DariusBieber
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Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:48 am

Myself being a frequent Trans-Atlantic flyer into DUS, I was wondering if Delta (or any other US-Airline) will offer new routes into DUS.

When I flew Pre-9/11 into DUS, I had many options, including a DC-10 to EWR with UA or a 762 (I think...) to ORD with AA. I flew SAT-DTW-DUS when Northwest came out with the route. Although the route lasted only 2 years, the B752 was completely packed whenever I flew the flight.

Since Northwest is now Delta, I was wondering (hoping) if DTW-DUS would ever come back? DTW was such a better connecting airport than ATL is....
Darius Bieber
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:16 am

Would love to see it, the auto industry should be able to support the business end of it and if they did it in the summer like FCO im sure it would be over 80% Daily. DTW-DUS Summer 2013 bring it on =)
 
PHX787
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:30 am

I know AB was doing a lot of expanding out of DUS with various routes along the states. No reason why they wouldn't start new routes.

As for the DL route, I'm sure it will come back sometime, especially with the auto industry beginning to have somewhat of an upswing. A 763 would do this route good justice.
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FSDan
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:29 am

The problem is that DL has a decent amount of capacity (764) on DTW-FRA. I'm sure that a DTW-DUS flight would cannibalize some of that traffic. How much O&D demand is there between Detroit and Frankfurt compared to Detroit and Dusseldorf/North Rhine-Westphalia?
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:45 am

They could pick up some O&D to and from DUS from the eastern Netherlands, too......easier for some of them to fly out of there rather than AMS.
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cgnnrw
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:28 am

It would be fantastic for DUS get more service to the States. In a seperate thread I suggested LH into PHL. The majority of posters didn't think it would work and if a route to PHL was started US would be a better candidate using one of their TATL 757s.

I'm not sure if AB is currently in the financial position to start a new route to the States. If they do most likey to Chicago where they can codeshare with AA and gain a lot of feed on that side.

DL appears to be doing well with their ATL route so it seems their brand is not unfamiliar in this part of Germany. However, as already pointed out starting DTW could harm their FRA-DTW loads. Perhaps a 757 as in the old NW days would be an option. In any event I would really welcome a new destination to the States from DUS.
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PanHAM
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 3):
How much O&D demand is there between Detroit and Frankfurt compared to Detroit and Dusseldorf/North Rhine-Westphalia?

well,, there is an automotive cluster around Frankfurt which generates a lot of traffic to DTW and not only there. Besides the ailing GM affiliate Opel, we have a number of Japanese and Korean importers with their German HQ, German suppliers plus universities focusing on engieering.

On top of that comes the connectivity FRA offers.

Lost of that applies to DUS as well, with Ford in Cologne, a Daimler van assembly, suppliers in that region, Mazda in Leverkusen.

But then , DUS is 90 minutes by train from FRA and about the same by car,
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DariusBieber
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
But then , DUS is 90 minutes by train from FRA and about the same by car,

That is true, but it is a lot quicker to get through the Bundespolizei Pass Kontrolle in DUS than it is in FRA.
Darius Bieber
 
jcwr56
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting DariusBieber (Thread starter):
Myself being a frequent Trans-Atlantic flyer into DUS, I was wondering if Delta (or any other US-Airline) will offer new routes into DUS.

I will say yes, you'll see a new DUS service from a US legacy for S13.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 3):
I'm sure that a DTW-DUS flight would cannibalize some of that traffic.

So folks would rather not fly out of DUS and instead drive to an airport that's 3 hours away? Yah right!
 
neveragain
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 8):
I will say yes, you'll see a new DUS service from a US legacy for S13.

And what service do you expect that will be?
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:22 pm

I doubt youll see any new DL service to DUS. It is a StarAlliance hub.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:26 pm

DL to DTW would be really nice.
It would make flying to the northern parts of the US and the entire Midwest way more attractive. Even destinations like DEN would require at least 90 minutes or less travel time.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
crj200faguy
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:17 pm

People clamoring for more 752 service over the pond. Now I've seen everything
 
kl911
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:08 pm

I dont see it happening. Using highspeed rail Dusseldorf is just over 2 hours from Amsterdam.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 14):
I dont see it happening. Using highspeed rail Dusseldorf is just over 2 hours from Amsterdam.

So why do airlines fly into BRU and AMS, when they're just under 2 hours from each other via rail? Same goes with Paris and London?
Logic fail!

DUS is the largest intercontinental airport in the second largest metropolitan area of Germany (Dusseldorf-Cologne-Bonn-Essen-Dortmund). If the potential exists, then go for it. Frankly, given the sizable hub that AB has there and their presence in One World, AA isn't flying there from ORD or DFW (AB flies to JFK and MIA already).
 
civetfive
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:15 pm

I personally think we'll see expanded services between DUS-Asia and DUS-MIddle East before we see any substantial increase in DUS-USA flights. The USA-European market is largley mature, and there simply aren't many city pairs with O&D that aren't currently being serviced through an existing nonstop or with onestop, megahub service.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:11 pm

Well, Air China has recently started non-stop service to PEK from DUS.
I still don't understand why there still isn't a flight to NRT again though.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 11):
I doubt youll see any new DL service to DUS. It is a StarAlliance hub.

Again with this type of comment. DL is not StarAlliance and is precisely why they should go into the market and i think from DTW (Hate the 757 for TA but thats another story). Theres always one person who says oh no its blah blah blahs hub as if that should deter any other airline from trying to compete. Airlines are part of alliances i get that but we cant let this stifle competition so badly that major cities are one alliance turf...
 
jcwr56
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 15):
DUS is the largest intercontinental airport in the second largest metropolitan area of Germany (Dusseldorf-Cologne-Bonn-Essen-Dortmund). If the potential exists, then go for it. Frankly, given the sizable hub that AB has there and their presence in One World, AA isn't flying there from ORD or DFW (AB flies to JFK and MIA already).

Reference my other post and you have a winner.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 11):
It is a StarAlliance hub.

Really? Since the biggest carrier out of there (AB) happens to be part of One World?
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 20):
Really? Since the biggest carrier out of there (AB) happens to be part of One World?

With the new Etihad/Air France developments regarding AB, I would not be surprised to see another DL flight, just saying.  
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
YYZAMS
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:46 pm

I believe AC or LH has nonstop into DUS from YYZ but I think it may be seasonal.
 
aviateur
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:24 am

DUS? Nah. And DL has been cutting international routes like crazy.

[Edited 2012-10-19 18:54:30]
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
Viscount724
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 22):
I believe AC or LH has nonstop into DUS from YYZ but I think it may be seasonal.

LH has seasonal service YYZ-DUS about 3 x week. I think it's April-September.
 
DariusBieber
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
LH has seasonal service YYZ-DUS about 3 x week. I think it's April-September.

Correct, during the winter months I believe they send that aircraft to MIA.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting DariusBieber (Thread starter):
Since Northwest is now Delta, I was wondering (hoping) if DTW-DUS would ever come back? DTW was such a better connecting airport than ATL is....

If Delta starts any new Germany routes it will be from JFK or ATL(BER)

You guys are funny....DTW-DUS over JFK-DUS. That would pretty much mean a complete 180 from Delta(which has been, as of late add from JFK to Europe.....and thats it.)

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
DTW-DUS Summer 2013 bring it on =)

won't happen.

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 5):
Perhaps a 757 as in the old NW days would be an option.

not likely. NW had its 75As with a pretty low Y config (144Y) and only 16C seats. This allowed them to fly FRA/DUS with 757s.

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 11):

I doubt youll see any new DL service to DUS. It is a StarAlliance hub.

and your point?

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 19):
Reference my other post and you have a winner.

oh no...not more Oneworld capacity to Europe. Sometimes I think they just enjoy losing money.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 23):
DUS? Nah. And DL has been cutting international routes like crazy.

not really. seasonal? sure.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 3):
The problem is that DL has a decent amount of capacity (764) on DTW-FRA. I'm sure that a DTW-DUS flight would cannibalize some of that traffic. How much O&D demand is there between Detroit and Frankfurt compared to Detroit and Dusseldorf/North Rhine-Westphalia?

Keep in mind that NW flew DTW-FRA with a 333 (298) seats compared to the 246 on the 764. NW also at one time operated two flights a day to FRA 1x 333 and 1x 752 in addition to DUS.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 27):

Keep in mind that NW flew DTW-FRA with a 333 (298) seats compared to the 246 on the 764. NW also at one time operated two flights a day to FRA 1x 333 and 1x 752 in addition to DUS.

NW also didn't have two other flights to FRA....
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FI642
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:36 pm

CO used to fly a DC-10 from EWR to DUS. Great flight, loved taking it.
I go to FMO from there, so AMS is also an option. The train is so easy
to take from AMS!

I can't see a lot more frequency added. Shame though, nice airport to transit.
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mhkansan
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 5):
I'm not sure if AB is currently in the financial position to start a new route to the States. If they do most likey to Chicago where they can codeshare with AA and gain a lot of feed on that side.

AB is starting BER-ORD. I'm sure that if ORD works as well as I know it will for them, they'll bump it up to daily and perhaps add a few weekly frequencies to DUS.

While I hope to see AA return to a few markets in Europe with its plans for more international capacity and routes, I think most of the growth we'll see in developing markets, especially South America (ASU) and Asia - Perhaps even a MIA-JNB flight as keeps getting rumored.

Well I"ll sure have my fingers crossed. OW needs to get back in the game to Germany. It's a HUGE global economy that they denoted to serving completely via LHR and MAD and one nonstop to FRA. I think the relationship with AB, and its continued transformation into a European network carrier, will significantly help OW regain what it has lost in Europe/Germany.
 
jcwr56
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 30):

You will get your wish.  
 
LJ
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 15):

So why do airlines fly into BRU and AMS, when they're just under 2 hours from each other via rail? Same goes with Paris and London?
Logic fail!

This is not entirely correct. Many international airlines (from outside Europe) fly to AMS but don't fly to BRU whereas the opposite also occurs (i.e. Ethiad, Qatar and MEA). The only exceptions are UA, DL and US. However, these are easily explainable. BRU is a Star hub and has significant traffic due to the NATO, EU and a few large multinationals. UA serves AMS because of its size. DL has some loyal pax (corporate contracts) on JFK-BRU and serves BRU in order to make sure Star isn't the only one in town (thus doing KL and AF a favor). Leaves US, but they want to be present in AMS probably for the same reason why UA is flying to AMS (there is still a lot of cross investment going on between The Netherlands and the US). Moreover, they're down to 5 weekly 757 at AMS, which is probably the minimum capacity on such a route in order to attract business pax.

BTW EK served DUS long before AMS and always cited the location of DUS compared to AMS as a reason not to start pax flights (untill they decided to start AMS last year).

I dont have to go into why airlines serve both Paris and London as DUS isn't comparable to Paris or London (and not even to AMS) if you look at market size.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 15):

DUS is the largest intercontinental airport in the second largest metropolitan area of Germany (Dusseldorf-Cologne-Bonn-Essen-Dortmund). If the potential exists, then go for it

Yet, DUS hasn't seen much growth long haul. CA started DUS-PEK, but LHs and NHs plans ex DUS didn't materialise as well. The NH flights didn't materialise even though there is a very large Japanese population around DUS (which, if some reports are correct, are sometimes bussed to FRA for the NH flight). Thus location between many large hubs (FRA, AMS, BRU) does matter.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:14 pm

NH actually has a dedicated shuttle to FRA from Düsseldorf. Thus, I am always surprised that they cannot seem to get DUS to work for them. Maybe with some more 787s in their fleet it will be feasible.

https://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/local/int/service/limousine/fra/index.html
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
deltairlines
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 28):
NW also didn't have two other flights to FRA....

Also for next summer, the 75E fleet is being pretty well stretched out now that SEA-JFK is getting four round-trips on them a day. There's nowhere near enough slack to get another trip into Europe, especially considering that plane would have to get into DTW from somewhere just to do DTW-DUS.

Plus, Delta doesn't have any Europe nonstops out of DTW that it doesn't have out of JFK - I'd think you'd see JFK-DUS before DTW-DUS. As it's been noted, NW had to use DTW as their TATL gateway, hence why you saw DTW-BRU, DTW-DUS, etc. Delta has two much larger gateways to Europe that can support the operation.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 34):
I'd think you'd see JFK-DUS before DTW-DUS.

Unfortunately I don't see DL starting a DUS-JFK service in the near future. The NYC market is already well served by AB into JFK and LH going to EWR.

Although I personally would like to see a second DL tale in DUS, I think we all have to face the fact DL will focus on growth in another European market. Should they decide to increase service to Germany I would wager a bet they would do a second ATL flight.

Plus I'm still waiting for DL to finally start sending one of their "infamous" upgraded 767s to DUS. There have been so many threads about these upgrades yet DUS doesn't seem to be worthy of getting one. I wonder at times if they even exist or if they are just a a.net myth.   
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deltairlines
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 35):
Unfortunately I don't see DL starting a DUS-JFK service in the near future. The NYC market is already well served by AB into JFK and LH going to EWR.

Agree with this.

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 35):

Plus I'm still waiting for DL to finally start sending one of their "infamous" upgraded 767s to DUS. There have been so many threads about these upgrades yet DUS doesn't seem to be worthy of getting one. I wonder at times if they even exist or if they are just a a.net myth.

There aren't that many out there in the system yet and there are other markets that are more of a priority from a competitive business class offering. With LHR-JFK/BOS getting some 767-300s this winter and the recent push to get these planes into Paris, it doesn't help.

Plus with the 76Gs being based out of Atlanta (you'll rarely see them doing routes other than ATL flying), it makes sense to drop these planes into the DUS/STR/etc. markets that can't necessarily support 36 seats up front but do better with 30 seats (and likely will be getting the 76Z with 26J when it's all said and done).
 
burnsie28
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
You guys are funny....DTW-DUS over JFK-DUS. That would pretty much mean a complete 180 from Delta(which has been, as of late add from JFK to Europe.....and thats it.)

Except DL hasn't even done that, JFK-Europe has been declining, and with no signs of their economy getting better I can't imagine anything changing.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 37):
Except DL hasn't even done that, JFK-Europe has been declining, and with no signs of their economy getting better I can't imagine anything changing.

Well the strategy for now seems to be focus on getting passengers to Amsterdam and/or Paris and spread over Europe from there, with the major markets retaining direct service.

Given the load factors over the Atlantic during the winter and the fact that the European economy is still in shambles in many places, it's a strategy that makes sense to retrench to the core markets in winter when people aren't going on vacation to Europe.
 
vfw614
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:53 am

AA served ORD-DUS for many years, so a return now that oneworld - through AB - will provide significant feed at the German end makes sense. It is also a preemptive move as ORD would be a logical choice for Lufthansa should they decide to add another longhaul destination from DUS.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:03 am

with the uncertainty of whether AB stays in OW or defects to Skyteam i doubt that AA, especially in the present situation they are in themselves, would enter the ORD-DUS market.

With things going as they do right now, AB might well be reduced to feed CDG and AMS from a couple of German airports and VIE. In AF and or KL colors.

.OK, this may have been a bit too sarcastic, but instead of building up on their investment of joinging OW (which they likely can write off now) , an investor from the Gulf has bought enough shares to dictate the policy of AB without taking really financial responsibility for these decisions.

It would only be a favorable deal for AB if they could stay in OW and do some code shares with AFKLEY.

But that is almost ruled out since the Far east is cut-off by EY.
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brilondon
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):

Quoting DariusBieber (Thread starter):
Since Northwest is now Delta, I was wondering (hoping) if DTW-DUS would ever come back? DTW was such a better connecting airport than ATL is....

If Delta starts any new Germany routes it will be from JFK or ATL(BER)

You guys are funny....DTW-DUS over JFK-DUS. That would pretty much mean a complete 180 from Delta(which has been, as of late add from JFK to Europe.....and thats it.)

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
DTW-DUS Summer 2013 bring it on =)

won't happen.

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 5):
Perhaps a 757 as in the old NW days would be an option.

not likely. NW had its 75As with a pretty low Y config (144Y) and only 16C seats. This allowed them to fly FRA/DUS with 757s.

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 11):

I doubt youll see any new DL service to DUS. It is a StarAlliance hub.

and your point?

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 19):
Reference my other post and you have a winner.

oh no...not more Oneworld capacity to Europe. Sometimes I think they just enjoy losing money.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 23):
DUS? Nah. And DL has been cutting international routes like crazy.

not really. seasonal? sure.

Can't argue with what is said here with the EU being in such a mess economically with even Germany starting to feel the pinch, I don't foresee any growth to Europe until at least S2014.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Andie007
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:12 pm

There we go. It's AA who's coming back to DUS shortly...
 
vfw614
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:52 pm

According to airlineroute:

Chicago – Dusseldorf eff 11APR13
AA242/1 ORD1700 – 0815 DUS 1210 – 1420 ORD 763 D
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 43):
According to airlineroute:

Chicago – Dusseldorf eff 11APR13
AA242/1 ORD1700 – 0815 DUS 1210 – 1420 ORD 763 D

Well that's nice to learn DUS will be seeing a new int'l tail. Times are resonable and with help from AB connections this just may proof to be a winner for AA. So, who knows maybe some day DL will add another frequency.
A330 man.
 
DariusBieber
Topic Author
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:13 pm

The times of the AA flights from DUS are a lot more convenient than Delta's. In fact, I may switch going with AA rather than LH or DL, if it were not for their treatment of passengers.
Darius Bieber
 
mhkansan
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 31):
You will get your wish.  

Wow... You weren't kidding. Who are you and what do you know about the new AA livery!!?

""if it were not for their treatment of passengers.""

Its hit and miss with any airline. Fly with me and the folks I'm familiar with, we'll treat you right. Besides, the AA ORD crews are generally less dinosaur than DFW.

[Edited 2012-10-24 11:25:29]

[Edited 2012-10-24 11:25:58]
 
DariusBieber
Topic Author
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RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 46):
Its hit and miss with any airline. Fly with me and the folks I'm familiar with, we'll treat you right. Besides, the AA ORD crews are generally less dinosaur than DFW.

Ah that's good to know. Living in San Antonio, I always took routes through DFW and haven't been to ORD with AA in the recent past.
Darius Bieber
 
civetfive
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:44 am

RE: Will Delta Add More Destinations To DUS?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting civetfive (Reply 16):

and I eat my own words