HB-IWC
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Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:20 am

According to an interview with the KLM country manager in Indonesia published in today's Jakarta Post, Air France will be launching its own flights into Kuala Lumpur in April 2013, complementing KLM's daily operations there. Currently, KLM offers a daily AMS KUL flight, which extends into CGK, and for the upcoming winter season, this daily flight will be reinforced by three additional weekly AMS KUL terminators.

For the summer 2013, Air France will then start its own operations into KUL, and the flight will be timed to feed into KLM's KUL CGK KUL sectors, just as Air France's complement's KLM's operations at Singapore. Apparently, AF will also plans to funnel Australia bound passengers through KUL as its cooperation with Qantas via SIN and HKG is about to come to an end.

Source: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...france-offer-paris-flights-kl.html
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:24 am

Ia Orana all !

I was wondering when this would come out... There was a post on the internal employee forums about KUL being launched from next year.
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
airpearl
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:54 am

Wow, this is great news for KUL - it has been a looong time since a new European carrier started flying in. UTA (and later AF for a very short while after the takeover) was the last French carrier to serve Malaysia a couple of centuries ago.

The possible codeshare on the Australian routes also explains for why MH plans to fly its A380s into Paris. If the long-time speculation about AF blocking MH's entry into SkyTeam is true (and not just another urban legend on A.net), then the AF-MH partnership make for strange bedfellows indeed - and even more so in light of MH's impending entry into oneworld. What a funny old world we live in now.

I wonder what sort of equipment and frequency AF will be using on its KUL flights... a daily B77E?

.
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting airpearl (Reply 2):
I wonder what sort of equipment and frequency AF will be using on its KUL flights... a daily B77E?

AF will fly 3 times a week with a 777-200ER to Kuala Lumpur.
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:50 am

I want to see how long this will last. I could be proved wrong ...

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:50 am

I reckon before that, we will see a daily BA 772 fairly soon, it's bound to happen
 
SR4ever
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:51 am

Any chance MH makes a new u-turn and finally joins SkyTeam?
 
airpearl
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:06 am

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 3):
AF will fly 3 times a week with a 777-200ER to Kuala Lumpur.

A reasonable combination to start - I guess daily would just have been too much, although the decision to coordinate the CGK service with KLM is a good one and could provide the much-needed feed to support this service.



Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 4):
I want to see how long this will last. I could be proved wrong ...

Your skepticism is justified. KUL is not a natural market for AF and nothing in Malaysia has changed to suddenly justify this flight. As KUL offers few regional connections that either SIN and BKK cannot provide, I guess how long this flight will last depends on what sort of agreement with MH they come up with!

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 6):
Any chance MH makes a new u-turn and finally joins SkyTeam?

Now, wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events - IF it happens! Stranger things have happened so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand...
 
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a36001
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:11 am

Please come a bit further to Sydney, it's just a small jump. Whats another 16 hours (return approx) flight time.....would lurrrrve to have an AF B777 here...or an A320 beggars can't be chooses...  
 
Joost
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Air France will then start its own operations into KUL, and the flight will be timed to feed into KLM's KUL CGK KUL sectors, just as Air France's complement's KLM's operations at Singapore

Although AF and KL both serve SIN and therefore have complementary services, there is no scheduled coordination at SIN in order to feed onto KLs SIN-DPS sector. The AF-flight arrives after SIN-DPS has left, and returns to CDG before the arrival of KLs DPS-SIN.

In order to connect onto KLMs KUL-CGK flight, the AF plane needs quite some ground time.

KL 809 16:20-17:20 KUL-CGK
KL 810 18:50-21:50 CGK-KUL

In order to provide connections, AFs arrival and departure time must be almost identical to KLs times (15:00 arrival, 23:15 departure), so over 6 hours ground time.
 
infinit
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:18 am

Wow, this is big. And it'll be a better use of the nice but under-utilized KUL airport.

Quoting airpearl (Reply 7):
Your skepticism is justified. KUL is not a natural market for AF and nothing in Malaysia has changed to suddenly justify this flight. As KUL offers few regional connections that either SIN and BKK cannot provide, I guess how long this flight will last depends on what sort of agreement with MH they come up with!

Like SR4ever, I was thinking what if MH turns to Sky instead? I think is feasible if MH gets into Sky. This will benefit MH tremendously I reckon
 
qf002
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 5):
I reckon before that, we will see a daily BA 772 fairly soon, it's bound to happen

Doubt it, with MH going double daily with the A380 in November. BA doesn't need to fly to KUL, so they are better off using the aircraft elsewhere.

Quoting A36001 (Reply 8):

I can understand the sentiment!
 
AF185
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:15 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 10):
Like SR4ever, I was thinking what if MH turns to Sky instead? I think is feasible if MH gets into Sky. This will benefit MH tremendously I reckon

Until QF decided to tie up with EK, the AF/QF codeshare to Australia was very succesful. But since this codeshare will end in April 2013, AF needs another partner for Australia flights and it seems they could count on MH on top of their new tie up with Etihad.

I have a mixed feeling about this whole situation as the natural choice would have been CGK and the feed to/from GA (future Skyteam member)...
MH into OW was decided before this whole new situation (QF+EK) and I think AF-KL and MH could probably be regretting this choice.

Considering all the new partnerships within airlines from different alliances, it will be interesting to see the plan from AF as this KUL flight does not really seem like the perfect O&D route.
 
Econojetter
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Apparently, AF will also plans to funnel Australia bound passengers through KUL as its cooperation with Qantas via SIN and HKG is about to come to an end.

So this could be another part of AF's replacement for the QF codeshare. Looks like AF/KL are pushing hard to maintain or even gain market share on Europe-Australia vv.
Codeshare with EY was announced not long ago (albeit only involving KL at this point; but there is no reason AF couldn't get into that as well in the next phase).
Now the possible co-operation with MH.
Don't they also work with fellow Skyteam member CZ via CAN? CZ appears to be expanding rather aggressively into Australia.

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 3):
AF will fly 3 times a week with a 777-200ER to Kuala Lumpur.

Hope it goes up to daily soon, otherwise it could be hard to gain traction. ...and this in the face of MH's plans to put the A380 on the CDG route = huge increase in CDG-KUL capacity all of a sudden.

Quoting joost (Reply 9):
The AF-flight arrives after SIN-DPS has left, and returns to CDG before the arrival of KLs DPS-SIN.

The DPS market is leisure-oriented so a longer transit may not be a major deterrent. Perhaps many would like to stop over in SIN anyway. The DPS tag also a takes a considerably longer time than a CGK tag. With minor adjustments, eg later arrival into KUL (for KL) and extended ground stop, they could do what LH did with the FRA/MUC flights at SIN for CGK.

Another thing that has just appeared is the GA-EY co-operation. I wonder how this might work into AF/KL's plans for Indonesia.
 
LH506
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:43 pm

I also believe this will be the end of LHs flight via BKK. They either cancel it completly (99% probability) or start non-stop (1%). There will be too much competition and a one-stop is always in a disadventage..
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 9):
In order to provide connections, AFs arrival and departure time must be almost identical to KLs times (15:00 arrival, 23:15 departure), so over 6 hours ground time.

6 hours ground time might be just fine if it avoids a bad arrival or departure time with poor connection options. 23:15 departure arrives in Europe early/mid morning, 6AM in AMS, CDG must be similar to that. Which is great for connections within Europe and to N Am.
For a 15:00 arrival, one needs a late evening departure from Europe 8-9 PM-ish, which is good for all intra-Europe connections, but not so great for N Am as it means a super long layover.
When I doubt... go running!
 
Aither
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:59 pm

Great : I will fly with AF and connect with Air Asia  
Never trust the obvious
 
LJ
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting airpearl (Reply 7):
Your skepticism is justified. KUL is not a natural market for AF and nothing in Malaysia has changed to suddenly justify this flight. As KUL offers few regional connections that either SIN and BKK cannot provide, I guess how long this flight will last depends on what sort of agreement with MH they come up with!

However, KL manages to fly 10 times weekly to KUL in W13, thus increasing its presence whilst MH will go to oneworld. Thus apparantly Skyteam manages to get a lot of traffic ex KUL.

Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 3):
AF will fly 3 times a week with a 777-200ER to Kuala Lumpur.

It wouldn't surpise me if AF would take over the 3 additional KL frequencies to KUL (thus KL will go down to daily). This will free up a 74E for 3 days.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 17):
However, KL manages to fly 10 times weekly to KUL in W13, thus increasing its presence whilst MH will go to oneworld. Thus apparantly Skyteam manages to get a lot of traffic ex KUL.

Staying in KL last month at the JW Marriott, every other person we met worked for oil (mostly Brits and Dutch). I would suspect that AF/KL has a contract with a number of companies in the area.

Regards,

Team
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LJ
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 12):
I have a mixed feeling about this whole situation as the natural choice would have been CGK and the feed to/from GA (future Skyteam member)...

I doubt GA would be pleased if Af would start CDG-CGK as they're aiming at a daily AMS-CGK nonstop during S13. It will be a challenge filling such a flight, thus any additional competition on Europe - Indonesia is not welcome.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:09 pm

A new AF route is always a good news  
They could have flown to KUL as a tag-on BKK flight. This would have may be helped to improve the results of this difficult route.
 
nicode
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Apparently, AF will also plans to funnel Australia bound passengers through KUL

With MH ?
 
9MMAR
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 6):
Any chance MH makes a new u-turn and finally joins SkyTeam?

It was revealed by a MH insider that the official announcement date of the airline's inception as the 12th OW member will be done on the 12.12.12. The insider also confirmed that MH has completed an assessment process called 'No go/Go' with OW.

Quoting infinit (Reply 10):
And it'll be a better use of the nice but under-utilized KUL airport.

It is quite hard to get rid of past bad reputation. 5 years ago probably, but KUL handled 37,670,586 passengers in 2011, ranked 28th in the world based on total passengers' movement. KUL handled more pax than FCO, IST, SYD or ICN. I think that is hardly under-utilized.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 12):
Until QF decided to tie up with EK, the AF/QF codeshare to Australia was very succesful. But since this codeshare will end in April 2013, AF needs another partner for Australia flights and it seems they could count on MH on top of their new tie up with Etihad.

I have some pondering about the whole issue. If cross-alliances code sharing is not a problem:

- Why KL has to end its JV with MH after all these years of good collaboration? Why can't it continues even if MH is going to be elected into OW?

- Should the A.Net urban legend that AF is the main reason on why MH failed to be courted into Skyteam proved to be true, why AF is choosing MH as its partner to funnel its Australia bound passengers after QF divorced them? Why don't AF simply choose SQ for instance? SIN is a bigger hub than KUL, AF already flying into SIN with the A380, SQ flies into CDG with the A380 too, SQ has significant connections to Australia - would a AF-SQ partnership would be so much easier to establish since everything has been well in place?
 
changyou
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 22):
would a AF-SQ partnership would be so much easier to establish since everything has been well in place?

SQ do not require anymore partnership/code share to Australia as most connecting flights to Australia from Europe are perpectually full. That too for SIN-CDG sector. SQ would rather have all the revenue and yield to themselves. Extensive code share with LH and VA is sufficient to keep a healthy load and yield for its Australia operations.
 
smi0006
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting AF185 (Reply 12):
I have a mixed feeling about this whole situation as the natural choice would have been CGK and the feed to/from GA (future Skyteam member)...

I agree GA would have made a good host out of CGK and given the city another connection point to Europe. I know GA plans on making CGK another hub between Europe, Asia and Australia, but a little help from AF would have given a it of a kick start no?

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 5):
reckon before that, we will see a daily BA 772 fairly soon, it's bound to happen

It would be nice but I don't know, it will be interesting to see how much cooperation we see between MH and BA. I think we will however see QF in KUL soon enough.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 6):
Any chance MH makes a new u-turn and finally joins SkyTeam?

For one code share agreement with AF? Doubtful they just announced their join date. Besides Skyteam have the ever up and coming, growing GA!
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:14 am

Why doesn't AF use its alliance partner CZ for Australian connections? CZ has been rapidly expanding in the Australia/New Zealand market and serves SYD, MEL, BNE, PER, AKL & soon CNS.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24):
I agree GA would have made a good host out of CGK and given the city another connection point to Europe. I know GA plans on making CGK another hub between Europe, Asia and Australia, but a little help from AF would have given a it of a kick start no?

I really enjoy indonesia. I even enjoy Jakarta. Its dirty, messy but has its charm and its people are great always a smile.

But anyone thats been to Jakartas international airport knows that it has no future as a place for international transfers. Backpackers sure or anyone buying tickets only based on price but the rest, no way...
Its chaotic, old, worn and anything but transfer friendly.

And if you want people to start making stopovers. Quite a few actually does so in SIN etc at the moment. Wow what mayhem.
Imagine the lines to get visa upon arrival and then on to the chaotic and completely disorganised chaos thats called immigration. Compare it with lets say KUL. Its fairly clear that no western airline would wanna do this in Jakarta the way it looks today.
Standing in line waiting to get through immigration after an international flight arrives, lets say Etihad, can easily take an hour. Last time I was there, about 2 weeks ago, immigration refused to let two africans in. After they were rejected by the officer they werent escorted away. Nope they got denied and thus simply wondered to the next immigration desk. they are all line dup in a line. They had an argument loud one with the second immigration officer. Apparently they didnt have a visa for Indonesia (very good reason not to be let in). The immigration person in one booth screamed go back to your country we dont want you here (very professional). The Africans didnt seem to care much they just moved on further and further to the left of the row and finally they had walked past all immigration booths towards some gates where one regular staff member security guard or so then let them in. They then walked right next to me down to collect their luggage.
Guess how they got in passed the security guard? (Answer is money paid)

You would have thought that someone would come, ask them to go to a different place after the first immigration officer had rejected them but oh no he just let them move on and no superior was there to handle it and no one called a guard or anything. felt like a domestic terminal before 11/9.

Sokaerno Hatta is an airport that is an end destination for any western airline. Transfers there are just not attractive when you compare them the other airports in the region. Until they build a new airport or terminal and shape up their procedures and processes thats likely to remain the case.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
changyou
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24):
it will be interesting to see how much cooperation we see between MH and BA

An insider told me MH will feed BA to South East Asia while CX will feed BA to Australia...
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:54 am

Flight schedules have now been published:

AF246 CDG KUL 1940 1350+1
AF241 KUL CDG 2315 0600+1

Flights operate 3 times weekly with B772ER.

Quoting joost (Reply 9):
In order to connect onto KLMs KUL-CGK flight, the AF plane needs quite some ground time.

KL 809 16:20-17:20 KUL-CGK
KL 810 18:50-21:50 CGK-KUL

In order to provide connections, AFs arrival and departure time must be almost identical to KLs times (15:00 arrival, 23:15 departure), so over 6 hours ground time.

Connectivity with KL's KUL CGK KUL sectors is indeed guaranteed by the above schedule.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):
Flight schedules have now been published:

AF246 CDG KUL 1940 1350+1
AF241 KUL CDG 2315 0600+1

That's a long time on the ground. Do you think they could have in mind to add a tag to another "local" destination ?
 
akhmad
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 29):
Do you think they could have in mind to add a tag to another "local" destination ?

If that's the case, I am thinking of SUB, making KUL a scissor hub to Indonesian capital cities.
Friends forever
 
changyou
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:36 am

MH will deploy the 380 to CDG...ain't it gonna be over capacity on KUL-CDGvv?
 
SR4ever
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RE: Air France To Start Kuala Lumpur Route

Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:45 am

Intrestingly, AF will deploy a 4-class 77E on this route, while BKK is served with a low-yield (COI) 77W. Does KUL outyield BKK for European airlines?

Notwithstanding its current hard days, AF still seems to be expanding on some markets. In Asia, the combianed network AF-KL is quite impressive, but it seems that KL is favored when opening new routes. Still, could AF fly again to TPE and CGK?

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