by738
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Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles will be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:31 pm

Any guesses on the engine colour ? One would hope with uniform paint techniques there is no reason why it couldnt be blue. Publicity pics and models show blue... Mmm.
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baldwin471
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:59 pm

I hope it's blue. Bet it will be white though.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:45 pm

Except for Sun-Air's Dorniers (which have dark lue engines) all BA's high wing aircraft have had white engines:


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Of course the 787 is not a high wiged aircraft. But it clearly would not be a total departure if it were to be painted with white engines.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting by738 (Thread starter):
One would hope with uniform paint techniques there is no reason why it couldnt be blue.

Blue cannot be applied thinly enough to maintain laminar flow. I'm sure someone is working on it but the only available colors are grey and white.
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting by738 (Thread starter):
Any guesses on the engine colour ?

Well so far you have:

White:

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White:

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Photo © Alejandro Torres



White:

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Photo © Yang Wei



White:

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Photo © Yoshiharu Mohri



Grey:

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Photo © Royal S King



White:

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Photo © Kevin Scott - Jetwash Images



White:

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Photo © Steven Austen



....and oh look! WHITE!:

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Photo © Sanat Gaba

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Blue cannot be applied thinly enough to maintain laminar flow. I'm sure someone is working on it but the only available colors are grey and white.

There's your choices, and considering that grey isn't in BA's color scheme I would think we're going to see.....WHITE LOL
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:09 pm

All I can add is that the LANDOR folks who work on airline branding/liveries have told me color (even on ac before the 787 was even just a dream ha!) that color is a tech issue and that their are many things to take into consideration. Very dark colors (due to sun) I know can be one. Which is why I have wondered how black works for New Zealand.
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:10 pm

Any other color than white or grey will create a performance impact, I heard. The Qatar nacelles were also white in the beginning (check the Farnborough pictures).

[Edited 2012-10-13 09:11:51]
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:27 pm

I'm surprised that the UA nacelles are white and not grey, though. Given the underbelly of the UA C/S is grey, I figured grey would be the natural choice.
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:42 pm

I'm hoping (in vein no doubt) that BA manage to convince Boeing to develop a BA blue paint with the same properties and he Boeing Grey and Boeing White that are currently the only performance neutral paints that do not screw up the fine balance of laminar flow over the engine nacelles.

My bet is on white however.

However, BA might just take the .005% or whatever hit and go with blue anyway!
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Is this a serious question? Given that I have white, white, and white to choose from, I think I'll pick… white?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):

Did you read the original post. We now how two colours white and grey, so two choices so far. And (again in the orginal post- which incidentally the title was changed by the mods) BA are marketing it with blue engines.
Im not sure what is so obscure in that line of questioning....
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:00 pm

Arent the BA 380s blue?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 11):
And BA are marketing it with blue engines.

There are also pictures with white engines.

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):

Doesnt look too bad, but I guess we have to wait until it comes out next year.

Though I think its fair to say they will be painted White unless stated otherwise (though not likely)
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:52 pm

Let's see what the model makers have predicted:

Premier Planes 1:250
http://www.wings900.com/modeldatabase/detailview-17559.html BLUE

Gemini Jets 1:400
http://www.wings900.com/modeldatabase/detailview-19793.html BLUE

Granted, this is a hopelessly minuscule statistical sample as Phoenix, Herpa, InFlight and Aeroclassics are not (yet) releasing a BA Dreamliner. And these companies have to make a guess when it comes to a type that has not yet flown, which often is incorrect. However, one creative person made up a hypothetical retro Negus scheme:

http://i55.tinypic.com/2gw6cdj.png WHITE

Maybe someone will try one of the old BOAC schemes?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:23 pm

Quote:
Granted, this is a hopelessly minuscule statistical sample as Phoenix, Herpa, InFlight and Aeroclassics are not (yet) releasing a BA Dreamliner. And these companies have to make a guess when it comes to a type that has not yet flown, which often is incorrect.

Yeah, that reminds me of the early MAS A380 models: http://www.flightmemory.com/shop/art...cle/Modell_Malaysia_A388_200P.html

 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:57 pm

Boeing's New Airplane site is showing white engines.

http://www.newairplane.com/787/whos_flying/#/BAB

This does bring up an interesting point about AA's 787. Will their engines be white or gray? I think white, but because gray was developed, it could be used as it is a closer match to silver.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 6):
that color is a tech issue

Darker colors are heavier as well. This goes just beyond blue...I think all other colors that are dark would have an issue, such as a green or red. However, I may be off. What do you think?

Thank you,

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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
Is this a serious question? Given that I have white, white, and white to choose from, I think I'll pick… white?

A few years ago, when Boeing was trying to simplify paint options, they said they were then using 46 different shades of white paint to meet customers' varying livery requirements.

You can notice that white and white can mean two very different things if you visit AMS and see DL aircraft with their rather murky shade of white parked next to KLM aircraft with their very bright white, almost like snow. I much prefer the KL white.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
You can notice that white and white can mean two very different things if you visit AMS and see DL aircraft with their rather murky shade of white parked next to KLM aircraft with their very bright white, almost like snow. I much prefer the KL white.

Reminds me of a scene from American Psycho. But, yes, there are many different shades of white..
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:34 pm

Is this becoming the aviation equivalent of 50 shades of grey, or should I say white.

Surely technology can allow more than just white and grey engines?
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 3):
all BA's high wing aircraft have had white engines

...and perhaps this low wing?

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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 20):
Surely technology can allow more than just white and grey engines?

Technology can, but that is not the issue. The issue is on the 787 engines. Because of their design and need to remain as fuel efficient as possible - all relating back to their specific purpose - a thin layer of paint is what can go over the engines and that layer must be even throughout the engine. The problem with using colors other that white and gray, at the present time, is that they are too hear for the purpose these engines are serving.

Feel free to add if I am incorrect or missing something.

Thank you,

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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting shankly (Reply 21):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 3):
all BA's high wing aircraft have had white engines

...and perhaps this low wing?

The OpenSkies engine nacelles are clearly gray or metallic silver, not white.


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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Blue cannot be applied thinly enough to maintain laminar flow. I'm sure someone is working on it but the only available colors are grey and white.

Poor, poor Sun Country.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:58 pm

It'll be white, i mean should be white, white looks better  
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:10 am

Boeing obviously has learned from Henry Ford: you can have all colours, as long as they are ... white
Doesnt look bad with BAs livery so Im fine with it.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 11):
Im not sure what is so obscure in that line of questioning....

I'm not sure what's so obscure about what color it's going to be?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:43 am

So, what is the issue with having blue engines?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 28):
So, what is the issue with having blue engines?

Higher fuel burn due to the loss of laminar flow over the nacelles.
787 Laminar Flow Nacelles (by Faro Dec 11 2009 in Tech Ops)

[Edited 2012-10-13 19:12:49]
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:19 am

Many operators like AI, ANA, QR etc have a symbol of their airlines on their nacelles in their own colors. Will that not affect fuel burn?
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:01 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 9):

I'm hoping (in vein no doubt) that BA manage to convince Boeing to develop a BA blue paint with the same properties

It's not Boeing they have to convince...Boeing doesn't make paint. It's the paint guys (I think mostly Akzo-Nobel) that you need to pay for a very specific specification.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 20):
Surely technology can allow more than just white and grey engines?

Yes, it can. But the cost is way way way too high right now. Nobody is going to make custom nacelle tooling to match the allowable paint thickness to the colour you want.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 30):

Many operators like AI, ANA, QR etc have a symbol of their airlines on their nacelles in their own colors. Will that not affect fuel burn?

The nacelle is only laminar over about the first third of the length. You can do what you want behind that, from an aerodynamic standpoint.

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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:23 am

The Boeing renders all show the 787 with the older style tail as well (ie the waves are set much lower down, with a larger white gap at the top).

Is this what the livery will actually look like, or has Boeing just used an older style that they have in their systems for these renders? Personally I think it actually looks better than the new style (which the models in reply 15 seem to use)...
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Yes, it can. But the cost is way way way too high right now. Nobody is going to make custom nacelle tooling to match the allowable paint thickness to the colour you want.

Can you explain why the tooling would depend on color?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Can you explain why the tooling would depend on color?

I think he's saying if you increase the tolerance on the tooling you can still get the laminar flow with the increased variability that comes from the other paints.
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 19):
Is this becoming the aviation equivalent of 50 shades of grey, or should I say white.

Might be stretching it a bit! I don't think fifty shades of white will have the same affect on my wife as fifty shades of grey!

........ but hey, everyone's different!
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Why can't they be painted?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Yes, it can. But the cost is way way way too high right now. Nobody is going to make custom nacelle tooling to match the allowable paint thickness to the colour you want.

Can you explain why the tooling would depend on color?

The inlet is bare metal (aluminum). The nacelle immediately behind it (specifically, the fan cowl) is painted. Those two surfaces must be very very flush to not trip the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent. That means the thickness of cowl has to be controlled very carefully so that, when the additional thickness of the paint is added, the surface ends up in exactly the right place. Different colours have different thicknesses...if you want a different colour with a different paint thickness, you need a different thickness cowl to match.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
I think he's saying if you increase the tolerance on the tooling you can still get the laminar flow with the increased variability that comes from the other paints.

Sort of...I don't think just improved tolerance on the tooling would do it, you'd actually need different tooling to match different thicknesses.

Quoting spencer (Reply 35):
Why can't they be painted?

They can, and are. The current "issue" is that they can only be painted a few colours.

Tom.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting spencer (Reply 35):
Why can't they be painted?

(speaking for car painting im sure its similar on aircraft just on a larger scale tho correct me if i am wrong)


I think its cause white paint is thin u can throw it on with a light primer under and be done. While blues and other colors that are not light u have to do 2-4 coats to get the tone to the color ordered.

The 787 wears the white necelles good IMHO and i am not a fan of the euro white
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
Different colours have different thicknesses...if you want a different colour with a different paint thickness, you need a different thickness cowl to match.

Is there possibly a way to develop a paint that goes on the same thickness as white or grey?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:22 pm

Paint is measured in microns. It's not anywhere nearly as thick as people make out. Weight and thickness with varying colours wouldn't pose a problem afaik. As to the problem with the laminar/turbulent flow, I'm not sure that would cause half as many problems as it would've had it been a wing.
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
A few years ago, when Boeing was trying to simplify paint options, they said they were then using 46 different shades of white paint to meet customers' varying livery requirements.

BA described their shade of white in a Press Release dated 10 June 1997:

"The main colour scheme for aircraft has been brightened and lightened, from pearl grey, dark red and near-black midnight blue [the main colours of the previous Landor livery] to pearl white and a warmer blue and red more akin to the colours of the British Union Flag."

However the difference between "Pearl White" and the other 46 shades of white is minimal. While it :may show up when a temporary nose cone is fitted to an aircraft painted "pearl" white:


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I do not think anyone will notice if a fuselage is painted pearl white while the non-adjacent engines are painted Boeing 787 white.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:11 pm

A pearl is an effect coat, which serves no purpose whatsoever on the BA fleet. What a waste of money and effort!
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
Different colours have different thicknesses...if you want a different colour with a different paint thickness, you need a different thickness cowl to match.

Is there possibly a way to develop a paint that goes on the same thickness as white or grey?

I'm sure the paint people would love to be paid to figure that out...I'm just not sure there are any people willing to pay. At the current state of paint technology it's "Use these colours, get x% fuel reduction. Don't use them, pay for it in fuel." If someone really wanted a different colour enough to fork over the money to the paint people to make it work, I don't see why it wouldn't be technically possible but I can't see the business case working out.

Tom.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
The inlet is bare metal (aluminum). The nacelle immediately behind it (specifically, the fan cowl) is painted. Those two surfaces must be very very flush to not trip the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent. That means the thickness of cowl has to be controlled very carefully so that, when the additional thickness of the paint is added, the surface ends up in exactly the right place. Different colours have different thicknesses...if you want a different colour with a different paint thickness, you need a different thickness cowl to match.

Is that level of accuracy in the paint thickness able to be achieved by hand, in the paint hangar, when the rest of the aircraft is painted or are the cowls pre-painted elsewhere before installation?
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 36):
The inlet is bare metal (aluminum). The nacelle immediately behind it (specifically, the fan cowl) is painted.

The bare aluminium on a nose cowl only goes back about 30 cm. The rest of the nose cowl (about a metre) is painted. I believe (I don't know) that the laminar flow is kept to the nose cowl. It would be possible to join the bare aluminium heated nose to the skin of the cowl, and paint it in the shop so that the joint is smooth. It is not far off it nowadays. But then I could not imagine how you could keep a laminar flow when the join to the opening fan cowls comes into it.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 43):
Is that level of accuracy in the paint thickness able to be achieved by hand, in the paint hangar, when the rest of the aircraft is painted or are the cowls pre-painted elsewhere before installation?

I've only ever seen cowls show up painted (grey or white). They have to be painted to prevent UV damage to the composites. For normal liveries they are over-painted. For the 787, as far as I can tell, they're left alone.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 44):
The bare aluminium on a nose cowl only goes back about 30 cm. The rest of the nose cowl (about a metre) is painted. I believe (I don't know) that the laminar flow is kept to the nose cowl.

If it was just the metal, there'd be no reason to restrict the paint at all.

Tom.
 
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:13 pm

I need some help understanding this. I'm a painter, I know how much I can put on, what volumne and weight it is. I also know we have single coat coverage now, ie weight is down to a bare minimum. The thing I'm not really following is this laminar flow issue; (I also fly privately so I know what it is). What's the difference between any other cowl/nacelle and this "new" one? Serious question, no need for sarcasm please. If anyone knows the size of the area of one of those engine cowls then I'll tell you how much paint would be required.
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting spencer (Reply 46):
What's the difference between any other cowl/nacelle and this "new" one? Serious question, no need for sarcasm please.

Two things:
-A very different profile (much fatter inlet lip and different curvature) to promote natural laminar flow
-Extremely tight surface control (to prevent tripping the laminar boundary layer to turbulent)

It's that second point where the paint comes in...if you lay down too thick a layer it doesn't match properly with the rest of the nacelle and you get a step that will trip the boundary layer.

Tom.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
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RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

You can notice that white and white can mean two very different things if you visit AMS and see DL aircraft with their rather murky shade of white parked next to KLM aircraft with their very bright white, almost like snow. I much prefer the KL white.

Delta's white looks better in high humidity, high temperature environments e.g. Atlanta.

Yes I just made that up.         
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: Guess What Color BA's 787 Engine Nacelles Will Be?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:44 am

So with that in mind, Boeing have created the perfect join between the nacelle and inlet lip? If that's flusher than a layer of paint that's some statement. Or does the inlet lip protrude slightly higher than the nacelle? If that was the case then surely paint could be applied to bring it up to the same level as the lip?
Again, I'm no designer only a painter. I get given a job and I do it. But normally being hands on I get a better idea than the guys with the clipboards on 10x more money haha.
Another point to make is this thickness issue. Unless you've held a paint gun in your hand (not directed at anyone here, just a general note), then you can't honestly know what you're talking about. No two painters are alike, there's different pressure preferences, speed of application and amount you're willing to put on before it's too heavy and runs. Thickness is taken from data that the paint manufacturers issue that come from their "ideal" which in turn is probably machine/robot applied. You have to take into account how much flatting (sanding) of the surface you do. One guy might rub that little extra, scuffing off maybe a micron(?) more than the next guy. Then that same guy might put on less paint and all of a sudden he's UNDER the manufacturer's ideal. Like I mentioned above, single coat coverage is available now, the days of applying multi layer to build a colour up is over. There are of course colours that need several layers and pearls are a good example of this, whereby the base colour is needed before the effect goes on.
Anyway I'm not arguing with any of the points made but any edge I've ever had build up I have always flattened back and polished up.
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM

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