrable, at least to Spirit. To be clear - I'm not saying AA as an airline is invincible, or that AA's hub at DFW specifically is invincible, but that DFW as a hub - for whatever airline has it (and that happens to be AA) is likely to be a fairly tough nut to crack for a competitor, since the Metroplex effectively already has to major, hub airlines.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
Clearly AA will care about this average and more importantly last minute non-stops will see price decreases.

Unlikely. Spirit has been growing at DFW for the last 18 months, and it doesn't appear to have appreciably altered fares. Again - the customer Spirit is going after is a customer that AA was less interested in catering to, anyway.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
I think AA knows they cant do anything to stop it without loosing a ton so they have to sit there and watch the 757 sale happen.

Well again, AA would have sat there and "watched" this silly fare sale happen either way. What would you expect AA to do? AA is certainly not going to drop all their fares at DFW by 20% over an airline that has 1 daily flight to 20 destinations - the days of airlines stupidly pricing that way are long gone. It would be different if it were Delta coming in and adding 20 well-timed daily flights to some of AA's strategically critical, high-yielding O&D markets (LAX, LGA, DCA, MIA, SFO, etc.) - but an airline that caters to such a different customer set than AA isn't really worth getting all worked up about.

I believe that AA would be (non)responding the same way no matter if it were bankrupt or not.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I believe that AA would be (non)responding the same way no matter if it were bankrupt or not.

Its good to see some people living in total denial    . Not to attack you but let me guess huge AA fan who wants to believe all is fine and dandy over at AA?   You know you opened this thread to defend AA when someone went there and ill admit i did throw out some tasty bate   

You really think AA last minute fares wont be affected when spirit has fares of let say $220 last minute to the same destination non-stop? Of course AA will sell less $850 tickets its inevitable. The spirit effect hasn't happened yet its too soon and spirit has not grown nearly to the size i think the want. Some businesses travel programs will force their employees to take a fare of that difference or say why they are paying so much of a higher fare and i want the miles is not acceptable.

AA flys alot of DFW flyers they are not all high yielding business travellers this will effect them and fares. Sure it clear wont effect all of AAs travellers but it will effect some and clearly AA cant like it. If they were not in bankrupcy they would not have let them roll into DFW so easily AA would not be allowed to do some big money loosing moving in its bankrupt position
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
living in total denial

I am not living in any denial at all.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
Not to attack you but let me guess huge AA fan who wants to believe all is fine and dandy over at AA?

"Not to attack you..." That's funny.

Nobody is suggesting that "all is fine and dandy" at AA.

And, as I clearly stated, the comments I'm making are really more about the DFW market than about AA specifically. I think the same would go for whatever airline was hubbing at DFW - it just so happens that airline is AA. I would be saying the exact same thing if Spirit was opening a large station with 1x flight per day to 20 different places out of ATL up against Delta - same pattern, same relatively minor impact on the hub airline, some general non-response from said hub airline.

If you disagree, or want to make this about me and my "denial," then fine. Whatever.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
You really think AA last minute fares wont be affected when spirit has fares of let say $220 last minute to the same destination non-stop? Of course AA will sell less $850 tickets its inevitable.

Yes. I really think that. And I'm not the only one who thinks that. Will Spirit affect AA pricing in some markets, some times? Sure. Nobody is debating that. But I think the impact will be quite minimal, for the reasons I already stated.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
The spirit effect hasn't happened yet its too soon and spirit has not grown nearly to the size i think the want.

I agree Spirit is probably still interested in growing further at DFW, but either way, from what I've seen the "Spirit effect" has far more of an impact on stimulating ultra-price-conscious demand, rather than eroding much of the demand already present in the market.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
Some businesses travel programs will force their employees to take a fare of that difference or say why they are paying so much of a higher fare and i want the miles is not acceptable.

Of all the impact Spirit may or may not ultimately have at DFW in general, or against AA specifically, this will be the absolutely least of it. No - I simply think you are wrong if you're suggesting that much business travel at all will shift to Spirit. Very few companies will have any form of agreements with Spirit, its limited network and schedule will diminish its value to business travelers, and its pricing will simply not be acceptable to many corporate travelers for whom flexibility is often more valuable than just the base fare. Again - I'm not debating that Spirit may peal off some AA customers - including perhaps even some business travel - but the business travel Spirit is able to steal away from AA will be very, very minimal.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
AA flys alot of DFW flyers they are not all high yielding business travellers this will effect them and fares. Sure it clear wont effect all of AAs travellers but it will effect some and clearly AA cant like it.

Well obviously. Of course AA would prefer zero competition and a complete monopoly. That goes for any business. But again - as competitive threats go - Spirit is a minimal one, in my view, since it caters to a market that overlaps relatively very little with the market AA focuses on.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
If they were not in bankrupcy they would not have let them roll into DFW so easily AA

Sure they would.

[Edited 2012-10-06 15:36:12]
 
txjim
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 3):
I would love to see DFW-CID! Wonder if they could do something similar at DFW like F9 does at DEN to secondary markets. There's a lot of possibilities out there...will be interesting to see what happens with NK at DFW.

Unless the major corporate client on this route changes it's policy, I don't see this as viable on a daily basis.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:25 am

The thing about the Ryan air model is that take dtw for example. Even in its peak travel season there are only 17-20 flights per day departing. There are also no more cities I can think of that nk could serve out of Dtw. There are more flights per day out of ord and ord is a destination itself so long term I think spirit would have to open an ord base.

[Edited 2012-10-06 19:26:07]
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:54 am

Quoting txjim (Reply 19):
Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 3):I would love to see DFW-CID! Wonder if they could do something similar at DFW like F9 does at DEN to secondary markets. There's a lot of possibilities out there...will be interesting to see what happens with NK at DFW.
Quoting txjim (Reply 19):

Unless the major corporate client on this route changes it's policy, I don't see this as viable on a daily basis.

i was thinking more along the lines if they turn DFW into a connecting hub along the lines of what Frontier has in DEN. CID has both UA/F9 on CID-DEN....if NK develops into a connecting hub for DFW I was wondering if they would possibly go into smaller/underserved markets that SWA ignores. Many cities had DL/FL to ATL and now F9/UA to DEN. If we see NK grow perhaps we could see some cities with AA/NK to DFW.
 
OB1504
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
You really think AA last minute fares wont be affected when spirit has fares of let say $220 last minute to the same destination non-stop? Of course AA will sell less $850 tickets its inevitable. The spirit effect hasn't happened yet its too soon and spirit has not grown nearly to the size i think the want. Some businesses travel programs will force their employees to take a fare of that difference or say why they are paying so much of a higher fare and i want the miles is not acceptable.
commavia is exactly right, and I say that as a former employee.

An airline of Spirit's relatively small size would be suicidal to go head-to-head against any established legacy, so instead they poach from Greyhound.

The Southwest effect and the Spirit effect are two different things. Southwest resulted in lower fares for everybody, while Spirit charges seemingly unsustainable fares for people (like me) who would either fly Spriit or just not fly at all. If it's not a $40-$80 roundtrip airfare, I don't go.

I say "seemingly unsustainable" because the fares end up being roughly equivalent once you factor in optional services that most passengers tend to use, which is why I doubt that business travel departments would force employees to switch considering that the savings would be marginal at best.

Spirit is pursuing an entirely different segment of the market and they can happily coexist with other airlines like American.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:19 pm

To start lets all say i am saying my opinion and you are saying yours none of us know and ill admit that. We dont really know what exactly spirit will do yet how large and its a new scenario. Spirit has never been so bold and aggressive moving into a legacy fortress hub. I just think this one is different their objective that is but maybe im wrong but we dont know. I think spirit will have the southwest effect because of how large i think they want to go here its not gonna be an ACY spirit of years back.

I think i have a much better understanding of how corporate travel works then you both do. First of all its not as simple as spirit verses AA on price. US airways in particular will see what fares are and lower connections to get last minute fares they love to montior fares. Spirits fares will effect US who then delta will lower then AA is forced to lower fares its a matching that you dont need to do in DFW before spirit rolled into town. Its a domino effect spirit will lower fares if they add as many routes as they say.

Most companies have gotten much more aggressive on pricing and watching employees. I work for a company that still lets us fly business on JFK-LAX/SFO on united which is RARE nowdays so very far from cheap and they have gotten much tougher. A few years ago i purchased a EWR-CHS N/S for like 800 dollars and like everytime you book a fare significantly more than the lowest at the same times it has a window pop open stating why you booked that and a reason, i want the miles or im an elite is not acceptable. They are being much more proactive now and reading those. American Express called my travel department who then told them to switch me to a connection in CLT on USairways at the same times which was a few hundred less. I also had a co-worker who booked EWR-MYR N/S on united for a high price and American Express Travel again called our company who switched him to spirit N/S out of LGA which was alot cheaper. Those are rare cases i travel alot and if its somwhat close they dont care but if AA wants to charge $900 last minute N/S and spirit and everyone is matching connections at $350 you are going to have people being blocked. If AA doesnt lower fares they will loose out on some DFW o&d to spirit and other airlines its as simple as that and its gonna be more to the USairways or deltas that price match with a connection. I admit DFW is proabably a gold mine right now for AA but that is exactly why spirit wants in there not to stimulate demand that is rediculous. They dont want in DFW because greyhound does so well there.

Show me a study saying spirit is stealing from greyhound not airlines i dont believe it. Its people on kayak who see the lowest fare and book many of whom would book AA. Allegiant is an ariline that stimulates demand not spirit, spirit shows up on all the booking sites and steals that is why they want these high volume routes. I have certainly booked spirit before last minute all the times i flew on them i would have flown a legacy.
 
dtwpilot225
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:59 pm

So they posted the numbers and its 30 crews initially going to Dfw crews are being displaced from fll, Dtw and acy. They did not do this when they opened las. Fll could be due to construction but maybe this is the beginning of the end for acy or Dtw or both?
 
commavia
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
We dont really know what exactly spirit will do yet how large and its a new scenario. Spirit has never been so bold and aggressive moving into a legacy fortress hub. I just think this one is different their objective that is but maybe im wrong but we dont know.

True - nobody knows for certain what the future holds. But we can observe other, similar markets (not perfect facsimilies but similar nonetheless) and observe what the outcome has been there.

South Florida is the obvious choice. The differences in that market are clear - its two airports versus one, the network hub is smaller, and the non-hub airline competition is in some ways greater. Nonetheless, in South Florida - MIA and FLL in particular - you have for several years had not only a massive AA fortress hub, but also a large (and until recently rapidly-growing) ultra-low-fare Spirit hub. And what have the results been? At least for AA, nothing but positive. Demand has continued to grow, the hub continues to set records each season, and in most places where the two have gone qausi-head-to-head, AA has in most cases ended up still having substantially more capacity than Spirit.

The two have generally found a way to coexist because - again - they are catering to totally different markets.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
I think i have a much better understanding of how corporate travel works then you both do.

I don't.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
First of all its not as simple as spirit verses AA on price. US airways in particular will see what fares are and lower connections to get last minute fares they love to montior fares. Spirits fares will effect US who then delta will lower then AA is forced to lower fares its a matching that you dont need to do in DFW before spirit rolled into town. Its a domino effect spirit will lower fares if they add as many routes as they say.

Most companies have gotten much more aggressive on pricing and watching employees. I work for a company that still lets us fly business on JFK-LAX/SFO on united which is RARE nowdays so very far from cheap and they have gotten much tougher. A few years ago i purchased a EWR-CHS N/S for like 800 dollars and like everytime you book a fare significantly more than the lowest at the same times it has a window pop open stating why you booked that and a reason, i want the miles or im an elite is not acceptable. They are being much more proactive now and reading those. American Express called my travel department who then told them to switch me to a connection in CLT on USairways at the same times which was a few hundred less. I also had a co-worker who booked EWR-MYR N/S on united for a high price and American Express Travel again called our company who switched him to spirit N/S out of LGA which was alot cheaper. Those are rare cases i travel alot and if its somwhat close they dont care but if AA wants to charge $900 last minute N/S and spirit and everyone is matching connections at $350 you are going to have people being blocked. If AA doesnt lower fares they will loose out on some DFW o&d to spirit and other airlines its as simple as that and its gonna be more to the USairways or deltas that price match with a connection. I admit DFW is proabably a gold mine right now for AA but that is exactly why spirit wants in there not to stimulate demand that is rediculous. They dont want in DFW because greyhound does so well there.

I disagree. As a corporate traveler myself, and somebody who helps book travel, for myself and others, business and leisure, I do not believe Spirit is going to steal any major amount of AA O&D customers in and out of DFW - especially business customers.

Many corporate travel policies have exceptions you could drive a truck through allowing employees to book a higher fare for a nonstop vs a connection, or at a more convenient time, and that's before we even factor in that Spirit still flies to relatively so few places from DFW - Spirit could literally triple the number of cities it serve nonstop from DFW and AA would still fly nonstop to nearly two and a half times as many markets.

Business customers in particular are sensitive not just to price but also convenience - they value network breadth, schedule flexibility and frequent flyer rewards - all areas where Spirit is absolutely no match for AA, with business travelers and all but the absolutely-most-price-elastic leisure customers, too.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
Show me a study saying spirit is stealing from greyhound not airlines i dont believe it.

Show me a study saying Spirit is sealing any significant amount of traffic from airlines. Personally, I don't believe that.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
Its people on kayak who see the lowest fare and book many of whom would book AA.

Does that happen to some extent? Sure. I am not saying that some portion of AA passengers - including even some business customers - are going to get peeled off and switch to Spirit. But my view is that portion is so relatively insignificant in the scheme of things that it will not have any material impact on AA. Spirit and AA can easily coexist in DFW, just a they easily coexist in South Florida.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
I have certainly booked spirit before last minute all the times i flew on them i would have flown a legacy.

Sure - and I know plenty of people who refuse to ever fly Spirit because of the schedules, the fees and or the bare-bones service. And, I also know several travelers - in the Metroplex, no less - who flew Spirit once and, because of the disconnect between their expectations and the product Spirit actually provided them, refused to ever fly Spirit again. "Next time, I don't care if American is $300 more expensive - I will never fly Spirit again." That is a direct quote. Anecdotal, I know - but the bottom line is that it's all give and take.

[Edited 2012-10-07 17:02:57]
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Show me a study saying Spirit is sealing any significant amount of traffic from airlines. Personally, I don't believe that.

That's because there is none. You are 100% accurate in your defenses and SLC is stretching assumptions and trying to pass them off as truths, which is really scraping for nonexistent data.

Let's look at a sample, non-DFW market: ORDLAX. NK entered this route in April 2011, roughly a month before VX even started on this route.

With two entrenched legacy carriers (AA and UA) offering DEQMs and DRDMs on ORDLAX for the entire summer 2011, a novel, hip startup player like VX, and an ULCC like NK, one would assume that this "bloodbath" scenario on a highly corporate-heavy route, per SLC's logic, would cause one of them to falter.

According to CAPA, Spirit's management generally allow a market 6 months to a year for a carrier to reach a level of maturity that produces profitability. Well, low and behold the ORDLAX flight did not perform to expectations, and NK dropped it last month. Put simply, even with bottom-barrel fares on a high-volume route, NK failed to gain any traction with its no-frills product.

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 24):
Does that happen to some extent? Sure. I am not saying that some portion of AA passengers - including even some business customers - are going to get peeled off and switch to Spirit. But my view is that portion is so relatively insignificant in the scheme of things that it will not have any material impact on AA. Spirit and AA can easily coexist in DFW, just a they easily coexist in South Florida.

  

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Sure - and I know plenty of people who refuse to every fly Spirit because of the schedules, the fees and or the bare-bones service. And, I also know several travelers - in the Metroplex, no less - who flew Spirit once and, because of the disconnect between the disconnect between their expectations and the product Spirit actually provided them, refused to ever fly Spirit again. "Next time, I don't care if American is $300 more expensive - I will never fly Spirit again." That is a direct quote. Anecdotal, I know - but the bottom line is that it's all give and take.

Precisely. The traveling public, both corporate and leisure, do not fall into binary categories - it is all very fragmented. I, for one, travel for both work and personal, and even with UA elite status, I tend to be very price discretionary. Despite the fact that NK always prices out the cheapest on flights out of ORD, 99% of the time I'll skim over the option - just simply by knowing that even with the best fare, the overall value-added of flying with NK isn't justifiable to go with them versus paying $50-75 more to fly with the legacy carrier. Paying $220 to fly ORD-DFW r/t on UA, instead of $164 on NK, for example, I'll earn my EQMs, bonus RDMs, enjoy free checked luggage, priority access/boarding, EconomyPlus, and lounge access at both airports. Done deal.
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flyboynk
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 24):
So they posted the numbers and its 30 crews initially going to Dfw crews are being displaced from fll, Dtw and acy. They did not do this when they opened las. Fll could be due to construction but maybe this is the beginning of the end for acy or Dtw or both?

Hmmm, actually it has not been posted yet on exactly how many. I have checked personal and company email. Nothing yet.
Second they won't be displaced since they would first ask for voluntary transfers (that is not displaced) also if they were to displace flight attendants (only after seeing how many voluntarily transfer and local hiring) it would happen displacing from FLL, DTW, ACY and LAS not only the first three with the most junior FA being in LAS...plus they are hiring in the DFW area for FA already (open house to come soon)

Not sure were you claim to have gotten the info and numbers but from what I can tell you (as en employee) nothing has been posted yet.. it will be later this week...

By mid to end of 2013 they plan on having 150 to 200 FA's in DFW crewbase. Yes this is in part due to NK not albe to grow in FLL due to construction over the next few years not the end of DTW and ACY in any way. Now if they ever open an ORD crewbase then DTW might......

[Edited 2012-10-07 17:04:12]
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:16 am

Look im in no way saying that spirit is going to roll major AA elites into spirit fans i never once said that. I am merely saying that spirit IS going to have an effect on AA and lower the price that AA is going to be able to charge out of DFW. It will be US lowering its fares or other airlines etc then AA trying to be competative etc etc.

I dont think the FLL comparison is valid at all. Its not the same airport pure and simple. I also think spirit is trying to do something different here
 
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:17 am

ORD to LAX returns on NK on November 8th. It was stopped from 10/4 to 11/8. So much for that analysis...
 
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 28):
I am merely saying that spirit IS going to have an effect on AA and lower the price that AA is going to be able to charge out of DFW.

If it does it is by VERY little. Spirit attracts a completely different customer.
 
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:23 am

I don't think that AA is really going to care one way or another what NK charges as their products are totally different.
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:35 am

Blah, Blah filler, filler feel free to delete this.................

[Edited 2012-10-07 19:01:07]
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 26):
According to CAPA, Spirit's management generally allow a market 6 months to a year for a carrier to reach a level of maturity that produces profitability. Well, low and behold the ORDLAX flight did not perform to expectations, and NK dropped it last month. Put simply, even with bottom-barrel fares on a high-volume route, NK failed to gain any traction with its no-frills product.

   The Spirit model is not suited to every market. Spirit knows it and the other airlines know it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Sure - and I know plenty of people who refuse to ever fly Spirit because of the schedules, the fees and or the bare-bones service. And, I also know several travelers - in the Metroplex, no less - who flew Spirit once and, because of the disconnect between their expectations and the product Spirit actually provided them, refused to ever fly Spirit again. "Next time, I don't care if American is $300 more expensive - I will never fly Spirit again." That is a direct quote. Anecdotal, I know - but the bottom line is that it's all give and take.

Take that quote with a grain of salt, though. Many times, money talks louder than words.

"Spirit sucks, I'm never flying them again."

(two months later)

"Spirit sucks. I'm never flying them again."
"Didn't you say that last time? Why are you still flying them?"
"They were $1 cheaper."

  

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 30):
If it does it is by VERY little. Spirit attracts a completely different customer.

   The effect will be marginal at best. And, like Southwest, Spirit is not always the cheapest option. (but their respective managements thank you for thinking that!)

Quoting type-rated (Reply 31):
I don't think that AA is really going to care one way or another what NK charges as their products are totally different.

   AA is a full-service carrier, and it would be idiotic to attempt to compete for same small segment of the market as NK.

[Edited 2012-10-07 18:39:41]
 
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 30):
Spirit attracts a completely different customer.

The few people I spoke with on my one and only NK trip, stated they would not have been flying at all had it not been for the fare they got, fact of the matter is, the fare was so low they decided to take an otherwise unplanned, and unintended trip, including the two of us. I will never say never, but I won't do it ever again intentionally.
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 17):
Its good to see some people living in total denial . Not to attack you but let me guess huge AA fan who wants to believe all is fine and dandy over at AA?

Do you have a slightest idea how big AA is at DFW? You cannot compare AA with any other airline at DFW. It's just too big.
 
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 29):
ORD to LAX returns on NK on November 8th. It was stopped from 10/4 to 11/8. So much for that analysis...

Wasn't aware of this. Thanks for the correction and the back-handed compliment, I guess?  

NK is also pulling out of DFWBOS. That is analogous to ORDLAX and frankly, it's all a moot point anyway. The idea that NK is stealing competing traffic away from legacy carriers and putting a dagger into their yields and profit margins is a VERY flawed assumption and I don't know why people seemingly want to embrace this concept despite the fact that there are virtually NO public data points available to prove this.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 28):
I am merely saying that spirit IS going to have an effect on AA and lower the price that AA is going to be able to charge out of DFW. It will be US lowering its fares or other airlines etc then AA trying to be competative etc etc.

What?! This is absurd. Do you work in airline pricing? Do you have interior knowledge of how pricing works? Because to claim that it works like an A to B to C type of domino-effect affair is unsustainable in times like these.

For instance, if NK charges $120 O/W from DFW to ORD, and US follows suit by doing so flying a two-leg DFW-CLT-ORD for the same fare match, AA is NOT going to drop their o/w fare on the same routing, period. It would be foolish to do so. It's US that will have to contend with poorer yields with diluted R/ASMs (spread across two segments, to make it worse) and not AA's loss to worry about because they will have no problem filling up that plane with a last minute $500 o/w walkup fare. You know why? Because of the nature of the DFW hub: it is THAT high-yielding for AA. Period.

If you're trying to take a crack at AA here, and the viability of their DFW hub and it's market power, please give it a rest. I am neither an AA apologist, fan nor elite flyer; but I am realistic enough to know that they maintain a command at that airport which is virtually indomitable.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 28):
I dont think the FLL comparison is valid at all. Its not the same airport pure and simple. I also think spirit is trying to do something different here

Ok. Have it your way. The day that AA dismantles their prosperous MIA hub for a narrow body-run only airline a few miles up I-95 thanks to "pricing power," I'll buy you a roundtrip ticket on NK to Lima and you can enjoy their non-reclining seats on a 6 hr + journey.
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
Ok. Have it your way. The day that AA dismantles their prosperous MIA hub for a narrow body-run only airline a few miles up I-95 thanks to "pricing power," I'll buy you a roundtrip ticket on NK to Lima and you can enjoy their non-reclining seats on a 6 hr + journey.

YOU ARE REDICULOUS. Did i ever say this would happen? You are literally making stuff up i NEVER said. I said this:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 28):
I dont think the FLL comparison is valid at all. Its not the same airport pure and simple. I also think spirit is trying to do something different here
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
If you're trying to take a crack at AA here,



When did i say this? I like AA I am trying to fight the spirit has 0.000000% negative effect on AA rediculous idea on here. I dont think its a major major effect its not another hub but it is certainly not insignificant for AA

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
and the viability of their DFW hub and it's market power

When did i say THIS?
I actually said this

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
I admit DFW is proabably a gold mine right now for AA but that is exactly why spirit wants in there
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
I am realistic enough to know that they maintain a command at that airport which is virtually indomitable.

I said its a fortress hub.


Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 36):
For instance, if NK charges $120 O/W from DFW to ORD, and US follows suit by doing so flying a two-leg DFW-CLT-ORD for the same fare match, AA is NOT going to drop their o/w fare on the same routing, period.

If spirit is charging $120 last minute N/S lets just say in theory US will lower to something like $200 when they have a decent amount of seats and then delta will lower to $250 something like that so AAs $850 N/S fare has to be lowered now the fortress hub pricing gets rocked a little. I never said AA would lower to spirits price im saying the spirit price will make AA lower some of its last minute fares and kill some of its previous goldmines. Look at Denver. Look at last minute fares in/out of Denver on all legacy carriers they all watch each others prices and dont want to be rediculously off and why airports like CVG with no low cost carriers have the highest fares. Just because AA and spirit have a different target audience doesnt mean its totally insignifciant for AA when spirit has N/S seats for $120 last minute and AA wants to charge $900 on the same route.

Clearly i need to post this again even though i already said it

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
To start lets all say i am saying my opinion and you are saying yours none of us know and ill admit that. We dont really know what exactly spirit will do yet how large and its a new scenario. Spirit has never been so bold and aggressive moving into a legacy fortress hub. I just think this one is different their objective that is but maybe im wrong but we dont know. I think spirit will have the southwest effect because of how large i think they want to go here its not gonna be an ACY spirit of years back.


[Edited 2012-10-07 22:13:57]
 
flyboynk
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:08 am

Today Spirit announced it will start the DFW FA Crew base with 60 initial flight attendants... made up of voluntary transfers and local hiring and will continue to grow according to flights added ( I figure this number will go up quickly)

No news on the DFW Pilot crew base as of yet...
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 14):
But NK has embraced the Ryanair model. Ryanair has dozens of crew bases. This allows the crews to be home nightly, avoiding a lot of layover costs. I bet you'll see more, not less going forward.

I too think this is what is happening.


To much of the rest of this thread seems to be triggered by someone who wants to argue. The reality is that Spirit and AA compete for two different customers with a little overlap in the cheap customer. I have a number of cousins who love to fly the discount airlines. They buy a change of clothes and leave them with friends/relatives at various destinations.

But that doesn't mean there is no crossover. Some of those customers will be small business owners trying to save as much as possible. Different strokes for different folks...

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flyboynk
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RE: Spirit Opening DFW Crew Base Dec 1st 2012

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting flyboynk (Reply 38):
Today Spirit announced it will start the DFW FA Crew base with 60 initial flight attendants... made up of voluntary transfers and local hiring and will continue to grow according to flights added ( I figure this number will go up quickly)

No news on the DFW Pilot crew base as of yet...

Updated as of today Oct 9th....

“The new base will be home to over 250 crewmembers, including approximately 170 flight attendants and 80 pilots by summer 2013,” Spirit said in its announcement. “In addition, Spirit’s maintenance base at DFW, which opened earlier this year, will grow to employ over 30 mechanics and maintenance support personnel by next summer.” as quoted from Spirit chief operating officer Tony Lefebvre
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