SCQ83
Topic Author
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IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:36 pm

Iberia/Iberia Express has announced the suspension of services to Amsterdam, Berlin-Tegel and Stockholm-Arlanda, from January 10, 2013, and a reduction in frequencies in domestic services to Malaga, Sevilla, Fuerteventura, Lanzarote, Mallorca and Alicante. According to the Spanish media, this is a way to pressure Iberia pilots' unions since IAG wants to execute thousands of layoff notices.

(Spanish only):

http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/em...elos-invierno/20121029cdscdsemp_2/

Interestingly, if those services are finally suspended, the only direct service connecting Madrid and Berlin (SXF) would be Easyjet, and Ryanair the only remaining carrier in the Madrid-Stockholm (NYO) route. For AMS, there is still Air Europa and KLM (Easyjet is also cancelling MAD-AMS in December).
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:16 pm

Looks as if IB doesn't believe in the Spanish economy either...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
sweair
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:23 pm

I just went with IB on ARN-MAD, it was at a good price too, nice service and planes, a bit worn A321s, but friendly FAs all the way. Hopefully they will come back some day, soon there will only be Norwegian from ARN going to ALC or in that area and their prices were a lot higher than IBs in September. Any chance that Air Nostrum could expand up here?   Really great flying with them.
 
DALCE
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:33 pm

Very strange to see them leave AMS. They know their numbers, but from my point of view this is not the most logical route to suspend.
Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
acelanzarote
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:44 pm

Maybe Vueling will (return?) on the MAD-AMS route, going from four to two operators (with easyjet also winding down MAD) its easy to see where the fares will be heading. Looks like if I want to visit AMS next year it certainly will not be via MAD....
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
 
SCQ83
Topic Author
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 2):
Quoting DALCE (Reply 3):

There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.
 
mfc
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

I agree with you, no sense at all.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
rwsea
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
Very strange to see them leave AMS. They know their numbers, but from my point of view this is not the most logical route to suspend.
Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.

I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.
 
BA777
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:02 pm

MAD-NYO frequencies may well increase soon as it is currently 3/wk then especially as SK are struggling as mentioned on here.
 
anstar
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.

I've also flown Air Europa in this route a few times... planes were full, but I booked late (3 weeks before) and paid about 119!!!
 
LJ
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 3):

Anyway, the gap will be filled without a doubt.

Skyteam will be very pleased. Not only does this mean that IB is gone from the local market, but also from AMS to Latin America. Added bonus for Skyteam is that they decided to cancel ARN as well.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

They'll loose business anyway as these flights are currently not bookable. This means anyone travelling to/from MAD will take another option. Moreover, anyone flying between AMS and Latin America will its options reduced considerably. Finally, this doesn't look good for IAGs presence in AMS.


Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.

There is a fair amount of business traffic on the route though this has diminished (and will diminish even further) due to the crisis in Spain. However, I don;t think it's a garbage route, moreover now U2 is gone.
 
mfc
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:43 pm

This whole thing is really disappointing. I don't see what's the point. You say the cause is the crisis in Spain, but Portugal ,for example, is in bad shape too and TAP hasn't axed any European route as far as I know. Fighting between Unions and Iberia is really hurting the company and the whole country.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
r2rho
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):
There is no logic at all, it is a way to pressure the unions. Let's see whether those "suspensions" are finally put in place.

I agree. There is definitely a market for two carriers btw MAD and Stockholm/Berlin. AMS was maybe a bloodbath with IB, U2 and KL/UX on the route, but with U2 already pulling out IB could have remained. Strange things going on here...
 
anstar
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 10):
They'll loose business anyway as these flights are currently not bookable. This means anyone travelling to/from MAD will take another option. Moreover, anyone flying between AMS and Latin America will its options reduced considerably. Finally, this doesn't look good for IAGs presence in AMS.

IAG still have about 18 flights a day with BA between Amsterdam & London I wouldn't be casting doubts on an IAG presence in the market.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:05 pm

It doesn't make sense that a) Iberia Express is cutting routes when IAG has been at pains to emphasise that Iberia Express has been a operational and financial success and b) that these routes are major European cities that feed the Iberia hub at Madrid.

This just doesn't add up.
 
DALCE
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:28 am

I wonder how long it takes for HV to jump in the gap.
Downside would be that they are basically KL, and with UX and KL already operating prices will rise.......
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Summa767
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 14):
It doesn't make sense that a) Iberia Express is cutting routes when IAG has been at pains to emphasise that Iberia Express has been a operational and financial success and b) that these routes are major European cities that feed the Iberia hub at Madrid.

Indeed. Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

In the meantime, BA is being blamed for the axing of this routes. IB's commercial director happens to be British.
http://www.preferente.com/noticias-d...cuencias-en-otras-seis-234524.html
 
Tupolev160
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:49 pm

More surprises from Iberia... Besides one of the biggest European airlines being totally absent from Eastern Europe (besides their Vueling-branded flights to Moscow).

I was also surprised to notice that QR ranks 3rd intercontinental airline out of BCN in term of passengers transporter (way ahead of EK!). No market for IB to step-in on BCN->Middle East?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
factsonly
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):

I wonder how long it takes for HV to jump in the gap.
Downside would be that they are basically KL, and with UX and KL already operating prices will rise.......
HV already operates RTM-MAD 4x/week and will operate EIN-MAD 4x/week from April 2013, so plenty of competition remains in NL-MAD market.

Also the number of direct flights between NL and Spanish destinations (Vueling, HV, Ryanair) is growing so there is less need for transfers in MAD, while KLM has added new LATAM destinations GIG, EZE and increased frequencies & capacity to PTY, GRU, LIM, GYA, UIO, etc.

Note that perhaps due to these effects and the Spanish economic crisis MAD-AMS fell from being the 2nd largest pax. market of AMS in 2010 to 3rd largest in 2011 (1.100.000 pax/year), having been overtaken by BCN-AMS which grew 24% last year to become the largest international market of BCN at 1.324.000 pax/year.

In movements MAD-AMS fell from 3rd largest in 2010 to being 6th largest market in 2011 having been overtaken by the number of flights between AMS-BCN, AMS-CPH and AMS-MUC.

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:08:04]

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:10:46]

[Edited 2012-10-30 06:11:23]
 
r2rho
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 16):
Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

Thank you for this important information. This proves that the decision is not a commercial, but a legal one. People are very quick nowadays to blame everything on the crisis in Spain by default, instead of looking into the issues.
It seems that IB has its hands tied and cannot operate in a normal way until the conflict with the pilot unions is solved. Let's hope it happens soon as this neverending uncertainty is badly hurting IB.

[Edited 2012-10-31 06:37:01]
 
Clydenairways
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 16):

Indeed. Except that at the moment Iberia Express is capped at 14 aircraft due to a decision by a government appointed mediator that came up with the "brilliant" idea of ruling that the creation of Iberia express was legal, but that its pilots would have to join the mainline hierarchy -rather than be a separate company.
So an unworkable ruling that has been appealed, but that has IB Express in limbo.
Perhaps IB will use these routes as a bargaining chip as to the future of IB Express. Something along the lines of "It's IB express or nothing"

Interesting. I didn't know about this new ruling. It will be interesting to know how this plays out. IAG are obviously prepared to play hardball if they are prepared to axe the likes of AMS which has been served for over 40 years.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 1):
Looks as if IB doesn't believe in the Spanish economy either...

This is clearly nothing to do with the economy, but rather a tactic to deal with the unions.
 
juanpedro
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:23 pm

This is very surprising, and makes little sense. I've flown AMS-MAD approx 20 times this year on IB and the flights are invariably full, mainly with passengers connecting to LATAM destinations (including myself).

Currently AMS-MAD-AMS flights on IB are largely booked out through Nov-Dec (so much so that I cannot use IB to go to LIM in Nov or Dec....).

So either IB is badly mismanaging yields on this service, or they are playing a political game that makes little sense. Certainly passenger numbers are not to blame.....
 
r2rho
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:59 am

Well, in case there were still any doubts about the legal rather than commercial reasons behind this, here is some further proof. The IB / I2 arbitration process is back to square one:

"The Spanish High Court has overturned the original arbitration process that nominally ended the conflict between Iberia and pilots union SEPLA, saying it was technically flawed and should be restarted.">/i>

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...are-one-after-court-ruling-378590/
 
tripple7
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:19 am

AF/KLM will be very happy with IAG's choice to fight out their disputes in this way. This reduces quite some competition on the AMS - Latin America market. Also with Iberia gone from the ARN and BER markets, this might result in some additional Latin America traffic through AMS and CDG.

Is IAG expecting it can serve lost customers through BA's network?
 
mfc
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 23):
Is IAG expecting it can serve lost customers through BA's network?

Maybe it's their intention. Some voices say that they want Iberia to become weaker in benefit of BA.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
RAGAZZO777
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 23):
Is IAG expecting it can serve lost customers through BA's network?

Then BA should open up new Latin American destinations, because clearly the MAD hub is becoming less and less attractive vis-à-vis the other European hubs.
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
bluesky73
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:01 pm

I also linked news regarding IB Express ruling being illegal. Something is going on at IAG,l but can't put finger on it.

It looks like they trying shake up Iberia but why would people want to fly MAD-AMS via LHR? Clearly IAG happy to lose customers to competitors and AF/KL laughing.
 
kl911
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
I've taken this route multiple times on KLM, and never paid more than €99 r/t. It's also a regular fixture on KLM's sales. Clearly the yields are garbage on this route.

It must be, not even Ryanair is flying to Madrid from EIN ( 1,5 hours from AMS )  
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:28 pm

It seems that a major restructuring of Iberia will be announced on Friday and IAG presents is Q3 results:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...eria-layoffs-idUSL5E8M78RI20121107

Quote:
Nov 7 (Reuters) - A restructuring plan that could see up to 7,000 job losses will be revealed by Spanish airline Iberia at a meeting with labour unions on Friday, union sources said on Wednesday.

Business at Iberia, part of International Airlines Group together with British Airways, has been hit by recession and high unemployment in Spain, which remains at the centre of the euro zone sovereign debt crisis.

"We have been summoned for Friday and the only thing we know is that they want to announce a massive staff layoff plan," said a spokesman at CTA, the union for land-staff personnel for Iberia, which has some 20,000 employees.
 
theginge
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:35 pm



Quote:
Following media reports, International Consolidated Airlines Group, S.A. (IAG) can confirm that it is considering making an offer for 100 per cent of the share capital of Vueling Airlines, S.A. (Vueling).
http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...-newsArticle&ID=1755700&highlight=

[Edited 2012-11-07 12:37:49]
 
mfc
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RE: IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:17 pm

Interesting weeks ahead, let's see what it happens.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past