usairways787
Topic Author
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Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:53 am

Before we get into this, this is something that a lot of guys and I work with were discussing. I'd like to point out these were just some points, and opinions we all shared, and it brought me to a lot more questions than answers. I did do a lazy search, and didn't find any conclusive recent topics.

Over the last decade the industry has faced more hurdles, and issues, than ever before. We've seen every single major U.S. Carrier file bankruptcy, consolidate, and cut work force by astronomical amounts. We've seen service standards decline, leadership fall, airlines just all out collapse, which brought me to one major question. Why not re-regulate the industry, and try to avoid much of the predicament we're in? Haven't more airlines come and gone after deregulation than ever before? How many more would it take for it to be seriously considered?

I will say recently things have started to turn around, however...with the recent mergers, acquisitions, reducing frequencies, smaller cities losing service, supersizing it would seem as if airlines are now the monoply, which would contradict the whole entire point of deregulation.

Which brings me to my next question, what would be the pluses of regulation, and what would be the cons? A lot of regulated industries, the railroad for example seem to be doing extremely well with regulation. I as a young employee have heard how much better it was back in the day, how good the benefits were, etc.

Like I said, there were merely opinions, and just breakroom talk, which brought up my curiosities.

US787
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Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
A lot of regulated industries, the railroad for example seem to be doing extremely well with regulation.

Umm . . . Amtrak?

There are actually a lot of similarities. A few really big railroads (UP, BNSF, NS) dominate US traffic. The difference is that they make money doing it.

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
supersizing it would seem as if airlines are now the monoply, which would contradict the whole entire point of deregulation.

If consolidation is the problem, can't that be solved (or couldn't that have been solved) with different antitrust choices by the government rather than reregulation?
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BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
Why not re-regulate the industry, and try to avoid much of the predicament we're in?

It doesn't avoid anything. The industry has never been safer and fares have never been lower.

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
what would be the pluses of regulation,

Gravy train for airline employees and stockholders.

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
and what would be the cons?

For passengers, basically everything would get worse.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
If consolidation is the problem,

It appears that consolidation is actually part of the solution rather than the problem.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
DCA2011
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:07 am

I'd suspect the biggest con would be the sheer politics of trying to get the airlines re-regulated. Any congressman who suggested it would be decried as a socialist, and frankly it would be political suicide.   
Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
It appears that consolidation is actually part of the solution rather than the problem.

. . . if the sole goal is for airlines to make money. But the talk of re-regulation presupposes that other things, like service to smaller markets, affordable fares or safety are also important, does it not?
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silentbob
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
For passengers, basically everything would get worse.

No, fares would go up and that's just about all that would be a negative. Carriers would have to compete on service instead of just trying to be cheaper.
 
BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
like service to smaller markets

Somebody's going to have to pay for that.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
affordable fares or safety

Safety has gotten higher and fares have gotten lower since deregulation.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
Why not re-regulate the industry, and try to avoid much of the predicament we're in?

I know we're supposed to keep politics out of this forum, but your entire topic is about politics, so let me put it this way: To re-regulate the industry would be to accept that government bureaucrats know more about the airline industry than those actually in the airline industry.

If you believe "government knows better" than you would be for re-regulation. I'm of the opinion that practically everything the Federal government of the USA gets involved in ends up much worse than if they had just stayed out of it to begin with.
 
BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 5):
Carriers would have to compete on service instead of just trying to be cheaper.

Passengers have been pretty clear that they are interested in price rather than service for coach class travel. They want cheap, airlines haven't cut service just because they felt like it. Hell, the legacies held out so long that it almost killed them, but now their service levels are virtually identical to airlines like Southwest. Coach class travel has become like gasoline.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Mcoov
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
A lot of regulated industries, the railroad for example seem to be doing extremely well with regulation.

The railroads are not regulated, and have not been since 1980. In fact, regulation proved detrimental to the railroad industry between 1953 and 1980, as it prevented them from responding to changes in transport economics, such as the rise of the airlines, trucks, and the automobile. There are several books and films that cover this, mostly focusing on the Penn Central system and the creation of Amtrak in 1971 and Conrail in 1976.
 
cmf
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
To re-regulate the industry would be to accept that government bureaucrats know more about the airline industry than those actually in the airline industry.

A very narrow-minded point of view. Any "government bureaucrat" would naturally be part of the airline industry. The main difference is that their goal would not be to maximize benefits for an individual airline.

Even so, no I do not want the return of regulation.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
If you believe "government knows better" than you would be for re-regulation. I'm of the opinion that practically everything the Federal government of the USA gets involved in ends up much worse than if they had just stayed out of it to begin with.

As the OP states the US airline industry has not shown to be very adept and the government have had to go in and clean up after them over and over again.

There was a time when industries had practically free rain and it wasn't very successful. Government involvement is the result of those failures. If we stopped preventing government involvement on ideology we would also see it much more efficient and be able to have a proper balance between industry and public interest.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Safety has gotten higher and fares have gotten lower since deregulation.

On safety, correlation doesn't indicate causation.

Cars have gotten much safer in the same time period too.
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PPVRA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:37 pm

What is needed is more deregulation. Deregulation of airports (along with their privatization), and ATC. Seems like the rest of the world is already on this path.

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
I will say recently things have started to turn around, however...with the recent mergers, acquisitions, reducing frequencies, smaller cities losing service, supersizing it would seem as if airlines are now the monoply, which would contradict the whole entire point of deregulation.

There is lots and lots of competition. Just because M&As are happening doesn't mean this isn't a highly competitive industry. There was too much competition, and now we have a more balanced scenario which is rebalancing the bargaining power between consumers (the pax) and producers (the airlines). This was out of wack, with consumers having too much power, which is partly why airlines were doing so poorly.

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
A lot of regulated industries, the railroad for example seem to be doing extremely well with regulation.

Railroads were deregulated along with the airlines. They were nearly all bankrupt before they were deregulated. Pax railroads did not survive regulation. I'd say railroads are far less regulated than airlines now, actually, because they own and operate their own infrastructure, unlike the airlines.

[Edited 2012-11-05 05:42:20]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
eaglepower83
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:00 pm

Slightly off topic;
It's probably in our interest to not re-regulate the industry unless there's some sort of emergency, and I don't think we're there just yet. Who knows, maybe the airlines will actually figure this out on their own?
It's no secret this industry is incredibly important to our world-commerce, and until that's under threat (I don't see it yet), then a deregulated industry is probably best.

But on the topic of "everything government touches is terrible" has always puzzled me.
It's my (possibly young, naieve idealist point of view) that government is representative of US.
We have a gift from our founding fathers that we ARE the government and have an opportunity to tailor it to our needs.
It just seems like we elect maybe not the best people for the job.
And if we could possibly elect the appropriate leades (whoever that may be), maybe they could appoint the properly skilled private citizens for the proper beaureau.
Example being an actual experienced emergency responder to head FEMA, or perhapse an airline ops exectutive to head the Airline industry if we ever venture down the road of regulation again.

Sincere apologies if this post is TOO politicial and I urge the moderators to do with it as they see fit.

-JB
 
Aither
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:08 pm

Chinese & Indian airlines are not doing better in their heavily regulated markets.

The industry has lost tons of money trying to figure out how to fight LCCs or new world carriers (middle east). Not sure all the answers were correct (Eg. increasing service/frequencies at any cost to grab a few points of market shares).

After these massive disruptions change is coming. But change is costly. Maybe now we are seeing the end of the tunnel with network carriers now focusing on the feeding, LCCs focusing on the regional point to point while on the long haul huge consolidations are going on, with mega airlines having more balanced operations per big regions of the world.
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FlyPeoria
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 13):
We have a gift from our founding fathers that we ARE the government and have an opportunity to tailor it to our needs.

If we are the government, then we govern ourselves without Washington's involvement.

Railroad and airline deregulation are similar in that they gave transportation providers pricing power. Prior to the October 1980 Staggers Act, railroads had to go to the Interstate Commerce Commission for rate changes. The federal agency generally kept rates equalized between origin and destination regardless whether shipments moved in single line (one railroad) or interline (multiple railroads).

It's my understanding that the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) pretty much had to same power over airline fares. Airlines interlined. i. e. reservationists created joint fares for passengers. Deregulation, code-sharing and frequent flyer programs allowed airlines to keep passengers from origin to destination.

In both cases, economies of scale was used to create more efficiency. Railroads used their pricing power to reduce interchange points. Airlines (at least) tend to using pricing to route passengers through hubs and discourage short-hauls.

[Edited 2012-11-05 06:29:23]

[Edited 2012-11-05 06:30:18]
 
HPRamper
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
It doesn't avoid anything. The industry has never been safer and fares have never been lower.

Fares have been on the rise for years. Maybe we aren't at regulation levels, but I could fly transcon round trip for 250 bucks on a legacy carrier back in oh, 2003 or 2004. That has risen a lot faster than inflation. Now you are doing well to find a ticket for half that distance for the same price.
 
JONC777
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):

Hmmm there still out there friend paid $136 ow from bdl to sfo for travel in december, and thats after taxes.
 
N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
A very narrow-minded point of view. Any "government bureaucrat" would naturally be part of the airline industry. The main difference is that their goal would not be to maximize benefits for an individual airline.

No, a very realistic point of view. The bureaucrats that will be churning out thousands of pages of regulations, and the bureaucrats that will be applying these regulations will not be a part of the airline industry. They'll just be lawyers and office workers that could just as easily be regulating milk production.

The election tomorrow is really all about this in a broad sense. We have one candidate whose position is that government should play more of a role in the lives of the citizens and the operations of businesses and another candidate whose position is the opposite.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):

As the OP states the US airline industry has not shown to be very adept and the government have had to go in and clean up after them over and over again.

The government hasn't had to go in at all. The government chose to go in. If the government had not, the thinning of the herd would have occurred sooner and more naturally.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 13):

But on the topic of "everything government touches is terrible" has always puzzled me.
It's my (possibly young, naieve idealist point of view) that government is representative of US.
We have a gift from our founding fathers that we ARE the government and have an opportunity to tailor it to our needs.
It just seems like we elect maybe not the best people for the job.
And if we could possibly elect the appropriate leades (whoever that may be), maybe they could appoint the properly skilled private citizens for the proper beaureau.
Example being an actual experienced emergency responder to head FEMA, o

Well, I don't know how old you are and I don't want to make this personal at all.  

You're right - we don't elect the best people, primarily because the best people wouldn't want to subject themselves to the lies / smears / etc that go along with any campaign. Nobody in their right mind would want to go through all that!  

So what we're left with is not at all the cream of the crop as our elected officials, and then they appoint their cronies to head the various agencies in the bureaucracy who then hire people with no particular expertise in the agency's area to implement the regulations formulated by the higher ups.

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):

If we are the government, then we govern ourselves without Washington's involvement.

Agree 1000000%
 
LH707330
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:25 pm

It might be argued that the US airline industry still has too much government interference. I think safety regs are a good thing, but as far as market forces go, the government should let it be. If we let all the legacy dinosaurs implode in the early 2000s after their market-share binge of the 90s and be replaced by leaner carriers, we'd probably be paying lower fares today. Creative destruction (and good bankruptcy laws) is one of the reasons the US has such a dynamic economy, let's not get rid of it....
 
cmf
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
No, a very realistic point of view. The bureaucrats that will be churning out thousands of pages of regulations, and the bureaucrats that will be applying these regulations will not be a part of the airline industry. They'll just be lawyers and office workers that could just as easily be regulating milk production.

You get the government you create. Allow them to be efficient and they will.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
The election tomorrow is really all about this in a broad sense. We have one candidate whose position is that government should play more of a role in the lives of the citizens and the operations of businesses and another candidate whose position is the opposite.

Only because too many people are binary. Reality is that there is a large area inbetween.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
The government hasn't had to go in at all. The government chose to go in. If the government had not, the thinning of the herd would have occurred sooner and more naturally.

Right, who had to take over all the pensions?

[Edited 2012-11-05 11:27:36]
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):
Fares have been on the rise for years. Maybe we aren't at regulation levels, but I could fly transcon round trip for 250 bucks on a legacy carrier back in oh, 2003 or 2004. That has risen a lot faster than inflation. Now you are doing well to find a ticket for half that distance for the same price.

As mentioned, it's due to oil prices. And the inflation rate does not include oil prices anymore (nor food or other basic materials).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
On safety, correlation doesn't indicate causation.

No, but it means you can't play the "increase regulation, increase safety" card.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):
Maybe we aren't at regulation levels, but I could fly transcon round trip for 250 bucks on a legacy carrier back in oh, 2003 or 2004.

...and the airline lost money on it. So do you expect taxpayers to subsidize your cheap airfares? Especially considering those who also clamor for better service, despite the fact that few passengers seem willing to pay for it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
but it means you can't play the "increase regulation, increase safety" card.

Why not? Certainly, in other industries, we have seen it.

You can't argue with a straight face that things like electronic stability control in cars decrease safety.
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N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 19):
as far as market forces go, the government should let it be. If we let all the legacy dinosaurs implode in the early 2000s after their market-share binge of the 90s and be replaced by leaner carriers, we'd probably be paying lower fares today. Creative destruction (and good bankruptcy laws) is one of the reasons the US has such a dynamic economy, let's not get rid of it....

Yep.

Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
You get the government you create. Alloow them to be efficient and they will.

We don't "allow" the Federal government to be anything. The Federal government has become this entity that operates by its own rules and isn't accountable to anybody (not even itself).

Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
Right, who had to take over all the pensions?

Nobody "had" to do anything.

I understand your point of view. I just don't happen to agree with it.
 
apodino
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:12 pm

I think part of the problem is that the airlines need to do a better job of educating the public on the true cost of transporting them. I think the public has a right to know how the airlines keep costs down and if they are cutting corners on safety with outsourcing and all that. Of course, they keep this close to the vest, because of PR reasons. I have always believed honesty goes a lot further even if it sounds bad, than trying to cover up the bad.

One thing I would propose though would be an ATC system that functions like Nav Canada does. My proposal would be for some of it to be funded by the FAA, some by the military, with the remainder by the Airlines and NBAA. But instead of the system being run entirely by the FAA, you give Airlines and GA some input into it. Because right now, most of the ATC decisions are not made by the Airlines, or in their interests, and I think if the people who actually used the system are involved in a lot of the input on how it works, the modernization would go a lot quicker because it would be less bureaucratic, and the system would function better overall. Of course, the Unions would fight this tooth and nail, and I suspect democratic politicians would as well.
 
us330
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 5):
No, fares would go up and that's just about all that would be a negative. Carriers would have to compete on service instead of just trying to be cheaper.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Passengers have been pretty clear that they are interested in price rather than service for coach class travel. They want cheap, airlines haven't cut service just because they felt like it

In the U.S., it's pretty clear what the passengers want--cheap fares. Airlines have tried to get pax to pay a premium for better service (remember AA's MRTC?), but have ultimately discontinued it.

Reregulation should only be done if the industry is unable to fulfill its ultimate mission: getting passengers safely from point a to point b. The only instance where I could foresee the govt coming in and deciding to reregulate the airlines is if safety or maintenance standards decrease to such a level where the airlines can demonstrate that the fares they are forced to charge because of the market are unable to cover the cost of necessary maintenance and other safety/security measures.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 16):
Fares have been on the rise for years. Maybe we aren't at regulation levels, but I could fly transcon round trip for 250 bucks on a legacy carrier back in oh, 2003 or 2004. That has risen a lot faster than inflation

Oil prices, and diminished capacity means fewer seats=less supply.
 
cmf
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
We don't "allow" the Federal government to be anything. The Federal government has become this entity that operates by its own rules and isn't accountable to anybody (not even itself).

Pft, that is just excuses for not dealing with the problems there are.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
Nobody "had" to do anything.

Philosophically, maybe. In reality, they had to.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
I understand your point of view. I just don't happen to agree with it.

The question is on what grounds you disagree, Who do you think will take care of all the unemployed people? Or do you suggest they should sleep under bridges and rely on food kitchens?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Why not? Certainly, in other industries, we have seen it.

Safety of the aviation industry has gotten better since deregulation, not worse. How can anyone argue that increased regulation will increase safety? Decreased regulation doesn't mean better safety, but we know that more regulation doesn't lead to better safety.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
You can't argue with a straight face that things like electronic stability control in cars decrease safety.

You should also look at what direction the price of new cars has been going.

Quoting us330 (Reply 26):
The only instance where I could foresee the govt coming in and deciding to reregulate the airlines is if safety or maintenance standards decrease to such a level where the airlines can demonstrate that the fares they are forced to charge because of the market are unable to cover the cost of necessary maintenance and other safety/security measures.

The only thing the government should be regulating is safety. How airlines pay for the mandatory safety measures is their business.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
Pft, that is just excuses for not dealing with the problems there are.

OK, go ahead and write your Congressional Rep and your two Senators and ask them to fix a problem (I'll let you pick which one - there's so many). Or better yet, why don't you go to DC and personally demand that they fix a problem (again, I'll let you pick which one).

I really don't want to come out and say your comment is silly, but....

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
Philosophically, maybe. In reality, they had to.

No, they didn't. But I understand your point of view that the government had to intervene.

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
The question is on what grounds you disagree, Who do you think will take care of all the unemployed people? Or do you suggest they should sleep under bridges and rely on food kitchens?

Let's just leave it at this point OK. Because now you're headed way outside the realm of this forum. People reading our exchange have been presented with sufficient info supporting my point of view, and sufficient info supporting your point of view. We'll let them make up their own minds.  
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:50 pm

How do the lost jobs and lost service factor into this equation? After mergers, airlines often dismantle hubs or substantially cut service. In some instances, local communities are hung out to dry, e.g. what AA did in St. Louis. Are there stipulations to mergers and acquisitions that can protect employees and infrastructure? I am not for re-regulation; however, after recent mega-mergers, it seems the prevailing airlines become garden variety corporations with very little distinguishing one from the other: Put simply, Delta has lost its Southern charm and United is no longer "the friendly skies".
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
How can anyone argue that increased regulation will increase safety?

This isn't a difficult question. The government can impose rules that airlines are unwilling to impose because of how much they cost, exactly like what has happened in the auto industry.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
but we know that more regulation doesn't lead to better safety.

How do we know that?
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zckls04
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Safety of the aviation industry has gotten better since deregulation, not worse. How can anyone argue that increased regulation will increase safety? Decreased regulation doesn't mean better safety, but we know that more regulation doesn't lead to better safety.

As mentioned before, correlation does not imply causation. If all other factors are equal, decreased regulation could mean worse safety, even if in over the last several years another factor has compensated for this (e.g. greater experience in the possible causes of crashes, advanced technology etc).

Sometimes you can have two or more factors effecting changes to a measurable statistic. This is why we do controls in scientific experiments- to ensure we are only examining the effect of one of them.
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BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 30):
How do the lost jobs and lost service factor into this equation?

You don't.

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 30):
In some instances, local communities are hung out to dry, e.g. what AA did in St. Louis.

They weren't hung out to dry. They had services that they could not support. Without high fares due to regulation to subsidize otherwise loss-making flights, they couldn't hang around. If people in St. Louis or anywhere else need to travel so much, airlines will take care of them.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
The government can impose rules that airlines are unwilling to impose because of how much they cost, exactly like what has happened in the auto industry.

But how would these rules actually enhance safety in what is already a very safe industry? And who is willing to pay for it?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 32):
Sometimes you can have two or more factors effecting changes to a measurable statistic. This is why we do controls in scientific experiments- to ensure we are only examining the effect of one of them.

So what evidence is there to indicate that increasing regulation will increase safety? What specific safety enhancements are airlines not implementing due to cost that should be mandated by the government? (And this ignores the fact that for a deregulated industry, airlines are tightly regulated)
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
But how would these rules actually enhance safety in what is already a very safe industry?

Technology could have prevented the OH accident in LEX. A more robust crew rest policy (and/or more experience) might have prevented the 9L accident in BUF. It's rare to read an NTSB aviation accident report and not see recommendations for rulemaking addressed to FAA and/or recommendations to the involved carrier that could also be imposed by FAA via rulemaking.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
So what evidence is there to indicate that increasing regulation will increase safety?

Has TCAS increased safety?
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BMI727
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
It's rare to read an NTSB aviation accident report and not see recommendations for rulemaking addressed to FAA and/or recommendations to the involved carrier that could also be imposed by FAA via rulemaking.

Just because the NTSB wants something doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to do. They're just one voice, but it's also necessary to listen to the voices of those who have to pay for it. Either way, regulators already have the power to implement safety related regulation - they don't need further price controls to do that.

We don't need regulation on prices and routes to be safe.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35):
We don't need regulation on prices and routes to be safe.

I haven't argued otherwise, though reducing frequencies at some busy airports might arguably increase safety. I was simply addressing the point that regulation (in general) cannot enhance safety, which is nonsense.
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gegarrenton
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
I'm of the opinion that practically everything the Federal government of the USA gets involved in ends up much worse than if they had just stayed out of it to begin with.

Amen to that.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 13):
It just seems like we elect maybe not the best people for the job.
And if we could possibly elect the appropriate leades (whoever that may be), maybe they could appoint the properly skilled private citizens for the proper beaureau.

Exactly. And good luck with the second sentence.
 
yeelep
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:14 pm

The whole argument about safety being affected one way or the other by deregulation is silly. The safety aspect of the airlines was never deregulated, its arguably more regulated today than ever before.
 
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mayor
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
You can't argue with a straight face that things like electronic stability control in cars decrease safety.

No, you can't, BUT, I don't believe that this is a government mandated feature, either.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
cmf
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 29):
I really don't want to come out and say your comment is silly, but....

I call a spade a spade. Your comment is silly.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 29):
sufficient info supporting my point of view

You make a statement and then run away. If the statement isn't worth defending, then don't make it.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
So what evidence is there to indicate that increasing regulation will increase safety? What specific safety enhancements are airlines not implementing due to cost that should be mandated by the government? (And this ignores the fact that for a deregulated industry, airlines are tightly regulated)

There may be no evidence at all- I'm merely pointing out the deductive flaws in the text I quoted. It could be that deregulation has been wonderful for safety, but the increase in aviation safety since deregulation is not evidence for it.

Personally, I think the current state of affairs is far better for the consumer than the previous regulated model, since safety is regulated anyway. Price and route regulation just means those living near a major airport are subsidizing those who aren't.
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Polot
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 38):
The whole argument about safety being affected one way or the other by deregulation is silly. The safety aspect of the airlines was never deregulated, its arguably more regulated today than ever before.

   Just because the government regulates things doesn't mean that rules that the airlines don't want will suddenly be implemented. Airline lobbyist won't go away if things were reregulated, in fact they would probably grow.

Quoting mayor (Reply 39):
No, you can't, BUT, I don't believe that this is a government mandated feature, either.

It is required as of the 2012 MY.
 
N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
I call a spade a spade. Your comment is silly.

OK.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
You make a statement and then run away. If the statement isn't worth defending, then don't make it.

No, I'm not running away. I am being exceedingly sensitive to the fact that this is NOT a political forum and the moderators don't take kindly to political battles being fought here. In addition, they don't take kindly to flame bait such as what you posted above. How you got a respect rating of 34 by making such statements as you have in this topic is beyond me.
 
brilondon
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting usairways787 (Thread starter):
I will say recently things have started to turn around, however...with the recent mergers, acquisitions, reducing frequencies, smaller cities losing service, supersizing it would seem as if airlines are now the monoply, which would contradict the whole entire point of deregulation.

Which brings me to my next question, what would be the pluses of regulation, and what would be the cons? A lot of regulated industries, the railroad for example seem to be doing extremely well with regulation. I as a young employee have heard how much better it was back in the day, how good the benefits were, etc.

Like I said, there were merely opinions, and just breakroom talk, which brought up my curiosities.

US787

I f there were to be re-regulation in the industry, I would hazard a guess but you would probably lose your job. There would be no incentive to increase any service or levels of service because the airline would have a monopoly on which ever route you would choose. US, AA, B6, WN and AS may disappear, and you would only be left with a skeleton system with UA and DL serving the entire US with HA serving only Hawaii.

You cited that the railroads seem to be doing extremely well. You could not be more wrong. AMTRAK is losing money hand over fist. There is not one route that even breaks even. The NE Corridor routes don't even break even and they are the most revenue producing routes in the system. If it was not for deregulation, the airlines couldn't make any money either. They would be mandated to serve money losing routes that should be dropped, and there would no competition between the airlines so the fares would be astronomical in order to subsidize the money losing routes.

You want the pluses of deregulation, well uh I don't see much in terms of the consumer point of view, and the workers would be at the mercy of the government. Airlines would shut down rather than to try to make money at the cost of re-regulating the industry.
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N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 44):
You cited that the railroads seem to be doing extremely well. You could not be more wrong. AMTRAK is losing money hand over fist. There is not one route that even breaks even. The NE Corridor routes don't even break even and they are the most revenue producing routes in the system.

Yep good points - and who runs Amtrak? The Federal government!

But I think he might have been referring to the freight railroads: CSX, Norfolk Southern, BNSF....
 
twincessna340a
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Technology could have prevented the OH accident in LEX.

That accident was the result of several human factors failures. Comair was using a bad chart for KLEX, at the hold point the pilots failed to notice the red 26 hold sign, they violated sterile cockpit rule, they failed to notice they were 40* off on line-up, and the tower was understaffed and the controller on duty was performing non ATC tasks at the time. It had also almost happened twice before ('93 & '02), but the tower controllers luckily saw the mistakes. This time it was low IFR and while ASDE-X could have prevented the accident it is a) extremely expensive and b) requires the controller to be paying attention to it. I am originally from LEX, my uncle was supposed to be on that flight and my extended family knew people that were on it so I take this one a little personally.


Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
Pft, that is just excuses for not dealing with the problems there are.

The government has immunity from lawsuits: Gray v. Bell, 712 F.2d 490, 507 (D.C. Cir. 1983)

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Has TCAS increased safety?

Yes. The Bashkirian Airlines/DHL mid-air over Germany wouldn't have happened if both crews used it properly along with the technological advances since then. I use Mode S when I can and find it very helpful.

Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
Allow them to be efficient and they will.

Counter-example: The US Postal Service

Quoting apodino (Reply 25):
if they are cutting corners on safety with outsourcing and all that.

Contract MRO and other mx are subject to the same rules.

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 30):
Delta has lost its Southern charm

For the most part and I am a longtime Delta fan (spare the FA's in the SE at least IMHO despite how Delta management has treated them). They've even alienated people in ATL. As much as it saddens me to see AirTran go, the Southwest presence in ATL will hopefully give Delta the kick in the pants it needs. I say Bring Back the Widget!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 46):
That accident was the result of several human factors failures.

I agree. To be clear, I think the right solution to that crash lies in the human factors failures that you have identified (plus a few more). I was simply making the point that ASDE-X would also have prevented the accident.
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cmf
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 43):
No, I'm not running away. I am being exceedingly sensitive to the fact that this is NOT a political forum

Then you should not have done a political statement to begin with. But when you do it you must accept that it will be discussed. Making a statement and then state it can't be discussed is the equivalent of a hit and run.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 46):
The government has immunity from lawsuits: Gray v. Bell, 712 F.2d 490, 507 (D.C. Cir. 1983)

Which of course has nothing to do with if they are efficient or not.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 46):
Counter-example: The US Postal Service

Please support.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
N62NA
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RE: Reregulation Of The Airline Industry?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
Then you should not have done a political statement to begin with. But when you do it you must accept that it will be discussed. Making a statement and then state it can't be discussed is the equivalent of a hit and run.

OK, my mistake, sorry.

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