JAAlbert
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Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:45 pm

Hello all ...

AA announced that it is acquiring the A-321 for its premium transcontinental routes which it will equip with three (or is it four including y+) classes of service. Currently, AA uses the 762 for this service.

So my question is - why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights? Call me old fashioned, but for me, a premium service involves a wide body. Yeah, I know you can trick out a NB, but still it just doesn't compare. Plus, I would imagine that AA could fill a 787 on the transcontinental routes and wouldn't a 787 premium cabin be great?

I'm interested in knowing about how and why an airline (AA) schedules and pairs routes with particular aircraft, rather than everyone's personal preference on cabin amenities - though feel free to chime in on that as well.

Right now, AA uses a 777 on at least one flight between LAX-MIA, which it seems it has no problem filling. Currently the 772 has three classes of service. I don't think AA has indicated it will continued first class on this route when the new planes arrive. Given the traffic between these two entertainment hotspots, is that wise? Will the 772 continue after the new planes arrive?

[Edited 2012-10-24 09:49:19]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights?

If the range is not required, the A321 will be more profitable.

The 787 is built for range, the A321 more so for cycles. I would suspect that the 787s would be rotated in once there are a number in the fleet. But more for fleet management instead of customer preference.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Will the 772 continue after the new planes arrive?

Probably not. The A321s carry passengers on that length of mission more economically.

Lightsaber
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aacun
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:49 pm

And as far as I know, and for what I have heard, the 787 Is going to be a 2 class ac. ( 3 if you consider mc extra).......
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
So my question is - why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights?

Because the A321 is quite a bit more cost-effective at transcontinental range, and also enables the frequency which is all-important in this market.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Plus, I would imagine that AA could fill a 787 on the transcontinental routes

Only if they reduced the frequency to a point that this market would really dislike.

People don't care (well, they care a bit, but not enough to sway a decision) whether they're on a narrowbody or a widebody. They very much do care about the lie-flat and E+ seats, and they care even more about having a flight as close to once an hour as possible.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Right now, AA uses a 777 on at least one flight between LAX-MIA, which it seems it has no problem filling.

That 777 is there for aircraft rotation.

[Edited 2012-10-24 14:55:34]
 
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STT757
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights?



AA doesn't even have a firm order for the 787.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:09 pm

Too expensive a plane and almost no one buying a ticket cares enough narrow body versus wide body
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
wouldn't a 787 premium cabin be great?

Have you seen the pictures of the A321 premium cabins? They look awesome.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
I would imagine that AA could fill a 787 on the transcontinental routes and wouldn't a 787 premium cabin be great?

Yields, especially Y yields, are generally low on transcon flights. They could probably fill a 787 without too much issue, but the yields would be trash.


And then there is the small problem of AA not having any 787s on order  
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Stitch
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
So my question is - why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights?

It would result in a significant increase in available seats, requiring AA to lower fares in all classes to fill it.

By moving from the 767-200 to the 757-200 and A321-200, both UA and AA have been able to tailor capacity to the demand at the desired higher fare levels. The increase in RASM handily covers the increase in CASM.



Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
And then there is the small problem of AA not having any 787s on order.   

It's well-known that AA's MoU is structured as if they had placed a firm order (with assigned production slots and delivery windows). Even AA's management talk about how they intend to use the 787-9 when it arrives.

It's a matter of when, not if, that MoU is firmed.  Wink

[Edited 2012-10-24 16:26:11]
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:26 pm

The 787 wasn't conceived for 'premium' routes that other aircraft are perfectly suited for. It was conceived as a plane that could make long-and-thin routes profitable...allow carriers to open up new markets (e.g. JAL in Boston). If AA decided to use it for 'premium' routes such as JFK-LAX or JFK-London, people would bludgeon them with a baseball bat...and I'd be right there with them.
 
ckfred
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:19 pm

First, while it's true that AA doesn't have a firm order for 787s, Boeing is holding production slots. Assuming that AA's negotiations with APA results in a new contract, then AA will confirm the order.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 8):
The 787 wasn't conceived for 'premium' routes that other aircraft are perfectly suited for. It was conceived as a plane that could make long-and-thin routes profitable...allow carriers to open up new markets (e.g. JAL in Boston). If AA decided to use it for 'premium' routes such as JFK-LAX or JFK-London, people would bludgeon them with a baseball bat...and I'd be right there with them.

Why can't a carrier have a premium product on a long, thin route?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 9):
Why can't a carrier have a premium product on a long, thin route?

Because almost no long thin routes have the premium demand to warrant it.

Heavy premium demand is almost always found on routes between major centers, which are not usually "thin" even if they are "long." That said, a carrier could easily want 787s not to fly them on thin routes but to fly thick routes with very high frequency.
 
HiJazzey
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
Because almost no long thin routes have the premium demand to warrant it

Not true. A lot of business destinations are big on premium but thin on volume. look at all the "oil" routes for example.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
Have you seen the pictures of the A321 premium cabins? They look awesome.

Of course I have! Yes, I agree the cabin is great - I hope I have the opportunity of flying it. Those fancy business seats make a five hour flight seem much too short!

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
And then there is the small problem of AA not having any 787s on order

Yeah, but AA keeps saying the 787 will be in its fleet by 2014 is it?
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting aacun (Reply 2):
And as far as I know, and for what I have heard, the 787 Is going to be a 2 class ac. ( 3 if you consider mc extra).......

I don't think that's right. If i'm not mistaken, the 789s that AA has ordered/planning to order will be configured like the 773s in a 3 class setting (four class if you count Y+). The 772s and 763s will be configured in a 2-class setting (3 if you count Y+)
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
So my question is - why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights? Call me old fashioned, but for me, a premium service involves a wide body

No reason to fly all that extra weight when a lighter aircraft will do the job and reduce costs. Frequency is more important on a route like JFK-LAX than aircraft type. Also keep in mind that landing fees are based on maximum landing weight in the US (maximum takeoff weight in most of the rest of the world).
 
eastern747
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:38 pm

For my 2 cents, all these sinarios regarding AA are just wishful thinking. All this...they will use a #### on this route or that and where the 787 will go. My company has decided to drop AA after 25 years, as they don't want to get stuck if/when they belly up. For those of us that travel we have told our travel center NO WAY FOR UA either. It will be interesting....
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 8):
The 787 wasn't conceived for 'premium' routes that other aircraft are perfectly suited for. It was conceived as a plane that could make long-and-thin routes profitable...allow carriers to open up new markets (e.g. JAL in Boston). If AA decided to use it for 'premium' routes such as JFK-LAX or JFK-London, people would bludgeon them with a baseball bat...and I'd be right there with them.

AA will use the 787-9 for "premum" service just not on the LAX to JFK route. Very likely AA will fly them to the usual 777 destinations: LHR, GRU, EZE, NRT and Shanghai. WE will also see something we have not seen, Hong Kong hopefully. IF AA and Emirates do a deal Dubai should join the party too. India (again) and South Africa would be great and could finally join the AA route map. A greater Asian presence would be what I truly hope the 787 brings.
 
brilondon
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
AA announced that it is acquiring the A-321 for its premium transcontinental routes which it will equip with three (or is it four including y ) classes of service. Currently, AA uses the 762 for this service.

So my question is - why didn't AA earmark the 787 for these flights? Call me old fashioned, but for me, a premium service involves a wide body. Yeah, I know you can trick out a NB, but still it just doesn't compare. Plus, I would imagine that AA could fill a 787 on the transcontinental routes and wouldn't a 787 premium cabin be great?

Yeah it would be great, but since no one else is using a premium product to fly that route why would AA do this. First; The 787 has to be delivered, Second; I thought that is what they want the A321 to do, Third; If they do aquire the 787, don't you think that the premium international routes would be the first routes to get that type of service?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 1):
Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Will the 772 continue after the new planes arrive?

Absolutely. The 787 will replace the 763's more than likely, if they receive them, and the A321s can carry passengers on that length of mission more economically
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citationjet
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Call me old fashioned, but for me, a premium service involves a wide body. Yeah, I know you can trick out a NB, but still it just doesn't compare.

My wife has owned a corporate incentive travel agency for over 12 years. She has clients who travel exclusively first class. She has sold thousands of tickets over the years. Not once has a client or corporation requested a wide body over a narrow body aircraft. The only aircraft destinction that they sometimes care about is regional jet vs mainline jet. Most clients don't know and don't care what type of aircraft they are on. They only care about cost and schedule.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
VC10er
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RE: Why Isn't AA Using The 787 For Its Premium Service

Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:13 pm

Given the amount of United 787's on the way I am concerned about no F on them. AA and UA are the 2 US carriers holding out on a decent international First Class. While my company and clients do "sometimes" buy us F I choose UA. Since the merger of CO and UA these long hauls in 2 class out of NY will just not satisfy those executives above me. It is one of their perks. If AA has F on their LHR to GRU to NRT routes, they will take all those paying First elites from 2 class ex CO birds.

The BF seats are nice but can easily be topped. Even AA will trump United ps service soon.

If AA lasts, they can squeeze in an F suite just like they and UA do right now on a 767.

IMHO
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