Ferminios
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New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:20 pm

Founded by Hamid Kerboua, who's also involved in Amsterdam Airlines, the airline plans to start operations this January with Fokker F50s.

Initial Routes:
MST - AMS
MST - CDG
MST - MUC
MST - SXF


The airline claims to cooperate with 30 airlines. Who all those are, and to what extent is unknown to me at the moment.

http://maastricht-airlines.nl/gb_en/pages

Will be interesting to watch, I hope it will last!

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RWA380
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:24 pm

I wish them the best, I am concerned with Europe's economy having some rocky times, if this is just another hurdle for a fledgling carrier to overcome? F50 seems like a nice passenger experience, I can not speak on working them. Any IATA code?
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JU068
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:42 pm

Wow how long would a flight from Maastricht to Amsterdam take? 15 minutes?

Wasn't there another Dutch airline in the making?
 
SR4ever
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:57 pm

KL flew AMS-MST in the past.

Maastricht airlines could make it if they code-shares with KL.

Not impressed by MST-CDG either (Air Excel flew it in the late-80s and early-90s).
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 2):
Wow how long would a flight from Maastricht to Amsterdam take? 15 minutes?

AMS-MST is actually 8mi longer than AMS-BRU and only 3mi shorter than AMS-DUS.
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CrimsonNL
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:32 pm

I'm a little skeptical but I sure hope they can make it work! It would be great to have domestic flights back in the Netherlands!

Martijn
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting Ferminios (Thread starter):
The airline claims to cooperate with 30 airlines. Who all those are, and to what extent is unknown to me at the moment.

For AMS and CDG to work I think they need to have some form of interline agreement with AF and KL. But that in itself isn't great for their bottom line.

Good luck to them nevertheless.


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LJ
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Loadfactors

Quoting Ferminios (Thread starter):
Founded by Hamid Kerboua, who's also involved in Amsterdam Airlines, the airline plans to start operations this January with Fokker F50s.

Initial Routes:
MST - AMS
MST - CDG
MST - MUC
MST - SXF

Laodfactors on AMS-MST were terrible when KL flew the route (average 50%). It was loss making and it will be for anyone. The other routes have failed as well in the past.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 2):
Wow how long would a flight from Maastricht to Amsterdam take? 15 minutes?

20 minutes taxiing (if they get the Polderbaan assigned) at AMS, 20 mintues in the air. Inbound into AMS can also mean adding another 10 minutes to get in line of the runway.
 
brilondon
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 5):
I'm a little skeptical but I sure hope they can make it work! It would be great to have domestic flights back in the Netherlands!

Martijn

Would the train not be faster...or biking or walking? I don't see the Netherlands needing a domestic carrier unless you include the Dutch Antilles as a domestic routing.
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ushermittwoch
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 8):
Would the train not be faster...or biking or walking? I don't see the Netherlands needing a domestic carrier unless you include the Dutch Antilles as a domestic routing.

From city center to city center the train takes about 2.5 hours.
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european742
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:54 pm

Sorry to be negative but I cant see this working especially MST-AMS, by the time you take into account getting to the airport, waiting an hour for the flight, the actual flight, getting thru the airport and then the train to the city it will probably take longer than the train. Having said that the only way it can work is an interline agreement with KL but when they flew it themselves it didnt even work. I think this will go the same direction as Amsterdam Airlines or even Europort Express, the airline that was launching from RTM. Of course I hope I am proved wrong but thats just my thoughts.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting european742 (Reply 10):
by the time you take into account getting to the airport, waiting an hour for the flight, the actual flight, getting thru the airport and then the train to the city it will probably take longer than the train.

This goes for quite a few routes.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
LJ
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 11):
Quoting european742 (Reply 10):
by the time you take into account getting to the airport, waiting an hour for the flight, the actual flight, getting thru the airport and then the train to the city it will probably take longer than the train.

This goes for quite a few routes.

The real problem is that there is no reason why many people would travel to or from MST. The Dutch province of Limburg isn't doing great and it isn't something like Eindhoven where you have a lot of tech companies (even though Philips left Eindhoven). It speaks for itself that MST wasn't (and still isn't) a daily flight to London. Needless to say the fact that DUS and BRU are nearby doesn't help.

Quoting european742 (Reply 10):
I think this will go the same direction as Amsterdam Airlines or even Europort Express, the airline that was launching from RTM.

Amsterdam Airlines took off and managed to fly for 2 years... I don't think this airline will make it (if they fly at all).
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:05 am

Maastricht Airlines, the name itself is doomed to fail miserably. They should do the same as Ryanair does, fly a bit further and do some leisure flights and destinations.
 
bj87
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 7):

Laodfactors on AMS-MST were terrible when KL flew the route (average 50%). It was loss making and it will be for anyone. The other routes have failed as well in the past.

To be honest KL practically didn't do any marketing whatsoever for that route. I only found out about the KLC flight to Amsterdam after a friend that works at a traveling agency pointed it out to me! After that I started using the Cityhopper like a personal shuttle bus. If you flew on KL or one of it's partners you only paid 25euros for the flight to AMS and back. That was much cheaper than the train or car + you don't have to get up ridiculously early and you don't have to haul your luggage half way through the country. I mis KL at MST these days it is easier to just use Brussels or Düsseldorf.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):

For AMS and CDG to work I think they need to have some form of interline agreement with AF and KL. But that in itself isn't great for their bottom line.

I would agree, no one will fly just to AMS or CDG they will need that interline agreement to survive in the long run. This is not going to be the business hub that VLM had in Rotterdam! (ohw and let's not forget we also have the high speed rail service from Aachen to Paris that they will have to compete with.)

Quoting LJ (Reply 12):
The real problem is that there is no reason why many people would travel to or from MST. The Dutch province of Limburg isn't doing great and it isn't something like Eindhoven where you have a lot of tech companies (even though Philips left Eindhoven). It speaks for itself that MST wasn't (and still isn't) a daily flight to London. Needless to say the fact that DUS and BRU are nearby doesn't help.

Agreed 95% There are time periods when people might want to fly to MST but "business" market is going to be weak at the best of times. Leisure and cargo flights are the way to go for MST. But like you said the do have to compete with DUS BRU and also EIN, not to mention the high speed rail services from Aachen. The fact that Ryanair is stationing an aircraft here for the winter proves that the leisure market demand is there all year round otherwise penny scrounger Ryanair would be here.

Then we have the capacity problem. MST is mostly a cargo/GA airport, the airport got swamped the last couple of months by 2 737s and 1 A319 landing within an hour of each other and sometimes were on the ground all at the same time. The terminal is not big enough to deal with 3 narrow body aircraft at the same time. It can be done but it ain't pretty!

Quoting LJ (Reply 12):

Amsterdam Airlines took off and managed to fly for 2 years... I don't think this airline will make it (if they fly at all).

In all fairness an ad/hoc charter company and a line carrier are difficult to compare. That said having someone at the helm that has already seen two airlines go bankrupt does not inspire confidence, although he could apply what he has learned and turn Maastricht Airlines into VLM 2.0!

Quoting Plane Holland (Reply 13):
Maastricht Airlines, the name itself is doomed to fail miserably

Something a little more original would be nice but it will have to do. At least it isn´t something tacky like "peach".
 
bjorn14
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:55 pm

I wonder why no LON flights?
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Pe@rson
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
I wonder why no LON flights?

Given FR will soon fly MST-STN with very unit-cost-efficient 738s, on what basis do you assume they'd be sufficient demand for a second operator? We can likely assume that if sufficient premium traffic existed WX would operate non-stop to LCY much like it does from, say, AMS, RTM, EIN, ANR (Belgium), etc.

[Edited 2012-10-27 06:08:14]
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bjorn14
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16):
Given FR will soon fly MST-STN

I didn't know FR was going back to MST
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Pe@rson
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 17):
I didn't know FR was going back to MST

Ah, fair enough!  
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LJ
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 14):
If you flew on KL or one of it's partners you only paid 25euros for the flight to AMS and back.

Which will be loss making for KL, even with a 100% load factor. I personally think that KL made the same conclusion for MST as they made for ANR, it just not worth it. Yes, you're going to loose some pax to DUS or BRU, but if you make a considerable loss flying these pax, why continuing to service them (no offense intended)?

Quoting bj87 (Reply 14):
To be honest KL practically didn't do any marketing whatsoever for that route. I only found out about the KLC flight to Amsterdam after a friend that works at a traveling agency pointed it out to me!

??? AMS-MST has been there for many many years until KL pulled it a few years ago.

Quoting bj87 (Reply 14):

Agreed 95% There are time periods when people might want to fly to MST but "business" market is going to be weak at the best of times. Leisure and cargo flights are the way to go for MST.

Which is why this venture won't succeed (apart from the fact that the F50 is too big for most of the routes they intend to operate). If you fly a F50 3/4 times daily to AMS (which was/is their plan) you better get a lot more than the EUR 25 one way KLC got for its flights (BTW their plan is/was to charge EUR 30 one way).

Quoting bj87 (Reply 14):
he fact that Ryanair is stationing an aircraft here for the winter proves that the leisure market demand is there all year round otherwise penny scrounger Ryanair would be here.

Don't read too much in FR coming to MST. First, they are at MST partially to off set the constraints they have (or fear) at EIN. FR is currently actively bashing EIN for its constraints (or future constraints) whereas HV and other airlines don't seem to have issues with that (but that's another discussion). In the end it doesn't matter for most pax if they fly from MST or EIN. Second, MST isn't an expensive airport.
 
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
I wonder why no LON flights?

A SEN service is planned for 2014 according to the website
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by738
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 20):
A SEN service is planned for 2014 according to the website

Despite what they might advertise, SEN is not one of the " LON" airports
 
kl911
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 21):
Despite what they might advertise, SEN is not one of the " LON" airports

For pax it will be. Easier and faster to get to the city compared to Stansted.
 
bj87
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
??? AMS-MST has been there for many many years until KL pulled it a few years ago.

I know that! I only moved here about ten years ago before I got into the whole flying thing. You might know it has been there for decades but if you are someone that doesn't have an interest in aviation and doesn't life next to the airport or within the arrival/departure route then you are not going to know it exists! If people don't know it exists then they will not use it.

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
Don't read too much in FR coming to MST. First, they are at MST partially to off set the constraints they have (or fear) at EIN. FR is currently actively bashing EIN for its constraints (or future constraints) whereas HV and other airlines don't seem to have issues with that (but that's another discussion). In the end it doesn't matter for most pax if they fly from MST or EIN. Second, MST isn't an expensive airport.

Obviously it helps that MST is a relatively inexpensive airport that does not suffer from restrictions, I am not naive. But you have got to admit FR does not fly to places where they can't fly the planes without an economical load. They are here because it can earn them money. I don't see why I can't use that to point out that there is a passenger market at MST!

Don't get me wrong MST is never going to be a big base 1 plane is probably going to be it.

Quoting by738 (Reply 21):
Despite what they might advertise, SEN is not one of the " LON" airports
Quoting KL911 (Reply 22):
For pax it will be. Easier and faster to get to the city compared to Stansted.

SEN has a direct rail service to London Liverpool street instead of a coach service like Stansted has. If I would have to choose I would definitely go for Southend. Stansted is a nice airport but I would prefer a direct rail service over a coach any day of the week, especially in winter.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 23):
SEN has a direct rail service to London Liverpool street instead of a coach service like Stansted has
STN has regular trains - often every 15 minutes during the day - to London Liverpool Street with the journey time around 45 minutes.

It also has many coaches to London (e.g. Victoria) by National Express and Terravision.

[Edited 2012-10-28 05:25:29]
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PlymSpotter
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 21):
Despite what they might advertise, SEN is not one of the " LON" airports

No, it's a London Airport, as classified by the CAA.


Dan  
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tk1244
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:26 pm

Although hoping to see them flying, I think "Maastricht Airlines" will have the same faith as "Wings of Maastricht"???

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 5):
It would be great to have domestic flights back in the Netherlands!
Quoting brilondon (Reply 8):
unless you include the Dutch Antilles as a domestic routing.

As of October 10th, 2010 (the date when the BES islands became special municipalities of the Netherlands), all flights between the Netherlands, Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius are considered as domestic flights  
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MHG
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:34 pm

Just need to add my    ...

MST has always been struggling to attract carriers.
KLM served MST-AMS for many years but finally scrapped the route as passenger numbers went down continously.
The route was "profitable" as long as KL was able to cross subsidy by charging relatively high throughfares via AMS.
But when competition from the German side became much stronger (DUS in particular but also CGN) passengers voted whith their feet and skipped KLM in favor of departing from DUS.

Before that Virgin Atlantic served a daily MST-LGW route for some time (intended as a feeder for VS-longhaul flights ex LGW using Vickers Viscount ! ) but gave up eventually.

Air Exel (XT/Netherlands) was founded as home carrier in MST and served AMS/STN/MUC/ORY (IIRC) but none of the routes were ever really profitable even though the AMS route was run with a codeshare agreement with KL.
In Air Exel´s final stage it was left to serve MST-AMS only and had given up flying under their own brand serving the route on behalf of KLM.
KLM took over the route after Air Exels demise but still couldn´t make the route work - not surprising considering the much more competitive environment with lots of LCC´s around ...

BASE (Eindhoven) served MST as a tag-on from their EIN base but eventually gave up.

Then nothing really happened for many years and Ryanair as well as Easyjet and Germanwings showed up more recently but finally decided they could not generate sufficient loads/yields.
They simply operated too large aircraft for the MST market.


One main problem for MST is that the local market (Zuid Limburg) is too small to generate sufficient loads alone.
The second problem is that the potentially lucrative German market is geographically very close but road infrastructure (highways/"Autobahn") do not connect the airport with the Aachen region in a straight line but rather requires drivers to drive zig-zag wise towards the airport. The result is travel time from Aachen to MST is just about 20 mins less than to CGN where Germanwings/TUIfly/Air Berlin offer lots of cheap flights ...
And public transport from Germany to MST is simply too time consuming.
On the other side of the southern border is Belgium where people tend to prefer BRU (being just over an hour away from there ...)

So, MST´s location is stuck somewhere "between three chairs" ...


Conclusion:
Despite I like regional airports (I grew up near Aachen btw.) I am very sceptical about Maastricht Airlines perspective in the mid to long term. I´d be happy to be proven wrong, though !
At least Maastricht Airlines is not stepping into the MST market with too much capacity - which was the case whith the LCC´s.
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LJ
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting MHG (Reply 27):

Then nothing really happened for many years and Ryanair as well as Easyjet and Germanwings showed up more recently but finally decided they could not generate sufficient loads/yields.

Only FR returned with some holiday destinations + Dublin and STN. Will be intersting to see if they can manage to make a profit this time.
 
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sibille
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RE: New Dutch Airline : Maastricht Airlines

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:18 am

Should be great if AF could codeshare some flights from Maastricht to Paris CDG. I'm living in Belgium but only 30 minutes from Maastricht airport and it takes sometimes more than 7 hours to come back home from CDG as AF operates train to Brussels City and then, I have to take two more tains to go back home (and if you are travelling in business or first, you don't have lounge access when you become a train passenger from CDG, even if the train to Brussels has a AF number). The only lounge avaible is the arrival one which is open in the morning only.....
I think it could be interresting for a lot of passenger as Maastricht in in Holland and because of AF and KL alliance.