doulasc
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Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:21 pm

We all know Pan Am wanted domestic routes in the pre-deregulation era but never got those except routes to Hawaii and Alaska.
Pan Am applied for certain international routes but went to other airlines. New York(JFK)-Mexico City nonstop-awarded to Eastern Airlines,Miami-London-awarded to National Airlines,In the late 1970s Atlanta-London opened up and Pan Am applied for it.The route was awarded to Delta instead. Now if Pan Am would have gotten ATL-London Pan Am would have used Heathrow-LHR.Delta got the route wasn't Delta required to use Gatwick at that time? Any other routes Pan Am applied for and got passed up you know of?
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:36 pm

Yes, DL was constrained by the treaties at that time, so they had to go ATL-LGW. Matter of fact, all the London routes that were awarded to DL were to LGW. I don't remember what year they were able to get their first LHR route.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:12 pm

DL (along with all other U.S. carriers except UA and AA) was not able to offer service to LHR until the advent of U.S.-E.U. Open Skies in 2008. The Bermuda II treaty originally limited U.S.-LHR services to BA, Pan Am, and TWA. Ultimately UA purchased the Pan Am LHR route authorities and AA did the same from TWA - right around the same time in the early 90s - while VS became a designated carrier under the bilateral as well. Bermuda II even specified which U.S. airports could serve as gateways to LHR, meaning that nonstop London services from some U.S. markets could only use LGW. I do not believe ATL was ever an approved LHR gateway, as BA traditionally served ATL from LGW. If that was the case, Pan Am would probably have had to use LGW or lobby the American and British governments to amend the bilateral prior to starting service.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:37 pm

This paragraph comes from the Delta Heritage Museum website......


http://www.deltamuseum.org/M_Educati...ltaHistory_Aircraft_Boeing_747.htm


"747s were also used on the Delta/Pan Am interchange, flying from Atlanta and Washington, DC (Dulles) over Pan Am's trans-Atlantic routes to London-Heathrow and Frankfurt on April 25, 1971. According to company magazine The Delta Digest, Ship 105 "caused something of a sensation when it first appeared in London and Frankfurt, on the Delta-Pan American Interchange…the first Delta 747 ever seen in Europe."


The interchange was first started in 1963 with DC-8s.

[Edited 2012-10-21 09:49:56]
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):

I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:


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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:

Actually, the interchange started in '63, with DC-8s. The 747s were put on the interchange, starting in '71.......7 years before the ATL-LGW service started.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:47 pm

JFK-MAN 3 weekly back in 1986/1987
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
We all know Pan Am wanted domestic routes in the pre-deregulation era but never got those except routes to Hawaii and Alaska.

PA didn't get everything they applied for in Trans-Pacific markets either. Unable right now to look up specifics, I know there was a big case before the CAB sometime in the 60s or 70s for new Pacific authority including Hawaii; Pan Am applied to begin service to SAN (definitely to HNL and possibly more) but was denied. The HNL-route ended up in the hands of WA and UA. There are some who look back on that decision and wonder what might have happened if SAN had been awarded PA service back then?

bb
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:58 pm

In the 60s and 70s only TWA and Pan Am could use LHR-Heathrow. Everyone else had to use LGW-Gatwick. When
National started Miami-London non stop in 1970 how did they avoid getting stuck at LGW and could use LHR?
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 6):
JFK-MAN 3 weekly back in 1986/1987

Remember the Pan Am booking office at the bottom of King St? Yet never any service, from what I recall.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):
Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
I was just about to mention that. DL may have gotten the route authority, but they operated it as a interchange with Pan Am giving them access to LHR. There are plenty of photos in the database of DL 747s at Heathrow:

Actually, the interchange started in '63, with DC-8s. The 747s were put on the interchange, starting in '71.......7 years before the ATL-LGW service started.

NW had a similar interchange operation with Pan Am for a while, which accounts for photos of NW aircraft at LHR. Routing MSP-DTW-BOS-LHR-AMS.


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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:49 pm

I also remember DL operating MIA-LGW, in '91 and I think they picked this route up in the PanAm deal.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
PA didn't get everything they applied for in Trans-Pacific markets either. Unable right now to look up specifics, I know there was a big case before the CAB sometime in the 60s or 70s for new Pacific authority including Hawaii; Pan Am applied to begin service to SAN (definitely to HNL and possibly more) but was denied. The HNL-route ended up in the hands of WA and UA. There are some who look back on that decision and wonder what might have happened if SAN had been awarded PA service back then?

Going back a little further, in 1957 Pan Am requested authority to stop in PDX and SEA en route to Tokyo, to compete with NW via the shorter "Great Circle" route via Alaska. The application was denied. At the time all Pan Am flights to Asia were via the much longer route via HNL.

[Edited 2012-10-21 14:00:08]
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 8):
In the 60s and 70s only TWA and Pan Am could use LHR-Heathrow. Everyone else had to use LGW-Gatwick. When
National started Miami-London non stop in 1970 how did they avoid getting stuck at LGW and could use LHR

The LHR PA and TWA LHR thing was with the Bermuda II which "Gatwicked" everything after 1977, there was a Bermuda I treaty which the UK "renounced " in 1975 or 76 because the US airlines were too powerful. National started flights to LHR because in 1970 or 71 that was the London Airport. National only flew Miami to London not a whole route system like PA or TW. With the Bermuda II National was grandfathered at LHR but if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.

Just like EA had the MIA-LGW route they flew leased DC-10's on, instead of their L-1011's due to range issues.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 14):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13): if another airline had gotten Miami to London other then PA ot would have flown to LGW.
Just like EA had the MIA-LGW route they flew leased DC-10's on, instead of their L-1011's due to range issues.

Eastern's route authority to London was totally separate from NA / PA's.

In 1970, National and BOAC began MIA-LHR nonstops. The CAB reserved the right to award MIA-London to another airline as a condition of the NA / PA merger, and had a full route case. Eastern went so far as to lease at least one 747-200 (I think from Qantas) that was painted in full hockey stick scheme, to prove to the CAB they had suitable equipment to fly to London. Ultimately, the CAB allowed PA to keep the ex-NA route, in part because PA would be allowed to serve LHR, but other airlines would have to serve LGW.

In the early 1980s, the US and UK agreed to allow a second airline from each country to fly to London, on the condition that both countries' airlines serve LGW. The UK awarded their authority to Laker, and the US initially awarded their authority to Air Florida. After Air Florida's collapse, the route was re awarded to Eastern.

In Dec 1989, Texas Air sold this route to American as part of the South American route sale. American would have been required to serve LGW. However, before the route was transferred, PA and TW sold most of their London routes. PA's MIA-LHR route (and DTW-LHR) were not included in the UA sale. However, UA subsequently signed a separate agreement to take over MIA-LHR temporarily. The CAB conditioned the transaction on UA serving LGW, with AA replacing PA / UA at LHR.

I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL

And Detroit-London went on to be passed to NW.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.
UA operated MIA-LHR on a temporary basis for a few months. PA took over the route again, moved it over to LGW (No longer having the right to fly to LHR) and eventually DL got it when they purchased Pan Am's transatlantic network. Here is a very short blurb from when Pan Am retook the route. I don't think UA ever operated scheduled flights to LGW, just some charters in the 80s.

[Edited 2012-10-21 17:43:02]
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
Eastern went so far as to lease at least one 747-200 (I think from Qantas) that was painted in full hockey stick scheme, to prove to the CAB they had suitable equipment to fly to London. Ultimately, the CAB allowed PA to keep the ex-NA route, in part because PA would be allowed to serve LHR, but other airlines would have to serve LGW.

Several photos of the QF 742 (VH-EBD) in Eastern livery here. It would have been N371EA had it gone to Eastern.
http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/vh-ebd/vhebd.html

They had arranged to obtain two QF 742s. The other was VH-EBC, due to become N372EA.
http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/vh-ebc/vhebc.html

Ironically, both aircraft later went to People Express and then Continental.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:52 am

And to clarify, the route authorities were between cities--not airports. The Bermuda treaties imposed the limits on which airlines could operate to which airports. For example, PA had authority to operate JFK to London--not JFK-LHR. When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 19):
When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.

I don't believe the JFK-LON authority was part of the sale with DL. UA purchased PA's Heathrow routes with the exception of the aforementioned Detroit and Miami. Delta purchased the rest of PA's transatlantic network including the FRA hub (except the inter-German services, which LH bought) and bought the JFK-LON rights from UA in 2006.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:00 am

I remember when the MIA-LGW route case came down to Air Florida and Delta, and of course Air Florida got it but I don't believe they ever flew it.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
I remember when the MIA-LGW route case came down to Air Florida and Delta, and of course Air Florida got it but I don't believe they ever flew it.

They operated it for several years. They got it in late 1980 and I believe operated the route up till they went bankrupt in 1984. According to this newspaper article it came down to Air Florida and World.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 19):
And to clarify, the route authorities were between cities--not airports. The Bermuda treaties imposed the limits on which airlines could operate to which airports. For example, PA had authority to operate JFK to London--not JFK-LHR. When DL bought PA's transatlantic network, that included JFK to London, but they operated it as JFK-LGW (before discontinuing it, I believe) because DL couldn't use LHR. JFK-LHR on DL metal only started in 2008 when OpenSkies went into effect.

You seem to be implying that DL somehow bought PA's rights JFK-London. I don't think that's correct as the JFK-London route was one of the 5 Pan Am routes sold to UA. How could PA sell the same route to two carriers?

My recollection is that DL bought the Detroit-London route from Pan Am (DTW wasn't part of the UA purchase) and of course had to operate to LGW since they weren't permitted to use LHR then.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
In Dec 1989, Texas Air sold this route to American as part of the South American route sale. American would have been required to serve LGW. However, before the route was transferred, PA and TW sold most of their London routes. PA's MIA-LHR route (and DTW-LHR) were not included in the UA sale. However, UA subsequently signed a separate agreement to take over MIA-LHR temporarily. The CAB conditioned the transaction on UA serving LGW, with AA replacing PA / UA at LHR.

I don't know whether UA ever served MIA-LGW; the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.

UA did fly MIA to LHR in the spring of 1991 before PA restarted the flights to LGW. AA flew Miami to LGW when it took over the Eastern operations at MIA, it flew to Gatwick for about 2 years. AA almost by accident got LHR because TWA didn't sell it them and Delta couldn't fly Miami to LHR since it operations were LGW based by the Bermuda II. AA got MIA to LHR for free, but did pay TWA dearly for ORD, JFK, LAX and Boston to LHR.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 2):
I do not believe ATL was ever an approved LHR gateway, as BA traditionally served ATL from LGW.

That's correct. ATL, DFW and IAH (and maybe some others) could not be flown from LHR until Open Skies. BA operated to all 3 from LGW and AA operated DFW-LGW

It is actually mind boggling that two countries which are so close politically, socially and economically had such a restrictive bilateral until just 4 years ago!

[Edited 2012-10-21 18:19:41]
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:38 am

PIT-LGW was another route PA applied for. They were beat out by either CVG-LGW (DL) or RDU-LGW (AA)
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 25):
That's correct. ATL, DFW and IAH (and maybe some others) could not be flown from LHR until Open Skies. BA operated to all 3 from LGW and AA operated DFW-LGW

BA had an IAH - DTW - LHR and then IAH - ORD - LHR routing in order to get around the requirement IAH serve LGW.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
You seem to be implying that DL somehow bought PA's rights JFK-London.

IIRC, DL never DID have rights to LHR, from anywhere, until Open Skies. They were restricted to LGW by the previous treaty. The only way anyone would see a DL DC-8 or 747 at LHR was the PanAm interchange where the flight went MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR.

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
According to this newspaper article it came down to Air Florida and World.

Well, maybe DL wasn't as close to getting it as I thought, but hey did apply for it.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.

Just remembered PanAm operating this with A310 aircraft in the early 90's or was it late 80's, cant remember now...but from todays perspective of 'connectivity' to routes, this was a wierd one for sure. I think they flew that and maybe 3 daily 727's to JFK at the time?
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:12 am

Because of the number of comments here; I may be repeating myself. Nevertheless, Pan Am applied to fly DFW-LHR. In December 1977 I was at the home of a friend who was a Pan Am pilot. He lived north of Dallas, but commuted to LAX where he was based. He told me that both Pan Am and Braniff applied for the route. The CAB recommended it goes to Pan Am but President Carter awarded it to Braniff.
My friend was naturally disappointed in Carter's decision. Pan Am had the airplanes to fly the route, and they could have started the next day. And because they were already established at LHR, they would fly into LHR.
Braniff, would need to order additional 747's something that would not come for another 3 months. And because they had not flown into London, they would need to fly into LGW. When Braniff suspended their operations in 1982, naturally the route went to AA. They still were required to fly into LGW as well as from RDU, but now all flights go into LHR. Too bad Pan Am didn't get the DFW-LHR flight; I would have loved to fly with my friend as captain.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting triple7man (Reply 30):
Because of the number of comments here; I may be repeating myself. Nevertheless, Pan Am applied to fly DFW-LHR. In December 1977 I was at the home of a friend who was a Pan Am pilot. He lived north of Dallas, but commuted to LAX where he was based. He told me that both Pan Am and Braniff applied for the route. The CAB recommended it goes to Pan Am but President Carter awarded it to Braniff.
My friend was naturally disappointed in Carter's decision. Pan Am had the airplanes to fly the route, and they could have started the next day. And because they were already established at LHR, they would fly into LHR.
Braniff, would need to order additional 747's something that would not come for another 3 months. And because they had not flown into London, they would need to fly into LGW. When Braniff suspended their operations in 1982, naturally the route went to AA. They still were required to fly into LGW as well as from RDU, but now all flights go into LHR. Too bad Pan Am didn't get the DFW-LHR flight; I would have loved to fly with my friend as captain.

PAN AM would have been Gatwicked too, no matter they flew to LHR from six other cities at the time. DFW was not a LHR designated city. Remember when PA flew Houston to London, they were Gatwicked there too, this was the early 1980's also.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 29):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
the route (and Detroit-London) subsequently passed to DL as part of Pan Am's transatlantic route sale.

Just remembered PanAm operating this with A310 aircraft in the early 90's or was it late 80's, cant remember now...but from todays perspective of 'connectivity' to routes, this was a wierd one for sure. I think they flew that and maybe 3 daily 727's to JFK at the time?

It is not wierd given the amount of Detroit - Europe traffic generated by Ford, General Motors, and their suppliers. This traffic was historically not large enough to profitably fill a 747 or L-1011 on a year round basis (especially because PA had to share the traffic with BA, SN, and (briefly) AZ), but it was large enough to fill an A310.

Pan Am had a very long presence in Detroit. They began service there in 1954, and were the first airline to serve DTW (other airlines at that time served Detroit through Willow Run). Chicago was served as a tag on DTW - Europe initially, before the two cities' flights were separated, at which time DTW was served as a tag on BOS flights in the winter, with nonstops to LHR off and on in the summer.

PA lost the rights to serve ORD-LHR in 1975, at the same time TWA lost their DTW-LHR authority. After Bermuda II, PA also lost their BOS-LHR authority, and switched DTW to a tag on IAD / JFK - LHR flights. Depending on the year, these flights were operated with 747-100s, L-1011-500s, and 747SPs.

As mentioned above, when PA took delivery of their A310-300s, they finally had an aircraft small enough to once again profitably fly DTW-LHR on a nonstop basis. PA also flew LHR-JFK-DTW on a change of gauge basis; it isn't widely remembered that PA 103's routing was FRA-LHR-JFK-DTW, with JFK-DTW flown with 727-200s.
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Viscount724
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 32):
it isn't widely remembered that PA 103's routing was FRA-LHR-JFK-DTW, with JFK-DTW flown with 727-200s.

FRA-LHR was also a 727-200.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 32):

Great info on this! THANK YOU
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 29):
Just remembered PanAm operating this with A310 aircraft in the early 90's or was it late 80's, cant remember now...but from todays perspective of 'connectivity' to routes, this was a wierd one for sure. I think they flew that and maybe 3 daily 727's to JFK at the time?

I worked the DL flight (DTW-LGW) as a NYC based reserve in 1994. I can't remember how long after that DL sold it to NW.
We also had IAD-FRA at that time, which I also had to work (L-1011-500). I thought both routes were a little odd since we didn't have hubs in IAD or DTW. Of course, we had a pretty big operation in FRA.
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Josh32121
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 20):
I don't believe the JFK-LON authority was part of the sale with DL. UA purchased PA's Heathrow routes with the exception of the aforementioned Detroit and Miami.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
You seem to be implying that DL somehow bought PA's rights JFK-London. I don't think that's correct as the JFK-London route was one of the 5 Pan Am routes sold to UA.

Yes, y'all are correct. I forgot they bought them from UA afterward. The point remains the same, though. DL ended up with an authority to fly JFK-LON, but they couldn't fly it to LHR because they didn't also buy PA's and then UA's right to fly into that airport. Even though NYC-LON wasn't a "Gatwicked" city pair on its own, it was LGW-ed until Open Skies because DL couldn't operate to LHR.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
FRA-LHR was also a 727-200.
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 36):
Yes, y'all are correct. I forgot they bought them from UA afterward. The point remains the same, though. DL ended up with an authority to fly JFK-LON, but they couldn't fly it to LHR because they didn't also buy PA's and then UA's right to fly into that airport. Even though NYC-LON wasn't a "Gatwicked" city pair on its own, it was LGW-ed until Open Skies because DL couldn't operate to LHR.

I was thinking that DL got the original LHR slots from AF, giving them the right to fly the route.....???

[Edited 2012-10-22 21:15:58]
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
I was thinking that DL got the original LHR slots from AF, giving them the right to fly the route.....???

Delta's original LHR slots were from KLM and AF, the slots they were given allowed for 2 daily JFK to LHR flights but one was a day flight with the other the traditional evening departure. Now they have 3 daily flight to LHR from JFK all evening departures. Delta also flies to LHR from DTW, MSP and ATL.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 36):

Yes, y'all are correct. I forgot they bought them from UA afterward. The point remains the same, though. DL ended up with an authority to fly JFK-LON, but they couldn't fly it to LHR because they didn't also buy PA's and then UA's right to fly into that airport. Even though NYC-LON wasn't a "Gatwicked" city pair on its own, it was LGW-ed until Open Skies because DL couldn't operate to LHR.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 38):
Quoting mayor (Reply 37):I was thinking that DL got the original LHR slots from AF, giving them the right to fly the route.....???
Delta's original LHR slots were from KLM and AF, the slots they were given allowed for 2 daily JFK to LHR flights but one was a day flight with the other the traditional evening departure. Now they have 3 daily flight to LHR from JFK all evening departures. Delta also flies to LHR from DTW, MSP and ATL.

That's what I thought. I don't believe that DL ever flew JFK-LGW......the PanAm acquistion had nothing to do with it and it was all predicated on getting the LHR slots from AF/KL.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 39):


That's what I thought. I don't believe that DL ever flew JFK-LGW

They didn't as part of the Pan Am TATL deal. They did buy the NYC-LON authority from UA and did operate JFK-LGW until they secured LHR access when open skies came about.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 40):
Quoting mayor (Reply 39):


That's what I thought. I don't believe that DL ever flew JFK-LGW

They didn't as part of the Pan Am TATL deal. They did buy the NYC-LON authority from UA and did operate JFK-LGW until they secured LHR access when open skies came about.

DL started JFK-LGW service on November 15, 2006 and moved to LHR on March 29, 2008 after Open Skies.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
That's what I thought. I don't believe that DL ever flew JFK-LGW

They didn't as part of the Pan Am TATL deal. They did buy the NYC-LON authority from UA and did operate JFK-LGW until they secured LHR access when open skies came about.
DL started JFK-LGW service on November 15, 2006 and moved to LHR on March 29, 2008 after Open Skies.

I have always been surprised Delta never applied for JFK to LGW, since its such a huge route. It was a hole in DL's JFK route map from November 1, 1991 to 11/15/2006, that is 15 years. Today LHR is DL's biggest JFK European destination with 3 764 flights daily.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
They operated it for several years. They got it in late 1980 and I believe operated the route up till they went bankrupt in 1984. According to this newspaper article it came down to Air Florida and World.

Didn't Air Florida have it's own (wet lease) DC-10's for this run?

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/6/6/0223665.jpg

[Edited 2012-10-23 18:11:40]
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
PIT-LGW was another route PA applied for. They were beat out by either CVG-LGW (DL) or RDU-LGW (AA)

I thought BA beat them out directly tho. TW used to fly PIT-LGW I think before 1980, but I think you knew that already.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 44):

I thought BA beat them out directly tho.

BA started in 1985, but this was a one stop flight to LHR. PA applied for nonstop LGW service in 1986 (LGW because PIT was not a nonstop LHR gateway under Bermuda II)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...pplies+for+pittsburgh+london&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...pplies+for+pittsburgh+london&hl=en
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 44):
Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):
PIT-LGW was another route PA applied for. They were beat out by either CVG-LGW (DL) or RDU-LGW (AA)

I thought BA beat them out directly tho. TW used to fly PIT-LGW I think before 1980, but I think you knew that already.

TWA seriously considered PIT-LGW in 1979, but never operated the route because of the runup in oil prices and the recession. USAir also seriously considered PIT-LGW in the mid 1980s, but the costs of purchasing widebodied aircraft and setting up a field sales operation in Europe scared USAir's then-management off until after the US/PI merger.

STL-HNL was another route TWA planned to start in 1979 (using AA's dormant authority in the market) that was not flown. TWA management said the break even load factor on STL-HNL, using 707s, would have been > 95%. TWA did eventually fly STL-HNL; I think the route was finally added in 1985 / 86.
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 46):
TWA seriously considered PIT-LGW in 1979, but never operated the route because of the runup in oil prices and the recession

TWA did in fact operate PIT-LGW, 3x weekly nonstop with L-1011s; the other days of the week it operated to LHR via PHL.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...dq=pittsburgh+london+flights&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...dq=pittsburgh+london+flights&hl=en

They applied for the route as early as 1969:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...512&dq=twa+pittsburgh+london&hl=en

Not long after flights began, TWA requested the route authority be moved to STL to support its developing hub there.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 46):
USAir also seriously considered PIT-LGW in the mid 1980s, but the costs of purchasing widebodied aircraft and setting up a field sales operation in Europe scared USAir's then-management off until after the US/PI merger.

Unfortunately for them, the delay in applying for PIT-London service until the early nineties meant that by then even Gatwick was not attainable. They eventually settled for applying for PIT-STN and MAN:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...15&dq=usair+applies+stansted&hl=en

[Edited 2012-10-24 12:23:09]
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Josh32121
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
I was thinking that DL got the original LHR slots from AF, giving them the right to fly the route.....???

The route authorities were between cities--not airports. DL bought NYC-LON from UA--not JFK-LHR. UA was able to fly JFK-LHR because they had bought PA's rights to fly to LHR they had under Bermuda II and presumably the LHR landing slots to go with them. DL didn't buy the LHR slots from UA with the route authority because at the time, they wouldn't have been able to use them anyway.

After Open Skies, all that went out the window. Any airline could fly from any U.S. city to London (subject to U.S. government approval, I assume), but they couldn't land at LHR if they didn't have a slot. AA and UA still had a boatload of LHR slots (acquired from TW and PA, respectively) compared to CO, DL, and US. The latter airlines had to get LHR slots either by buying from someone else or making arrangements with alliance partners (as DL did with AF-KL).

With that, I truly don't understand how PA could have applied for DFW-LHR unless there was some way they could also have modified Bermuda II to add Dallas/Fort Worth (the cities--not the airport) to the list of cities from which London-bound flights could originate.
 
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RE: Routes Pan Am Applied For But Never Got.

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting EXMEMWIDGET (Reply 43):
Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
They operated it for several years. They got it in late 1980 and I believe operated the route up till they went bankrupt in 1984. According to this newspaper article it came down to Air Florida and World.

Didn't Air Florida have it's own (wet lease) DC-10's for this run?

Air Florida operated 5 leased DC-10-30s in the early 1980s (not more than 4 at the same time).


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April 1982 route map. Before their demise in 1984 I think they'd dropped all the Europe destinations except LGW.

http://www.departedflights.com/QH042582r.jpg

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