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DocLightning
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Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:17 am

Today we were spotting during the "Asian Rush Hour" (what my hubby and I call the ~11A-2P time when all the Asian flights depart).

Winds were calm (negligible) and it was sunny and warm. I watched a KL 744 and a CX 744 taxi out. CX went to 28L (might have been 28R) and KL went to 1L. KL was cleared off of 1L and then immediately after, CX departed 28L.

Why would KL have used 1L? That runway is typically reserved for North American/Mexico flights. I've seen longer-range flights depart from the 1's when the winds were out of the north, but there was no wind today. That flight typically uses the 28's.

The best I can figure is that it was lightly loaded and departing the 1's requires less turning around to head towards AMS.

Anyone know?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
audidudi
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:27 am

I've seen BA and AF amongst some others use 1R when other long hauls were using 28L/R to Europe. Probably has to do with their loads on the day.
 
as739x
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

KLM use's 1R almost daily. Now using 1L is a real surprise and requires a very light load, using the 1's is not surprising.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 2):
KLM use's 1R almost daily. Now using 1L is a real surprise and requires a very light load, using the 1's is not surprising.

Sorry... my right hand is the one with my thumb on my left.  

It was 1R, not 1L.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
chrisair
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:56 am

I saw a JAL 777 depart off 1R last week.
 
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legacyins
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:19 am

!R is 8,648 ft. I was talking to an KL flight officer once and he said they actually save fuel departing from the 1s because they fly East and cannot always get the Tower's approval for a Shore line? departure. Taking off from the 28s requires them to take off to the West and then bank around to the East. The flights are still pretty heavy but I believe light on the cargo
 
777fan
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:06 am

Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s. I wonder how often a heavy (lightly loaded or otherwise) uses that option; I've never seen it but figure someone on here might have caught it or actually flown it at some point. Like many, I've arrived on 1L in a heavy in the past, (UA51 HNL-SFO, B772) but there was virtually no traffic to contend with, and were extremely light load-wise.

777fan
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migair54
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:53 am

Everyday is different, but modern planes have the option to select any runway or any intersection departure and the FMS can calculate the new V1, Vr and V2 for that day, conditions and weight. So i´m sure if they can save a few Kilos of fuel and flight time they will do. I see almost daily in different places with different carriers.

so if the day permits, why not??,
 
workhorse
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 4):
I saw a JAL 777 depart off 1R last week.

Oh, that's very interesting, I wondered if it can happen since longtime! Have you seen what they did afterwards? Did they go left (over North Bay / Marin County) or right (over San Mateo / Pacifica)?

[Edited 2012-10-14 05:39:46]
 
as739x
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting workhorse (Reply 8):
Oh, that's very interesting, I wondered if it can happen since longtime! Have you seen what they did afterwards? Did they go left (over North Bay / Marin County) or right (over San Mateo / Pacifica)?

JAL uses 1R almost daily. Their departure off 1R is usually a left turn to 350, then radar vectors over the south side of the city (Candalstick Park area) to where ever they are entering their track over the ocean.

You can see here on the 12th, its appeared to fly over the Skaggs VOR before heading towards the ocean.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...1/history/20121013/0155Z/KSFO/RJTT

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s

Winter is coming. We will be seeing the Euro carriers departing 19L when needed during the winter when we get our southerly winds as a Low Pressure system moves in.



Quoting legacyins (Reply 5):

Spot on. The Int'l carriers leaving from A gates save a lot of fuel taking 1R. Not only a shorter taxi, but they also get out quicker then 28 departures since they don't need to get fitted in between 28 arrivals. Then as you mention, they are pointed in the right direction immediately after take-off. This explains why you see Euro flights from the G gates use the 28's, but requests the Shoreline Departure ( immediate turn Northeasterly, for those unfamiliar with SFO). LH even did the Shoreline a few weeks back with the 380, that was impressive.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
so if the day permits, why not??,

To add to your statement, being a foreign airport, the pilots need to be familiar. At SFO, the heavy's are automatically given the 28's in their clearance. They need to be familiar that they can request the 1's, as being discussed in this thread, at SFO.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
workhorse
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 9):
JAL uses 1R almost daily. Their departure off 1R is usually a left turn to 350, then radar vectors over the south side of the city (Candalstick Park area) to where ever they are entering their track over the ocean.

You can see here on the 12th, its appeared to fly over the Skaggs VOR before heading towards the ocean.


Oh, thanks! Makes for a nice sightseeing tour if one seats on the left side (SF -> Sausalito / Tiburon -> Sonoma Valley).
 
chrisair
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting workhorse (Reply 10):
Oh, thanks! Makes for a nice sightseeing tour if one seats on the left side (SF -> Sausalito / Tiburon -> Sonoma Valley).

Any departure off the 1s provides great sightseeing, if it's clear. For northbound departures sit on the left side, for southbound or eastbound departures sit on the right.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Given the terrain issues, it would've been so much more dramatic had the KL flight used either of the 19s. I wonder how often a heavy (lightly loaded or otherwise) uses that option; I've never seen it but figure someone on here might have caught it or actually flown it at some point.

I have on a UA 744 from SFO to ORD in 1998. There were maybe 20 pax on the whole aircraft. The captain came on and told us that this departure would be very swift and that we would be making a sharp left turn after departure. We used 19L and I'm certain it was "max blast" because both the acceleration and the rate of climb were truly impressive. Immediately after wheels up, we made a left turn that felt like a 84-degree bank (I know it wasn't really) and then continued our climb.

To be in a machine that is so huge and yet moves so quickly is a truly impressive experience. It really demonstrates just how much power those PW4000's can pack.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Q
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:30 pm

I saw LH 744 climbed out path from runway 4L at O'Hare in a few years ago. I checked the schedule ORD to FRA. The runway is 7,500 feet pretty short.

Q
 
UALDUDE
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:00 pm

It most likely has to do with the required climb gradient in the even of an engine loss. The 01's have less of a requirement than the 28's do IIRC. Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.
 
TC957
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:26 am

On my last flight out of SFO on VS, we departed on the 1's. Rotation was just after the 28R intersection and a fab view of OAK airport on the climb out. The 744 seemed to keep a dead straight line all the way back, with no noticeable turns.
 
timz
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting UALDUDE (Reply 14):
Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.

What aircraft/weight/temperature combination would dictate using the shorter runway?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Odd Runway Use At SFO Today

Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 16):
Quoting UALDUDE (Reply 14):
Their performance data for that flight probably dictated using the 01's rather the 28's.

What aircraft/weight/temperature combination would dictate using the shorter runway?

He probably meant that the performance data indicated that they COULD use 01R.