krisyyz
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Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:41 pm

I've noticed that both AC 872 and 876 (YYZ-FRA) have been operating a B77W for the last week or so. AC 872 has been a 777 service for years but 876 is usually a A333 or a B763. Is this change due to increased cargo/pax loads or a shortage of A333s?

There is a lot of capacity between YYZ-FRA, the two daily AC B77W flights plus the LH A346 flight. Not to mention TS's A313 flights to FRA (I believe 3 weekly).

AC is sending 3 B77W daily to FRA including the YUL-FRA flights. Does anyone have the weekly or daily seat capacity between Canada and Frankfurt, including LH and TS flights?

Is there any chance that LH will send the B748 or A388 to YYZ next summer? Both planes have a lot of premium seats so I'm not sure whether YYZ is a logical destination for either the 748 or A388.

KrisYYZ
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):
AC is sending 3 B77W daily to FRA including the YUL-FRA flights.

Plus daily 763 YOW-FRA.
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cgnnrw
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:50 pm

Not sure about all your questions but don't forget the AC flight YYC-FRA. They send the A330 on that route
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krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):

Plus daily 763 YOW-FRA.
Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 2):
AC flight YYC-FRA. They send the A330 on that route

And the LH flight from YVR (A346). Obviously FRA is one of, if not the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe. Every time I've flow to FRA from YYZ the plane was pretty much full. I know AC prefers frequency over single flight capacity to most European Hubs, but one could argue (even though it will never happen) that AC could acquire some larger metal for FRA and perhaps LHR ops. If both the cargo and pax loads are there, a higher density B748/A388 could do well on that route.

KrisYYZ
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:23 pm

Isn't the TS service seasonal?
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hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:50 pm

872 has been pretty much the only European flight that has consistently seen the 77W year round. Even 856 (LHR) usually gets downgauged to an A330 in the winter months.

876 has seen 77Ls during the Christmas holiday period in the past, when they were freed up with 087 (PVG) going to 77W.
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pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:44 pm

Cargo is very big on the route and it might be pre-Christmas volume starting to ship, that is part of the loads.

Rumour abounds that the LH 748i will be subbed into YYZ at some point for publicity. It however is far to premium heavy for the the route. And the A380 is far to big for the route. If AC wasn't sending so much belly cargo through FRA then the case could be made that the A380 could take over for LH and AC downgrade to a smaller aircraft. Since there is revenue sharing on the route it doesn't matter what metal the passenger flies on. However, there isn't a similar arrangement for cargo and AC would lose a lot of belly cargo. It would mean either making an arrangement with LH Cargo, another cargo operator or the wetlease again of a MD11F/DC10F as before. So basically it doesn't make financial sense over the current flights for AC. Phase 2 of the Cross Atlantic arrangement of AC/UA/LH could extend to cargo. And if that happens then you could see one carrier upgrade the metal and others downgrade much more readily.
 
reifel
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:47 pm

On a side note, hasn't Condor launched flighs to YYZ as well (in addition to YVR, SEA, YHZ etc). They also use *A Airlines as feeders to FRA... Quite some traffic indeed.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:39 pm

There's a lot of connecting traffic as well. I was on 973 recently and I noticed a small detail I don't usually pay attention to. One of the newspapers on offer was the Strait Times, and there were a lot of takers...
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krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
Cargo is very big on the route and it might be pre-Christmas volume starting to ship, that is part of the loads.

Rumour abounds that the LH 748i will be subbed into YYZ at some point for publicity. It however is far to premium heavy for the the route. And the A380 is far to big for the route. If AC wasn't sending so much belly cargo through FRA then the case could be made that the A380 could take over for LH and AC downgrade to a smaller aircraft. Since there is revenue sharing on the route it doesn't matter what metal the passenger flies on. However, there isn't a similar arrangement for cargo and AC would lose a lot of belly cargo. It would mean either making an arrangement with LH Cargo, another cargo operator or the wetlease again of a MD11F/DC10F as before. So basically it doesn't make financial sense over the current flights for AC. Phase 2 of the Cross Atlantic arrangement of AC/UA/LH could extend to cargo. And if that happens then you could see one carrier upgrade the metal and others downgrade much more readily.

Thanks for the info... I hope we get some advance notice of the B748 coming to YYZ.

I'm surprised that LH cargo doesn't carry AC freight. Did AC operate the wet-leased MD11F while LH cargo was flying to YYZ? Or did LH cargo restart ops after AC terminated the leasing of the World Airways MD-11Fs?

KrisYYZ
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 9):
I'm surprised that LH cargo doesn't carry AC freight. Did AC operate the wet-leased MD11F while LH cargo was flying to YYZ? Or did LH cargo restart ops after AC terminated the leasing of the World Airways MD-11Fs?

I think the issue is that LH does and can carry AC Cargo and vice versa, it is not on a pure revenue sharing basis as per the passenger agreement. Someone "inside" should confirm that. So there is greater profit for AC to ship cargo in the belly of the 777 then in the belly of the LH A346 or LH Cargo MD11F.

AC wet-leased the MD11F prior to LH Cargo doing regular flights and prior to the 777's entering service on a large scale basis. They also stopped the DC10 that flew to China via Calgary. (or was it the MD11 to China and the DC10 to FRA I can't remember?) When the last downturn started and at the same time AC saw how much belly cargo they could carry on the 773 they cancelled the 77Forder and ended the wet-leases.

These days when airlines are reducing newspapers carried, carrying less pop and drinks, all to add a bit of efficiency, the extra profit for AC to carry its own cargo as much as possible adds up.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
And the A380 is far to big for the route.

Not necessarily. It depends partly on how AC and LH wish to split capacity on the route. A few years ago (summer 2007 I think) LH had a daily 744 on YYZ-FRA and AC 2x daily 763 (or one might have been a 333). It was the only summer we had the LH 744 sked into YYZ. If AC needs the 77W capacity more elsewhere, they could downgrade their own metal if LH is able to upgrade from the usual 333/343/346. So the LH 388/748 is possible in a few years once more deliveries are made.
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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
And the A380 is far to big for the route.

Not necessarily. It depends partly on how AC and LH wish to split capacity on the route. A few years ago (summer 2007 I think) LH had a daily 744 on YYZ-FRA and AC 2x daily 763 (or one might have been a 333). It was the only summer we had the LH 744 sked into YYZ. If AC needs the 77W capacity more elsewhere, they could downgrade their own metal if LH is able to upgrade from the usual 333/343/346. So the LH 388/748 is possible in a few years once more deliveries are made.

LH 388 and 748 both are much too premium-heavy for YYZ or any other Canadian markets with 8 F on both and 98 J (388) and 92 J (748). The entire upper deck on the 388 is premium. The AC 77W configuration of 42 J and 307 Y (45 more Y than the LH 748) makes more sense for that market.

The other big advantage of the 77W is the cargo capacity, about 18% greater than the 748 and 22% greater than the 388. If not mistaken FRA-YYZ is AC's largest cargo route.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
The other big advantage of the 77W is the cargo capacity, about 18% greater than the 748 and 22% greater than the 388. If not mistaken FRA-YYZ is AC's largest cargo route.

What I was thinking without the stats. And one of the most profitable cargo routes I have heard. The reason why AC prefers to put the cargo in its own aircraft belly. That is unless AC/LH or the cross Atlantic UA/LH/AC co-op agreement is extended to cargo so it can go onto a cargo LH flight with full profit sharing. I don't think the cargo agreement is a high priority for anyone at the moment.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
LH 388 and 748 both are much too premium-heavy for YYZ or any other Canadian markets with 8 F on both and 98 J (388) and 92 J (748).

True enough, but as LH accepts the entire 388 and 748 orders, it is possible sub-fleets might have more Y seating down the line.
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neveragain
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 3):
Obviously FRA is one of, if not the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe.

It is the busiest by far.

2012 avg daily departing seats on Star Alliance airlines from European airports:

1. FRA: 83,283
2. MUC: 52,685
3. ZRH: 31,759
4. VIE: 25,732
5. LHR: 25,169
6. CPH: 23,093
7. BRU: 19,802
8. OSL: 19,703
9. ARN: 19,333
10. LIS: 18,508
11. DUS: 16,253
12. TXL: 13,722
13. HAM: 13,229
14. CDG: 12,650
15. ATH: 12,116
16. WAW: 10,815
17. GVA: 9,726
18. FCO: 7,424
19. BCN: 7,304
20. MXP: 7,245
 
loveofflying
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:55 pm

LH's a/c are too premium heavy. When I've flown YYZ-FRA or vv on LH, F was usually empty except me.

Plus AC has a large FF base that hope to upgrade on this route. One of the trickiest ones to do so, actually.
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JAGflyer
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:13 pm

What is the reason behind the large cargo feed to/from FRA? We've got full bellies on AC and LH plus the MD-11F all-cargo. From what I can see on the ramp when I am out, there are a lot of pharmacuticals coming into YYZ (ie. lots of envirotainers/coolpacks) from BASF.
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SQ22
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RE: Air Canada Ops At FRA

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:22 pm

What about the rumours about Lufthansa removing first from some aircrafts? As far as I remember the rumours mentioned A343, but maybe they will remove it out of some 744 as well?

How about sending such a bird to YYZ?

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