Sandgroper
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Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:04 am

Given the horrendous hours of delays with planes queuing for slots on one effective runway it is pleasing to see that Perth Airport are finally looking at a solution with a 2nd parallel runway. Spending $750M to upgrade terminals the report states lack of runway capacity would be like cutting off the blood supply.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...-congestion-costs-businesses-dear/
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thegeek
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:08 am

Hmm, what are current ops like. AIUI at MEL one runway is used for take offs while the other is used for landings. Not sure if that would work at PER due to the shortness of the second runway.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:00 am

If the third runway finally gets built it will be a great benefit. In the 2009-2014 Master Plan it was listed as long term and for some time between 2022 and 2029! Obviously you can't rush these things.  

But will it meet any objection from Len Buckeridge?

I know that in May last year, when Westralia Airports Corporation wanted to extend 06/24 they came up against a snag. As part of the project they wanted to install some High Intensity Approach Lighting on part of some land leased to BGC for a brickworks. Len Buckeridge lodged a writ in the Federal Court to try and prevent it, arguing that he had earmarked the land for a pre-fabricated home factory - despite this never having been mentioned either in Planning or Environmental Impact Assessments. After mediation the case was scheduled to go before the court in September last year but I haven't been able to track down the outcome.

The new 2,700 metre parallel runway, 03R/21L, would see aircraft approaching or departing over the same land.
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PITrules
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting Sandgroper (Thread starter):


Given the horrendous hours of delays with planes queuing for slots on one effective runway

Why is it considered "only one" effective runway, when PER has two perfectly good ones?

[Edited 2012-10-07 04:49:09]
FLYi
 
StickShaker
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 1):
Hmm, what are current ops like. AIUI at MEL one runway is used for take offs while the other is used for landings. Not sure if that would work at PER due to the shortness of the second runway.

I think that can only be done in summer months due to prevailing winds - someone with inside knowledge might be able to fill us in on the full story.


Regards,
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CXB77L
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:08 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
Why is it considered "only one" effective runway, when PER has two perfectly good ones?

Because they cross over, meaning only one can be used at any one time.
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EK413
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:35 pm

Been taking a look at the master plan from 2009 and there are plans to build a terminal similar to that of MEL with International & Domestic flights under the one roof... I wonder why these plans have been dropped in favor of the recent proposal...

2009

http://www.perthairport.com.au/Files...Masterplan_November_2009_FINAL.pdf

NEW Proposal

http://www.perthairport.com.au/Libra..._Plan_Final_-_June_20101.sflb.ashx

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ORDJOE
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:10 pm

How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete
 
PITrules
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 5):

Because they cross over, meaning only one can be used at any one time.

They cross over, sure, but by no means should that mean only one can be used. With the usual wake turbulence and/or in trail spacing between departing aircraft on one runway, there should be enough time to lunch aircraft between that gap on the other runway.

Or with the minimum 3 miles of spacing between landing aircraft they can depart through the gap on the cross runway.

Consider BOS, ORD, LGA, and many others. LGA pumps 400,000 operations with an airfield essentially the same capacity as PER. Also, during a departure push in a southerly configuration PER should be able to launch off 24 and regional aircraft off 21 from the first intersection south of 6/24. There should be enough length for all the regional aircraft, essentially giving PER two non intersecting departure runways.

From the article:
"And a recent study by air traffic control experts found much of Perth's airport and airspace capacity was unused because of failure to adopt better practices."

This very much appears to be the case, and I otherwise fail to see how PER allows itself to get so backed up on 'only' 142,000 yearly movements.

[Edited 2012-10-07 12:24:48]
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thegeek
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:10 pm

Brisbane has one effective runway and significantly more movements and passengers.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 7):
How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete

Seems to be in the usual range. The new 14,000 x 200 ft. (4,300 x 61m) parallel runway now under construction at YYC has been quoted at $500 million CAD (about $510m USD or $502m AUD).
http://www.yyc.com/Default.aspx?cid=312&lang=1

Plus another almost $300 million for a road tunnel under it.
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...projects/Airport-Trail-Tunnel.aspx
 
bill142
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 9):
Brisbane has one effective runway and significantly more movements and passengers.

But BNEs runways don't intersect so they can get more use out of the second runway.
 
thegeek
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 11):
But BNEs runways don't intersect so they can get more use out of the second runway.

a) That may be but in practice runway 14/32 is only ever used by general aviation. Of which there isn't very much.
b) That only allows simultaneous use for take offs
c) It is currently/about to be shut for some time for some works and it will only have a small impact on ops.
 
eaglefarm4
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:08 pm

In regards to YBBN lately only one runway is used about 90% of the time when RWY 01 is in use and basically nil when when RWY 19 is in use.AT night only 01 or 19 is used except in the quiet periods when freighters land on 14 or 32 providing there is no traffic for the main runway at the time.This is due a incident nearly a year ago which has changed the way they do cross runway operations.

In regards to what Geek had said is incorrect.RWY 14 and 32 can land up to 737 size and Alliance F100'S constantly land 14 on a daily basis if RWY 01 is in operation.Q400'S,Dash 8's and ATR'S and Dorniers use RWY 14 or 32 daily if 01 is the active.At night 146 freighters land RWY14 or 32 for noise abatement when RWY 01 or 19 has no traffic.

Last Tuesday BNE handled 704 movements a new record with effectively 90-95% using 1 runway.
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thegeek
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:50 pm

I'm aware that 14/32 CAN be used by up to 737s. I've just never seen it happen. I wasn't aware of the Alliance F100 movements - are they mining charters?
 
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zkokq
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 14):
I'm aware that 14/32 CAN be used by up to 737s. I've just never seen it happen. I wasn't aware of the Alliance F100 movements - are they mining charters?



Most of them fly to ROK from what I have seen. Alliance has alot of flights out of BNE
 
aklrno
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:20 am

Think of how much a small patio would cost,then multiply the area by 5 -10,000, throw in the earthmoving to make it sufficiently flat but with just the right slopes for drainage, put in all the utilities that you might expect to cross it for the next 50 years, tunnels and culverts for drainage that can support an A-380 slapping the ground and then build it with an astonishing thickness. There is a lot of earthmoving and concrete involved. Concrete is made by roasting the ingredients in a kiln. The energy cost is immense.
 
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zeke
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):

When runways intersect, airlines and regulators consider them to be a single runway, as a disabled aircraft, damage, works, on the intersection takes both out.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):

BNE has been effectively down to single runway ops for a while now, I understand there was an incident with a conflict between a landing n 14 and takeoff on 01. I have seen published notams for traffic holding into BNE these days due to this.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
PITrules
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
When runways intersect, airlines and regulators consider them to be a single runway, as a disabled aircraft, damage, works, on the intersection takes both out.

That may technically be true. Semantics aside, for the purpose of discussing runway capacity I don't see why that matters, as PER has two runways that could be used as described in reply #8.
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Sydscott
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 7):
How in the hell does a runway cost 600 million tjat seems like an awful lot for a few km of concrete

There is also a whole lot of siteworks, taxiways and moving of various roadways etc that have to happen with it. So it's not just building a runway, they're starting from scratch on the other side of Horrie Miller Drive in order to do it.

To quote from the article;

"But airport chief executive Brad Geatches blames bad forecasting by all parties and inefficient airspace design for the problems.

"Governments, airlines and the resource sector all dramatically underestimated the growth and it should come as no surprise, therefore, that Perth Airport underestimated the demand," he said."

What a complete load of crap. The fact is that the people running Perth Airport are incompetent and have done virtually nothing over the decade or so this mining boom has been gearing up and going for to ensure the airport has sufficient capacity to handle it. They've had their heads in the sand and have been too busy taking their profits out of it without significantly investing in terminal and runway capacity.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:34 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 16):
tunnels and culverts for drainage that can support an A-380 slapping the ground and then build it with an astonishing thickness.

An airport runway has to be built to much higher engineering standards than a conventional road - in terms of landing aircraft it has to bear loads exceeding 500 tonnes travelling at around 150kts and descending at several meters per second. Thats a pretty demanding set of specifications. You also dont want pot-holes appearing after a few years wear and tear as occurs with many roads.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 19):
The fact is that the people running Perth Airport are incompetent and have done virtually nothing over the decade or so this mining boom has been gearing up and going for to ensure the airport has sufficient capacity to handle it.

When you have a privately owned monopoly, companies will be reactive rather than pro-active. PER has been growing at about 9% to 10% per year for the last 8 years - it was always going to catch up with the sluggish plans of the airport owners.


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zeke
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 18):

If you ignore the terrain to the east, city to the west, ga airport to the SW, and military airport to the north, declared distances, required gradients, taxiway limitations, parking limitations, refueling limits, no cat 2/3 capability, ATC limits, and the regular moderate low level wind shear off the hills.

Yes it is just as you make out, an isolated airport in the middle of nowhere, that gets the same sort of funding as BOS, ORD, or LGA.   
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
PITrules
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
If you ignore the terrain to the east, city to the west, ga airport to the SW, and military airport to the north, declared distances, required gradients, taxiway limitations, parking limitations, refueling limits, no cat 2/3 capability, ATC limits, and the regular moderate low level wind shear off the hills.

Yes it is just as you make out, an isolated airport in the middle of nowhere, that gets the same sort of funding as BOS, ORD, or LGA

How am I ignoring any of that? And are you suggesting certain runways at PER are not usable for takeoff?

As far as funding goes, other than completing some parallel taxiways PER already has the necessary airfield infrastructure in place to handle what they have. As has already been pointed out, the problems seem to be institutional.
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weebie
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:10 am

Perth is one of the most expensive cities in the world and with that comes expensive labour costs.
 
aklrno
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:13 am

One cost I didn't mention above is land acquisition. Is all the land already owned by the airport or do they have to buy some?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 24):
One cost I didn't mention above is land acquisition. Is all the land already owned by the airport or do they have to buy some?

It's all airport land. They don't have to buy any.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 20):
When you have a privately owned monopoly, companies will be reactive rather than pro-active. PER has been growing at about 9% to 10% per year for the last 8 years - it was always going to catch up with the sluggish plans of the airport owners.

If the owners of PER need a lesson on terminal building they merely need to go to ADL and look at their fantastic facility. Sure ADL started with a garbage facility of a terminal but they're airport has been pro-active enough to fix the situation and now look at expanding things. PER is stil in the "fix it" phase and has barely started what needs to be done in order to be a real gateway to Western Australia.
 
maxter
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:15 am

Have taken 8 trips out of PER over the last 10 weeks mostly to FIFO destinations all before 07:00 in the morning and of the 8, 7 were delayed for more than 20 minutes.
The queues for Qantas security clearance in the early morning is absolutely ridiculous. I really don't believe the extra runway will resolve anything inside the terminal, but will reduce delays related to take off or landing slots. However the last 4 delays I have had were related to availability of tugs and parking bays for aircraft and buses to transport passengers from remote stands.
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zeke
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 22):

Can I ask, how many times have you been to PER, sounds like zero.

Yes the short PER runway is not suitable at times (temp in PER can exceed 110 degF), required climb gradients are up to 2.27%. Over 70 days a year are over 85 degF. Crosswinds can make 03/21 unsuitable for smaller aircraft.

Then you have to somehow reful the aircraft, get the pax to them, and get the aircraft to runways, all of which have are running at over maximum capacity. A lot of the ramp space has no underground fuel, esp the jet charter ramp to the east of 03/21.

These problems are not just inside the airport, the whole city is struggling to meet demands for housing, transport, electricity, water, and waste.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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EK413
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 25):
If the owners of PER need a lesson on terminal building they merely need to go to ADL and look at their fantastic facility. Sure ADL started with a garbage facility of a terminal but they're airport has been pro-active enough to fix the situation and now look at expanding things. PER is stil in the "fix it" phase and has barely started what needs to be done in order to be a real gateway to Western Australia.

We got to admit ADL should be voted Australia's best... While SYD should be voted Australia's worst...

As for planning for the future PER has been sitting back repairing problems with temporary fixes when there should've been a long term plan...

EK413
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StickShaker
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:24 am

Quoting maxter (Reply 26):
However the last 4 delays I have had were related to availability of tugs and parking bays for aircraft and buses to transport passengers from remote stands.

Its a real luxury if your flight from the QF domestic terminal happens to use one of the gates with an aerobridge - otherwise its a long, slow and frustrating haul out to (or in from) the aircraft.


Regards,
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PITrules
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):

Can I ask, how many times have you been to PER, sounds like zero.

Yes the short PER runway is not suitable at times (temp in PER can exceed 110 degF), required climb gradients are up to 2.27%. Over 70 days a year are over 85 degF. Crosswinds can make 03/21 unsuitable for smaller aircraft.

Then you have to somehow reful the aircraft, get the pax to them, and get the aircraft to runways, all of which have are running at over maximum capacity. A lot of the ramp space has no underground fuel, esp the jet charter ramp to the east of 03/21.

These problems are not just inside the airport, the whole city is struggling to meet demands for housing, transport, electricity, water, and waste.

Then I'm sure you know the early mornings are the busiest for departures due to all the mining related flight activity. Now how often is it over 110 F in the early mornings? It may happen on occasion in the high summer, but its not a year round problem. But the planned runway extension will help. Winds are generally calmer in the morning as well as I'm sure you know.

I'm not debating the other issues you mention such as underground fuel, etc. as my point was directed at runway capacity. But with a $1 billion terminal redevelopment program, I imagine those other issues will be taken care of. I concede some of the missing taxiway segments would help things out a lot. But to suggest that only one runway can be used is simply false. No need to take my word for it:

"And a recent study by air traffic control experts found much of Perth's airport and airspace capacity was unused because of failure to adopt better practices"
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...-congestion-costs-businesses-dear/

I've been to Perth enough to consider it one of my favorite cities btw.

[Edited 2012-10-08 01:37:49]
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r2rho
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 8):
Because they cross over, meaning only one can be used at any one time.

They cross over, sure, but by no means should that mean only one can be used. With the usual wake turbulence and/or in trail spacing between departing aircraft on one runway, there should be enough time to lunch aircraft between that gap on the other runway.

LGA pumps 400,000 operations with an airfield essentially the same capacity as PER.

"And a recent study by air traffic control experts found much of Perth's airport and airspace capacity was unused because of failure to adopt better practices."

This very much appears to be the case, and I otherwise fail to see how PER allows itself to get so backed up on 'only' 142,000 yearly movements

Yes but at PER both runways intersect at about 1/3 of their length, with one of them being rather short, while at LGA only one runway is intersected at 1/3 of its length, and both rwys provide adequate length for all ops. The earlier the runways intersect, the better for shooting the gap, like LGA or HAM. Worst case are runways intersecting in the middle. In that sense, PER is more comparable to the old MAD layout.

...having said that, you are right that PER's runways could handle more than they do and would not yet maxed out if the airfield and procedures were suffciently adequate. But... the taxiway system is poorly developed, and surely ATC procedures could learn a thing or two from LGA and others. This does not remove the future need of a 2nd parallel, but it would greatly improve current ops.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 6):
Been taking a look at the master plan from 2009 and there are plans to build a terminal similar to that of MEL with International & Domestic flights under the one roof... I wonder why these plans have been dropped in favor of the recent proposal...

The 2nd link you provide seems to be the 1st phase of the new consolidated terminal, it is not in contradiction to the 2009 Master Plan, or at least that's how I understand it.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
BNE has been effectively down to single runway ops for a while now, I understand there was an incident with a conflict between a landing n 14 and takeoff on 01.

But why would you run convergent ops on a runway layout like BNE? Such a runway layout is best used with divergent ops, from both an efficiency and safety point of view. I would see no issue with running simultaneous divergent ops at BNE, but who ever had the idea of doing convergent? Or maybe I'm missing something?
 
ben175
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:29 am

What about an increase in late evening services which get the FIFO workers into the mines at 10pm, and allow them to start work early the next morning?
 
maxter
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:35 am

Then you would have to accommodate and feed them for an extra night and pay them for an extra day's (or part thereof) work.
maxter
 
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EK413
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 31):

I'll have another look at the links... From what I read and the diagrams the layout has changed...

EK413
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StickShaker
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 32):
What about an increase in late evening services which get the FIFO workers into the mines at 10pm, and allow them to start work early the next morning?

The current employment agreements for the various rosters stipulate that employees travel during company time - ie paid time so it would be a costly and very unpopular exercise. Accomodation costs at a mining camp would be in the order of $150 or more per night so there are extra costs there too as highlighted by maxter. It might also simply move the bottleneck from early morning to late at night which is also a very busy time at PER.


Regards,
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ben175
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:57 pm

What about increasing capacity then and cutting frequency? Obviously harder for the smaller mining companies, but QF could shuffle around some metal. I thought they were thinking about putting a 763 on KTA sometime this year.
 
maxter
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 36):
I thought they were thinking about putting a 763 on KTA sometime this year.

Will a 763 make it into KTA in one piece? How about a full flight getting off on a 45 deg C day? Sorry don't know enough about performance of a 763 on a 1930m runway under hot and heavy conditions.

The apron will be a bit of a problem. The 738 don't pushback, just sharp turns from angled parking locations. Given the size of the apron, might be a bit of a problem if more than one arrive.
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zeke
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 30):
But to suggest that only one runway can be used is simply false. No need to take my word for it:

There are definitely times where only one runway can be used, if it is not the strong winds, it could be one of the frequent cold fronts that hit the airport. You make it sound like ATC it totally inept, it is far from the case.

I would need to read the report the article is referring to to put that quote into context, from what I have seen from flying into the airport for the last few decades, it has reached it limits. Sure there are times of the day where little is happening, but you also need to remember the majority of inbound traffic converges with the majority of the outbound traffic in the same sectors. The Pearce airspace to the north of the airport funnels traffic into a narrow wedge. A lot of the FIFO traffic is heading in the same direction North/North-East. The domestic traffic is normally heading North-East and East.

PER airport was a little country town airport for a long time, it just had a small number of jet movement, and a lot of the FIFO work was done by PA31s, 402s, Conquests, Metros, the equipment became bigger with the Braz and Dash 8s, and next thing it gets bigger yet again you have a lot of RJs and F100. Companies that had say 20+ C441s, SA227s, and EMB120s have replaced them with aircraft which need a lot more space to park, need a lot more fuel, need more runway, need bigger hangers for maintenance. At the same time little has changed with the airport.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 31):
But why would you run convergent ops on a runway layout like BNE? Such a runway layout is best used with divergent ops, from both an efficiency and safety point of view. I would see no issue with running simultaneous divergent ops at BNE, but who ever had the idea of doing convergent? Or maybe I'm missing something?

Does not matter if they are using 01 or 19 in BNE landing on 14 conflicts. The smaller runways was used a lot by the likes of Qantaslink, RFDS, Toll etc. It is closest to the GA apron.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Sydscott
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:48 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
Yes the short PER runway is not suitable at times (temp in PER can exceed 110 degF), required climb gradients are up to 2.27%. Over 70 days a year are over 85 degF. Crosswinds can make 03/21 unsuitable for smaller aircraft.

I've had the good fortune to take off in a QF 744 on PER-SYD on the short runway. I'll admit wondering how the devil we were going to do it first time!

Quoting EK413 (Reply 28):
We got to admit ADL should be voted Australia's best... While SYD should be voted Australia's worst...

Being a regular user of SYD I find it easy to get around. I honestly think PER is easily the worst airport in Australia. From the lack of terminal space, separated International and Domestic airports, chronic traffic delays and lack of car parking at the International terminal etc etc etc. As you pointed out, there has just been a slackness in planning PER that should never have been allowed.

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
PER airport was a little country town airport for a long time, it just had a small number of jet movement, and a lot of the FIFO work was done by PA31s, 402s, Conquests, Metros, the equipment became bigger with the Braz and Dash 8s, and next thing it gets bigger yet again you have a lot of RJs and F100. Companies that had say 20+ C441s, SA227s, and EMB120s have replaced them with aircraft which need a lot more space to park, need a lot more fuel, need more runway, need bigger hangers for maintenance. At the same time little has changed with the airport.

I think the point is that the owners of PER have had the better part of a decade to do things to improve PER and literally done nothing. Terminal WA and the Virgin extension of the International terminal were overdue 5 years ago, let alone now. A multi-story carpark on the International side should also have been completed by now if they'd been on top of their planning. But the fact is the owners of PER have been happy to reap the profits of the mining boom to the detriment of their airport infrastructure and are now playing catch-up and will do for years to come merely to allow the airport to tread water. Heaven help them if the boom picks up even more.
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:01 am

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 36):
What about increasing capacity then and cutting frequency?

That may be an option on RPT flights (QF, VB & XR) but much of the FIFO stuff is charter flights which are driven by client demands - they prefer several Metro's per week rather than one Dash 8. There is still a lot of small mine sites out there with around 100 people or less on site and their rosters dictate the use of smaller aircraft.

A few years ago the most common roster was 2&1 (weeks) which was amenable to consolidating quite a few staff on a single weekly flight - now it is 9/5 or 8/6 which tends to fragment staff movements somewhat which favours smaller aircraft.
There is also the issue that most airstrips at these sites are not sealed so that restricts the use of larger jet aircraft. Having said that, Cobham have recently modified 2 of their 146 aircraft with gravel kits to service sites with unsealed strips.

Ultimately, much of FIFO operations are client driven in terms of aircraft size and timings of flights - it doesn't have the same flexibility as normal RPT operations.

We also need to keep in mind that the charter operators who service all these FIFO clients have made large investments in fleets of the appropriate sized aircraft to meet the somewhat unique demands of FIFO operations - this cannot be changed overnight and would only be changed if clients drive that change.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 36):
thinking about putting a 763 on KTA sometime this year

A good idea but would it fit.

Quoting maxter (Reply 37):
The apron will be a bit of a problem.

The miniscule KTA pax terminal could be a problem too. If ever there was a regional airport terminal in desperate need of an upgrade then KTA would have to be it. Whatever happened to the "royalties for regions" funds.

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
the equipment became bigger with the Braz and Dash 8s, and next thing it gets bigger yet again you have a lot of RJs and F100.

Much of the larger equipment is servicing large sites in the Pilbara (with sealed airstrips), the Metros and conquests are still there - they tend to service the smaller sites in the gold industry.

Good summary of PER there zeke.


Regards,
StickShaker
 
maxter
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 40):
Whatever happened to the "royalties for regions" funds.

That has all gone towards swimming pools and sporting halls in tinpot towns like Morawa, Mullewa and Newdegate...

You're right KTA is a shocker, but similar to Kalgoorlie when it's full, it's abysmal.
maxter
 
JQflightie
Posts: 522
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:35 pm

one crucial thing everyone is missing here, is that, PER Airport's owners refuse to pay for it, they will only do this is if the mining companies chip in! Once again another lacklustre effort made my this terrible airport!
Next Trip: PER-DPS-KUL-BKK-HKT-CNX-BKK-SIN-PER
 
thegeek
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 42):
one crucial thing everyone is missing here, is that, PER Airport's owners refuse to pay for it, they will only do this is if the mining companies chip in! Once again another lacklustre effort made my this terrible airport!

Ouch.

Can't the Federal govt terminate their lease for such carry ons?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 42):
one crucial thing everyone is missing here, is that, PER Airport's owners refuse to pay for it, they will only do this is if the mining companies chip in! Once again another lacklustre effort made my this terrible airport!
Quoting thegeek (Reply 43):
Ouch.

Can't the Federal govt terminate their lease for such carry ons?

While Perth Airports owners can make demands, they are ultimately responsible for developing the airport infrastructure through a planning process that must be approved by the Federal Minister for Transport. I would doubt that conditions in the Master Plan such as mining companies having to pay for the expansion would wash with the Federal Government. They would rightly tell them where to go.

I think you'll also see a huge shake-up of PER in the not too distant future as well. Some might be aware but the Future Fund is in the process of acquiring AIX, Australian Infrastructure Fund, which owns a 29.7% interest in PER. AIX was managed by Hastings Funds Management which, including the AIX stake, owned or controlled 81.6% of PER. With the Future Fund, and de facto the Federal Government, once again a shareholder in PER I'm sure you'll see a more professional and long term approach to investing in the airport come through.
 
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EK413
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:08 am

Based on the comments would appear there aren't any plans to introduce a 3rd runway beyond 2025!

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce told the National Press Club in Canberra on Tuesday that he backed calls for a third runway at Perth Airport, where congestion and longer taxiing times was costing the airline substantially.

Mr Buswell said there had been pressure on the facility for some time, but the focus of Perth Airport and the public had been new terminals and more parking.

"My view is there is a rapidly emerging issue around access to the runway,'' he told ABC radio on Wednesday.

"The feedback that I get from people is that the delays because of access to the runways are significant and increasing, and effectively we may have an airport with some lovely terminals that better be comfortable because they can't take off and land.''

Mr Buswell said Perth Airport's plan to the year 2025 didn't include a third runway.

"That is completely unacceptable,'' he said.

"We need to maintain pressure on the airport to bring forward their plans for investment in the third runway.

"The public will expect the airport to make announcements around the construction and access to third runway in the not too distant future.''

Perth Airport is in talks with resources companies and their charter airlines about making financial contributions to the third runway, which is estimated to cost $600 million.

It last week flagged the likelihood of charging extra for takeoff and landing at peak times to encourage flights during less busy periods.

Fly-in fly-out resources sector workers in their distinctive high-visibility vests surge through the airport regularly, often queuing for long periods to get taxis home.

Perth Airport was being sought for comment.

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment...rport/story-e6frfmq9-1226493007242

EK413

[Edited 2012-10-09 23:10:09]
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Sydscott
Posts: 3072
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:36 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 45):
Perth Airport is in talks with resources companies and their charter airlines about making financial contributions to the third runway, which is estimated to cost $600 million.

It last week flagged the likelihood of charging extra for takeoff and landing at peak times to encourage flights during less busy periods.


For the year ended 30/06/2012, Perth Airport delivered a return on equity of 17%. From the time the airport lease was acquired until June 30, 2012 PER delivered an average annual return of 19.8%. Revenue in 2008 was $183.5 million, in 2012 it was $347.4 million. EBITDA for 2008 was $115.6 million, in 2012 it was $226.3 million. That's straight from Hastings website.

An ROE of 17% is what our big 4 banks earn on their equity. Profit in the 5 years has shown compound annual growth of 18.3%. So the idea that they can't afford to do a 3rd runway without cost contributions is garbage. They can and they should.

Charging a premium for slots because of an airport owners lack of planning is probably not something Canberra would want to be seen approving. It also sets a bad precedent for a place like SYD where I'm sure they'd love to be able to squeeze some extra revenue out.
 
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zeke
Posts: 9854
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:36 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 44):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 45):

All the operators to the airport already make financial contributions, they are called landing fees, and parking fees. These fees are in my view are being used to generate a higher short term return for the owners, rather than investing into generating more revenue in the future.

I am disappointed with the amount of development that has happened at and around a number of airports in Australia, Perthnand Jandakot are at the top of the list. Perth is so isolated it needs good airports for longer term sustainability, it does not need the land to be sold off for residential or commercial use.
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BoeingVista
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 46):
Charging a premium for slots because of an airport owners lack of planning is probably not something Canberra would want to be seen approving. It also sets a bad precedent for a place like SYD where I'm sure they'd love to be able to squeeze some extra revenue out.

Seriously? This is the model that Mac Airports have used in Sydney for years! This is BAU for Australian airport operators.
BV
 
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EK413
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RE: Perth 3rd Runway To Cost $600M

Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:30 am

I don't understand why the operators continue to get away with it... It's time government steps in...

You have EK telling the operators to get their act together regarding A380 capability bays and QF regarding the 3rd runway...

EK413
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