factsonly
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AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:12 am

AF/KLM and ETIHAD/Air Berlin have announced an extensive codeshare partnership today:

http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pr...rberlin-announce-new-partnerships/

Extensive codesharing through AUH, AMS, CDG and BER.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:15 am

At this stage, it's not very extenstive at all.

There may be reasons (eg regulatory) why so few destinations are currently included in the codeshare agreement and there isn’t parity in the codeshares offered to passengers of Air France and KLM and these may just be tentative steps in advance of deeper co-operation but, compared to the hype of a ground-breaking deal and the Qantas/Emirates tie-up, this is a bit underwhelming.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 1):
this is a bit underwhelming.

I completely agree LHRFlyer. With AF losing it's partner in Australia flights, I expected this to be much more extensive with AUH becoming the new SIN for AF. However, it doesn't seem that any of Australia made it into the agreement (at least not yet).

I was even speculating that it would be so extensive that it would be a precurser to EY joining SkyTeam, but in reality it isn't anywhere close.

Kind Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
ozglobal
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 2):
I completely agree LHRFlyer. With AF losing it's partner in Australia flights, I expected this to be much more extensive with AUH becoming the new SIN for AF. However, it doesn't seem that any of Australia made it into the agreement (at least not yet).

KLM is quoted as offering the MEL and SYD connection. AF will probably announce the same closer to the end of the QF tie-up in Mar 2013.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:18 pm

I hope it is not the beginning of the end of AB in One World...
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
r2rho
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:27 pm

Interesting (and expected) development. Summing it up, AF-KL get access to several Asian destinations via AUH, while EY gets access to several secondary EU destinations vial CDG / AMS. With AB, AF-KL get access to Eastern European destinations via TXL, while AB gets access to secondary French destinations via CDG and to secondary UK destinations via AMS.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
I hope it is not the beginning of the end of AB in One World...

This too I wonder... so far it is only some codeshares, but who knows. While OW would be of no help to AB for the French destinations, they are effectively bypassing BA to the UK by using KL at AMS...
 
A388
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
I hope it is not the beginning of the end of AB in One World...

Interesting question, AB just joint OneWorld but EY owns a big part of AB to my knowledge so if EY will join SkyTeam what will happen to AB's tie-up with OneWorld?

A388
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:40 pm

Will this mean that Etihad will be starting flights to Amsterdam?

Cheers!   
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
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Focker
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 7):
Will this mean that Etihad will be starting flights to Amsterdam?

That would seem to make more sense than flying to BRU, IMHO.
 
A388
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 7):
Will this mean that Etihad will be starting flights to Amsterdam?

Cheers!

That would be nice but the article states that KL and AF passengers will be able to connect on EY's network from Abu Dhabi so for the time being EY themselves will not be flying to AMS. Maybe it's a future route and that goes for the other Middle Eastern carriers as well. AMS in my opinion is one of the few main gateways in Europe that is not yet served by all three major Middle Eastern carriers (EK, EY, QR). I think over time that will change. The same goes for MIA in my opinion.

A388
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:01 pm

I do unerstand that EY wanted the feed from BER and the additional feed from DUS as well, this gives some good options for India and far east / Australia traffic.

But what can AF and KL gain from AB? And vice versa? The best option where this "Eastern Eruope" traffic could gain wpould be VIE, not BER.

Scheduling to European points makes sense with early morning and late afternoon departures, making same day trips possible. That leaves out connecting European traffic. I said in the other thread that both AF and KL comb the German market since 6 decades. What could bring AB to them they don't already have?

This whole set-up makes little tonon-sense.

IIRC AB just invested some 40 Million € in joining OW. Congratulations, unless OW and Sky Team merge that was money down the drain.

Alliances make sense in long distance hub to hib traffic as well as hub to spoke and in European traffic it makes sense in bundling flights from secondary and tertiary airports to a hub and disztributing that out of there to secondary and tertiary airports. That's what KLM does successfully without AB, to some extend AF as well.

The primary airports between them have direbt flights.

Where's the beef for AB, more where's the gravy?
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SCQ83
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:04 pm

I wonder if this will also mean EY operating new AUS/NZ destinations (same for QR if they finally join OW this week). So far, QR offers two destinations, EY three and EK seven.

MEL: EK, EY, QR

BNE: EK, EY
SYD: EK, EY

PER: EK, QR

ADL: EK
AKL: EK
CHC: EK
 
factsonly
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:18 pm

The AF/KL - ETIHAD/AirBerlin agreement results in the following schedule adjustments:

KLM starts non-stop AMS-AUH-AMS operations on 28 October 2012. The impact KL's previous en-route stop in BAH is as yet unclear.

- NEW: dep. 10:50 AMS - arr. 20:20 AUH KL 0437 Non-Stop A332 Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Sat
- OLD: dep. 13:40 AMS - arr. 23:50 AUH KL 0455 stop BAH A332

- OLD: dep. 01:00 AUH - arr. 05:05 AMS KL 0455 Non-Stop (was triangle flight AMS-BAH-AUH-AMS)
- NEW dep. 01:45 AUH - arr. 06:05 AMS KL 0438 Non-Stop A332 Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sun

As are result of this agreement ETIHAD will have multiple codeshares in Europe with EI, OK, AF, KL, AB leading to hub operations at several European stations, such as AMS, BER, CDG, DUB, PRG:

Herewith an example of EY operations in Winter 2012/2013 at AMS:

- arr. 06.05 Abu Dhabi EY XXX Etihad Airways A332 operated by KLM
- dep. 07:00 Billund EY XXX Etihad Airways F70 operated by KLMCityhopper
- dep. 07:00 Oslo EY XXX Etihad Airways B737 operated by KLM
- arr. 07:10 Billund EY XXX Etihad Airways B737 operated by KLM
- arr. 07:50 Stavanger EY XXX Etihad Airways B737 operated by KLM
- dep. 07:55 Stavanger EY XXX Etihad Airways B737 operated by KLM
- dep. 08:10 Cardiff EY 1059 Etihad Airways F70 operated by KLMCityhopper
- dep. 08:10 Newcastle EY 0953 Etihad Airways F70 operated by KLMCityhopper
- arr. 08:20 Oslo EY XXX Etihad Airways B737 operated by KLM
- arr. 08:30 Cardiff EY XXX Etihad Airways F70 operated by KLMCityhopper
- arr. 08:30 Newcastle EY XXX Etihad Airways E90 operated by KLMCityhopper
- arr. 08:40 Prague EY 7860 Etihad Airways A320 operated by OK
- dep. 09:25 Prague EY 7859 Etihad Airways A320 operated by OK
- dep. 10.45 Abu Dhabi EY XXX Etihad Airways A332 operated by KLM
- arr. 12:15 Dublin EY 7910 Etihad Airways A320 operated by EI
- arr. 14:05 Dublin EY 7912 Etihad Airways A320 operated by EI
- dep. 15:00 Dublin EY 7913 Etihad Airways A320 operated by EI
- dep. 17:00 Dublin EY 7915 Etihad Airways A320 operated by EI

An interesting strategy for Europe, quite different from what EK is doing.
 
_AA_777_MAN
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:21 pm

Hmmmmm... Air Berlin announces ORD service just as AF finally pulls out for good. And EY all ready well established in ORD.
 
runway23
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting _AA_777_MAN (Reply 13):
Hmmmmm... Air Berlin announces ORD service just as AF finally pulls out for good. And EY all ready well established in ORD.

AB and EY both have AA as a partner in ORD.

AF's service on CDG-ORD is being taken over by DL as part of their joint venture so no service loss there.
 
miaintl
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:57 pm

If ab fully join skyteam than that will be the end of it's service to MIA. AB service to Miami is largely dependent on oneworld feed. I wonder if BA will allow AB to join skyteam without a fight.
 
runway23
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting miaintl (Reply 15):

If ab fully join skyteam than that will be the end of it's service to MIA. AB service to Miami is largely dependent on oneworld feed. I wonder if BA will allow AB to join skyteam without a fight.

Termination will in any case be in the alliance contract. Therefore it could be that AB will sign many codeshare agreements that go beyond their one world membership, as it may be very costly to cancel one world participation and AB does lack cash right now.
 
panamair
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting _AA_777_MAN (Reply 13):
just as AF finally pulls out for good

AF equipment is scheduled to be back on ORD-CDG next summer. This winter, like last, will see a DL 763ER operating the route for both DL and AF.
 
Jano
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
But what can AF and KL gain from AB? And vice versa? The best option where this "Eastern Eruope" traffic could gain wpould be VIE, not BER.

Plus there is Czech Airlines. There are cooperating with Etihad already http://www.csa.cz/en/portal/quicklinks/eti_coop/eti_coop_new.htm . And OK's Eastern Europe connections are not too bad either.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
sscaf001
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 17):

Unfortunately, reservation is closed for AF664 in S13 :

AF 664 CDG/2E
10:30 ORD/5
12:30 332/0

JC CC DC IC ZC WC SC AC YC BC MC UC KC HC LC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC GS
 
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SQ22
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
But what can AF and KL gain from AB? And vice versa? The best option where this "Eastern Eruope" traffic could gain wpould be VIE, not BER.

Its just an idea, but maybe EY future plans for AB are to use them as a feeder for flights outside of Europe only. Going east feeding EY and going west feeding AF/KL (when we are talking about long haul flights). Finally keeping a few high density seating layout equipped WB's for leisure routes.

This is based on the assumption that AF/KL might be more important for EY than AB.

Thoughts?
 
panamair
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting sscaf001 (Reply 19):
Unfortunately, reservation is closed for AF664 in S13 :

AF 664 CDG/2E
10:30 ORD/5
12:30 332/0

JC CC DC IC ZC WC SC AC YC BC MC UC KC HC LC QC TC EC NC RC VC XC GS

Where are you looking? I still see AF667/664 to be bookable in GDS, delta.com, Expedia, etc.,- I tried dates in June and July 2013, and they all show the flight operating with AF metal.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:37 pm

Like I said in another post, will we see alliance hopping soon? I can see tie-ups with AB/ET and AF/KL with Virgin Australia and DL.

So... QR goes to OW, ET goes to ST, and EK (the airline that all the other airlines love to hate) will hopefully go to Star? Or not since Star has been quoted to not want a Gulf carrier. What if, due to the tie-up, EK joins star and drags QF with them (or vice-verse)?
Not every day we find light winds. What do we do in these situations? Fly.
 
panamair
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 22):
AB/ET
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 22):
ET goes to ST

It's EY = Etihad. ET = Ethiopian which is already in Star.
 
something
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:01 pm

So who is going to fly a two-stop routing when there are many one stops available? How low yielding must this traffic be?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
r2rho
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
But what can AF and KL gain from AB? And vice versa? The best option where this "Eastern Eruope" traffic could gain wpould be VIE, not BER.

Agree. I see the sense in AB-EY and AF-KL-EY cooperation. But AB-AF-KL is strange.... AF-KL don't need AB to tap into the German market, they do that themselves rather well as you say. If anything it might be beneficial to AB, gaining access to secondary French cities. AB also gain access to secondary UK cities with KL via AMS, but BA may not be happy as the natural OW option would have been with them through LHR...

As for Eastern Europe VIE may be "natural" geographically but it's LH Group territory, and while AB has a presence there it is not a hub. The "natural" SkyTeam option for AF-KL would have been with OK via PRG...

And by the way, will we earn Skyteam or OW miles on those AF-KL-AB flights? Or both?
 
MarkusMUC
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:59 am

That are fascinating times. : )

Air Berlin joins oneworld.
Emirates allies with Qantas.
Etihad allies with Air France-KLM and Air Berlin.
Qatar Airways joins oneworld.
The memberships of Qantas in oneworld and of TAM in Star Alliance will be history probably quite soon.
Besides American Airlines is looking for a new owner.
And Lufthansa gets under heavy pressure with their long-haul flights, too, and acts like with no strategy and plan.

Indeed airliner world is changing. I'm curious about the next changes.
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting MarkusMUC (Reply 26):
nd Lufthansa gets under heavy pressure with their long-haul flights, too, and acts like with no strategy and plan.

I would not say that they don't have a plan. Working to make all sections and parts of the business profitable and self-sustainable is quite a good plan.

Not having a partner in the Gulf now may even be a blessing. Wonder what happens to their code-share with QE once they have joined OW. But OK, the topic here is AB and AB has been castrated amazingly quick by EY.



Quoting r2rho (Reply 25):
AB has a presence there it is not a hub. The "natural" SkyTeam option for AF-KL would have been with OK via PRG...

OK is struggling more than the "Niki" part of AB. The market at VIE may not be big enough to support OS and AB, but VIE is their third hub after BER and DUS and of course what is left at PMI.
powered by Eierlikör
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:15 am

Quoting MarkusMUC (Reply 26):
The memberships of Qantas in oneworld and of TAM in Star Alliance will be history probably quite soon.

From what has said at the press conference yesterday, everything points to Qantas staying in oneworld.
 
Rara
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
the topic here is AB and AB has been castrated amazingly quick by EY.

Exactly. LH really is the only winner in this mess (and EY is, probably). They should never have gone with EY as an investor. It's a shame Hainan didn't close the deal with AB. It would have been a much better match. Hainan's business interests are more compatible, their pockets are deep, growth in China is more sustainable than that of the Gulf, AB could have concentrated on OW and could have built BER to be a OW hub of sorts, they wouldn't have been forced into this weird AF/KL cooperation, and QX could still have provided any connections from the Gulf that ET has. Really a shame. I had the feeling Mehdorn would have favoured HU as well, but for some reason it didn't work out. Too much risk for HU probably.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
MarkusMUC
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 28):
From what has said at the press conference yesterday, everything points to Qantas staying in oneworld.

You'll never know in these times.
A half year ago no one thought that AB's oneworld membership becomes obsolete so quickly.

Yes, AB is the real looser of this mess. They will really loose money with these new alliances changes.

[Edited 2012-10-09 06:05:41]
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:21 pm

Quite weird all of this.
But I would certainly enjoy it if AB flights earned my Flying Blue miles and segments.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Burkhard
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:39 pm

How desperate must one be to become a whore of two alliances? Mehdorn up to now managed to run down every company he led, days of Air Berlin are numbered until it is taken over completely.
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:48 pm

He had no choice, I am sure that this was not his idea. I said before, someone who has a blocking minority in a company is quite powerful, especially when that shareholder has given a loan to the company as well.

I have to defend Mehdorn again, he did not run down Heideldruck, he made a full service company out of a very conservative manufacturer of high speed offset printing machines by adding peripheric companies. What you see exactly on this page, internet advertising, is the real problem HD is facing and what brought them into the red ink.

As to Deutsche Bahn, last time I checked, this is a highly efficient, money making enterprise, and that is Mehdorns credit.

Air Berlin is much more vulnerable to the passenger tax, emission trade and high fuel costs than LH is, all this is not Mehdorns fault.
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ASA
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 28):
From what has said at the press conference yesterday, everything points to Qantas staying in oneworld.

but how can the QF + EK tie-up work effectively, if QF is also an alliance member with QR and hopefully sharing routes, revenues, and resouces? Neither QR nor EK wouldn't like each other's presence and rapport with QF ... and most importantly,

how will Al Baker tolerate that his Australian growth potential is being hijacked by his arch nemesis EK ... with the help of his alliance partner?!! Almost like your brother is collaborating with your neighbor to steal your garden vegetables?  

[Edited 2012-10-09 07:50:33]
 
panamair
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 25):
will we earn Skyteam or OW miles on those AF-KL-AB flights? Or both?

Probably the usual situation with such bilateral cross-alliance deals. If you are a Flying Blue (AFKL) member, you will get award and status miles for AF/KL-coded-AB-operated flights, but not if you are an FF member in other Skyteam airlines' programs. Similarly, AB Topbonus members should be able to get the same miles on these AF/KL-operated flights, but members of AA or BA or QF's programs will not be able to, even though they are flying on an AB-coded ticket (but operated by AF/KL).

Quoting Rara (Reply 29):
AB could have concentrated on OW and could have built BER to be a OW hub of sorts, they wouldn't have been forced into this weird AF/KL cooperation

One gets the sense that AB and Mehdorn feel 'spurned' by their OW partners. In this CAPA article,

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/airberlin-makes-no-apologies-for-etihad-alliance-after-joining-oneworld-70349

Mehdorn does not seem to enthused about how few OW partners serve Berlin (thus depriving AB of additional traffic):

".......In the driver’s seat is airberlin CEO Hartmut Mehdorn, who after the carrier’s joining event in Berlin this week gave a frank assessment of the situation. “Of course,” Mr Mehdorn said of British Airways preferring to receive airberlin’s feed instead of Etihad. But conversely, few oneworld carriers serve airberlin’s namesake hub. “And we would prefer a flight to Berlin. It’s a give and it’s a take.”
 
AF185
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:40 am

It now seems AF's CEO, Alexandre de Juniac, is openly talking about the possibility for AB to join Skyteam

Article in French:
http://www.boursorama.com/actualites...m-d74ad0c0be568bf31a9bb4276b0022bc


Google translation:


The boss of Air France suggested the German airline, Air Berlin, with whom a codeshare agreement has been concluded to be closer to the SkyTeam airline alliance, which it is the leader, in an interview the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung on Monday.

"If we were to get even closer, Air Berlin had to choose between staying in his current alliance (OneWorld, led by British Airways) or change to come within SkyTeam, Air France-KLM," said Alexander Juniac German daily.

Air Berlin, the second largest German airline, had entered within OneWorld last spring, but Etihad, the airline Emirates, which is also its largest shareholder, urged him to get close to Air France.

"With Air Berlin, we can better combat the competition from low-cost airlines in Europe," assured Mr. Juniac.

SkyTeam already includes 18 airlines and carries about 537 million passengers per year, with nearly 15,000 daily flights to 993 destinations in 186 countries

OneWolrd together for its 12 members plus four partners, serving 810 destinations in 149 countries, 324 million passengers.
 
r2rho
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RE: AF/KLM And ETIHAD/Air Berlin Parnership Announced

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 36):
"If we were to get even closer, Air Berlin had to choose between staying in his current alliance (OneWorld, led by British Airways) or change to come within SkyTeam, Air France-KLM," said Alexander Juniac German daily.

It's the first time someone publicly points out the contradiction between AB's alliance membership and its AF-KL-EY partnership. Let's see how this ends up. For the time being AB can keep going to bed with both alliances via codeshares, but if indeed deeper integration happens one day, they will have to choose. And EY will surely have a say in it.

Personally, I think AB has more to offer to OW, which lacked a central European member, than to Skyteam, where AF-KL already serve Germany extensively. But with the exception of JL, OW has a track record of not caring much about retaining its members.

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