mffoda
Topic Author
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:21 pm

I was reading a interesting piece over on Aspire Aviation's website about the 787-10 (link below). They claim that Singapore Airlines is negotiating to be the launch customer as early as November, and that BA is in advanced discussions for 60 as well. It would certainly be nice to see the 787's orders in the black for this year.

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2012/1...7-10x-launch-implications-on-777x/
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
kaitak
Posts: 9033
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:27 pm

It wouldn't surprise me; however, I wonder where LH and QF will figure in the list of customers. Both (particularly LH) were strongly rumoured to be interested.

BA doesn't really surprise me (although the number does!), because its already a 788 and 789 customer.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:34 pm

I could very easily see SQ converting their 787-9 order to the 787-10X and then adding to it. They have the A350-900 on order for long-haul missions, so the 787-10X would work great around Asia and Australia as an A330-300 and 777-300 replacement.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:49 pm

From the link in OP:
Boeing Claim
In a presentation this May, Boeing Capital Corporation (BCC) managing director (MD) aircraft programmes and evaluations Brad Till puts the 787-10X as having an around 4% lower relative trip cost and an around 8% lower relative seat-mile cost than the 299-seat Airbus A350-900 on a 6,000nm mission.

Airbus Claim
Airbus has long contested the cost saving brought by the carbon-composite 787 Dreamliner, with its chief operating officer (COO) customers John Leahy claiming the cash operating cost (COC) per seat of a 300-seat A330-300 is 17% lower than the 777-200ER and is only 1% and 6% higher than the 787-8 and -9, respectively. The direct operating cost (DOC) of an A330-300, Airbus asserts, is 10% lower than both the 777-200ER and 787-8, whereas the 787-9′s DOC is 4% higher than that of an A330-300.
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5068
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 3):
whereas the 787-9%u2032s DOC is 4% higher than that of an A330-300.

In my view any cost comparisons involving the 787 series are speculative at the best. Any airline worth it's salt does not need a A or B hustler to tell it it's business.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 4):
In my view any cost comparisons involving the 787 series are speculative at the best.

What about NH, JL, AI, UA, and ET?
 
seahawks7757
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:54 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:55 pm

IIRC Air New Zealand was going to be the launch customer for the 787-10. Though I may be wrong and times change.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting seahawks7757 (Reply 6):
IIRC Air New Zealand was going to be the launch customer for the 787-10. Though I may be wrong and times change.

Air New Zealand is the launch customer for the 787-9 and they will be the first operator of the model.
 
seahawks7757
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:54 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Air New Zealand is the launch customer for the 787-9 and they will be the first operator of the model.

Oh yes, that was it!
 
trex8
Posts: 4662
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:52 pm

I'm pretty sure BA has said in last few years they don't want to be a launch customer for anything though maybe a variant is different.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 9):
I'm pretty sure BA has said in last few years they don't want to be a launch customer for anything though maybe a variant is different.

As a 787-8 and 787-9 customer, that's kind of a moot point, now.  
 
AngMoh
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
I could very easily see SQ converting their 787-9 order to the 787-10X and then adding to it. They have the A350-900 on order for long-haul missions, so the 787-10X would work great around Asia and Australia as an A330-300 and 777-300 replacement.

There was a front page article yesterday here in the newspapers stating that SQ is halting recruitment of pilots due to delays / postponements of deliveries of A350s and 787s. That would line up with conversion of the 787-9 to 787-10 order, also because the 787s are going to replace A333s and those only need to be replaced from about 2017 onwards.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 762 772 773 77W A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5068
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
What about NH, JL, AI, UA, and ET?

I find it hard to believe there is suffcient data accumulated thus far that could be extrapolated out to be useful. Anyway I believe Leahy's assertions predate the 788 EIS.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 4070
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
What about NH, JL, AI, UA, and ET?

If Boeing gives the green light on the 7810, which it looks like they will, what would that mean for UA's A350 order? UA has a substantial 788 order and a modest 789 order, so it seems like a no brainer to go for the plane in the same family instead of ordering a completely new type. As a UA and Boeing fanboy, I hope that this turns true.

Also, would the 7810 start the beginning of the end of the 777?
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
qf002
Posts: 3125
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 14):
If Boeing gives the green light on the 7810, which it looks like they will, what would that mean for UA's A350 order? UA has a substantial 788 order and a modest 789 order, so it seems like a no brainer to go for the plane in the same family instead of ordering a completely new type.

Unlikely. The 787-10X won't have the long range capability of the A359, and UA needs a proper long haul aircraft that is larger than the 789.
 
ZuluAlpha
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:22 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I wonder where LH and QF will figure in the list of customers

I don't think QF will be as high in the list now, with the unfortunate cancellation of their firm 789 orders .. and with QF only having options post 2016
Flown on:_CRJ, CR7 D10 DHT DH8, DH2, DH3, DH4, EMB, E45, E75, E90, F28 J32 M80 SH6 320, 32B, 332, 333, 380, 717, 732, 733, 734, 73H, 743, 744, 752 762, 763, 772, 77W
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1609
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 14):
If Boeing gives the green light on the 7810, which it looks like they will, what would that mean for UA's A350 order?

Nothing. UA ordered A350s to replace their 747s.
The 787-10 could, however, be used in the future to replace some of their 777-200s and -200ERs, used on transatlantic routes, if necessary.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
qf002
Posts: 3125
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 15):
I don't think QF will be as high in the list now, with the unfortunate cancellation of their firm 789 orders .. and with QF only having options post 2016

If anything, I'd have thought QF would convert 789 options to the -10X for delivery early next decade to replace some of the A333s and regionally flying 744s. All up, I don't think they're likely to take more than 20-25 aircraft...

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 16):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 14):
If Boeing gives the green light on the 7810, which it looks like they will, what would that mean for UA's A350 order?

The system appears to be screwing up again -- not my quote...
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:59 am

I see the 787-10 as setting a new benchmark in terms of CASM and flexibility that genuinely deserves the much abused "game changer" tag. This one aircraft can literally replace all 772 models and all 330 models and do a better job (in most cases) than the proposed 777-8X. It (787-10) will be so good that it threatens to kill the 777-8X before it even gets of the paper (computer screen). Not only that, it undoubtedly has the best business case of all 787's and will produce a handsome return on investment for Boeing.

I'm comfortable to stick my neck out and suggest that the 787-10 will easily sell more than 1000 frames (subject to slot availibility) and could possibly even eclipse sales of the 788 and 789 - happy to be challenged on that one.

I also suspect that the success of the 787-10 will give Airbus no choice but to respond with a similar type of aircraft once the base 350 models are in service - most likely a 35J at 359 gross weights with similar range to the 787-10.

This is all crystal ball stuff but hey - that's what A.net is about.


Regards,
StickShaker
 
vaus77w
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:05 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 15):
I don't think QF will be as high in the list now, with the unfortunate cancellation of their firm 789 orders .. and with QF only having options post 2016
Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):
If anything, I'd have thought QF would convert 789 options to the -10X for delivery early next decade to replace some of the A333s and regionally flying 744s. All up, I don't think they're likely to take more than 20-25 aircraft...

Yeah I think so too. The A333s will need replacing early next decade and the 787-10 would be perfect, especially for flights to Asia, NZ and East to West coast flights.
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 9):
I'm pretty sure BA has said in last few years they don't want to be a launch customer for anything though maybe a variant is different.

I recall BA saying when ordering 788s and 789s that they wanted all their widebodies to be capable of flying all thier routes (which the 767 could not). The article suggests the 7810 can do this.

The suggestion that the 788 and 789s would be passed to IB also makes sense - Madrid has capacity to support additional thin long haul flights whereas LHR does not.

Will Airbus respond with a simple stretch A359 which would have excellent CASM although be bigger than the 7810?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting mffoda (Thread starter):
I was reading a interesting piece over on Aspire Aviation's website about the 787-10 (link below).

if their previous history of such announcements were taken into account, it would likely be wrong. Keep copies of the article, they tend to change the text without annotating edits.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
flightsimer
Posts: 911
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 14):

Yes, but we all know that the A350's are slated to replace 747s. Capacity wise, it's not a close replacement IMO. However a 777-8/-9 frame would be much closer to the 747 capacity wise while giving them the latest in twin technology.

Now another key thing that favors the 777 is that it shares a common type rating with the 787. Why introduce another new type (A350) when you can get another that shares commonality with the 787. If they were planning on using other airbus aircraft I could see them keeping the A350, but all apparent clues to me are saying they are moving towards an all Boeing Fleet.
Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:11 pm

Although it might make sense for UA to go with the 787-10 instead of the 359, the 787-10 isn't going to be able to reliably service the routes flown by the 744's. This would include SFO - HKG and ORD - HKG along with SFO and LAX to SYD and/or MEL.

The 787-10 would have to take what would likely be significant weight penalties, especially west-bound to fly those routes. The alternative would be to fly the 789 which won't be able to fly as many folks or cargo. To top it off, they would forfeit some serious $$ to Airbus on the cancellation.

I would think UA has the flexibility in their contract with Boeing (sCO and sUA) to convert some/all of the options to any of the 787 types. They have 50 options between the two orders so can certainly exercise them to get the 787-10. Given the age of the sUA 772's, that would seem to make sense.

I remember reading that UA didn't shut down the possibility of a VLA order such as the 748. A lot depends on how the world economy recovers and which international routes are most profitable. An order for the 777-9X would make sense in the future but I don't see them doing that for a while given the 359 order.

[Edited 2012-10-23 09:14:10]
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 20):
Will Airbus respond with a simple stretch A359 which would have excellent CASM although be bigger than the 7810?

I think that was the original 3510. The one before the uprated engine variant.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 24):
I think that was the original 3510. The one before the uprated engine variant.

  

The A350-1000 always had a wing chord extension, a slightly different Trent XWB, and triple bogie landing gear instead of twin..

Rgds
 
qf002
Posts: 3125
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 22):

I was just responding to the suggestion that the 787-10 could replace the role of the A359 in UA's fleet, which is ludicrous.

That said, I don't think we're likely to see the airline shift away from the A350 (simply because I think the plane will work so well for them). I don't think it's completely inconceivable that we could see 777-X's joining the fleet down the track though, but only alongside A350s.

The commonality you refer to allows UA massive flexibility in purchasing a wider range of aircraft than they have today to better match capacity, while still remaining within two type ratings. I think this is far more valuable to them than moving to a single international type rating, given the breadth and size of their operation.
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:26 pm

I think this announcement concludes this thread!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...0s-transfers-787s-to-scoot-378005/
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 27):
I think this announcement concludes this thread!

Not necessarily.

SQ still has new A330-300s coming in on lease, so they don't need the 787-9 right now. Sending them to Scoot gives that carrier an economic advantage over competitors operating older equipment.

With the 787-10X not expected to EIS until the end of the decade, that should track nicely with SQ A330-300 replacements.

Unless SQ plans to "abuse" the A350-900 on regional routes as they did the 777-200ER in the past. But is that an effective strategy - especially if SQ's competition deploys 787-10s against them on regional routes?

So I believe this latest move by SQ raises this rumors credibility, not diminishes it.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3802
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
With the 787-10X not expected to EIS until the end of the decade, that should track nicely with SQ A330-300 replacements.

I guess you could very well be right with this analysis. It is premature to dismiss the B787-10 for SQ or any other customer. Especially at this stage where no formal launch has been announced yet.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9033
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:00 pm

A good day for Airbus!

I'm actually surprised at the A380 top up; I had thought that when they announced their last A380 delivery, a few months ago, it was said that there would be no more. Perhaps I misinterpreted it (clearly, now, I did!)

The article (from Flight) says that no particular model has been cited by Scoot, but it's hard to think they'll order anything other than -9s.

Forty A350s is quite a commitment and from the bluest of blue chip carriers, that's a very big boost. Hard to imagine that some of these won't be converted to -1000s.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 5059
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:11 pm

The 787 is a particular challenge for SQ because they are so focused on a premium economy model. 9Y economy configurations in the 787 won't work for SQ. I find it unsurprising that they seem more focused on the A350, because I think a 9Y A350 is probably more attractive to carriers than an 8Y 787, even the 787-10.

With that in mind, transferring the 787 order to Scoot and ordering more A350s for SQ makes perfect sense to me. I'd be surprised to see the 787-10 in the SQ fleet.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:26 pm

Can an 8-abreast Y 787-10 compete with a 9-abreast Y A359 on routes less than 6900nm? Probably not, so that is why SQ chose more A359s rather than the 787-10.

Could SQ be an all-Airbus fleet in 10 years after the 777-300ERs leave the fleet?
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3802
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
The 787 is a particular challenge for SQ because they are so focused on a premium economy model. 9Y economy configurations in the 787 won't work for SQ. I find it unsurprising that they seem more focused on the A350, because I think a 9Y A350 is probably more attractive to carriers than an 8Y 787, even the 787-10.

In that area SQ and CX seem to be applying the same standards. Which is quite telling and makes the couple of inches or centimeters it offers more in width seems to making a difference.  .
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
I find it unsurprising that they seem more focused on the A350, because I think a 9Y A350 is probably more attractive to carriers than an 8Y 787, even the 787-10.

On a CASM basis, of course it will be more attractive.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
In that area SQ and CX seem to be applying the same standards. Which is quite telling and makes the couple of inches or centimeters it offers more in width seems to making a difference.  

Except it isn't inches or centimeters. It's 7.6 millimeters.

Again, I think people are putting way too much emphasis on this "comfort issue". If those extra millimeters per seat was so much of a competitive advantage, you'd expect Boeing would have lost most of their 787 orders - if they'd even secured them in the first place once Airbus announced the A350XWB six years ago.

I don't know how accurate SeatGuru's information is for CX, but the A330 and (especially) 777 could offer wider seating than the A350 (about as much on the A330 as the A350 offers on the 787 and a full inch less on the 777). This should favor the 747-8 as their VLA, since it would be as "right/tight" at 3+4+3 as the A350 at 3+3+3. If they went with the A380, that would offer a fairly wider seat and would break that "bum commonality".  
Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 32):
Probably not, so that is why SQ chose more A359s rather than the 787-10.
SQ cannot yet order the 787-10X because it's not yet received formal Authority to Offer. Then again, for all we know SQ has agreed to launch the model once the Boeing Board does grant ATO.

I believe at the time they placed the order SQ stated the 787-9 was going to be used on regional missions as it offered similar size to the A330-300 (they have effectively the same cabin floor area).

But maybe SQ feels that "abusing" planes is a better strategic option and that the DOW and fuel-burn penalty of operating the A350-900 regionally instead of the 787-9 (to say nothing of the 787-10) is worth it to have flexibility.

[Edited 2012-10-24 09:54:02]
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3802
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Except it isn't inches or centimeters. It's 7.6 millimeters.

Per seat you are correct. I was referring to the fuselage width.  .
 
kaitak
Posts: 9033
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:21 pm

If we compare the fleet as it is at the moment - 102 aircraft and take that some ten years down the road, what kind of mainline fleet will we be looking at?

Here's what we can state fairly clearly:

24 A380-800 (incl. 5 ordered today)
27 777-300ER
40 A350 (delivery in progress)
19 A330-300 (being wound down, as A350s added, but I've just put the current fleet size in)

110 Total

There are currently 8 773s, which are gradually being wound down; the figure of 27 77Ws mentioned above includes the 8 aircraft on order, so it may be that they'll replace the standard 773s (?).

The 787-10 may well work as a 330 replacement, but perhaps a better solution might be a regional version of the A359, with a lower MTOW?

Of course, it's hard to predict with absolute certainty, but I'd be very surprised if the A389 had not been launched by then. Looking down the road, the airline will also be looking at a potential 77W replacement, with the 777-9X pitted against the A350-1000. I would be very surprised if the A3510 didn't figure in the SIA fleet in some way, but even still, I could see the 777-9X being of strong interest to the airline.

As much as I respect Airbus, they have a history of under-performing when it comes to long haul aircraft (A346, for example) and the A350-1000, as it currently stands, may be a fine aircraft, but even now, it seems to manage - just about - to be on par with the existing 77W; SIA will want the 77W replacement to be a step up, which would seem to be beyond the A3510 ... therefore, the 777-9X would seem to have the 77W replacement market to itself (which given the number of 77Ws now in service, will be quite big) ... what does Airbus have that could come anywhere close?
 
TP313
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
as it currently stands, may be a fine aircraft, but even now, it seems to manage - just about - to be on par with the existing 77W

Should this be true, then there will be no 777-9X. Not only that, but there would be no need for even a simple "777-300ER-MAX" re-engine.

But we already know what Cathay Pacific thinks about that...

[Edited 2012-10-24 10:34:57]
 
kaitak
Posts: 9033
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 37):
Should this be true, then there will be no 777-9X. Not only that, but there would be no need for even a simple
"777-300ER-MAX" re-engine.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand. The 777-9X is meant to be a re-engined, longer (physically) and longer range aircraft,so it will be significantly bigger than the A350-1000. I don't really get your point. Can you please clarify?

I don't think CX's choice of the A350-1000 necessarily precludes a 777-9X order in the future.
 
TP313
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 38):
Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand. The 777-9X is meant to be a re-engined, longer (physically) and longer range aircraft,so it will be significantly bigger than the A350-1000. I don't really get your point. Can you please clarify?

I don't think CX's choice of the A350-1000 necessarily precludes a 777-9X order in the future.

Well, why should Boeing spend above $5 Billion dollars, when their current offer in that segment will manage to be already on par with the 350-1000?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
The 787-10 may well work as a 330 replacement, but perhaps a better solution might be a regional version of the A359, with a lower MTOW?

Airbus floated such an idea back in 2008 - the A350-900 "Regional" would have had an MTOW of 238t (-30t).

The issue with that, however, is that the structure wouldn't change, so it would still have the same DOW as the 268t model. I don't know how SQ's A330-300's compare to SQ's 777-200ERs on fuel burn for a regional mission, but for CX, their A333s burn almost 1 ton less per hour than their 777-200s. On a 4000nm mission, the A333 burns 4 tons less than a 772 does on a 3800nm mission.

An A330-300 has an OEM OEW 16t lower than the 777-200 and 18t lower than the 777-200ER. If Aspire Aviation's figures are correct, the 787-10 with a 323-seat Boeing OEM three-class cabin will have a similar weight as the A350-900 with no cabin fittings. The 787-10 also has a higher MZFW than the A350-900 and there was no mention that the MZFW for the "A350 Regional" would have risen.

So the "A350-900 Regional" would have lower landing and navigation fees, but could weigh greater than 10% more empty in customer configuration and would seat 18 less in Economy and 6 fewer LD3 positions.

SQ did de-rate the MTOW and thrust of their regional 777-200ERs compared to their long-haul 777-200ERs, so by adding as many A350-900s as they had 787-9s, SQ may very well be following the same process and accepting higher trip costs for better flexibility.

But at the moment, I think it's a strategic move to support a large expansion of TZ and giving them an immediate edge by having the most efficient plane on the market at that time.



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 35):
Per seat you are correct. I was referring to the fuselage width.  .

Fair enough, but really, I don't think it makes nearly as much of a difference as people like to proclaim (especially people who haven't flown either, much less both).

A 747 fuselage is .68 meters wider than a 777 - that's almost seven times the .1m difference between the A350 and 787. And yet I don't recall people proclaiming that 3-4-3 on a 747 is amazingly more comfortable than 3-4-3 on the 777 and airlines certainly are not snapping up 747-8s to replace their 777-300ERs even though the 747-8 is wider in the fuselage.

I would posit that if one flew 12 hours at 3-4-3 in a 777 with 35" pitch vs. 3-3-3 with 32" pitch, most would say the 10-abreast 777 was a more comfortable experience.

[Edited 2012-10-24 11:32:33]
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 5059
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Again, I think people are putting way too much emphasis on this "comfort issue".

For most airlines, I would agree. But SQ has made a big, big deal of having the widest seats in Economy, and we've seen claims that CX ruled out the 787 exactly because it couldn't accommodate 18" seats at 9Y. I think for those two airlines in particular the 787 is at a disadvantage.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
I would posit that if one flew 12 hours at 3-4-3 in a 777 with 35" pitch vs. 3-3-3 with 32" pitch, most would say the 10-abreast 777 was a more comfortable experience.

Honestly, as someone who's not that tall but has broad shoulders, I'd have to disagree. I can deal with 17.2", but 18" seats are noticeably more comfortable for me, with less bumping of neighbors' shoulders.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
With that in mind, transferring the 787 order to Scoot and ordering more A350s for SQ makes perfect sense to me.

That's a place I've arrived at also

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Again, I think people are putting way too much emphasis on this "comfort issue".

I think it doesn't really matter too much what emphasis "people" put on it. It's the emphasis the "airlines in question" put on it that matters in the end.
And SQ, along with CX, seem to be airlines to whom the extra 5 or 6 inches of cabin width makes the difference in the positioning of their offering.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
But SQ has made a big, big deal of having the widest seats in Economy, and we've seen claims that CX ruled out the 787 exactly because it couldn't accommodate 18" seats at 9Y. I think for those two airlines in particular the 787 is at a disadvantage.

Agree.
For many other airlines, the cost per seat advantage of 9-abreast in the 787 is obviously more the space they're in.
But for CX and SQ.....

Rgds
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
But SQ has made a big, big deal of having the widest seats in Economy, and we've seen claims that CX ruled out the 787 exactly because it couldn't accommodate 18" seats at 9Y.

But you can't fit 18" seats in an A350-900, either, unless you shrink the aisles to 16 inches. And if you do that, you're going to increase turn times (longer to load and unload due to higher aisle congestion) and you may have to go with special service carts.



Quoting astuteman (Reply 42):
I think it doesn't really matter too much what emphasis "people" put on it. It's the emphasis the "airlines in question" put on it that matters in the end.

And SQ, along with CX, seem to be airlines to whom the extra 5 or 6 inches of cabin width makes the difference in the positioning of their offering.

Assuming that is the reason for the order.

I cannot dismiss the idea out of hand, for SQ could subsequently announce they decided on the A350-900 as their only medium-sized twin because it's wider.

However, that seems to me to be the least likely reason for them to have done so. They ordered the 787-9 after the A350-900, so they knew how their product was going to fit into it and what kind of dimensions passengers would experience.

Other factors seem more logical to me:

The A350-900 seats more than the 787-9 (which matches the A330-300 in capacity). The higher MZFW also allows more revenue cargo to be loaded on regional missions. And it does give them the flexibility to move the planes between medium-haul and long-haul as traffic patterns evolve.

SQ also has a new subsidiary airline that needs planes in the 250-275 seat class. The 787-9 is in that class. SQ also is taking new deliveries of another plane that is in that class (the A330-300) to supplement and replace their existing planes in that class (which are also A330-300s). Do they need two of the same class? Probably not right now.

CX is moving from a three family fleet (747, 777 and A330+A340) to possibly a one-family fleet (A350). SQ might now feel that doing the same is beneficial and move from a three-family fleet (A380, A350, 787) to a two-family fleet (A380 and A350).

They'll take a fuel burn penalty flying the A350-900 regionally compared to the 787-9, but fuel burn isn't everything.

[Edited 2012-10-24 12:51:45]
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
I cannot dismiss the idea out of hand, for SQ could subsequently announce they decided on the A350-900 as their only medium-sized twin because it's wider.

As it appears did CX..

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
However, that seems to me to be the least likely reason for them to have done so

It's what they said... *shrug*

Rgds
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 44):
As it appears did CX..
CX said it was one of the criteria. I expect the extra length of the A350-900 might have played a bigger role (more seats) and the higher MTOW allowing more fuel to be tanked and longer flights to be flown.

And again - why buy the 787 after the A350 if you felt it wasn't wide enough? SQ appears to be a well-managed airline, so one would think they would know what they were doing when they place an order. I can understand them deciding they needed something with greater overall passenger capacity (as CX did) and adjusting their fleet plans on that basis. SQ's soft product is strong enough to compete with CX's hard-product.

If cabin and seat width is so important to SQ, why give TZ cramped 787's? Sure, compared to a 9-abreast D7 A330-300 they'll be lovely, but JQ's 8a-breast A330-300s will have wider seats. Just cancel the order and take some more 777-300ERs or some 747-8Fs, instead and order TZ nice, wide A350-900s. And why switch MI from those wide A320-200s to the narrow 737-800 and 737-8?   

Quoting astuteman (Reply 44):
It's what they said... *shrug*

Can you provide a link to the SQ press release, please? Or are you referring to CX?

[Edited 2012-10-24 18:00:51]
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
Can you provide a link to the SQ press release, please? Or are you referring to CX?

Apologies Stitch. It was CX I was referring to.

It IS my understanding though that SQ were (up to now) configuring their 787's at 8-abreast.

Rgds

[Edited 2012-10-24 18:05:03]
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23485
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 46):
It IS my understanding though that SQ were (up to now) configuring their 787's at 8-abreast.

I don't recall SQ noting what configuration they planned to fly, but 2-4-2 on the 787 would allow wider seats than 3-3-3 on the A350 (~2.5cm).

Anyway, in the end I must just go "w'ever".   Boeing still has the orders, so no net loss for the program and Airbus gets a Tier One customer to double-down on the A350.   

[Edited 2012-10-24 19:28:56]
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
why buy the 787 after the A350 if you felt it wasn't wide enough?

Didn't SQ announced the 787 order before the A350? Even if it took longer to make it official.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: SIA Launch Customer Of The 787-10?

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
And again - why buy the 787 after the A350 if you felt it wasn't wide enough?

It is the reverse: they bought the 787 because they did not like the fuselage of the A350 Mk1 as it was too narrow. SQ had a major input on the fuselage design of the A350 XWB. The A350 XWB was announced together with an order by SQ for 20 of them. Then the next A350 order after the SQ one came more than a year later, so SQ effectively launched the A350 XWB.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
If cabin and seat width is so important to SQ, why give TZ cramped 787's?

Because it is important to SQ, TZ gets a more cramped 787. Today the SQ 777 is 9 abreast while the TZ 777 is 10 abreast. It is part of the strategy to create a clear difference between the 2 brands and preserve the value of the SQ brand.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 762 772 773 77W A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos