PHX787
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:17 am

This thread is mostly for my fellow CVG fliers...

What's the history behind the service that was offered to Europe from CVG? Was all of this or one of it (like the current CDG route) subsidized by P&G? How long does this last? Is it a contract, is it something paid for by P&G, who operated before DL created the hub at CVG, if there was any? If DL cuts the route, what happens?

Lots of questions, not enough knowledge for me to answer myself   

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FlyASAGuy2005
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
If DL cuts the route, what happens?

As long as P&G is buying seats in bulk, DL will not cut the route. Look at RDU-LHR for AA; and CVG is a MUCH larger station for DL than RDU is for AA.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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Aesma
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:57 am

What's the reason for flying into CDG ?
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FlyASAGuy2005
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
What's the reason for flying into CDG ?

They have a huge site and office in Paris..
What gets measured gets done.
 
PHX787
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
As long as P&G is buying seats in bulk, DL will not cut the route. Look at RDU-LHR for AA; and CVG is a MUCH larger station for DL than RDU is for AA.

Ah that really makes sense too.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 3):
They have a huge site and office in Paris..

What ever happened to the Sabena route? I knew that was cut as a result of them shutting down, but doesn't P&G have offices there too?
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zkojq
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
Look at RDU-LHR for AA

Which company subsidizes this route, or are we still talking about Procter & Gamble?
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FlyASAGuy2005
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 5):

Which company subsidizes this route, or are we still talking about Procter & Gamble?

Several pool money for AA's LHR-RDU route. IDK which specifically but quite a few in and around the RTP.
What gets measured gets done.
 
flyguy89
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
What's the history behind the service that was offered to Europe from CVG?

The first European flight was from CVG to LGW which, according to departedflights.com, began in 1987, FRA followed not long after. The core European routes from CVG were always LGW, FRA, and ORY/CDG, all three of which were operating by 1990 and were flown year-round until FRA and LGW were discontinued in 2008/2009 I believe. Other European routes from CVG included FCO, AMS, MUC, ZRH, and BRU, but the addition and subtraction of these routes basically came and went with the various alliances and agreements DL had before they founded SkyTeam. ZRH was operated by DL, I believe, as part of their Atlantic Excellence Alliance with Swissair and was operated from 1993-2000 (again, hat tip to departedflights.com). Sabena operated service to BRU starting around the mid-1990's as part of this same Atlantic Excellence Alliance as well I believe. At the time, P&G had their main European offices in Brussels, so Sabena carried A LOT of local corporate traffic, so much so that they went on record stating that CVG was their most profitable North American route and often up-gauged it to a 747-300. Sabena flights were discontinued in March of 2000 with the formation of SkyTeam and the dissolution of the agreement between DL and Sabena. Soon after Sabena pulled out, AF commenced service to CVG, initially with 767's, then up-gauged to 747's in the summer months before 9/11 IIRC. After 9/11, AF had an on-again off-again relationship with CVG using a mix of A340's and A330's, FCO and AMS were added subsequent to KLM and Alitalia joining SkyTeam.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Was all of this or one of it (like the current CDG route) subsidized by P&G?

Keep in mind that P&G is not the only frequent user of this flight, other local companies such as GE Aviation, Convergys, Cintas, dunnhumbyUSA, Landor, and Kroger also regularly send people to Europe, though definitely not at the volume that P&G does. Having said that, no, obviously during the boom times the bulk of these European flights were supported by connecting traffic, having at least a solid amount of high yielding local traffic definitely did play a part though in making the European flights from CVG some of the most profitable in DL's system.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
If DL cuts the route, what happens?

I would think when, if ever, the route becomes a loser for DL, they'll put the airport and companies with contracts for the flight on notice with some time to come up with an subsidy package which I'm sure the city would do. I doubt DL would ever discontinue though, regardless of what happens to the CVG. Even if the local area has to pony up subsidy payments at some point, I'm sure it'll continue.
 
PHX787
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:48 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
The first European flight was from CVG to LGW which, according to departedflights.com, began in 1987, FRA followed not long after.

Were these operated by DL?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
AF commenced service to CVG, initially with 767's, then up-gauged to 747's in the summer months before 9/11 IIRC.

747s? I don't recall this at all. Does anyone have any photos of the 747s at CVG for AF?
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AirGAbon
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:20 am

P&G has the EMEA office here in GVA. So many connect people connect from GVA through CDG to CVG.

The same with a large drilling company from Utah having its EMEA office in GVA: they connect through CDG to SLC. And they use CDG extensively from SLC to reach various African destinations.

In CVG, there is also a large GE traffic connecting in CDG to TLS.
 
SKC
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:03 pm

I know that during 2000, Ryan International operated a private charter for P&G. It was an A320 (N573DC) that was fitted with 66 seats in a single business configuration. The routing was CVG-KEF-BRU-KEF-CVG. I can't remember if it ran longer than a year, but know that P&G's biggest complaint, and a reason why they went to/back to DL was that Ryan couldn't offer FF miles like DL could.
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FWAERJ
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 5):

Which company subsidizes this route, or are we still talking about Procter & Gamble?

Several pool money for AA's LHR-RDU route. IDK which specifically but quite a few in and around the RTP.

GlaxoSmithKline, which is based near London, is one of them.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
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zkojq
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
Several pool money for AA's LHR-RDU route. IDK which specifically but quite a few in and around the RTP.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
GlaxoSmithKline, which is based near London, is one of them.

Thanks for the info.  
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VC10er
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):

Landor's largest office is in Cincinnati our contract is with United so I believe Lanorians from Cincy go through ORD, IAD or EWR.
It used to be Delta only. But I recall that P&G had 2 767's of their own at some point? Am I wrong? I recall people feeling very bummed traveling a lot and earning no miles. But that was over 10 years ago.

Also since we have offices in Geneva they go UA via IAD, or to our Simgapore office through ORD of SFO. I will have to ask. I know that since UA has Global First, the execs preferred UA over DL for a long time. We also have a BA contract and to London that is the carrier of choice. But once your 1k or GS, it's tough to let go!
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Viscount724
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Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 9):
P&G has the EMEA office here in GVA. So many connect people connect from GVA through CDG to CVG.

P&G is the 3rd largest employer in GVA with over 3,000 employees. It could soon become 2nd largest as it's been adding staff recently. In economic impact it's certainly bigger than the 2nd largest, Migros, the largest Swiss supermarket chain.

Following is in French but you can scroll down to the list of the 148 largest GVA employers. Rolex, the watchmaker, is #1.
http://www.bilan.ch/articles/economi...rands-employeurs-de-suisse-romande
 
PHX787
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 9):
In CVG, there is also a large GE traffic connecting in CDG to TLS.

Hm That is interesting, I had no idea about that one.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
It used to be Delta only. But I recall that P&G had 2 767's of their own at some point? Am I wrong? I recall people feeling very bummed traveling a lot and earning no miles. But that was over 10 years ago.

They own an extensive fleet of privet jets but that's mostly for the execs, I think
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rafflesking
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 3):
They have a huge site and office in Paris

Not really - it's a large office but not a regional HQ so there's minimal O&D on the CVG-CDG flight for Procter employees.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
Keep in mind that P&G is not the only frequent user of this flight, other local companies such as GE Aviation, Convergys, Cintas, dunnhumbyUSA, Landor, and Kroger also regularly send people to Europe, though definitely not at the volume that P&G does.

Precisely. While P&G employees certainly miss the nonstop LGW and FRA departures, we make do just fine with 1 stop connections through CDG as well as 1-stops through EWR and IAD on UA metal. The latter options have proved rather convenient as well since arrival times into our key sites around LON and in GVA and BRU can be reached by early morning.

Chiquita may have fled CVG for CLT because of lack of flight options, but we have enough workarounds to deal with the marginal inconvenience should DL ever want to do away with the CDG nonstop.
 
goldorak
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
747s? I don't recall this at all. Does anyone have any photos of the 747s at CVG for AF?

I can confirm it is true because I flew AF 747-200 CVG-CDG in may 2001. And it was completely packed   
 
PHX787
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 16):
Chiquita may have fled CVG for CLT because of lack of flight options, but we have enough workarounds to deal with the marginal inconvenience should DL ever want to do away with the CDG nonstop.

My dad brought this up to me a while back: If DL were to cut the direct flight to CDG, he thinks that a lot of his customers in Cincy would move to different cities. I know P&G has been in Cincy for quite some time and are content where they are, but do you think that this could be the case for other companies should DL cut this route?
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rafflesking
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
but do you think that this could be the case for other companies should DL cut this route?

It's an interesting question - but I don't think so.

If memory serves, Chiquita has ~400 administrative employees only in Cincy, which comprised their corporate headquarters. So in additional the the flight conveniences in CLT, I believe they were offered them sizable tax incentives to relocate. I probably overstated in my initial post the value of nonstop flight connections - I doubt a move without tax breaks would have ever been considered.

Naturally, companies like P&G and GE have way too sizable operations (both employees and capital) to justify similar actions but they are also more a chicken than the egg (read: they are larger contributors to justify retain diverse air service whereas Chiquita benefited).

Cincinnati is an interesting market because it has the largest # of Fortune 500 companies per capita than any other city. DL's cutbacks aren't new and the other key companies have made it work by either diversifying their flying contracts or dealing with less frequency. The only other company I can think of headquartered in Cincy similiar to Chiquita is Macys - they keep their primary marketing operations in New York (and I believe have a higher administrative employee count there), but I suspect the City of Cincinnati provides continued incentives to remain.
 
PHX787
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 17):
I can confirm it is true because I flew AF 747-200 CVG-CDG in may 2001. And it was completely packed

I hope someone has pictures of it   

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 19):
If memory serves, Chiquita has ~400 administrative employees only in Cincy, which comprised their corporate headquarters.

Ah well, I guess in retrospect, that makes sense then.

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 19):
but I suspect the City of Cincinnati provides continued incentives to remain.

You know what I think my dad said about Macy's is that they are using Cincy as headquarters because it's too expensive to have a headquarters in NYC because of the taxes and political climate of the big apple. Go figure
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flyguy89
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
Were these operated by DL?

Yes, prior to DL I don't believe CVG had any type of scheduled or charter TATL service.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
747s? I don't recall this at all. Does anyone have any photos of the 747s at CVG for AF?

I believe they only operated it in the summer just prior to 9/11.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
What ever happened to the Sabena route? I knew that was cut as a result of them shutting down, but doesn't P&G have offices there too?

It was a combination of the codeshare with DL ending and P&G moving their European office to Geneva.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
Landor's largest office is in Cincinnati our contract is with United so I believe Lanorians from Cincy go through ORD, IAD or EWR.

No doubt, but I have caught some Landor people on DL's non-stop to Paris headed to Landor's office there.

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 16):
Chiquita may have fled CVG for CLT because of lack of flight options, but we have enough workarounds to deal with the marginal inconvenience should DL ever want to do away with the CDG nonstop.

Yeah but Chiquita's move had been in the pipe for quite a while. Their main issue was that they needed non-stops to Central and South America which CVG has never offered even at it's height.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
My dad brought this up to me a while back: If DL were to cut the direct flight to CDG, he thinks that a lot of his customers in Cincy would move to different cities.

It's doubtful. Consider it from a business perspective, a company doesn't decide to headquarter in a city or set-up operations there solely because a specific non-stop flight exists, there are a multitude of other reasons which make the case for choosing a specific location.
 
ocracoke
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
The first European flight was from CVG to LGW which, according to departedflights.com, began in 1987, FRA followed not long after. The core European routes from CVG were always LGW, FRA, and ORY/CDG, all three of which were operating by 1990 and were flown year-round until FRA and LGW were discontinued in 2008/2009 I believe. Other European routes from CVG included FCO, AMS, MUC, ZRH, and BRU, but the addition and subtraction of these routes basically came and went with the various alliances and agreements DL had before they founded SkyTeam. ZRH was operated by DL, I believe, as part of their Atlantic Excellence Alliance with Swissair and was operated from 1993-2000

Correct. FRA was double daily. Also, for a few years, CDG and ZRH were not daily flights during the winter. CDG went 3 or 4 days a week, and ZRH went the other 3 or 4. Even though at the time, CVG-ZRH was DL's only flight to ZRH. Everything else was code-shared on SR (even ATL-ZRH).

Quoting SKC (Reply 10):
I know that during 2000, Ryan International operated a private charter for P&G. It was an A320 (N573DC) that was fitted with 66 seats in a single business configuration. The routing was CVG-KEF-BRU-KEF-CVG. I can't remember if it ran longer than a year, but know that P&G's biggest complaint, and a reason why they went to/back to DL was that Ryan couldn't offer FF miles like DL could.

Having spoken to many P&G employees that took this flight back in the day, that was one of the major complaints about Ryan International. The other two being:

1) Whenever the weather got bad in Iceland, and Ryan didn't think they could make their fuel stop at KEF, they would simply cancel the flight, leaving P&G employees already checked in at the airport scrambling to see what last second (and literally last second!) seat they could buy on DL to try to get to Europe. Lot's of last second CVG-LGW-ground-LHR-final destination tickets sold. I'm sure that got old fast....

2) That fuel stop. Nice having those wide business seats, but by the time dinner was done and you were about ready to try to get some sleep, it was time to put the seats back upright and prepare for landing in KEF. No one could really get any quality sleep on the flight.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
My dad brought this up to me a while back: If DL were to cut the direct flight to CDG, he thinks that a lot of his customers in Cincy would move to different cities.

There are many corporations with world wide business dealings going on that don't have their main operations at cities with international flights. Caterpillar, Peoria, Illinois. John Deere, Moline, Illinois. ConAgra, Omaha, Nebraska. Norfolk Southern, Norfolk, Virginia. Whirlpool, Benton Harbor, Michigan.
That's just off of the top of my head. All of those companies, plus many more, do a boatload of business overseas, yet don't have a international airline flying to their nearest airport. Why would P&G be any different should DL decide to pull CVG-CDG?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
It's doubtful. Consider it from a business perspective, a company doesn't decide to headquarter in a city or set-up operations there solely because a specific non-stop flight exists, there are a multitude of other reasons which make the case for choosing a specific location.

There have been some cases when they do. I remember the main reason Ashland Oil/Chemicals moving to the Cincinnati area was because they specifically said that they could reach all of their important business meetings with a non-stop flight out of CVG, and they couldn't do that out of HTS. I don't remember if they got any tax breaks to move, but probably not, since they moved from one town in Kentucky to another town in Kentucky. But they specifically said at the time that it was the extremely limited air service out of HTS that caused them to move.

But I agree; it depends on the company. A smaller company like Ashland or Chiquita could afford to move. A bigger company like P&G, it would have to take more than just a simple airline route. Even Boeing, when they moved, just moved their headquarters. Everything else stayed put.
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):

I believe they only operated it in the summer just prior to 9/11.

Yes AF operated B747-200 and also I think B747-400 (to be confirmed for the B744)
 
neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:57 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
Keep in mind that P&G is not the only frequent user of this flight, other local companies such as GE Aviation, Convergys, Cintas, dunnhumbyUSA, Landor, and Kroger also regularly send people to Europe, though definitely not at the volume that P&G does. Having said that, no, obviously during the boom times the bulk of these European flights were supported by connecting traffic,

It's common for people here to claim that a route is supported on the backs of a company that has offices on both sides of the route. Most of the time I find these claims simplistic--I mean how many people can dunnhumby--a company that employs 2,000 worldwide--be flying between Cincinnati and Europe? The thought that even P&G would have enough people flying back and forth a day to "support" a flight was a stretch. Not sure what business our friends at Kroger have in Europe.

That said, I checked the statistics I had access to and was surprised to see a breakdown (rounded percentages) of:

Originating CVG: 65%, comprised of:

To CDG: 20%

Beyond CDG: 45%

Connecting behind CVG: 35%

So I guess I was wrong.
 
SKC
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 22):
1) Whenever the weather got bad in Iceland, and Ryan didn't think they could make their fuel stop at KEF, they would simply cancel the flight, leaving P&G employees already checked in at the airport scrambling to see what last second (and literally last second!) seat they could buy on DL to try to get to Europe. Lot's of last second CVG-LGW-ground-LHR-final destination tickets sold. I'm sure that got old fast....

2) That fuel stop. Nice having those wide business seats, but by the time dinner was done and you were about ready to try to get some sleep, it was time to put the seats back upright and prepare for landing in KEF. No one could really get any quality sleep on the flight.

1. Being a non-ETOPS aircraft, Iceland was key. When KEF, RKV, AEY, and EGS had crappy weather our hands were tied. Completely understand the situation the passengers were put in.

2. I always wished it would have been planned with the eastbound stop in Goose or Gander and the westbound stop in Keflavik to avoid some of those issue. Except eastbound it was a late afternoon departure with a 6am (local) arrival in KEF, so that would have been a laaaaate dinner.
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lhcvg
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 7):
I would think when, if ever, the route becomes a loser for DL, they'll put the airport and companies with contracts for the flight on notice with some time to come up with an subsidy package which I'm sure the city would do. I doubt DL would ever discontinue though, regardless of what happens to the CVG. Even if the local area has to pony up subsidy payments at some point, I'm sure it'll continue.

Yup. There is enough traffic that even if DL eventually asks for a subsidy, it shouldn't be too large or hard to assemble. The route isn't in danger any time in the foreseeable future.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
My dad brought this up to me a while back: If DL were to cut the direct flight to CDG, he thinks that a lot of his customers in Cincy would move to different cities. I know P&G has been in Cincy for quite some time and are content where they are, but do you think that this could be the case for other companies should DL cut this route?

Maybe some of the small fry, but the big fish aren't going anywhere, and those that would actually move wouldn't be of too much concern. Part of what keeps the CDG flight going is the preference many have for getting across the pond n/s then worrying about connecting onward beyond just O&D to Paris. As such, that increases demand for the CDG flight and makes it even less likely it will be axed. As mentioned above, the costs and hassle of moving HQ's just for an int'l flight is prohibitive for the vast majority of companies. Plus, these companies would be stuck in a quandary: what all cities could they move to that have TATL service and would offer comparable operating costs and cost of living to Cincinnati? Very few.
 
PHX787
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 24):
Originating CVG: 65%, comprised of:

I know this isn't much but doesn't this look like high demand for TATL service?
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lhcvg
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
I know this isn't much but doesn't this look like high demand for TATL service?

Not really when you consider the local business market and the fact that a decent chunk is also going beyond CDG. It's respectable, but it's not anything really out of left field.
 
PITrules
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 24):
It's common for people here to claim that a route is supported on the backs of a company that has offices on both sides of the route. Most of the time I find these claims simplistic--I mean how many people can dunnhumby--a company that employs 2,000 worldwide--be flying between Cincinnati and Europe? The thought that even P&G would have enough people flying back and forth a day to "support" a flight was a stretch. Not sure what business our friends at Kroger have in Europe.

That said, I checked the statistics I had access to and was surprised to see a breakdown (rounded percentages) of:

Originating CVG: 65%, comprised of:

To CDG: 20%

Beyond CDG: 45%

Connecting behind CVG: 35%

So I guess I was wrong.

Actually based on your data I would think your original assumtion is correct. If I read your data correct, only 20% of the passengers on the flight start and end their journey in CVG and CDG. Even on the PIT-CDG flight, 35% of the passengers are going to CDG as a final destination. The difference between PIT and CVG percentages can be explained by the fact that there are no connecting passengers at PIT, while CVG-CDG is a hub to hub route.
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flyguy89
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 29):
Actually based on your data I would think your original assumtion is correct. If I read your data correct, only 20% of the passengers on the flight start and end their journey in CVG and CDG.

Right, but the connections beyond CDG, mainly to GVA, FRA, and TLS are also important to the flight...as in local companies use the flight extensively to get across the pond, particularly to those destinations listed above.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 29):
Even on the PIT-CDG flight, 35% of the passengers are going to CDG as a final destination.

Keep in mind that PIT-CDG is operated with a 757, and frequently with less-than-daily service whereas CVG-CDG is daily year-round 767. So while the percentage of CDG-bound pax out of PIT may be higher, the actually number CDG-bound pax out of CVG is higher due to the larger capacity DL has on the route.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 29):
while CVG-CDG is a hub to hub route.

The number of pax connecting onto the flight is fairly minimal now...I would call 65% O&D, 35% connecting "right-sized" for O&D.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):

Right, but the connections beyond CDG, mainly to GVA, FRA, and TLS are also important to the flight...as in local companies use the flight extensively to get across the pond, particularly to those destinations listed above

This is true, but important connections beyond CDG is not unique to the CVG-CDG route.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
Keep in mind that PIT-CDG is operated with a 757, and frequently with less-than-daily service whereas CVG-CDG is daily year-round 767. So while the percentage of CDG-bound pax out of PIT may be higher, the actually number CDG-bound pax out of CVG is higher due to the larger capacity DL has on the route.

When speaking in terms of percentages, raw numbers don't matter as much. But lets say we do look at raw numbers. Looking at tonight's departures, as of right now the CVG flight (a 763) has 144 seats blocked off, and the PIT flight (a 752) has 122 according to Delta.com. When you consider 35% of the passengers on the CVG flight originated elsewhere, I'm not sure one can determine that CVG has more local traffic to Paris. I realize looking at seating charts is not an exact science. Of course over the course of a year the CVG-CDG flight carries more local passengers because it is year round. But to make a good comparison you would then need to consider the number of people in the seasonal markets such as PHL and PIT that make connections to get to Paris.


Irregardless of all that, I'm curious how many people P&G sends to both CDG, and how many beyond on a daily basis. I'd bet its only a fraction of that 20%
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neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 29):
Actually based on your data I would think your original assumtion is correct. If I read your data correct, only 20% of the passengers on the flight start and end their journey in CVG and CDG.

Yes, you're reading the data correctly.

I was actually surprised the numbers showed that 2/3 of traffic was local CVG. I would've expected less. I think it's a relatively strong number, especially if a good share of that traffic is flying upfront, but, then again, I'm not a network planner or revenue management analyst.

Compare with MEM-AMS (again, high level numbers) for 2011:

Originating MEM: 30%, comprised of

To AMS: 5%

Beyond AMS: 25%

Behind MEM: 70%

As with CVG-CDG, I'm surprised the percentage of MEM-originating traffic is this high. Granted this is up from as low as 20% when the flight was operating daily. Enplaned passenger numbers on the MEM-AMS route for 2011 decreased by approximately 45% from the 2008 peak, which is to be expected with the seasonal eliminations and frequency reductions.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 29):
Even on the PIT-CDG flight, 35% of the passengers are going to CDG as a final destination.

I have 30%, but these data are all estimates anyway. Approximately 3 connecting passengers per day on average from behind PIT. Probably mostly cheap connecting fares from ATL, CVG, CDG, and LGA. Or people going out of their way to (1) fly the 757, or (2) shop at the Gap!

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
I'm curious how many people P&G sends to both CDG, and how many beyond on a daily basis. I'd bet its only a fraction of that 20%

This is exactly what I'd like to know, or, perhaps what would be more illuminating would be to get an idea of what people THINK the number is. On the surface, the way people talk--as if DL's presence in CVG depends entirely on P&G--it's almost as if P&G is sending hundreds of people to Europe daily and thousands of people around the US. As I stated in another thread, I certainly don't have access to the information, but I'd highly doubt it. If anything, CVGers should be happy to realize that there's probably a lot more than P&G traffic on the CVG-CDG flight.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
Originating MEM: 30%, comprised of

To AMS: 5%

Beyond AMS: 25%

Behind MEM: 70%
Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
As with CVG-CDG, I'm surprised the percentage of MEM-originating traffic is this high.

It's not high at all according to these numbers. If one was to plan a route solely off of numbers here, this route could easily be cut and added to, lets say, MSP, DTW, ATL,
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neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 33):
It's not high at all according to these numbers. If one was to plan a route solely off of numbers here, this route could easily be cut and added to, lets say, MSP, DTW, ATL,
CVG

Yes, pretty bleak statistics. The more connecting service gets pulled, I don't see how this route can stick around.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
This is true, but important connections beyond CDG is not unique to the CVG-CDG route.

It is when CVG-CDG provides one-stop connections to tertiary markets to Europe and beyond that would otherwise require a double connection (i.e. TLS, GVA and others).

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
When speaking in terms of percentages, raw numbers don't matter as much.

They do matter because unless the two flights you're comparing are the same, using percentages is deceptive. The available seat miles between the two flights aren't the same in addition to one of the flights being seasonal and the other year-round, so on a yearly basis DL transports more CDG-bound pax from CVG than it does from PIT.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
When you consider 35% of the passengers on the CVG flight originated elsewhere, I'm not sure one can determine that CVG has more local traffic to Paris.

You can certainly make that assumption as the PIT-CDG route is suspended for the winter while CVG-CDG continues.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
I realize looking at seating charts is not an exact science.

DOT data is your friend, the seating charts are essentially useless.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
But to make a good comparison you would then need to consider the number of people in the seasonal markets such as PHL and PIT that make connections to get to Paris.

And likewise you would need to do the same for CVG.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
This is exactly what I'd like to know, or, perhaps what would be more illuminating would be to get an idea of what people THINK the number is.

Oh I believe it's easily between 10-15 per day just in BusinessElite on the CDG flight. It's normal in the winter months for the coach cabin to be practically empty, but full in BusinessElite which is the only cabin that matters I guess. That's just my estimate however, both from experiences in taking the flight, talking with the gate agents working the flight as well as some of my connections at P&G.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
On the surface, the way people talk--as if DL's presence in CVG depends entirely on P&G--it's almost as if P&G is sending hundreds of people to Europe daily and thousands of people around the US.


Not at all, in one of my posts above I made the point that P&G employees are not the only frequent users of the flight, there are a lot of other area companies which regularly use CVG-CDG such as Kao Corporation, Lafarge, GE Aviation (I'd say they're the second most frequent travelers on the route as they regularly send people TLS as part of their partnership with SNECMA), dunnhumbyUSA, occasionally Landor as they have a major office in Paris, Kroger or Kroger suppliers, Possible Worldwide, and other smaller companies such as TKM and Kanefusa. Make no mistake though, P&G is one of the largest corporate travel accounts in the country, they definitely provide a significant volume of high-yielding passengers, but you're correct in the sense that others such as Macy's, Fifth Third Bank, Great American Insurance, Toyota...etc can be understated by some, they provide significant traffic as well.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):On the surface, the way people talk--as if DL's presence in CVG depends entirely on P&G--it's almost as if P&G is sending hundreds of people to Europe daily and thousands of people around the US.

Not at all, in one of my posts above I made the point that P&G employees are not the only frequent users of the flight, there are a lot of other area companies which regularly use CVG-CDG ... Make no mistake though, P&G is one of the largest corporate travel accounts in the country, they definitely provide a significant volume of high-yielding passengers, but you're correct in the sense that others such as Macy's, Fifth Third Bank, Great American Insurance, Toyota...etc can be understated by some, they provide significant traffic as well.

P&G obviously doesn't send thousands to Europe, but their business on various CVG flights like CDG is a very large factor in the viability of those routes. Something like LAX could survive sans P&G, but they do put enough people on certain flights to make them viable -- they are the singular 500lb gorilla in the local market even if there are some other large and important ones. So it isn't inaccurate to say that certain routes at CVG are in fact somewhat reliant on P&G. If P&G were to leave town, you'd see some changes at CVG for sure.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):

I was actually surprised the numbers showed that 2/3 of traffic was local CVG. I would've expected less. I think it's a relatively strong number, especially if a good share of that traffic is flying upfront, but, then again, I'm not a network planner or revenue management analyst.

If anything this shows that if DL completely cuts CVG as a hub, Cincinnati would still be a solid market for 757 service to CDG.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
It is when CVG-CDG provides one-stop connections to tertiary markets to Europe and beyond that would otherwise require a double connection (i.e. TLS, GVA and others).

But again, how is that unique to CVG? The DL flights to CDG from PHL/PIT/EWR/BOS etc also have those one-stop connection opportunities.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):

They do matter because unless the two flights you're comparing are the same, using percentages is deceptive. The available seat miles between the two flights aren't the same in addition to one of the flights being seasonal and the other year-round, so on a yearly basis DL transports more CDG-bound pax from CVG than it does from PIT.

The post I was replying to dealt with the percentages of what makes up the CVG - CDG passenger demand.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):

You can certainly make that assumption as the PIT-CDG route is suspended for the winter while CVG-CDG continues.

Its not at all a certainty as long as the CVG flight has 35% connections. How do we know that extra 35% of connecting demand is not enough extra revenue to keep the flight going year round? Unless we have some internal data, we don't know one way or the other.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
And likewise you would need to do the same for CVG.

Absolutely. However, since CVG has the year round service I doubt there are as many passengers that make a connection to get to Paris.

[Edited 2012-10-07 22:15:42]
FLYi
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
You can certainly make that assumption as the PIT-CDG route is suspended for the winter while CVG-CDG continues.

CVG has approximately 35 PPDEW to CDG, PIT 30 (on all airlines, not just those flying nonstop). Five more O&D passengers. P*ssing contest won, I suppose, but neither number is exactly high.

In total, however, PIT has approximately 300 PPDEW to all European destinations, while CVG has 250. You both win! Kiss and make up.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
If anything this shows that if DL completely cuts CVG as a hub, Cincinnati would still be a solid market for 757 service to CDG.

Or to a European hub other than CDG.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
But again, how is that unique to CVG? The DL flights to CDG from PHL/PIT/EWR/BOS etc also have those one-stop connection opportunities.

It's only unique to the extent that Cincinnati is a much smaller and cheaper market to reside and operate in. It is certainly a privilege that could disappear at any time should DL choose, but all the same it is a fairly significant business benefit if you are looking at cities to locate your HQ/operations. Smaller businesses can piggyback on the big boys that underwrite CDG service by taking advantage of it as needed, even though they could never support that service from their business needs alone.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 38):
Or to a European hub other than CDG.

As we discuss on here frequently, it's not CDG per se, but n/s access across the pond to a major connecting hub. Once they get to Europe they can get anywhere relatively easily. The only downside is if you are a loyal flyer with a non-SkyTeam carrier, but then again, convenience does have a price.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
If anything this shows that if DL completely cuts CVG as a hub, Cincinnati would still be a solid market for 757 service to CDG.

I agree, it's probably one of the saving graces for smaller outlier cities like CVG, PIT, and RDU with decent int'l demand being within 757 range of most major European markets, other cities further inland would require a wide-body, thus making them less attractive for airlines to experiment with.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
But again, how is that unique to CVG? The DL flights to CDG from PHL/PIT/EWR/BOS etc also have those one-stop connection opportunities.

Just having TATL service period isn't UNIQUE to CVG, obviously other cities have TATL flights, but I can only think of four cities around Cincinnati's size that have a non-stop to Europe (SLC, CLT, RDU, and PIT). In any case, I was mainly trying to point out the benefits the flight provides to passengers/companies in Cincinnati, if the flight wasn't there for example, GE would have to double-connect it's employees to get to TLS, so in this case having the CVG-CDG nonstop provides obvious conveniences.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
Its not at all a certainty as long as the CVG flight has 35% connections. How do we know that extra 35% of connecting demand is not enough extra revenue to keep the flight going year round? Unless we have some internal data, we don't know one way or the other.


I did say 'assumption', not certainty, but yes a lot of this is speculation if the hard figures for the flight are unavailable to us. From my end though, I can only infer that the flight seems to be doing pretty well if they're still running it daily, year-round and haven't down-gauged it to a 757 yet. That they haven't down-gauged it yet makes me think they probably keep the 767 on the route because they need it's higher capacity BusinessElite cabin.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
Absolutely. However, since CVG has the year round service I doubt there are as many passengers that make a connection to get to Paris.

It's difficult to say, it would take some playing around on the DOT website to find out the hard numbers, but I would suspect they're probably about the same with PIT probably a bit higher as it's a larger city...but then there's the whole aspect of how many of those pax are high-yielding, VFR/tourist etc.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):

It is when CVG-CDG provides one-stop connections to tertiary markets to Europe and beyond that would otherwise require a double connection (i.e. TLS, GVA and others).

To TLS yes but saying you need to double connect to GVA is far fetched. GVA has 4 daily transatlantic flights from EWR, IAD, JFK, YYZ/YUL.

All the major metropolitan areas in North America can easily be reached with a single connection from GVA.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 38):
CVG has approximately 35 PPDEW to CDG, PIT 30 (on all airlines, not just those flying nonstop). Five more O&D passengers. P*ssing contest won, I suppose, but neither number is exactly high.

What are the O&D figures on CVG-GVA ? That would probably show how much traffic P&G generates more accurately.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 37):
If anything this shows that if DL completely cuts CVG as a hub, Cincinnati would still be a solid market for 757 service to CDG.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
I agree, it's probably one of the saving graces for smaller outlier cities like CVG, PIT, and RDU with decent int'l demand being within 757 range of most major European markets, other cities further inland would require a wide-body, thus making them less attractive for airlines to experiment with.

I think we covered this previously, but the 757 doesn't quite have the range for the CVG-CDG route. They're better off with the 767 if CVG is de-hubbed, or letting AF come in with a 787.
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neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
It's difficult to say, it would take some playing around on the DOT website to find out the hard numbers

DoT data for international city-pairs is restricted and not publicly available. Sabre/MIDT is the only source I know of.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
What ever happened to the Sabena route? I knew that was cut as a result of them shutting down, but doesn't P&G have offices there too?

Offshore International HQ there.

Quoting SKC (Reply 10):
I know that during 2000, Ryan International operated a private charter for P&G. It was an A320 (N573DC) that was fitted with 66 seats in a single business configuration. The routing was CVG-KEF-BRU-KEF-CVG. I can't remember if it ran longer than a year, but know that P&G's biggest complaint, and a reason why they went to/back to DL was that Ryan couldn't offer FF miles like DL could.

55 seats (56 - 1 for pilot rest) and 6 FA's.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
It used to be Delta only. But I recall that P&G had 2 767's of their own at some point? Am I wrong? I recall people feeling very bummed traveling a lot and earning no miles. But that was over 10 years ago.

They own an extensive fleet of privet jets but that's mostly for the execs, I think

No 767's and now mostly G-Vs

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 22):
2) That fuel stop. Nice having those wide business seats, but by the time dinner was done and you were about ready to try to get some sleep, it was time to put the seats back upright and prepare for landing in KEF. No one could really get any quality sleep on the flight.

That, too isn't quite accurate. Our service standards required us to have the meal service completed within 90 minutes of departure from CVG.

Quoting SKC (Reply 25):
1. Being a non-ETOPS aircraft, Iceland was key. When KEF, RKV, AEY, and EGS had crappy weather our hands were tied. Completely understand the situation the passengers were put in.

2. I always wished it would have been planned with the eastbound stop in Goose or Gander and the westbound stop in Keflavik to avoid some of those issue. Except eastbound it was a late afternoon departure with a 6am (local) arrival in KEF, so that would have been a laaaaate dinner.

And RIA's appeals to upgrade to an ETOPS bird and/or an aux fuel tank fell of deaf-ears. Depending on the day of the week the flight would operate at around 1900 or 2100 (eastbound).
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 41):
What are the O&D figures on CVG-GVA ? That would probably show how much traffic P&G generates more accurately.

Fewer than 10 per day. CVG is the 11th busiest U.S. O&D market to GVA, slightly behind MSP (not sure I understand that one), but ahead of DEN, IAH, DTW, and DFW.
 
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 45):
O&D market to GVA, slightly behind MSP (not sure I understand that one),

Cargill have their European HQ's in GVA.
 
neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 46):
Cargill have their European HQ's in GVA.

Aha.

And the Swiss colors are red and white, just like Target's!

Only kidding . . .
 
flyguy89
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 41):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):

It is when CVG-CDG provides one-stop connections to tertiary markets to Europe and beyond that would otherwise require a double connection (i.e. TLS, GVA and others).

To TLS yes but saying you need to double connect to GVA is far fetched. GVA has 4 daily transatlantic flights from EWR, IAD, JFK, YYZ/YUL.

True, but for P&G, Air Canada and Swiss are out of the question, they mostly keep to connecting through CDG, DL/AF have made a point of retiming connections to GVA to specifically accommodate those passengers.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 41):
That would probably show how much traffic P&G generates more accurately.

It could give an idea, but they also send a lot of traffic to Germany, Italy and Spain in addition to France.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
I think we covered this previously, but the 757 doesn't quite have the range for the CVG-CDG route. They're better off with the 767 if CVG is de-hubbed, or letting AF come in with a 787.

We did cover it IIRC, but the 757 does definitely have the range for the flight, CVG-CDG is only 13 miles longer than CVG-AMS, ATL-BSB is also longer than CVG-CDG although that flight doesn't really have to deal with headwinds

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
It's difficult to say, it would take some playing around on the DOT website to find out the hard numbers

DoT data for international city-pairs is restricted and not publicly available. Sabre/MIDT is the only source I know of.

They do disclose however how many passengers a specific airline has carried on a particular route, but yeah DOT data for international traffic is pretty limited.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 45):
Quoting runway23 (Reply 41):
What are the O&D figures on CVG-GVA ? That would probably show how much traffic P&G generates more accurately.

Fewer than 10 per day. CVG is the 11th busiest U.S. O&D market to GVA, slightly behind MSP (not sure I understand that one), but ahead of DEN, IAH, DTW, and DFW.

Interesting to know. But as a possible answer to your question about how much traffic P&G sends to Europe, perhaps their charter of the Ryan International Airbus to BRU would be some indication: 55 seats at roughly 4 x weekly frequencies= about 220 seats per week.
 
neveragain
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RE: Procter And Gamble's CVG Contract

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 48):

I would agree that is indeed a fair indicator.