vaus77w
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Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:17 am

I've been wondering lately as to why they haven't placed an order yet for their domestic fleet. I know they are being cautious with their capital expenditure lately. It's fair they are cutting back fleet renewal for the loss-making international arm but shouldn't the profitability of the domestic arm warrant some investment in next-gen narrow-body aircraft, especially now that DJ has some on order? They were pretty quick to order NEOs for JQ.
 
smi0006
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:55 am

They have a number of new 738s headed their way still, many are still very very new. Not to mention alot of wideboady capacity coming in in the form of A330s and 787s eventually. I think over time we will see QF shift to a greater percentage of widebody flying domestically, thus with so many new 738s they are far far from being in a rush. Perhaps when they start posting substantial profits again (I don't think this will be too far away), then we will see some more domestic orders.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:36 am

Aren't QF skint? I would think they will be trying to line their pockets a little more and getttinginto the black before ordering anymore a/c.
 
qf002
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:02 pm

QF's oldest 738's are only just on a decade old, and they have taken a pretty steady stream of new planes since then. I'd expect them to be looking for either NEO's or MAX's for delivery from 2020-21, so there's no need to rush into any deals before they know what the market will look like down the track.

I agree they will probably get the MAX, but the NEO has to be in contention given that the QF Group will be operating hundreds of A320's by the end of the decade.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 2):
Aren't QF skint? I would think they will be trying to line their pockets a little more and getttinginto the black before ordering anymore a/c.

QF has close to $4bn in cash, and their short haul divisions are performing well. Long haul is losing a lot of money, but domestic, Jetstar and the Frequent Flyer business are very profitable.

Capital spending has only been cut back internationally -- they are taking planes domestically (ie another A332 this month, and the 737's that keep arriving).
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 3):

QF has close to $4bn in cash, and their short haul divisions are performing well. Long haul is losing a lot of money, but domestic, Jetstar and the Frequent Flyer business are very profitable

Not sure about the long haul performance comment, I was of the understanding that the return on investment was low for the amount of capital deployed, I.e., if they invested the cash they would earn more in interest.
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VC10er
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:05 pm

Perhaps this question is for another thread or already answered in one..but I must admit I haven't followed Qantas' woes, why are they doing so poorly? Everyone says their on board experience is great?
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StickShaker
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:24 pm

QF tend to keep their aircraft for much longer than DJ - slightly different business model than DJ who turn their aircraft over much sooner. They also placed a large order for 738's a couple of years ago (not sure how many are left outstanding) and may not see a need to add more for a while.


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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
Perhaps this question is for another thread or already answered in one..but I must admit I haven't followed Qantas' woes, why are they doing so poorly? Everyone says their on board experience is great?

how long is a piece of string?
 
m1m2
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:11 pm

Depends how long you cut it!
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 6):
QF tend to keep their aircraft for much longer than DJ - slightly different business model than DJ who turn their aircraft over much sooner. They also placed a large order for 738's a couple of years ago (not sure how many are left outstanding) and may not see a need to add more for a while.

Virgin is flying 737 with the sky interior, very nice. Qantas is still flying pre NG 737. Helps make the choice which airline to fly easier.
 
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zkokq
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 9):

Virgin is flying 737 with the sky interior, very nice. Qantas is still flying pre NG 737. Helps make the choice which airline to fly easier.

Not really. I prefer the experience I get with QF. Pay the extra money and its well worth it. Especially when its a flight like BNE - SYD
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:11 pm

Flew QF twice last month. In both instances the 737's had the sky interior.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 9):
Virgin is flying 737 with the sky interior, very nice

QF also have Sky Interior 737s. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm 90% sure that QF have more Skys than DJ does.

Beyond the Sky Interior, there are also "normal" 73Hs which have the new interior: obviously not the new overhead bins and LED lights, but they have the new seats in both cabins including AVOD.

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 9):
Qantas is still flying pre NG 737

The -400s are on their way out, and to be honest they are absolutely fine for 1 hour flights - there is no divider between J and Y which has always struck me as strange, but in Y they are basically exactly the same as the 738s (old interior). Yes they're a bit tattier, but then I've also seen some pretty crappy DJ interiors on the oldest frames
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bill142
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 9):
Virgin is flying 737 with the sky interior, very nice. Qantas is still flying pre NG 737. Helps make the choice which airline to fly easier.

Which are being replaced by 738s. Both have BSI 737s and Qantas are upgrading their early 738s to have a BSI like interior.

Qantas 1

Virgin 0

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 12):
The -400s are on their way out, and to be honest they are absolutely fine for 1 hour flights - there is no divider between J and Y which has always struck me as strange,

That's because J is convertible on the 734
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 9):
Virgin is flying 737 with the sky interior, very nice. Qantas is still flying pre NG 737. Helps make the choice which airline to fly easier.

Yes & the winner is... You're the reason I fly Qantas...

QF continue to accept delivery of new B738's with the Sky interior and more to come... The earlier deliveries will have the interiors upgraded...

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vaus77w
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 3):

QF's oldest 738's are only just on a decade old, and they have taken a pretty steady stream of new planes since then. I'd expect them to be looking for either NEO's or MAX's for delivery from 2020-21, so there's no need to rush into any deals before they know what the market will look like down the track.

Yeah that's a good point, I guess they are pretty well positioned in terms of fleet renewal and capacity growth with their current order of 738s and A332s.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 6):

QF tend to keep their aircraft for much longer than DJ - slightly different business model than DJ who turn their aircraft over much sooner. They also placed a large order for 738's a couple of years ago (not sure how many are left outstanding) and may not see a need to add more for a while.

Agree, although as fuel prices go up, it will come to a time where they will need more efficient planes.

Could it be possible that they are trying to skip a generation and replace 737s with the next generation of narrowbody aircraft coming post MAX/NEO?
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 13):
That's because J is convertible on the 734

I realise that, I've sat in "J" before when flying Y. But BA, LH etc have a movable curtain which can be positioned depending on how many rows are being sold as J
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 15):
Could it be possible that they are trying to skip a generation and replace 737s with the next generation of narrowbody aircraft coming post MAX/NEO?

If QF skip a generation wouldn't that place them in a position their currently in with the aged B763 & B744 fleet...? (I'm aware the B744 fleet is being phased out)
EK413

[Edited 2012-10-06 17:39:20]
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qf002
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):

Their costs are extremely high when compared to Asian and Middle Eastern competition. It's very tricky for QF to cut costs without seriously degrading their product quality (as many other legacy airlines have done) because of the restrictions of our local operating environment (high wages, geographical issolation, taxes etc). They would love to move a large chunk of their operating base offshore to reduce costs, but the QF Sales Act restricts them in that regard as well.

So, in order to compete internationally on a fare basis with overseas airlines, QF has significantly lower profit margins and yields across the board. The high level of competition internationally from Australia puts further pressure on margins/yields to the point that both simply cease to exist on some routes, many of which appear to be retained in order to sustain corporate traffic from Australia, which is probably where QF does make money internationally.

Domestically they are doing well, because the market is willing to pay a fare premium over low cost carriers/Virgin for the higher standard of service. It's also a fairer playing field because all the carriers flying domestically are subject to similarly high base operating costs, so QF has a better chance of competing.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 16):
I realise that, I've sat in "J" before when flying Y. But BA, LH etc have a movable curtain which can be positioned depending on how many rows are being sold as J

I can't think of any airline with a curtain on a 737, so perhaps it is something specifically to do with the aircraft rather than QF? Plenty of carriers do have them, as you say, but they all seem to fly A320's.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 18):
I can't think of any airline with a curtain on a 737, so perhaps it is something specifically to do with the aircraft rather than QF?

BA and KLM immediately spring to mind
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thegeek
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
Perhaps this question is for another thread or already answered in one..but I must admit I haven't followed Qantas' woes, why are they doing so poorly?

An excellent question. Times are tough, but it wasn't that long ago that they made nearly $1bn in a year. I think two more competitors on LAX routes have not been at all helpful to them. They've invested some money on unprofitable ventures in Asia. Seems that they have significant restructuring costs.

I hope someone can add something to those points?
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 20):
I hope someone can add something to those points?

With increased competition on the Kangaroo route SQ, TG, CZ, and then you have the middle eastern carriers EK, EY, QR... The introduction of low cost international carriers didn't help QFs healthy profit margins...

& QF didn't order the B77W 

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vaus77w
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 17):
If QF skip a generation wouldn't that place them in a position their currently in with the aged B763 & B744 fleet...? (I'm aware the B744 fleet is being phased out)

It would and the longer they take to order, the slots they can get will be later and later.

I think it's a bit unfortunate that JQ seems to get all the new highly efficient planes while QF is left with an ageing fleet, I can understand why they do it (better ROI) but it's still a shame IMO.
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 20):
I think two more competitors on LAX routes have not been at all helpful to them

All 4 carriers have said that Aus-US is profitable, the real drain has been the kangaroo route. To oversimplify things compares prices from SYD to LHR and LAX, and then consider that LAX is only 2/3 the distance of LHR.

Also they've failed to expand affectively into Asia which means that other carriers (especially SQ and CX, and increasingly CZ) are wiping the floor with them in that market
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
Also they've failed to expand affectively into Asia which means that other carriers (especially SQ and CX, and increasingly CZ) are wiping the floor with them in that market

& not to mention CX is a Oneworld partner not a competitor... Unfortunate to see the relationship between the 2 sour...

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 22):
I think it's a bit unfortunate that JQ seems to get all the new highly efficient planes while QF is left with an ageing fleet, I can understand why they do it (better ROI) but it's still a shame IMO.

Even though JQ continue to expand within OZ and notably in Asia the domestic arm of QF continue to thrive with next generation B737 joining the already strong fleet of 60+ aircraft... Fingers are crossed 2013 will bring with it the transition of the JQ A330 to mainline QF...

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gigneil
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:06 am

They ordered a billion planes and then had to cancel them. I don't see anything happening.

NS
 
lasairlinerenth
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:17 am

Just out of curiosity -- and this is not intended to derail the thread -- but what are Qantas's most profitable international routes? Roughly speaking.

I am scheduled to fly from LAX to Perth via Brisbane (744 to 767) and back (JetStar A320 to Brisbane; 744 back to LAX). late November / early December.

Looking forward to the trip; it will be my first to Australia and my first on Qantas and Jetstar.
 
qf002
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
BA and KLM immediately spring to mind

It must just be QF then -- I can't imagine why though.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 20):

Thinking further on this question again, QF isn't a particularly proactive company. They didn't do enough 10 years ago to prepare for the market today (and all the issues that have been touched on, predominantly being increased competition). That's been a big blow, because they have just be left behind.

That said, I think some of the recent decisions demonstrate some reversal of this with the current management -- dropping loss-making legacy routes (particularly to LHR), developing a strong core strategy that is less likely to be impacted by sudden change and partnering up with EK are all very strong moves that will set them up well for the future.

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 26):
Just out of curiosity -- and this is not intended to derail the thread -- but what are Qantas's most profitable international routes? Roughly speaking.

I'd put my money on it being the Pacific flights. The 13-15 hour flights to the US command similar fares to the much longer/more expensive trip to Europe, meaning that they are far higher yielding and hence more profitable. QF also commands quite a significant fare premium between Australia and the US.

JNB is also said to do well, and I'd be surprised if some of the larger Asian destinations (ie SIN, HKG and NRT) didn't also do relatively well.
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 18):

I can't think of any airline with a curtain on a 737, so perhaps it is something specifically to do with the aircraft rather than QF? Plenty of carriers do have them, as you say, but they all seem to fly A320's.

The 738s have curtains both the BSI and the older ones, they have one that comes down from the lockers and then one that is drawn across the aisles too. The 734s don't however.
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):

They ordered a billion planes and then had to cancel them. I don't see anything happening.

NS

Did I miss something...? From my understanding the firm order for 35 B787s was cancelled with 50+ options available from 2016 when QF is planned to return to profibility...

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 26):
Just out of curiosity -- and this is not intended to derail the thread -- but what are Qantas's most profitable international routes? Roughly speaking.

I'll put my money on the Pacific routes which have multiple services from SYD, MEL & BNE...

EK413
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qf002
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 29):
Did I miss something...? From my understanding the firm order for 35 B787s was cancelled with 50+ options available from 2016 when QF is planned to return to profibility...

QF had 115 aircraft on order at one stage in 2007/8 (65 firm with 50 options/rights), and they now are only committed to taking 15. They now have a total order of 50, including the 15 788's for JQ and 35 rights which can be exercised from 2016 if they chose to (but there's zero commitment to convert any of them -- QF hasn't even paid a deposit on them).

Makes me wonder if QF would either be doing exceptionally well or exceptionally badly right now had Boeing run on schedule. They could either have 30+ aircraft and be a totally reformed airline, or be totally financially ruined.
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:38 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 30):
Makes me wonder if QF would either be doing exceptionally well or exceptionally badly right now had Boeing run on schedule. They could either have 30+ aircraft and be a totally reformed airline, or be totally financially ruined.

I hope the B787 options materialize into firm orders otherwise I can't see how a bunch of A332s is going to solve the problem... QF will have approximately 9 B747s due for retirement by 2020 & the A330s will be due for replacement too...

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pugsley
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:37 am

Didn't QF order something like 115 A320/A320NEO one or two years for the JQ group, of which 7or8 were for JQ Japan, 30 ish for JQ Australia and a handful for JQ Asia/pacific. That leaves about 70 frames still to be allocated.
I think these may end up at QF.
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting pugsley (Reply 32):
Didn't QF order something like 115 A320/A320NEO one or two years for the JQ group, of which 7or8 were for JQ Japan, 30 ish for JQ Australia and a handful for JQ Asia/pacific. That leaves about 70 frames still to be allocated.
I think these may end up at QF.

Agreed - longer term it makes more sense to have a single narrow body fleet between all their carriers IMHO.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:39 am

Quoting pugsley (Reply 32):

I would expect more to be allocated to JQ Japan and JQ HKG, maybe 20 each? Keeping in mind these frames won't be delivered for a while so by that time the success of JQ Japan and HKG will be more obvious for aircraft allocation purposes. However, I agree, some may end up at QF. Would be great to see an A320 in QF colours!
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting pugsley (Reply 32):
Didn't QF order something like 115 A320/A320NEO one or two years for the JQ group, of which 7or8 were for JQ Japan, 30 ish for JQ Australia and a handful for JQ Asia/pacific. That leaves about 70 frames still to be allocated.
I think these may end up at QF.

I hope the A320s end up at QF mainline but wasn't the main reason JQ operate the A320s due to QF B737 pilots being on a higher pay rate...?

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vaus77w
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting pugsley (Reply 32):

Didn't QF order something like 115 A320/A320NEO one or two years for the JQ group, of which 7or8 were for JQ Japan, 30 ish for JQ Australia and a handful for JQ Asia/pacific. That leaves about 70 frames still to be allocated.
I think these may end up at QF.
Quoting anstar (Reply 33):
Agreed - longer term it makes more sense to have a single narrow body fleet between all their carriers IMHO.

Definitely makes sense. Does anyone know if they have any options/purchase rights on the NEO in addition to the 115-odd firm? I looked on the QF/JQ wiki page but it doesn't mention the new order.
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 36):

Fleet orders:

Jetstar has ordered 15 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, which are due to be delivered from mid-2013. These new-generation aircraft include features such as larger windows, improved cabin pressure to reduce jetlag and fuel consumption about 20 per cent lower than similar-sized aircraft.

In August 2011 the Qantas Group placed an order for 110 Airbus A320s. The Jetstar Group has access to these aircraft to facilitate its growth. This includes 78 A320 NEOs (New Engine Option), which reduce fuel consumption by 15 per cent and will be available for delivery from 2015.

In total, Jetstar has around 160 aircraft on back order.

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RyanairGuru
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 26):

Just out of curiosity -- and this is not intended to derail the thread -- but what are Qantas's most profitable international routes? Roughly speaking.

As others have said it is almost certainly LAX, but JNB is said to do very well as well.

Also one most people forget: HNL. Fares are normally the same as LAX but it's only 2/3 the difference so I imagine the yields are pretty decent given that it isn't hard to fill.

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 26):
Looking forward to the trip; it will be my first to Australia and my first on Qantas and Jetstar.

I really hope you have a great trip! Hopefully your LAX-BNE-LAX flights will be on the refurbished 747-400ERs which have the new A380 product and are really nice inside.

The 767 won't be anything remarkable - very similar to the 767s which UA are currently pulling off domestic, but there will be overhead IFE

Coming back I'm guessing that the JQ flight is a redeye? I should probably warn you that JQ have a high density configuration with 180Y. If you were planning to get a decent sleep on that flight it might be worth investing in an extra legroom seat. Other than that, though, I think JQ are very good and I prefer them to DJ.
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lasairlinerenth
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 38):
I really hope you have a great trip! Hopefully your LAX-BNE-LAX flights will be on the refurbished 747-400ERs which have the new A380 product and are really nice inside.

The 767 won't be anything remarkable - very similar to the 767s which UA are currently pulling off domestic, but there will be overhead IFE

Coming back I'm guessing that the JQ flight is a redeye? I should probably warn you that JQ have a high density configuration with 180Y. If you were planning to get a decent sleep on that flight it might be worth investing in an extra legroom seat. Other than that, though, I think JQ are very good and I prefer them to DJ.

Thanks for all the information and the good wishes! I'm going to try to do a trip report -- it will be my first for the site. Being this far out (6 weeks - ish), I'm not sure what 747 aircraft Qantas has scheduled for the LAX-BNE-LAX segments; but I hope you're right that they are the refurbished planes. Although the 767 won't be anything remarkable, it will only be the second 767 I've ever flown on -- so looking forward to it regardless. And, yes, the JQ flight from Perth to BNE is a redeye (I believe it leaves Perth around midnight local time, give or take). Thanks for the advice on investing in a seat with extra legroom so that I can sleep while jetting across Australia overnight; I'm definitely going to try to do that. I booked the ticket through AA so that I could get AAdvantage miles, so the JQ flight was the only one I could not yet get an assigned seat on. I've written to AA, but they claim there is nothing they can do about that; so when I get to BNE on the inbound, I'm going to see if I can purchase an assigned seat on the JQ segment then.
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 36):

- The purchase of between 28 and 32 current-generation A320 aircraft.
- The purchase of 78 new A320neo aircraft with 194 rights and options for further purchases.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...-releases/aug-2011/5158a/global/en
 
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 37):
Fleet orders:

Jetstar has ordered 15 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, which are due to be delivered from mid-2013. These new-generation aircraft include features such as larger windows, improved cabin pressure to reduce jetlag and fuel consumption about 20 per cent lower than similar-sized aircraft.

In August 2011 the Qantas Group placed an order for 110 Airbus A320s. The Jetstar Group has access to these aircraft to facilitate its growth. This includes 78 A320 NEOs (New Engine Option), which reduce fuel consumption by 15 per cent and will be available for delivery from 2015.

In total, Jetstar has around 160 aircraft on back order.

Thanks for the info.

Quoting flood (Reply 40):
with 194 rights and options for further purchases.

Wow that's quite a lot of options/rights. Maybe QF does have plans to rollover the 737 fleet to the A320 in the future.
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 41):
Maybe QF does have plans to rollover the 737 fleet to the A320 in the future.

This still raises my original question...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 35):
Quoting pugsley (Reply 32):
Didn't QF order something like 115 A320/A320NEO one or two years for the JQ group, of which 7or8 were for JQ Japan, 30 ish for JQ Australia and a handful for JQ Asia/pacific. That leaves about 70 frames still to be allocated.
I think these may end up at QF.

I hope the A320s end up at QF mainline but wasn't the main reason JQ operate the A320s due to QF B737 pilots being on a higher pay rate...?

EK413

I'm sure someone can answer it...

EK413

[Edited 2012-10-07 16:49:05]
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vaus77w
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 42):
I'm sure someone can answer it...

My understanding is that QF chose a different type to the 737 for JQ so it would be a separate labour contract for the pilots, with lower pay and conditions. If they did fly 737s, the union could have jumped up and down to get same pay as QF mainline 737 pilots, undermining the viability of a LCC. Happy to be corrected though.

I see no reason why QF couldn't switch to A320s.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 21):
With increased competition on the Kangaroo route SQ, TG, CZ, and then you have the middle eastern carriers EK, EY, QR... The introduction of low cost international carriers didn't help QFs healthy profit margins...

& QF didn't order the B77W
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
Also they've failed to expand affectively into Asia which means that other carriers (especially SQ and CX, and increasingly CZ) are wiping the floor with them in that market

Its been a combination of poor fleet planning and a complacent mentality in terms of moving from hub to hub accross to P2P. The lack of any 300 seat long haul aircraft has seriously impeded QF's ability to compete against other airlines who have successfully exploited that size category. The 343 has been in service since 1992 - almost 20 years ago yet QF will not have a LH 300 seaer unless they exercise their 789 options with deliveries more than 25 years after the 343 first took to the skies. Could go on but thats for another thread.

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 22):
I think it's a bit unfortunate that JQ seems to get all the new highly efficient planes while QF is left with an ageing fleet, I can understand why they do it (better ROI) but it's still a shame IMO.

The business model of LCC's generally demands newer fuel efficient aircraft as fuel can account for around 40% of operating costs. Legacy carriers such as QF can successfully operate older equipment.


Regards,
StickShaker
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 43):

The lower labour costs is exactly what I speculated... I'm sure QF will find a way around it considering the options available...

EK413
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vaus77w
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 44):

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
Also they've failed to expand affectively into Asia which means that other carriers (especially SQ and CX, and increasingly CZ) are wiping the floor with them in that market

Its been a combination of poor fleet planning and a complacent mentality in terms of moving from hub to hub accross to P2P. The lack of any 300 seat long haul aircraft has seriously impeded QF's ability to compete against other airlines who have successfully exploited that size category. The 343 has been in service since 1992 - almost 20 years ago yet QF will not have a LH 300 seaer unless they exercise their 789 options with deliveries more than 25 years after the 343 first took to the skies. Could go on but thats for another thread.

Agreed, the smallest plane they can currently fly to Europe, South America and South Africa is a 744. Looking back, the 343 probably would have been a good addition to the fleet to complement the 330s. With minimal maintenance and training differences to the 330, would have been a fairly smooth addition . Still they missed that boat too.
 
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EK413
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 46):
Agreed, the smallest plane they can currently fly to Europe, South America and South Africa is a 744. Looking back, the 343 probably would have been a good addition to the fleet to complement the 330s. With minimal maintenance and training differences to the 330, would have been a fairly smooth addition . Still they missed that boat too.

I've never understood the decision making within the QF board... Ok, the B744 fleet is probably paid for considering the billion dollar profits and cash reserves but QF wouldve been in better shape if they had an aircraft to fill the gap between the A330s & B744s... QF will face this problem even further considering they now operate A380s which I doubt can be filled all year round...

No intensions to open up a can of worms for a "QF should've bought the B77W" debate...

EK413

[Edited 2012-10-07 21:37:15]
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thegeek
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RE: Is Qantas Likely To Order The MAX?

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 43):
My understanding is that QF chose a different type to the 737 for JQ so it would be a separate labour contract for the pilots, with lower pay and conditions. If they did fly 737s, the union could have jumped up and down to get same pay as QF mainline 737 pilots, undermining the viability of a LCC. Happy to be corrected though.

My understanding is that JQ could have used the 737 without invoking contractual problems in theory, but to prevent a possible grounds for a dispute they felt that the A320 would be better.

Also, it's not just about the pay rate, there's also complex conditions in the legacy contracts which they would really like to remove.

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