727LOVER
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Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:05 pm

When WN began grumbling about the 717 not having a future with them, the immediate a.net speculation was that they would end up @ DL. Why was this??? Did WN ever negotiate with anyone else or was DL the only one to even kick the tires?

If this FL/WN hookup had happened 9-10 years ago, would NW have been interested?

This will make DL the longest operater of T-tails.......if you ask me, a nice break from the 2 engine wing monopoly. The title currently is held by AA by approximately 1 1/2 years.....although SAS might have them beat.....weren't Caravelle still there when DC-9 got on property? Anyway, how long before DL has no T-tails? I probably won't live that long!!!!   
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compensateme
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:28 pm

WN is a publicly traded, for-profit company. Wouldn't you be inclined to believe that WN evaluated all its options for the 717 (which would include operating the aircraft, attempting to negotiate a return to Boeing-their leaseholder and transferring the leases to another operator)?

Analysts speculated, even before the merger was official, that WN would seek to divest the 717 fleet. Sources leaked that DL had contacted WN and expressed interested, but it was over a year before a deal became official. Wouldn't you think that during this time period, WN attempted to yield other offers?

The reality is that WN inherited nearly 100 of the type, with most frames over 10-years-old. Few airlines across the world operate fleets that large; attempting to sublease nearly 100 aircraft would be challenging. Undoubtedly, DL likely got preferred terms as it was willing to take on the entire fleet.

And while I know some people on a.net have convinced themselves otherwise, the 717 is not an in-demand aircraft.
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mayor
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 1):
And while I know some people on a.net have convinced themselves otherwise, the 717 is not an in-demand aircraft.

No, it isn't, but it does seem that things seemed to fall into place rather well, with DL wanting to reduce the RJ flying and this fleet becoming available. Couldn't ask for much better timing than that.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
phxa340
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 1):
And while I know some people on a.net have convinced themselves otherwise, the 717 is not an in-demand aircraft

Any aircraft can be in demand under preferable leasing rates and route deployment. What should be said is the 717 isn't in demand as much as other newer built aircraft.
 
compensateme
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
No, it isn't, but it does seem that things seemed to fall into place rather well, with DL wanting to reduce the RJ flying and this fleet becoming available. Couldn't ask for much better timing than that.

No doubt the availability & cheap acquisition cost of the 717 influenced DL's decisions here.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):
Any aircraft can be in demand under preferable leasing rates and route deployment. What should be said is the 717 isn't in demand as much as other newer built aircraft.

Most anything in life can be in demand at the right price. Alas, WN wasn't looking to give these aircraft away & experienced only minimal cost in subleasing these planes to DL. Any significant costs and WN probably would've kept the aircraft around - so yes, I do think there is limited market for the 717.
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Viscount724
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 1):
The reality is that WN inherited nearly 100 of the type, with most frames over 10-years-old. Few airlines across the world operate fleets that large; attempting to sublease nearly 100 aircraft would be challenging. Undoubtedly, DL likely got preferred terms as it was willing to take on the entire fleet.

And while I know some people on a.net have convinced themselves otherwise, the 717 is not an in-demand aircraft.

Article in September 17 Aviation Week & Space Technology discusses the 717 transaction (page 2):
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/AW_09_17_2012_p49-493018.xml&p=1

Excerpt:

“The 717, with 117 seats, has about the same trip costs as a 737-300 with 143 seats,” he says. “But, since the 717 was designed for shorter trips, we would have been limited as to where we could fly them nonstop, which would have mandated maintenance support in more locations. Although we planned to use those airplanes, we concluded that if a deal that made sense came up to dispose of them, we would look at it.”

Under that deal, Delta will get the first batch of 16 717s starting in August 2013, while the next group of 36 will be delivered in 2014. Delta will receive the remaining 36 in 2015. Deliveries are projected at the rate of three per month. Southwest also agreed to pay conversion costs as part of the transition to Delta, in conformance with Delta's design specifications. For the total 717 fleet, that will run about $100 million, or about $50 million more than what it would have cost Southwest, had it decided to convert them to its own specs.

A Delta official confirms that the 717s were selected to replace the carrier's 50-seat regional jets.
 
PHX787
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
A Delta official confirms that the 717s were selected to replace the carrier's 50-seat regional jets.

Bingo, right there. Until recently, only DL was seeking to replace their 50-RJ fleet.
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usairways787
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):

Bingo, right there. Until recently, only DL was seeking to replace their 50-RJ fleet.

Other airlines will wish they followed suit as fast.

US787
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mayor
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
A Delta official confirms that the 717s were selected to replace the carrier's 50-seat regional jets.

Bingo, right there. Until recently, only DL was seeking to replace their 50-RJ fleet.

Well, yes, indirectly. Since DL is keeping 125 of the RJs, the 717s will replace some of the CR7s and CR9s and those, in turn will replace some of the RJs that are going away. I do suspect, though, that some of the 717s might replace a flight or two at some of the previously RJ or CR7/9 stations.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
When WN began grumbling about the 717 not having a future with them, the immediate a.net speculation was that they would end up @ DL. Why was this???

Two reasons:

1) Talks between DL and WN originated over 18 months ago. But a transfer at that time was not feasible for either operator. (DL had the MD-90 strategy to execute, plus determine which NB order to place (739ER). WN, the obvious FL integration). And thus, the idea was put on the shelf for future discussion.

2) DL inquired into the 25 717s which were at one time available from Boeing Leasing Company. But without the certainty of the WN fleet, the economies of scale was insufficient to warrant acquiring an oddball fleet. Unfortunate, because the ex-YX frames only saw 3-4 years of active service, at most. Incredibly young in their cycle lives. No worry though, they'll end up at DL when it's all said and done. I guarantee it.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Was DL Only Candidate For The 717?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
This will make DL the longest operater of T-tails......

To add, once the first 40+ 739ERs arrive, the MD-88 will make up the largest fleet type at DL. Unlikely to last, but still another feather in the cap for the workhorse.

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Anyway, how long before DL has no T-tails?

I would say the 2025 time-frame. But if DL ever build the 717 fleet to 150 strong (this strategy has been done before...), it's possible it would continue on, Ala D95. DL would need to cannibalize a good portion of the fleet for parts, for that to happen.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 1):
Wouldn't you be inclined to believe that WN evaluated all its options for the 717 (which would include operating the aircraft,

WN evaluated keeping and operating the 717, like Boeing did investing in it and keeping the line open.  
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