Farhoody
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Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:08 am

what airlines are opening cabin doors from outside (upon arrival)? and what type of aircraft thees airlines operate?
 
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EK413
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:16 am

I'm not sure exactly what your referring to but I'll take a wild guess at it and give it a shot...

I believe it's a standard operation across the board with the crew required to crack open the doors... As an example EK crew open and close the doors on all aircraft and at no point do the ground staff open the doors except for when the aircraft are being towed off bay by engineers...
The main reason why crew carry out the task is due to the possibility of the doors being armed and therefore resulting in the slides being deployed...

EK413
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aznmadsci
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:40 am

While I'm not sure of their widebody flights, I remember sCO on narrowbody domestic flights, grounds crew opened the doors after they got the thumbs up from inside after knocking on the door(s). Airport staff were the ones I remember opening and closing, not the FAs.
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q747400
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:45 am

Upon arrival Qantas (QF) ground staff open all doors, B737-400, B737-800, B767-300, B747-400, A330-200, A330-300, not sure about the A380 as we don't get these aircraft in our port. Simple as, knock twice and await reply, this being knock back and thumbs up.
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:51 am

At Delta the gate agent opens and closes all mainline Delta and Compass doors. The ERJ-145's & CRJ-200/-700/-900's have their doors open and closed by the FA. For Shuttle America the gate agent only opens the door, the FA closes the door. The procedure when opening the door is to knock and get a thumbs up from the FA before opening.
 
m404
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:52 am

That's it EK143. I guess the only time that would not be true is some real small operations. I don't think many of the regional planes especially turboprobs have the evacuation slide and some operations use the flight attendant to offload the passengers directly to the ramp. So I guess a rule might be - if the plane is tall and the passengers would be very much harmed by jumping say, because of the size of the engine and /or gear holding it off the ground then they may not have the slide to worry about. Possibly operational rules in some areas may differ.

Another reason is that the biggers planes doors are pretty heavy and pulling them open from the gate is easier than pushing from the inside. Yet another reason is you don't want a harried flight attendant open ing the door until the gate is completly extended to the plane. Most planes when I worked had a red ribbon across the peep hole to tell the gate agents that it was still locked.
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happyhaydn
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:48 am

Hi

I know that VS have their ground crew open the doors, whereas U2 have their crew open doors. I guess it's down to individual airline SOP's. Most modern aircraft doors "should" disarm automatically when opened from the outside. The 737 is the exception to this, as the door is armed by the crew manually pinning the slides girt bar to floor brackets, ie non mechanical. This is the main reason for the orange strips across the windows. It ensures that the ground crew know not to open the door as the slide is armed.

Hope this helps.

[Edited 2012-10-17 23:49:32]
 
smi0006
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
I believe it's a standard operation across the board with the crew required to crack open the doors...
Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
The main reason why crew carry out the task is due to the possibility of the doors being armed and therefore resulting in the slides being deployed...

Not really, I believe that it is an Australian CASA rule that groudstaff open and close all doors, the exception being the 737s and Dash-8s the crew will crack the door, from there it is the ground-staff who latch the gust lock in, and release it closing it back to cracked position from where the crew full close and seal.

It is for safety reasons; I believe if an armed door is opened from the outside some door types will disarm, others it is much easier for the ground-staff to checked the 'girt bar' (the bar that attaches the slide to the aircraft) is not still in place, where as the crew can't see this as easily from the inside a double precaution if you will. There have been cases where Cabin Crew have opened armed door from the inside, there was one in MAD a few years ago- several ground-staff along with a couple of cabin crew and passengers around the door were killed... The slides are explosive and inflate to a high pressure.

DJ / VA along with QF have ground-staff opening their doors, as does UA, BA, maybe SQ? soon PR also. Varies from jurisdiction!
 
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EK413
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting q747400 (Reply 3):
Upon arrival Qantas (QF) ground staff open all doors, B737-400, B737-800,

Have the handling of the B734 and B73H at QF changed? I believe the cabin crew need to crack the door open and then the ground staff open the doors... This process is in place due to the possible deployment of the slides...

Quoting m404 (Reply 5):

Your right... I believe the process would vary from airline to airline...

EK413
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edina
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:45 am

"DJ / VA along with QF have ground-staff opening their doors, as does UA, BA, maybe SQ? soon PR also. Varies from jurisdiction!"


BA cabin crew open/close doors on all aircraft. Up until around 15 years ago there was an exception with the 747, but SOP's were standardised.
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VictorTango
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:53 am

For CX/KA, ramp agents open aircraft doors upon arrival for all these types mentioned below.

CX - 333/343/773/772/744
KA - 320/321/330
 
BAeRJ100
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 7):
Not really, I believe that it is an Australian CASA rule that groudstaff open and close all doors, the exception being the 737s and Dash-8s the crew will crack the door, from there it is the ground-staff who latch the gust lock in, and release it closing it back to cracked position from where the crew full close and seal.

Up until the end of last year our door procedure was that crew on both the BAe 146/Avro RJ and our QFLink 717s always open the door to the fully open position themselves, after which the ground staff would roll up the stairs. After an incident in which a 717 crew member fell out of the door while trying to close it, our procedure was then changed that ground staff had to roll up the stairs and then open the door from the outside. I'm not quite sure if it really is a CASA rule if we were able to do it completely differently.
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EK413
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting BAeRJ100 (Reply 11):

If that be the case "knock on wood" we don't have an incident with crew on B77Ws opening and closing doors... It's a long way down!

EK413
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longhauler
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:43 pm

At AC, all cabin doors are opened from the outside.
On arrival, the Service Director gives a thumbs up through the porthole indicating all doors are disarmed.
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aerlingusa330
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:23 pm

Same at EI. Ground staff knocks, waits for the thumbs up, and opens from the outside. This is partially due to the fact that it's easier to see the door swing & clearance from the outside so no damage is done to the door if the jetbridge isn't parked properly. It's also a heavy door, so the ground staff can usually handle the door easier. This is for the A330's, I can't speak the same for the A319/A320/A321s.
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Geo772
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:30 pm

While it will be down to the operating procedures of the airline there are reasons as to why you'd open the door from the outside. The act of opening a door from the outside will disarm the power assist and the slide automatically.
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xjramper
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:36 pm

With the exception of 1 DCI carrier (and the CRJ family and all 50 seat or less Embraer aircraft), DL requires all ground staff to open the cabin doors after a quick knock and a thumbs up as well as close the door.

The only thing the F/As do with the door on DL is disarm the slide. Once the jetway is attached and autoleveled, the gate agent meeting the aircraft will knock on the door, the F/A gives a thumbs up or down and that is our only indication that the door has been disarmed. The agent meeting the aircraft will both completely open and close the door to the aircraft, with no F/A help, which can be interesting with a shorter agent trying to open or close a 757 door.

Interestingly enough, on the E175s (and I would assume the 190 series as well) there is a visible indicator that the door has been disarmed. Ironically enough, that aircaft also has the biggest problem with slide deployment.

One of my scariest moments was when I was meeting an MD80. When the slide is in "arm" mode it hooks under two metal flanges in the floor and when it is disarmed, it just rests on two flanges on the door. Well somehow after the F/A disarmed the slide, it fell back to the floor and rehooked on one side. After I received the thumbs up, I went to open the door and the only thing that saved my life was the simple fact that the clear protector over the slide came loose and the entire slide just fell into the jetway. You better believe I was half way up the jetbridge before the F/A said it was okay to come back.
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JBLUA320
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:43 pm

At JetBlue, we also have our ground crew open/close the doors. Ground crew knocks, gets a thumbs up from the FA, and the door is opened. The only time a flight attendant would open the door is if we were in a non-JetBlue city that had no JetBlue ground staff (ie, charter or diversion).
 
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longhauler
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 16):
Interestingly enough, on the E175s (and I would assume the 190 series as well) there is a visible indicator that the door has been disarmed. Ironically enough, that aircraft also has the biggest problem with slide deployment.

It IS very confusing with a vent flap lever, a slide lever and a door lever! I am not surprised there have been "issues".

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 15):
The act of opening a door from the outside will disarm the power assist and the slide automatically.

That is the theory. There have been incidents though, on both our A320 series and EMJ series aircraft where the slide DID deploy when opened from the outside.
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FI642
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:44 pm

Unfortunately, I have experienced a slide that was supposedly disarmed not being disarmed. The slide appeared to be disarmed, and as the door opened......so did the slide. The DC-10 grew a large yellow tongue! Thankfully it was the R2 door being opened for the catering truck, so no one was injured.
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gulfstream650
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:44 pm

Here is a Qantas 767 door training vid: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=dijpw392JU0
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virgincrew
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:26 pm

At VS - the ground staff open the doors from the outside - once the cabin crew have given the 'thumbs up' to confirm the door has been dis-armed.

The doors are closed by the cabin crew - this is across the Airbus & Boeing Fleet.
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david21487
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 16):
The agent meeting the aircraft will both completely open and close the door to the aircraft, with no F/A help, which can be interesting with a shorter agent trying to open or close a 757 door.

Most DL flight attendants will assist. We're allowed to "push" on the door in an effort to help the gate agent open it.

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 21):
The doors are closed by the cabin crew - this is across the Airbus & Boeing Fleet.

I wish we did it that way. A lot of the doors (specifically the 757 and 737) are a lot easier for us to close from the inside than for the agents to close from the outside.
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mayor
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:57 pm

I remember ages ago, when I worked at ORD and DL was still on "H" concourse, that I walked out of Ops between gate 10 and 11 and heard someone hollering. The DL 747 was parked at 11A/B and, apparently, someone had forgotten to disarm the slide because when the caterer went to open the door, the slide inflated and chased him thru the truck and he was sitting on the rear platform, about 20+ feet in the air. The front of the truck looked like it had a gasket around it.
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ozark1
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:13 pm

At AA we crack the door for the agent on the MD80 and 737 after they knock twice. We have an orange strap that goes over the viewing window in the door, and once we remove that the agent knows the door is disengaged from the evacuation slide. On all other aircraft, they knock twice, we give them the thumbs up, and they open the door from the outside.
 
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:52 pm

Add SQ to the list, at LHR the dispatcher opens the door on the A380s and 777s that we get.

Quoting q747400 (Reply 3):
not sure about the A380 as we don't get these aircraft in our port.

Yes ground staff open the door from the outside for the A380 as well.
 
GT4EZY
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:22 am

I've never truly understood why some airlines have ground crew operate the doors. Firstly, many door types appear more difficult to open/close from the outside plus I am of the firm belief that cabin crew should gain as much exposure to door operation as possible, not least so that in an emergency it becomes second nature almost.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:35 am

On widebody aircraft at least it is normal for ground crew to open the door from the outside... this is because they can see if there are any obstructions that could damage the door and because opening a door from the outside automatically disarms it. Crew opening it from the inside could accidentally open it whilst armed meaning that the slide/raft would deploy potentially injuring or killing someone outside the aircraft, damaging equipment/door, slides are expensive to repack, aircraft out of service costs.

On smaller aircraft like the 737 however it is more normal for either ground or crew to open it depending on the airline.
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longhauler
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 26):
I've never truly understood why some airlines have ground crew operate the doors.

The theory is that when working properly, the slide will not deploy even if armed when opened from the outside.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 26):
I am of the firm belief that cabin crew should gain as much exposure to door operation as possible, not least so that in an emergency it becomes second nature almost.

That has a very negative side effect. There have been occurrences in the past where during an emergency evacuation, the Flight Attendant disarmed the slide before opening the door ... because that is what she always did!!!
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b727fa
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Interestingly enough, on the E175s (and I would assume the 190 series as well) there is a visible indicator that the door has been disarmed. Ironically enough, that aircraft also has the biggest problem with slide deployment.

The vent flap can cause some confusion at times. Here is why it is vitally important that the flap is CLOSED prior opening the door from the outside: the arming lever and the vent flap lever are "nested" together and "feel" like a single round handle/lever. However, they can be "split" and just the "inner handle" (arming lever) can move and disarm the door. The vent flap can still be "closed" in this situation.

Here's where it gets tricky. It's ALSO possible to leave the door ARMED and the VENT FLAP open. So if a person walks up, sees the vent flap open, they don't actually know the door is disarmed. In that case, the door can be opened and the slide deployed. The action of operating the arming handle/vent flap handle as ONE unit disarms the door and opens the vent flap. When they are "split" there can be false indications/visual cues as to the actual status of the door/slide. There is a gear on the vent flap mechanism that, when in place, ie, closed--and then opened (from the outside) or disarmed (inside) it automatically disarms the door.

To ensure that "fail-safe" works, it's therefore imperative to ensure the flap is closed prior to opening the door from the outside. It's the only way one can "know" they're are opening a disarmed door.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 26):
plus I am of the firm belief that cabin crew should gain as much exposure to door operation as possible, not least so that in an emergency it becomes second nature almost.

There is a counter argument (that most airlines are adopting) that the act of arming/disarming a door is the "second nature" for NORMAL door operation that FA's need. The only time an FA would *ever* open a door is in an EMER and they don't want the "second nature" of disarming a door prior to opening it to muddy the waters. That has been a problem on more than one evac--perfectly good exits are useless b/c the FA's, through "second nature" disarm their doors b/c it was drilled into them to DISARM every time you touch a door prior to opening.
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harrystanhope
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:17 am

I was under the impression that it was an aircraft procedure not airline procedure.

I work JQ ground handling and for our Airbus we open the doors but for the QF Boeing the cabin crack the doors and then ground staff completely open the door..
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting HarryStanhope (Reply 30):
I was under the impression that it was an aircraft procedure not airline procedure.

I work JQ ground handling and for our Airbus we open the doors but for the QF Boeing the cabin crack the doors and then ground staff completely open the door..

It's not...

DL, the gate agents open and close the doors on all mainline a/c (Boeing, Airbus, etc.) Of course there's an exception for the widebodies because of the automatic closing system.
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harrystanhope
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:38 am

Ok cool, didnt know that!

do each aircraft, lets say Airbus A320, have the capability to open the door from both the inside and outside?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:48 am

It is very simple. If a door is acccidentally left in the armed position it will deploy the slide raft. If opened fromthe OUTSIDE it automatically disarms the system.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:02 am

If its a locked Aircraft being accessed by Maintenance......

Otherwise clearence can be sought from the outside team near an aerobridge,but finally operating the door is from Inside unless the above point applies........
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iahcsr
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 am

I once met a 747 where the FA opened the door still armed.. I was able to keep the door from fully opening... for maybe 20 seconds. After that I ran like hell :-/ Lucky for me the slide has to drop below door level to trip inflation. It just went splat on the jetbridge floor and hissed but that was it.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 31):
I work JQ ground handling and for our Airbus we open the doors but for the QF Boeing the cabin crack the doors and then ground staff completely open the door..

shorthaul aircraft only. QF policy for its longhaul aircraft and most shorthaul too is for ground to open. AFAIK its only 737s that the crew open/crack.
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quiet1
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 26):
I've never truly understood why some airlines have ground crew operate the doors. Firstly, many door types appear more difficult to open/close from the outside plus I am of the firm belief that cabin crew should gain as much exposure to door operation as possible, not least so that in an emergency it becomes second nature almost.

Not only:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 27):
On widebody aircraft at least it is normal for ground crew to open the door from the outside... this is because they can see if there are any obstructions that could damage the door and because opening a door from the outside automatically disarms it. Crew opening it from the inside could accidentally open it whilst armed meaning that the slide/raft would deploy potentially injuring or killing someone outside the aircraft, damaging equipment/door, slides are expensive to repack, aircraft out of service costs.

and

Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
That has a very negative side effect. There have been occurrences in the past where during an emergency evacuation, the Flight Attendant disarmed the slide before opening the door ... because that is what she always did!!!

But, also F/As are almost "muscle memory trained" on how to open a door in an evacuation. The entire process from shouting commands on the jumpseat while crashing to opening the door, it's drilled in to almost be a reflex. One part of that process on any aircraft door with a power assist is to rotate the handle and LET GO! Otherwise, the door will fling the F/A out the door opening. By manually opening the door on a routine basis day in/day out where you must keep your hands on the door to push it open and... you can see what might happen in the rare event of an evacuation, no?
 
Farhoody
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:15 pm

Thank you all for your responses. But what about Arab carriers (such as EK, EY, QR, MS, KU, WY, GF) are they open doors from outside? any idea?
 
drgmobile
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 17):
At JetBlue, we also have our ground crew open/close the doors. Ground crew knocks, gets a thumbs up from the FA, and the door is opened. The only time a flight attendant would open the door is if we were in a non-JetBlue city that had no JetBlue ground staff (ie, charter or diversion).

I can think of another time when the flight attendant opened the door instead of the ground crew. But that didn't end well.
 
GT4EZY
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:27 pm

But disarming/arming doors is, at most airlines, a very separate process to operating the door. Operating the door and arming/disarming the door are totally separate actions that take place minutes apart. Plus, remember the arming/disarming is still the crews responsibility regardless. They are still taught to disarm the door before the door is opened....regardless of who opens it.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 37):
By manually opening the door on a routine basis day in/day out where you must keep your hands on the door to push it open and... you can see what might happen in the rare event of an evacuation, no?

No i don't agree. But then that is probably because every airline I have worked for, door operation has been down to cabin crew.
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smi0006
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:45 pm

EK and QR crew open the cabin doors and close them. I'd imagine EY would do the same.
 
Callbell
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting aerlingusa330 (Reply 14):

Same at EI. Ground staff knocks, waits for the thumbs up, and opens from the outside. This is partially due to the fact that it's easier to see the door swing & clearance from the outside so no damage is done to the door if the jetbridge isn't parked properly. It's also a heavy door, so the ground staff can usually handle the door easier. This is for the A330's, I can't speak the same for the A319/A320/A321s.

Quoting aerlingusa330 (Reply 14):

Sorry but you are wrong. EI crew open doors themselves from the inside at all stations, on both the A330 and A320 family. In addition the doors all have power assist so its not any easier for the ground staff.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting aerlingusa330 (Reply 14):
Same at EI. Ground staff knocks, waits for the thumbs up, and opens from the outside. This is partially due to the fact that it's easier to see the door swing & clearance from the outside so no damage is done to the door if the jetbridge isn't parked properly. It's also a heavy door, so the ground staff can usually handle the door easier. This is for the A330's, I can't speak the same for the A319/A320/A321s.

My last time sitting in row 11 on an EI A330....it looked more like the cabin crew opening the door that getting any assistance from ground staff. 2 crew opened that door that day. There was also a PA call from the cabin crew head which said "cabin crew OK to open doors"
 
22886
Posts: 387
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting Farhoody (Reply 38):
But what about Arab carriers (such as EK, EY, QR, MS, KU, WY, GF)

On EY, MS, WY and SV cabin crew open the doors from the inside.
 
737tdi
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RE: Airlines Open Cabin Doors From Outside

Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:38 am

I did not read the last few posts. I will tell you this. WN pops the door open after disarming the slide and returning the streamer to the disarmed position. The gate agent then opens the door.

I can tell you I popped a slide once. I went downline to work an aircraft (AUS. and I still remember). We pulled the stand up to the Aft Entry door, there was no flag over the window but when I opened the door the slide was armed and deployed. I got lucky that it deployed downwards from the workstand instead of straight down on top of me. Got to be aware, but these things are not hard to deploy. It probably would have just knocked me around a bit?? Oh well.

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