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KarelXWB
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Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:20 pm

A French newspaper "Les Echos" published an interesting article about Air France and the A380. The company is not so happy with the current availability of the A380.

Here is the text by Google Translate. I made the interesting parts bold:

Quote:
Air France wants to be compensated for the unavailability of A380.

The Company believes that the technical problems too frequent and most importantly, repairs for micro-cracks in the wings, will deprive the equivalent of an A380 full year.

Three years after its entry into service in the Air France fleet, the A380 remains a tension between Air France-KLM and Airbus. Like other airlines such as Emirates, the French company claimed financial compensation to the manufacturer for the shortfall caused by too many outages of its very large aircraft, as well as measures to improve their reliability. The amount of these damages could reach tens of millions of euros. To date, discussions with Airbus protracted, as did the negotiations for the order of 25 A350-announced in the summer of 2011 and still not signed, which is not limited to the single issue of engine maintenance Rolls-Royce.

According to our information, the availability rate of A380-essential data for company-indeed remains well below expectations causing too many delays and cancellations. Eight A380 in the colors of Air France, carrying more than 4,000 daily passengers would display another failure rate by about 3%, nearly double the rate commonly accepted. Abnormalities most often harmless, which generally cause delays, but sorely test the patience of Air France teams and sometimes its passengers.

In July, an A380 en route to Japan was forced to return to Paris-Charles de Gaulle, after being forced to offload its fuel over the Baltic. In January, Air France was even found two A380 down the same day, one in Johannesburg and one in Roissy. At Air France, refused to comment on the difficulties of the A380, in order not to tarnish the image of the flagship, which continues to exert a certain attraction to customers. But the staff, problems and repeated delays begin to tire. "On all new aircraft, there is a phase of" debugging ", says one. But in the case of the A380, it does not get better as quickly as anticipated and regularity is significantly worse than when the online other aircraft. "

Beyond issues specific to mature all new aircraft, the main concern of Air France remains the problem of micro-cracks discovered in the wings of the A380 structure that will require many weeks of immobilization to perform repairs. If Airbus is committed to defray the entire cost of repairs, which will cost him a total of some 360 ​​million euros for the A380 hundred concerned, the manufacturer refuses to compensate the loss of gain related to the immobilization devices.

Or at Air France, it was the accounts: the program of inspections and repairs of the wings of A380 equivalent to immobilize the equivalent of a unit throughout the year, a shortfall of about 30 to 50 million euros. Commercial damage including Air France intends to be compensated. She is not the only one: the biggest customers for the A380, Emirates, which operates 25 A380s, also claiming to be indemnified. According to its CEO, Tim Clark, property caused by the problem of cracks already amounted to 90 million in March.

Source http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...disponibilites-des-a380-505696.php

[Edited 2012-10-30 14:31:57]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
The company is not so happy with the unavailability of the A380.

Sounds like a blessing in disguise 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:41 pm

I've had my last A380 flight downgraded to a 77W due to technical issues...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
jfk777
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 2):
e had my last A380 flight downgraded to a 77W due to technical issues...

How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:28 pm

Well if it has new wings and stuff, the teething problems could be there too.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:39 pm

I'm surprised most of the teething problems haven't been worked out by now. The A380 is a beautiful airplane, but one has to wonder if it is just too much airplane. Though I have to imagine people said that about the 747 back in the day. Hopefully the wing crack issue gets solved very soon. I can't imagine it is helping the order book much.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
phxa340
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Hmmmm AF is complaining loud and clear about the A380 and EK can't order enough of them .... where is the disconnect ?
 
AR385
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

If they do, however, why would they go with the 777-9X if the 747-8i is available much sooner?
 
iahmark
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:52 pm

Seems this could be a blessing in disguise for Boeing as it’s the only other choice for a big plane with 4 engines, meaning the B747-8i.

Maybe AF needs to reevaluate its long range fleet strategy and to take a page from the Lufthansa handbook and split it between A380’s and 748’s, makes sense not to have all your eggs in one basket.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

Careful what you wish for; the 748 and 787 program launches are certainly not without pains, particularly in the powerplant department.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
The A380 is a beautiful airplane

Sir, you need to hire a new seeing-eye dog, as yours is clearly just as blind as you are!

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 6):
Hmmmm AF is complaining loud and clear about the A380 and EK can't order enough of them .... where is the disconnect ?

EK likes the economics of the plane, but you can't speak as though the ineffable Tim Clark hasn't spoken VERY publicly about his demands for compensation for the wing crack issue.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 pm

And LH running them with no apparent issues like these guys??
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
I'm surprised most of the teething problems haven't been worked out by now. The A380 is a beautiful airplane, but one has to wonder if it is just too much airplane. Though I have to imagine people said that about the 747 back in the day. Hopefully the wing crack issue gets solved very soon.

The cracks have been resolved, it's a matter of getting the production line changed, and a once off fix for existing customers or planes coming off the line. The fix only has to be done once for each plane, but it is time consuming.
 
pesit4a
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):

Given AF's long haul fleet is built around the 777, with some 55 operated, I fail to see why that would be a big deal?
You just can't keep a good man down!
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 am

I wonder if other airlines are having dispatch issues comparable to AF's. Does the 3% figure include time for repair of the cracks or does that issue bump up the figure?
 
Max Q
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):


Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
The A380 is a beautiful airplane

Sir, you need to hire a new seeing-eye dog, as yours is clearly just as blind as you are!

Have to agree, I hope you're not a fighter Pilot with vision like that !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:13 am

Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AR385
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?

And...the above statement is an example of why AF will never dump the A380 in favor of the next VLA, no matter how much they fuss.
 
IDAWA
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
And...the above statement is an example of why AF will never dump the A380 in favor of the next VLA, no matter how much they fuss.

I think that politics play a large role...after all we are talking about a French-built aircraft being the flagship of the French flag carrier. I see a similar pattern with BA choosing RR-powered aircraft whenever possible, regardless of the proven lower reliability of the latter.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
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zeke
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:10 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

Sounds to me like they are negotiating through the papers for compensation, a leaf out of the Qatar book.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 13):

No, the wing repairs will be done during normal maintenance phases, pulling an aircraft out of service because it hit another does.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
airproxx
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

It already happened, lately with the 77W vs A346. And I'm glad AF chose the right aircraft! Now with almost 60 on the fleet, we cannot really say that AF has a biased fleet planning...

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 10):
And LH running them with no apparent issues like these guys??
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 13):
I wonder if other airlines are having dispatch issues comparable to AF's. Does the 3% figure include time for repair of the cracks or does that issue bump up the figure?

Maybe LH just talks less about it. And I don't see why AF would have more dispatch issue that other airlines. And the article is leaking that EK has the same troubles...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well, a lot of people here seem to find the hunchback of the skies (aka the 747) beautiful, so why not the A380 ?

Come on! You cannot compare a 747 to a 380, aesthetically! Maybe you too need glasses?  
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
ozglobal
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting airproxx (Reply 19):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
I seriously doubt, even though they are a private carrier, that they would forego airbus A380s for more Boeing planes. As you said, that would give a fit to the people inhabiting the Elysée.

It already happened, lately with the 77W vs A346. And I'm glad AF chose the right aircraft! Now with almost 60 on the fleet, we cannot really say that AF has a biased fleet planning...

It amazes me that Americans still think AF makes it purchasing decisions under the control of the Elysee when they were the LAUNCH customer for Boeing for the 77W and have one of the largest 777 fleets in the world!!
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
knoxibus
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:43 am

This is clearly a strategy from AF regarding negotiation on something else.

I recall an article about LH and its 747-8 reliability (can't remember from whom), they said there were getting there quickly, but that it was not yet up to the DR of the A380, close to 99/100%, for which they were very happy.

SIA is buying 5 more of them, so they seem to be happy about it too.

And all in the same while, the A350XWB contract is still under discussion (mainly due to Rolls, i agree).
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:50 am

I always got the impression that the A380 was turning out to be a bit on the large size for AF, they deferred some deliveries and the order is still relatively small.

Maybe they're looking to swap some of their remaining orders for the as yet unsigned A350 order?
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 10):

LH has had several engine changes due to fumes of engine oil in the cabin. The german media did report on that issue.
 
airbazar
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
A French newspaper "Les Echos" published an interesting article about Air France and the A380. The company is not so happy with the current availability of the A380.

Given my recent experience with AF where I didn't fly the A380 and 3 out of 4 flights were late, I'm more inclined to think that the problem is AF and not the A380.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

Yep, that'd be cool. Would not go over very well in Paris perhaps, but this is somewhat legitimate, from a non-av expert perspective (government, media and/or general public).
AF will have to stand strong and consistent and bring on the technical arguments (not all planes are equal and no A plane perfectly substitutes for an B plane, and vice versa), not the commercial / political arguments (which won't be as strong).
After all, they have to become profitable again, so having the airplane that fits them best is a very good technical/economical argument!

Quoting iahmark (Reply 8):
Seems this could be a blessing in disguise for Boeing as it’s the only other choice for a big plane with 4 engines, meaning the B747-8i.

Maybe AF needs to reevaluate its long range fleet strategy and to take a page from the Lufthansa handbook and split it between A380’s and 748’s, makes sense not to have all your eggs in one basket.

I doubt they would go for the 748I. AF has had a small and downsizing fleet of 744s for years now, unlike at LH where the 744 still constitutes the core of the long-haul fleet (together with the A340 of course). The 777 plays that role at AF, not the 744, so there would be some capacity mismatch.

If AF goes for more large B, my bets are on the 777-9X, 777-max (or whatever that derivative will end up being called). I see them not so keen on the A350, as neither them or KL have RR engines, and still have to iron out these A380 issues first with the same company.
The more they wait for the A350, the longer the backlog will be, and the closer B will be to develop that new 777. AF launch customer for it would not surprise me actually, knowing they had an outstanding launch customer experience with the 77W.
I still think there will be additional A380 orders from AF. 10 is a rather small fleet, and quite expensive to maintain as a stand-alone fleet type and train a fairly small group of pilots as a result (despite some commonality with the A330/340). More A380 would help save on these costs. Again, not until A gets their sh-- together and fixes these -big- issues, but possibly in a few years. Would make more sense than a small A380 fleet + a small 748I fleet.
When I doubt... go running!
 
ap305
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:57 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sh-up-dispatch-reliability-376362/

99.3% dispatch reliability for the a380.

[Edited 2012-10-31 09:12:10]
 
olddominion727
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:48 pm

Regarding the cracks and the engine issues (QF), I really hope these are teething issues and not something that's going to cause a crash because EADS and the carriers didn't realize how serious it was--forcing them ALL to be grounded world wide, like what happened with the DC10.
 
mffoda
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 26):

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sh-up-dispatch-reliability-376362/

99.3% dispatch reliability for the a380.

That is major difference between what AF says and the A380 marketing head!   

It wasn't that long ago here on a-net, that the A & B mafia's were arguing over a 10th of a percent point on A320 vs. 737NG dispatch reliability... 
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
brilondon
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 5):
I'm surprised most of the teething problems haven't been worked out by now. The A380 is a beautiful airplane, but one has to wonder if it is just too much airplane. Though I have to imagine people said that about the 747 back in the day. Hopefully the wing crack issue gets solved very soon. I can't imagine it is helping the order book much.
Blue

Yeah, there were problems but the wings were not about to fall off in turbulence.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
musapapaya
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 28):
It wasn't that long ago here on a-net, that the A & B mafia's were arguing over a 10th of a percent point on A320 vs. 737NG dispatch reliability...

And A or B being higher, may I know? lol...
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
ap305
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 28):
That is major difference between what AF says and the A380 marketing head!   

It wasn't that long ago here on a-net, that the A & B mafia's were arguing over a 10th of a percent point on A320 vs. 737NG dispatch reliability... 

I doubt if even a marketing chap would spin about dispatch reliability  . The Bird has its issues but we would have heard a lot more from the other operators if dispatch reliability was too low.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 25):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
How about Air France launches the 777-9X with an order for 20 ? That would go over in Paris about as well as a bad vintage for Dom Perignon.

Yep, that'd be cool. Would not go over very well in Paris perhaps, but this is somewhat legitimate, from a non-av expert perspective (government, media and/or general public).
AF will have to stand strong and consistent and bring on the technical arguments (not all planes are equal and no A plane perfectly substitutes for an B plane, and vice versa), not the commercial / political arguments (which won't be as strong).
After all, they have to become profitable again, so having the airplane that fits them best is a very good technical/economical argument!

Sorry, but I'm going to keep on insisting, NO AIRLINE has shown its fierce independence in aircraft choice from government interference like AF.... PLEASE read below and then the above comments would not be made...

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):


It amazes me that Americans still think AF makes it purchasing decisions under the control of the Elysee when they were the LAUNCH customer for Boeing for the 77W and have one of the largest 777 fleets in the world!!
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:52 pm

But Air France does tow the Elysee line --- its management has even said so

Recent examples --

1) Split 787/A350 orders
2) Inability to move ahead and publicly reveal its corporate overhaul to announce layoff's until after the election.
3) Reversal of comments to terminate overseas service to PPT after government minister step in


But this is nothing to be ashamed of -- politics and business are often interlinked in France especially in high profile industry like AF.

At the end both sides need the support of the other. For instance imagine how the government could destroy AF simply by very conveniently giving into foreign airlines always demanding more slots at ORY and CDG, or by government not working behind the scenes to keep AF public unions pacified.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:27 pm

AF is also partially state owned. And currently it's not just in Paris that it wouldn't go well but across the country (and of course Toulouse), when politicians on all sides are pushing to "buy French".

Quoting airproxx (Reply 19):
Come on! You cannot compare a 747 to a 380, aesthetically! Maybe you too need glasses?

I got glasses thank you. I like the rear of both aircraft, not the front, and the 747 front is uglier. Give me an A340 any day.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mffoda
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
I like the rear of both aircraft

Is it just me... or does this comment ring funny?  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 32):
Sorry, but I'm going to keep on insisting, NO AIRLINE has shown its fierce independence in aircraft choice from government interference like AF.... PLEASE read below and then the above comments would not be made...

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):


It amazes me that Americans still think AF makes it purchasing decisions under the control of the Elysee when they were the LAUNCH customer for Boeing for the 77W and have one of the largest 777 fleets in the world!!

AF was also the first non-US customer and operator of the 727-200 and took delivery of 29. Some years earlier AF was also the first European carrier to order and take delivery of the 707 and eventually had a fleet of 38. AF also took delivery of 53 747s and 31 737s.
 
mffoda
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RE: Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:33 pm

In all fairness to several of the above posts... There were no European (Airbus) equivalents to the 747 & 777 when AF ordered these aircraft. I'm not even sure about the 737? I mostly believe that AF tries to act on its own best interests. Which can be seen through its long standing relationships with Boeing and GE and their vast MRO interests with these companies... Including the 787.

But, to suggest that there is no pressure on AF to buy Airbus products is simply naive. There's been enough published to support this fact... Anyway... I believe the topic was "Air France And The Unavailability Of The A380"  
harder than woodpecker lips...

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