Senchingo
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LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:06 pm

Lufthansa stated they don't specifically exclude the option to work in close cooperation with one of the Gulf carriers on the long term - but before any possible talks about that, they want to "clean up their own house" first says CEO Christoph Franz. At the moment, LH is cutting costs by running their "Score" project and trying to reach an operative result of 1.5 billion by 2015.

Source aero.de:
http://www.aero.de/news-16061/Luftha...nerschaften-am-Golf-nicht-aus.html

To me this is pretty strange news. Sure they have to keep up with AB+EY, but until now LH always blaimed especially EK to destroy the market and they put lots of pressure on German government to avoid giving additional slots/landing rights to them.

So which choices do they have?
- EY is out (coop with AB and now also AF/KL which is Skyteam)
- They most likely won't/can't work with EK (also works closely with QF which happens to be One World)
- QR -> Confirmed One World now
- GF - > No Alliance yet
 
something
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:35 pm

The key sentence is clearly ''Nur wenn sich das Unternehmen "tiefgreifend" verändere, könne es die Entwicklung der Branche mitgestalten'' from the airliners.de article. It translates into something along the lines of ''LH needs to reinvent itself fundamentally if it wants to continue to shape the industry [in their own interest] in the future.''

In other words, the aviation market is constantly changing and LH needs to respond to such changes. They have to recognize the market environment and adapt accordingly which in this particular case means nothing else but ''if you can't beat them, join them''.

[Edited 2012-10-12 07:38:10]
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PanHAM
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:49 pm

An interesting sentence was that , if a cooperation takes place it must be on "eye level".

I am sure that they did not mean that Mr. Mehdorn is rather short and Mr Franz about 1,90m  
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neveragain
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting senchingo (Thread starter):
To me this is pretty strange news. Sure they have to keep up with AB+EY, but until now LH always blaimed especially EK to destroy the market and they put lots of pressure on German government to avoid giving additional slots/landing rights to them.

LH will never consider cooperation with Gulf carriers. Until things change, and it will.

Yet more proof that statements made by airline executives in public must be taken with a grain of salt and are more about keeping up appearances and puffery than facts. It's why I have reason to discount Mr. Walsh's statements that everything was hunky dory with the end of the QF-BA joint venture.
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 3):

I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement.

Let's have a look at the not-too-distant past. On this very platform everybody was screaming at how Gulf Carriers were never going to join an alliance because they are far too well off and don't need that kind of stuff. It was said that they draw all their passengers from connecting traffic and that it would be nonsense for them to have affiliates that feed their hubs.
Now look at the world. EY buys into all sorts of airlines, EK gets cosy with QF, QR dare joins an alliance.

The point is: The world is rotating around itself, which in regular intervals shows the dawn of a new day, and it rotates around the sun, which moves us through the ages. What reality is today will not be in 5 years or by the time "Score" has been completed.
I find it very plausible that CEO Franz is thinking longterm and that he already states the conditions of negotiations once they start. I personally can not out of my forehead remember that an airline CEO made a step towards the Gulf Carrier s without the absolute need for it. We've seen a lot of surrender to them and just as many uneasy bilaterals, but nothing as "auf Augenhöhe" ("on par") than this verbal statement.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
neveragain
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 4):
I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement.

I'm not sure what there is to disagree with. It's what happened. Two months ago people on this forum were saying such alliances would never happen, and as their support they quoted the strong statements made by Franz, Spinetta, et al that they would never get in bed with the Middle Eastern airlines. As you said, the environment now is different, and they're changing their tune.

All I was trying to say was that such broad, charged statements, by their very nature, have little value in predicting long-term industry developments. So when QF says that the EK relationship has no bearing on its standing and participation in oneworld, I tend to be skeptical.
 
Senchingo
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 3):
Yet more proof that statements made by airline executives in public must be taken with a grain of salt and are more about keeping up appearances and puffery than facts

True that not everything published by newspapers must be taken as fact, but i don't see any reason why LH would make such statement if there was nothing true about it.
In my opinion, it would damage their reputation if they bashed EK before and now would state they are looking at options to cooperate with a Gulf carrier but then would never do it.

Furthermore, with LH being in the news almost daily because of Score, the restructuring of Germanwings, contaminated cabin air and their precautions, the plans about cabin crew switch to external companies, their intentions about BER and so on, they surely don't need to publish above mentioned statements just for the sake of viral marketing.
LH is no Ryanair - they don't make official press releases just to be talked about and especially not when it comes to a thing they until now were not even wasting a thought about.

Still, i wonder which of the Gulf carriers we are talking about here? Any thoughts?

Quoting senchingo (Thread starter):
- EY is out (coop with AB and now also AF/KL which is Skyteam)
- They most likely won't/can't work with EK (also works closely with QF which happens to be One World)
- QR -> Confirmed One World now
- GF - > No Alliance yet

Oman Air also comes to my mind now, even though i'm not sure as to count them a "Gulf carrier". They would have flights to FRA&MUC and are not member of any alliance.
 
airevents
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:53 pm

I don´t really know what Oman Air or Gulf Air could contribute to make them worthwile co-operation partners for LH. If we are talking eye to eye here, it would have to be one of the three major gulf carriers. Exciting times!
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neveragain
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting Senchingo (Reply 6):
True that not everything published by newspapers must be taken as fact, but i don't see any reason why LH would make such statement if there was nothing true about it.

I'm sure it was true at the time. Or thought to be true. I'm not accusing the LH leadership of engaging in deliberate deception, I'm just saying the events of the past month are proof there are no sacred cows in the industry. "Never say never," that's all.

And if EK thinks it makes sense for them to engage in a joint venture with LH, I'm sure they'll have a short memory as well!
 
Hirnie
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting airevents (Reply 7):
If we are talking eye to eye here, it would have to be one of the three major gulf carriers.

If we are talking eye to eye here, it would have to be inly EK. But I don´t think there will be an anouncement or even negotiations in the near term. At this time I can't even imagine LH and EK coorperating. Franz said only that LH would not reject cooperation. He didn't say that he was looking for coorperation. A lot of water will flow down the Rhine river until we will hear something from this front.

Just my 2... you know.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:59 pm

If this has even a grain of truth in it, I can say, with some confidence, that I have seen it all.

As others have pointed out, EY and QR are out of the market (for the time being). EK has paired up with QF and is eyeing AA, which puts it 'definitely maybe' in the OW camp, though for all we know, it might result in the emergence of an altogether new alliance.

Can't see LH working with either EK or EY - I doubt they'll ever be willing to consider the ME carriers as equals, certainly not after the self-righteous tirades they've been launching endlessly at the UAE carriers.

But then again, as Neveragain points out, one must never say never. If it does happen, it will definitely be amusing to watch AC's reaction here in Canada.  
 
Quokkas
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:01 am

If LH believes that in order to hold talks the participants need to be on "eye level" then it may be a while yet as LH is still considerably larger than any of the Gulf Carriers, despite the growth of EK and QR.

I do not know if we can rule out an eventual partnership with EK. In 2000 EK considered joining *A before finally rejecting it on the grounds of ""Your ability to react in the marketplace is hindered because you need a consensus from your alliance partners."

But not joining one of the three alliances has not prevented EK entering into partnerships, including codeshares, with other airlines: Japan Airlines (OW) and if approved Qantas (OW); Korean (ST); Thai Airways (*A) and South African (*A); as well as a number of agreements with carriers not part of an alliance. It has had others in the past, including Virgin Blue and Royal Air Maroc (both of whom jumped ship and tied up with Etihad).

Anything is possible but how probable is it?
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stylo777
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:18 am

What about TK, not really a gulf carrier, but one in the region...
 
Senchingo
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RE: LH Doesn't Reject Coop Wz Gulf Carriers

Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 12):
What about TK, not really a gulf carrier, but one in the region...

Well, TK already is a *A member. Don't know how much more coop they would want to do there?

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