G500
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Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:35 pm

DL operates 7 daily 757 flights between JFK and LAX... As of March 2013, one of those flights will be upgraded to 767-300, and 2 months later (June2013) 3 more flights will be upgraded to 767... For a total of 4 767 flts and 3 757

The 767s will be back on the route for the first time since 2009

I wonder what's going on with JFK-SFO?

Delta Air Lines to Offer Full Flat-bed in BusinessElite on Transcontinental Flights

[Edited 2012-11-05 09:33:49 by SA7700]
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:37 pm

Any DL 747s plying btwn East-West routes?
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:39 pm

I guess this is because DL has so much slack in the 767 fleet and when they finish the interior refit, they'll have even more planes.
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LAXintl
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Gotta compete against AA and UA.
Both will have new lie-flat premium products on the route in 2013.

Though DL pumping more economy seats in the market is likely to hurt its already trailing yields further.
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panamair
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:43 pm

They are introducing a flat-bed product on all JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA transcons starting March 2013. The 767s will be a start as the 757s get flat-bed upgrades.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1757

The 75Es will be reconfigured and getting 16 flat-bed 2-2 BE seats up front and 44 Economy Comfort seats.
 
G500
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Here's another link. "Delta full flat beds on business elite on transcontinental flights"

Looks like Delta is going for the kill on the most important domestic route in the U.S

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...ir-lines-offer-full-160400051.html
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Though DL pumping more economy seats in the market is likely to hurt its already trailing yields further.

Nope, not really. Last summer there were 8x daily 75Es for a total of (158*8) = 1264 Y seats per day each direction.
Next summer, there will be 7x daily (4x 763 + 3x 75E) for a total of 1274Y seats, an increase of just 10 seats a day in each direction.

And once the 75Es have been redone, they will have 6 fewer Y seats per plane than today, and if they keep the 4x 767 and 3x 75E on JFK-LAX, they will actually have fewer seats per day in each direction - 1256 (new) vs 1264 (last summer)

[Edited 2012-11-05 08:50:59]
 
deltalaw
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Improving the Business Elite product on an extremely competitive route...just trying to keep up with AA/UA
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
"Delta full flat beds on business elite on transcontinental flights"

Will be much loved by the businessmen and celebrities on this route....   
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
maddogjt8d
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:23 pm

Anyone know where the 75E mods are getting done and the estimated timeline?
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
Looks like Delta is going for the kill on the most important domestic route in the U.S

Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.
 
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 10):
Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.

I think that DL is trying to make VX not bleed money, but hemorrhage it with these product upgrades.

DL wants to be "New York's Airline", pure and simple - and this means competing hard on transcons.
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N62NA
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Gotta compete against AA and UA.

Wow, just as AA is getting ready to go all narrowbody on JFK-LAX.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Looks like the 75Es will be getting full flat beds in J in a 2-2 layout. I'm not sure if the Thompson Vantage will fit in such a layout. One model of seat that would fit would be the B/E Aerospace Diamond, similar to what is on UA's PMCO 752s. Any DL insiders here know the exact model of seat?
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deltairlines
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 10):

Who exactly do you think they will kill on the route........I dont see it being UA or AA so you have to wonder.

Considering Delta is the second largest airline (in terms of seats and flights) on both LAX and SFO (AA has 9x LAX, DL 7x, UA 6x; UA has 7x SFO, DL 6x, AA 5x) it's a decent show of force. Heck, next summer Delta is the airline offering the most seats on JFK-SFO (UA is actually in third with their smaller p.s. 757s).

Also keep in mind that on the 767 flights, Delta will be the only airline with a business class product with direct aisle access at each seat (AA only gets you that in F; UA doesn't at all).
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:08 pm

One surprise I see is that DL is going from 3 to 5 daily SEA-JFK flights and going to be putting a flat seat product on the route whereas AA only has a single daily 737. I guess DL is going to try to takeover that route. SEA-JFK already sees the occasional 767-300ER to allow for fleet rotation because SEA has an ever expanding long haul market with up to 5 long haul 767 flights each day depending on season.
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delimit
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:13 pm

Makes sense for their international connecting pax as well. Arriving into JFK on one of the reconfigured 767s and then transiting onto a 757 was unpleasant.

What seat is going into the 57s? Same as the 67s? I missed the announcement on that. i didn't even realize they had selected a model.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:14 pm

I'm thinking this might also have to do with the fact that JFK-SEA will probably stretch the 75E fleet pretty thiiiin.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 16):
What seat is going into the 57s? Same as the 67s? I missed the announcement on that. i didn't even realize they had selected a model.

I have been wondering that too. Since DL has stated they will be 16 seats a 2-2 layout, I presume they might be B/E Aerospace Diamond like on UA's PMCO 752s. The Thompson Vantage can only fit in an alternating 2-2/1-1 layout on the 757, although up to 5 rows forward of the exits can fit for a total of 16 seats, with 2-2 in odd rows and 1-1 in even rows.

[Edited 2012-11-05 10:26:20]
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G500
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):

AA might be going narrow body on JFK-LAX but that will be an upgrade. Business people will like the A321 better than the old 767-200 I'm afraid
 
N62NA
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 19):
AA might be going narrow body on JFK-LAX but that will be an upgrade. Business people will like the A321 better than the old 767-200 I'm afraid

Yep, definitely. Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.

That's probably a bridge to be crossed when we get there. Will DL prefer to send these aircraft (back) to Europe once the European economy improves? I don't know the answer to that question.
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davescj
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Yep, definitely. Though whether business people (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer a single aisle AA narrowbody on what can be a 6+ hour flight when they could fly an equally "newly upgraded" widebody on DL remains to be seen.

It depends on multiple things, I suspect:

1. Contracts (esp if there is a special negotiated fare).

2. Where are your FFPs at?

3. Timing of flights.

5. Do you prefer a flat bed? (I don't mean to put this last, but to note that many work on the flight).

AA may have a good product with an A321 if they have power, wireless, and AVOD (which DL does not have on theirs). Also, the A321 is a fairly quite ride.

Dave
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G500
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Does anybody think DL will also upgrade JFK-SFO to 767s?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting davescj (Reply 22):

AA may have a good product with an A321 if they have power, wireless, and AVOD (which DL does not have on theirs). Also, the A321 is a fairly quite ride.

Delta will have Power/Wifi and AVOD on its T-con product and does now.....
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davescj
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
Delta will have Power/Wifi and AVOD on its T-con product and does now.....

Sorry, you are of course correct. I was referring to DL not having AVOD on the A321.

Quoting g500 (Reply 23):
Does anybody think DL will also upgrade JFK-SFO to 767s?

I would suspect only if the 767 were used to sub while another plane is being serviced/updated.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
upsmd11
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:06 pm

Is this going to take some of the 767 equipment out of the current markets like DTW-LAX, ATL-LAX, MSP-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-LAS?

I fly ATL-LAX often and always opt for the 767 flight even though the 777 is on this as well. The 777 flight means a 6am departure and the partner and I like the 2 seats by the window vs. the 3 seats on the 777.

JG
 
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CV880
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting upsmd11 (Reply 26):
Is this going to take some of the 767 equipment out of the current markets like DTW-LAX, ATL-LAX, MSP-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-LAS?

The JFK product are international 763ER's and the domestic birds that You are referring to are just that (high density/with AVOD).
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting davescj (Reply 25):
I was referring to DL not having AVOD on the A321.

DL can't have AVOD on the A321 'cause DL doesn't have any A321s!  
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:37 pm

So a net increase of 10 seats from last summer is "flooding the market?" Geez this site really confuses me sometimes. Too many armchair CEOs speaking without knowing the reality of the whole situation
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:57 pm

This makes Delta's product more robust without question, but I'd expect that this could also add some serious strength to the SkyMiles program. Since JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA are all domestic, Elites would qualify for free upgrades. Having a first class product that is on par and/or superior to the competition could help DL leverage some frequent fliers back to the program that have perhaps gone toward UA's P.S. flights or Virgin America's premium cabin. Seems like an all around win-win for the consumer and for Delta.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 30):
Since JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA are all domestic, Elites would qualify for free upgrades

Elite upgrades, with the exception of off-peak flights, are hard to come by on these flights, even as a DM.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting davescj (Reply 25):
I was referring to DL not having AVOD on the A321.

.....they don't have any 321s?

Quoting panamair (Reply 28):

but the 932ERs will have AVOD
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mercure1
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:44 am

How about added cost of operating 767 vs 757?

Clearly both AA(future A321) and UA(now) have cost advantage with lower cost aircraft along with having a nice revenue premium over Delta.

Seems DL is might be headed in wrong direction - increase its route cost, while still having tons of low market economy seats to fill.

Both AA and UA found out not needed to haul around all those low fare economy seats on 767 craft.
 
AirAfreak
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting upsmd11 (Reply 26):

I certainly hope ATL and DTW aren't affected by this change either.... I always opt for the 777 service to/from ATL and the 767's as my second choice. I can't wait until all the 767's have flat-beds so I don't have to sit for 4 hours in a smaller reclining First Class seat!
Do you lead an Intercontinental life?
 
laca773
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 34):

I certainly hope ATL and DTW aren't affected by this change either.... I always opt for the 777 service to/from ATL and the 767's as my second choice. I can't wait until all the 767's have flat-beds so I don't have to sit for 4 hours in a smaller reclining First Class seat!

Awww. Definitely would be a shame for you!

I'm glad to hear DL is stepping it up further. UA's product is hit and miss and mostly miss. AA will have new A321s which will be nice, but unless the senior cabin crew who work JFK transcons, their service will still be in the toilet.
DL has the best catering in the front cabin from what I understand and offer a nice BOB product, albeit, a bit pricey, but better than just having a sandwich to buy, if you're lucky to score one, or some fruit, cheese when they reach you.

It's nice they mention too they're trying to offer a consistent product for those transiting between DL's LAX-SYD and JFK-Trans-Atlantic service.
 
bnatraveler
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
Delta will have Power/Wifi and AVOD on its T-con product and does now.....

Wi-Fi on the International-configured B763s? Not yet.... It seems that they should install Gogo domestic service on those birds too.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 36):

I do believe i saw something saying they will be getting wifi....
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
bnatraveler
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
I do believe i saw something saying they will be getting wifi....

Yes, the international fleet will all get wifi in 2013, but Ku-band satellite service from Gogo rather than terrestrial CDMA2000 Rev B. I hope it isn't as slow as Southwest's Row44 service. I am hoping they install some type of dual service that is both Ku and terrestrial that is activated depending on the ship's location.
 
nwa757boy
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:18 am

I believe the 767 transcon service is temporary until all 75Es are modified. There were will be some product inconsistencies if both 757/767 are kept on the route. The 75Es are going to get Live Satellite TV, the 767s are not. Same with the wifi, the international fleet will be getting it, but does not currently have it. I can see after all 75Es being modified, that some frequencies between LAX and JFK remain 767, perhaps one or two, and the reposition 767 for SEA. In any event I'm excited to see what the lie-flat product will look like on the 757.
 
neveragain
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting davescj (Reply 22):
5. Do you prefer a flat bed? (I don't mean to put this last, but to note that many work on the flight).

I certainly prefer to sleep in a flat bed. Not sure who doesn't.

And if you're trying to say many people don't sleep on the flight but rather work, fair enough. But I'm not sure of any old J products that provide more room to work than the flat beds. They're better products, all around.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 31):
Elite upgrades, with the exception of off-peak flights, are hard to come by on these flights, even as a DM.

Two years ago they certainly weren't. But that would be my last trip on DL on those routes, so I can appreciate if much has changed.
 
nwa757boy
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 40):
Quoting davescj (Reply 22):
5. Do you prefer a flat bed? (I don't mean to put this last, but to note that many work on the flight).

I certainly prefer to sleep in a flat bed. Not sure who doesn't.

And if you're trying to say many people don't sleep on the flight but rather work, fair enough. But I'm not sure of any old J products that provide more room to work than the flat beds. They're better products, all around.

I work a lot of transcons in BE, JFK-LAX/SFO and vice versa, as DL cabin crew, and I can tell you no matter the time of day, I'd say 10-11 out of the 16 pax sleep a majority of the flight.
 
neveragain
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:28 am

Quoting nwa757boy (Reply 41):

I work a lot of transcons in BE, JFK-LAX/SFO and vice versa, as DL cabin crew, and I can tell you no matter the time of day, I'd say 10-11 out of the 16 pax sleep a majority of the flight.

That's been my experience. Same on UA. These people are a lot less important than they would have you think, if they can waste half a day flying without doing anything.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 42):
These people are a lot less important than they would have you think, if they can waste half a day flying without doing anything.

I can't speak for passengers on transcons, but if I have a decent seat for sleeping (like a flat bed), I sometimes prefer to sleep on the plane and stay up and work (with phone and internet access) when I arrive at my destination. YMMV.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
highflier92660
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:01 pm

Just an opinion from a passenger who has flown the LAX-JFK and LAX-ATL Delta routes in business class innumerable times, there is an enormous differential in the level of domestic service on their Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft. A recent Delta flight aboard a JFK-LAX segment had the aura of an international flight; then again the much better dinner and wine selections and presentation may have had something to do with it. I seldom get that feeling on the early morning Delta flights between LAX and Atlanta where we're offered our breakfast omelets.

From what the articles state, doesn't this bring the Boeing 767-300ER business class somewhat equal to that of the Boeing 777-200? The Delta 777LR business suites are fantastic.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting nwa757boy (Reply 39):
I believe the 767 transcon service is temporary until all 75Es are modified

And/or until Europe becomes less of a pit; where else is DL going to put a sudden surplus of 767s?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 14):
Considering Delta is the second largest airline (in terms of seats and flights) on both LAX and SFO (AA has 9x LAX, DL 7x, UA 6x; UA has 7x SFO, DL 6x, AA 5x) it's a decent show of force. Heck, next summer Delta is the airline offering the most seats on JFK-SFO (UA is actually in third with their smaller p.s. 757s).

Also keep in mind that on the 767 flights, Delta will be the only airline with a business class product with direct aisle access at each seat (AA only gets you that in F; UA doesn't at all).

So its all about the amount of seats with you, not yields, etc. I guess based on that philosophy its only a matter of time before we see DL flying the 744 from coast to coast then. We know which airlines commands a premium on the LAX/SFO - JFK routes and have extensive contracts...do you?
 
deltairlines
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 46):
So its all about the amount of seats with you, not yields, etc. I guess based on that philosophy its only a matter of time before we see DL flying the 744 from coast to coast then. We know which airlines commands a premium on the LAX/SFO - JFK routes and have extensive contracts...do you?

Different airlines have very different strategies for the same markets. In some cases, it might be try to fill the plane up with lower yields and make up the revenue by volume than skimming the absolute cream off and it working.

Both might achieve similar PnL results, just very different ways of getting there.

Happens every day in the real world of airline revenue management.
 
klkla
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 46):
We know which airlines commands a premium on the LAX/SFO - JFK routes and have extensive contracts...do you?

Delta has been siphoning accounts from AA and UA for a while on these routes and has the advantage now in the NYC market.

After all three airlines (AA, DL, UA) upgrade their transcon products AA and DL will be the winners. AA because they will be the only airline on the route to offer first class and DL over UA because they will have an equal hard product but better soft product. Long term I see UA retreating to EWR to a greater extent in the future.
 
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CV880
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RE: Delta Goes Wide-body On JFK-LAX Again

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 34):
I certainly hope ATL and DTW aren't affected by this change either.... I always opt for the 777 service to/from ATL and the 767's as my second choice. I can't wait until all the 767's have flat-beds so I don't have to sit for 4 hours in a smaller reclining First Class seat!

I don't think that You'll see flat beds on the domestic 763's, which is what most of the ATL/DTW - West Coast flights are, unless You get a reposition aircraft like DL does ATL-SFO where the aircraft swap is done with the inbound NRT-SFO aircraft. If DL is going to reallocate international configured ER's to the JFK-LAX market, somewhere else in the system will have a pullback or downgauge in service next summer unless those aircraft are replaced.